Sorcsplosion 2009

[Rolton-Sammich]

Allereli, of course, already posted here... but today on the officials:



So, lets see.

We lost spell 703 with the conversion, because it was too "mental". Obviously, we're not mentalists. And 6 years later, this "mentalist" penalty still exists. It's been brought up repeatedly. In all that time, no one can agree? Or is it just that because we have all these other great (/sarcasm) spells, we don't really need to use our 6th, 13th, 17th or 18th level spells at endgame anyway so, so what if they don't function properly.

717 was coded long before the AvG. And now, in the fullness of time, we have a spell that is only marginally useful anyway - but will not give bounty credit on what for most people would be a kick-ass end roll in the high hundreds. This hasn't been an issue (that I'm aware of) for more than a couple months, but when can we antcipate a decision on that? Prorating things, with one variable being absent since the mentalist penalties still aren't resolved, I'll go with never.

Remote 718 has been a known "issue" since fairly soon after the AvG came out. No one's made any "official" statement on that. Again, a situation where we have so many other options, do we really need to use a spell that can kill us? I would say no, but the people that have spent 100's of TP's to use that spell so it doesn't kill them may disagree, and take issue with a penalty being awarded to them for all their hard work.

I'll be making the necessary arrangements to quit within the next couple of days. I have had it.




Just submitted my cancellation request. Not sure how long I will be around before the account closes. You guys keep fighting the good fight and what not. I tire of it all.




The meetings where we rant and think up new ways to whine about our broken spells are going to be empty. I can't talk to myself. How are we to think up new ways to get the mob-ments in the other professions to think we're all a bunch of envious prats? This is tough work, I can't do this work by myself. You, Evarin, Allereli, Querthose (though, I'm loathe to count him), sorcerers are dropping like flies!

I did close one account, and I may downgrade another, I forgot to put in why I closed the account though (lack of sorcerer development) in the account closing comments. So let it be known here, that is why I did it.

Virilneus




Add me (Xandalf) to the list. I came back after about a year away from the game to find that... nothing had changed with sorcery while other professions had gained all sorts of neat tricks.

I'm gone. Good luck guys.


:popcorn:

[Warriorbird]

Could we trade them to DR for Traders?

[Jayvn]

CCF sold out how fast? I don't think they're going to hear the arguments unfortunately.
I wish I could break away from gs permanently..like for real forever..not however many times I've quit for good within the last 14 or 15 years.. Wow distracted me for a good solid year. Nothing seems to fill that hole that craves mundane long long grinding and power hunting