Corrupted, Feedback, Frustration.

[Izzy]

Preface: I had my bard out for a loresinging party on some 900-odd gems or so, all in jars. I wrote a short script to run through jars and empty them into my to-be-purified container so i could just hit my purify script and go. I did know that I went past the item limit, but of course it wasn't with malicious intent. I just didn't feel like re-jarring 500 gems to be legit. So I forget about the item limit as my script runs for a couple hours, and log off. Next day I try to log in..and the rest should be explained in my email interactions with Samcras.

This is all a copy/paste of my last gmail to him, so I reformatted some of the extra >, spacing, etc but I didn't remove any text.



At 02:11 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:

Attempting to contact the game
server...
Successfully connected to the game.
Please wait for connection to game server.
Welcome to GemStone IV (R) v5.10
Copyright 2009 Simutronics Corp.
All Rights Reserved

******************************
***********************************
Your GemStone III character has been converted over
to GemStone IV stats and skills.

Thank you for joining us in GemStone IV! 5000

additional experience points have been applied to your character as
a gesture of our appreciation and you have been levele up accordingly.
************************************************** ***************
[Purgatory]



You are in Purgatory. For more information, type HELP.

Obvious exits: none

>help

You have been sent to this room because this character file is
corrupted. If this character was previously an established
character, please send an e-mail to
GSFeedback@simutronics.com
providing the account name, character name previous to corruption and
additional details about the character (i.e. last time played, activities
character was involved in, etc). If the character was not
established, please delete the character upon the website using the
"Delete a Character" option from the "Go Play"
section of the website. We apologize for any inconvenience and
thank you for your cooperation.

Account: MINE
Character: Guileson, 61 bard
Last played: 12-Apr-2009 around 1 or 2 AM
Activities: loresinging to gems in illistim at a shimmarglin table.

The only oddity I can think of is that I deleted the other character on
the account.


I just sent you a similar email, but I just had an epiphany. I
unloaded all my gem jars so I could loresing all of them...which was
something like 1000 gems. It's possible that it is because he's
over the max item limit that he's coming back as corrupt.


First response:


---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: gsfeedback gsfeedback@simutronics.com
Date: Apr 14, 2009 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Purgatory?
To: ME

That's exactly what happened. That many items guarantees corruption
and can actually crash the game. We're working to get the character
reset, but I don't have an eta from IT yet on when the restore listing
will be ready to check.

GameMaster Samcras

Senior Feedback


Me:


At 07:41 AM 4/17/2009, you wrote:

Any news on this? It has been 5 days now.

Also, I'm sure you're already working on it but it's probably a good idea to not allow someone to empty a jar if it will put them over the item limit.


2nd Response:


On Apr 17, 2009 7:44pm, gsfeedback <gsfeedback@simutronics.com> wrote:

No, the restore has to come from IT which is aware of the issue, but the backup facilities are offsite. That means those have to be physically retrieved from offsite for reload, brought here, the file loaded from tape, that file checked for faults (and if you have 1000+ items that's a fault) then reloaded to the game.

You're right, there should probably be a check on jars, there already is on just about everything else, but I'm not sure anyone considered that someone would do something like this. I'll put that in as something that should be blocked in the future, but with 2 million lines of code, finding every such possibility ahead of time is impossible. You are also the first person in the roughly 20 years GemStone has been running to do this particular thing. As soon as this gets in, I'll work to get your character reset, but that there is an item limit is well known. The exact number may not be but it's no where near what you managed to do.

Respectfully,
GameMaster Samcras

Senior Feedback


Me:


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <ME>
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: Purgatory?
To: gsfeedback <gsfeedback@simutronics.com>


Thank you for the update, Samcras.

However, I would like to express a certain amount of disappointment in the handling of this issue as a whole.

First and foremost, I can't help but sense a rather standoffish tone from your emails. Frankly, it seems as though you think that I was trying to "cheat the system," which I was absolutely not doing. I of course do know that there is a maximum item limit, however I so rarely reach it that I don't think about it most of the time. Even in this situation, it wasn't even until a day later that I thought of it and that it might have been the culprit for the corruption. I simply needed to remove gems from jars so that I could sing to them, so I created a simple script to empty them all, not taking into consideration that it would put me over the limit. There wasn't even an issue until I logged off. At no point was I scheming to crash the game or corrupt my character.

Second, I work for the technology team at a highly customer-service centered software company as well. As such, I know that if my team waited more than a day or two, (much less an entire week), to provide resolution for a paying customer, quite simply we would no longer have them as a client (we also have an offsite backup system). Furthermore, making excuses is rather poor form. A simple "we are aware of the issue, and are working our best to resolve it" would have sufficed. Instead I receive an accusatory email laced with excuses and blame. I never claimed you should already have had such a safeguard in place, nor that you should search through "2 million lines of code" to discover every potential loophole. I only suggested that it as an improvement, and should probably be considered from this point on. Of course I know that every issue cannot be predicted nor prevented. And yes, I may be the first person in "20 years of GemStone" to do this; it has only been possible for the last year or two considering the age of the jars themselves. Please do not presume that I expect perfection from every aspect of your system. I have been a paying customer for the better part of a decade, I have watch the game change a great deal. This is the first time that I've had any significant interaction with the Feedback team, and I can't say that I am happy with the results. Even as such, I hope to be back in game soon. Thanks for your time.

Respectfully (because apparently signing this way allows me to use an accusatory tone),

Trevor
Loyal paying customer of 10 years.


Me:


From: <ME>
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:01 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Purgatory?
To: gsfeedback <gsfeedback@simutronics.com>
It is now day 11 since the incident and I haven't even received an update in nearly a week. I can't express my frustration and disappointment any further than I already have.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not sure that tone was the best plan. I doubt it was Samcras who was being the dick there.

At the same time? Damn, that sucks.

[Izzy]

I'm not sure that tone was the best plan. I doubt it was Samcras who was being the dick there.

At the same time? Damn, that sucks.

Point taken. Clearly I'm frustrated, but as I said in my response: I got an overwhelming sense of him trying to point the blame at me and make excuses, which is what really got me going.

And what do you mean by at the same time?

[Khariz]

Wow, what a clusterfuck.

[ElvenFury]

Holy fucking QQ fest. Change your fucking tampons and grow the fuck up. ... I seriously am dumbfounded.

QQ?

[Khariz]

You're dumbfounded people decide to stop paying for something that's broken?
That's not QQing.
That's choosing not to continue to do something dumb.

That.

Edit: Hehe, sorry Fury, I wanted to match your wittiness and failed a little.

[BriarFox]

That's a mess. Also, Samcras ("sarcasm") is an asshat. I posted some emails I exchanged with him in the "You Want Annoying Emeradan?" thread a few ago.

[yesicj]

I think the "at the same time" was meant along the lines of "having said that."

[Izzy]

QQ?

Here's the difference. I'm complaining about a complete failure (in my opinion) in customer service, not because my character isn't uber exceptionally pwnage anymore. They (the sorcs) are crying because the game isn't exactly how THEY want it to be. My motives for complaint aren't targeted in any way, shape, or form at gemstone the game, nor any of the mechanics. Ok, this is partially untrue, it would've been nice if this type of corruption wasn't possible in the first place, BUT I did make a non-accusatory suggestion that they should possible look into this issue at some point instead of crying and saying they should have seen this before hand. Then Samcras responds defensively with what I interpreted as excuses.

[Izzy]

I think the "at the same time" was meant along the lines of "having said that."

Oh. Duh. Thx4translating.

[Allereli]

Here's the difference. I'm complaining about a complete failure (in my opinion) in customer service, not because my character isn't uber exceptionally pwnage anymore. They (the sorcs) are crying because the game isn't exactly how THEY want it to be. My motives for complaint aren't targeted in any way, shape, or form at gemstone the game, nor any of the mechanics. Ok, this is partially untrue, it would've been nice if this type of corruption wasn't possible in the first place, BUT I did make a non-accusatory suggestion that they should possible look into this issue at some point instead of crying and saying they should have seen this before hand. Then Samcras responds defensively with what I interpreted as excuses.

did you not know about the item number corruption problem before you dumped all your gems out? YOU should have seen it beforehand.

have you every tried any of the systems I complained about?

[Asha]

They (the sorcs) are crying because the game isn't exactly how THEY want it to be..

You seriously do not have clue what you're talking about.
You've either fabricated that out of thin air or your comprehension skills are fucking zero.
I hope your issue gets put on the back burner due to your attitude in your feedback e-mails. Then you may have some idea of the frustration the sorcerer profession has been enduring.

[StrayRogue]

lol @ sorc frustration. Must be so hard being the number one killing machine, 1v1 and group in the game...

Now please, you've infected these boards enough with your sorcwhining. Half the officials are already off-limits because of it. Confine it to a single thread or. Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

Izzy, that's a shitty thing to happen. I personally didn't know about the item limit. However, reading the emails he sent to you, I didn't really think he was being condescending. What I do find offensive though is the 11 fucking day wait.

[Izzy]

did you not know about the item number corruption problem before you dumped all your gems out? YOU should have seen it beforehand.

have you every tried any of the systems I complained about?

I didn't know it actually corrupted anything, I just knew that there was supposed to be a hard-capped limit. I also assumed that the jars would stop emptying if I reached said limit, so I didn't bother to check until after all the jars were empty how many gems I had. Like I said, at that point I didn't see any immediate need to go back and re-jar those gems because from what I could tell, having 900 gems on my person didn't have any (immediate) ill effect. I absolutely agree that I have a large amount of responsibility in this, but again it's not the actual corruption that has me frustrated. It's the subsequent lack of reconciliation.

Yes, I tried alchemy. I hated it, and I stopped. I didn't quit the game. I don't even have any guild skills on 2 of my 3 main characters at the moment. Still not quitting because of that. I've played squares that take 4x as long to kill something as sorcs, didn't quit because of that. Sure, I've taken breaks; all of which have been because I needed a change of scenery, not because I'm not getting exactly what I want from what is already arguably the most customizable game I've ever played.

[Allereli]

I didn't know it actually corrupted anything, I just knew that there was supposed to be a hard-capped limit. I also assumed that the jars would stop emptying if I reached said limit, so I didn't bother to check until after all the jars were empty how many gems I had. Like I said, at that point I didn't see any immediate need to go back and re-jar those gems because from what I could tell, having 900 gems on my person didn't have any (immediate) ill effect. I absolutely agree that I have a large amount of responsibility in this, but again it's not the actual corruption that has me frustrated. It's the subsequent lack of reconciliation.

Yes, I tried alchemy. I hated it, and I stopped. I didn't quit the game. I don't even have any guild skills on 2 of my 3 main characters at the moment. Still not quitting because of that. I've played squares that take 4x as long to kill something as sorcs, didn't quit because of that. Sure, I've taken breaks; all of which have been because I needed a change of scenery, not because I'm not getting exactly what I want from what is already arguably the most customizable game I've ever played.

And why did you think there was a limit? If you enjoy the tedium, then stay, most of my closest friends are. I've posted clearly why I play and why I'm leaving, and why I would come back.

[DoctorUnne]

"You are also the first person in the roughly 20 years GemStone has been running to do this particular thing."

Haha wow if I heard this I'd be pretty damn proud. However, that does really suck. I also know there's an item limit but I could have totally seen myself emptying all my gem jars without thinking of that before you brought it up.

I definitely understand how angry you are, and while I don't think Samcras was being an ass in his emails, I don't think he was being sensitive at all to how angry you were, which is bad customer service.

Having said that, you gotta remember that you're totally at their mercy in terms of getting your character back and no matter how mad you are the best thing you can do for yourself is swallow your pride, send a conciliatory email to them apologizing for your earlier tone and just expressing your frustration and concern and hope that he'll feel bad for you and go out of his way to rectify the situation. Accusing him of bad customer service is going to make you feel better by venting but it's not going to make him more likely to empathize with your situation and do everything he can to help you quickly.

Once your character is restored and you have leverage back, then say how you really feel, although keep in mind you may require his help again someday...

[g++]

My inactive account has 2 characters logged off with around 200 full gem jars....would be awsome to log them on and empty all the jars and log off to see what happened. Not quite awsome enough to pay to re-activate though.

[Warriorbird]

All I meant with the 'on the other hand' was... your situation sucks.

Knowing what I do about the process I imagine Samcras was just being official.

You're likely waiting on somebody completely not him.

[Rolton-Sammich]

First and foremost, I can't help but sense a rather standoffish tone from your emails. Frankly, it seems as though you think that I was trying to "cheat the system," which I was absolutely not doing. [...] At no point was I scheming to crash the game or corrupt my character.

:wtf: I don't see this at all.

[DaCapn]

That's a long time to wait but here's what I see:

- You know there's an item limit (~500, right?).
- You exceeded it. Apparently knowingly according to the pretext in your initial post.
- (I think) You know that this can result in character corruption. (This is not a useful outcome so obviously you wouldn't be intending to do so).

- He didn't have much of a bedside manner and was quite frank.
- He (rightfully) told you that it was your fault that you exceeded the item limit. (After all, you were the one emptying the jars).
- He explained to you why it is taking some extra time.
- He in no way implied that you were trying to "cheat the system."

- You interpret his stating that it is clearly your fault as him accusing you of intentionally doing so for malicious purposes.
- You mention the gem jar safeguard which has a hint of farming the blame off on them.
- You get irritated with the fact that he told you why it is taking extra time (excuses) but you REQUESTED an update.
- You presume to know how long it SHOULD take to resolve the issue.
- You were rude. But you pay them, so you're allowed to shit on them, right?

It's a rather long wait but I know people have other characters, right? It's not like it was account corruption, was it? Couldn't you still use a different character?

Plus it's not like your water isn't running. You can't log into a game with your character. They may decide to give you a credit towards your next bill to compensate for your frustrations but I doubt that will come based on your follow-up.

[Rolton-Sammich]

:yeahthat:

[Izzy]

That's a long time to wait but here's what I see:

- You know there's an item limit (~500, right?). Yes, I addressed this.
- You exceeded it. Apparently knowingly according to the pretext in your initial post. Yep, I addressed this.
- (I think) You know that this can result in character corruption. (This is not a useful outcome so obviously you wouldn't be intending to do so). No, I wasn't aware that corruption would ensue. Other than in hindsight, at least. NOW it's fairly obvious. :P

- He didn't have much of a bedside manner and was quite frank. Probably a large part of why I interpreted his email the way I did.
- He (rightfully) told you that it was your fault that you exceeded the item limit. (After all, you were the one emptying the jars). Yep, I also admitted fault.
- He explained to you why it is taking some extra time.
- He in no way implied that you were trying to "cheat the system." I don't agree, but again I'm clearly reading his tone differently than most it seems.

- You interpret his stating that it is clearly your fault as him accusing you of intentionally doing so for malicious purposes.
- You mention the gem jar safeguard which has a hint of farming the blame off on them. Really? I though I avoided that fairly well by saying "I'm sure you're already all over it, but just in case it would probably be a good idea to prevent it from now on," and by avoiding the "you should already have thought of this" approach.
- You get irritated with the fact that he told you why it is taking extra time (excuses) but you REQUESTED an update.
- You presume to know how long it SHOULD take to resolve the issue.
- You were rude. But you pay them, so you're allowed to shit on them, right? You and I apparently don't have the same view of customer service. I believe I have a fairly decent grasp on it considering (as mentioned in my email) that I work for a software company that deals with lots of customers every day. With that experience, I deemed his response inappropriate, as laid out in my response.

It's a rather long wait but I know people have other characters, right? It's not like it was account corruption, was it? Couldn't you still use a different character? I do have 3 other accounts.

Plus it's not like your water isn't running. You can't log into a game with your character. They may decide to give you a credit towards your next bill to compensate for your frustrations but I doubt that will come based on your follow-up. I'm not worried about it either way, it's not the money nor the lack of playability that I have an issue with. But I think I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point :P

Added a few responses in bold to avoid multi-quoting, cuz I suck at it.

[Methais]

I think part of feedback's problem is the name Samcras just oozes with douchebaggery, even if he's a nice guy.

[g++]

What software company do you work for? Most of them outsourced their customer service already. I cant wait till simu does its going to be hilarious seeing the customer service responses. If I was him I would just throw your request at the bottom of the pile.

Gamemasters arent really customer service in the typical sense because they police and placate the customers at the same time. While your actions were a mistake they were probarbly more disruptive to simu's customer service team then 300 michaelous's and really I think they are being pretty nice considering their going to have to recover your character from a single file off a tape they will be paying the shipping on. All and all it will prolly cost them a couple hundred bucks recovering your 1's and 0's.

[Methais]

While your actions were a mistake they were probarbly more disruptive to simu's customer service team then 300 michaelous's and really I think they are being pretty nice considering their probarbly going to have to recover your character from a single file off a tape they will be paying the shipping on.

They should have coded in a safeguard then when they released the jars. They apparently didn't do much testing with them.

[g++]

They should have coded in a safeguard then when they released the jars. They apparently didn't do much testing with them.


True, although the OP basically said he knew having that many items on him could cause corruption because we were all warned. I mean I havent even played in 6 months and I even remember seeing the warnings about too many items causing serious problems, but I guess trusting the user to do anything aside from fuck things up is rule number one in design. I would not be suprised if simus response is to lock all jars and make them sellable at content value or something similiarly heavy handed either though. If you could really cause a system over flow with these jars they will likely take steps to remove them.

[crb]

God damnit Izzy, its like every day another QQ thread from you bitching about how your character got corrupted again. Stop with the bitching. We don't want to hear you QQ about a stupid bard and a sack full of gems. Its just a game, stop complaining and reroll.

[Izzy]

God damnit Izzy, its like every day another QQ thread from you bitching about how your character got corrupted again. Stop with the bitching. We don't want to hear you QQ about a stupid bard and a sack full of gems. Its just a game, stop complaining and reroll.

Show me where I bitched about being corrupted? Or about anything related to the actual game? The entirety of my displeasure was directed at feedback/recovery IT.

[Celephais]

Woooooooooosh

[crb]

Show me where I bitched about being corrupted? Or about anything related to the actual game? The entirety of my displeasure was directed at feedback/recovery IT.
I'll show you the back of my hand!

[Fallen]

Looks like a frustrating situation. I would suggest sending another e-mail apologizing for any antagonistic tones/responses you may have had, and explain that the situation has simply left you frustrated. You'll try to move forward with a bit more patience, and hope the situation will be resolved swiftly. I find e-mails such as that help bring things back to a productive level, and everyone on Simu's end will redouble their efforts to bring the situation to a amiable solution.

[Izzy]

Looks like a frustrating situation. I would suggest sending another e-mail apologizing for any antagonistic tones/responses you may have had, and explain that the situation has simply left you frustrated. You'll try to move forward with a bit more patience, and hope the situation will be resolved swiftly. I find e-mails such as that help bring things back to a productive level, and everyone on Simu's end will redouble their efforts to bring the situation to a amiable solution.

I've been strongly considering this. I think (hope) I got my feelings across, so now my goal needs to shift towards resolution, which as you and others have mentioned is perpetuated by warm fuzzies.

[grenthor]

Sorry. I don't see Samcras doing anything wrong as long as what you copied is the whole text. The first email that gets nasty imo is yours marked Apr 18, 2009 at 12:38 PM. Before that all his emails were really just informing you what is happening. It loosk like he even tried to go beyond just telling you how long it will take and he's agreeing that you are right and there should be checks but that no one ever thought it could happen.

There is the seperate issue of how long it should take. I can't comment on that since I have no idea what is involved on their end to get it done. I know in our company the backup would have to come from across the country and if it's not something mission critical or an emergency project it usually takes about a month. Hell the last time the single most critical system went down that alone took 5 days to bring back up.

It's also possible that since you got the character that screwed up that they are having to invent some sort of system to load it back in without killing the whole game.

[g++]

God damnit Izzy, its like every day another QQ thread from you bitching about how your character got corrupted again. Stop with the bitching. We don't want to hear you QQ about a stupid bard and a sack full of gems. Its just a game, stop complaining and reroll.

Eh you have a point I did not mean it to come off like that. Im just saying try to look at it from the GM's point of view, this is probarbly a very large hassle for him and he seems cordial enough if a bit blunt. My other point was that feedback is not really customer service in the same sense as usual. The guy is probarbly more skilled in fixing game issues than he is in placating people and he likely writes as many lock out responses as he does techinical support emails. It sucks for you, but like others and the OP now have said getting the issue fixed should be job 1 not hashing out personal problems with the dude writing the emails to you.

[Ashlander]

I didn't even know there was an item limit before I read this thread.

[Izzy]

Just an update, if anyone cares. 16 days is apparently the magic number. I suggest not emptying all your jar mules' gems at once then logging out.

[Warriorbird]

I imagine some of the staff secretly resent alchemy as much as the players do.

[Mr. Dallas]

Just an update, if anyone cares. 16 days is apparently the magic number. I suggest not emptying all your jar mules' gems at once then logging out.

Did you at least get the token exp for finding a bug? :)

[AestheticDeath]

Several bugs with these jars. I found the bug with how the jars and the gem chisels interacted. I am sure someone else found it before me and didn't report it... but anyhow you can no longer put chiseled gems inside these jars. :P

It's too bad I wasn't already ready to leave the game when I found that bug. I could have made TON's of money abusing that bug, assuming they didn't figure it out real quick. That would have been one awesome farewell ban. Or something.

Also, why the fuck don't they have local copies of character files they can just copy over real easy?

And how the fuck do a few extra items corrupt the file? We used to have SHITLOADS of items on characters before a couple years ago when they implemented the item limit. I encountered the weight limits with 1-2 lb fluff items, and lockpicks and scrolls, before they implemented this. How come it wasn't uber fucked back then?

[Celephais]

... AD, you seriously think that their code base makes logical sense?

[AestheticDeath]

I still don't know code, haven't taken the time to learn yet, but somehow I doubt they do anything correctly anymore.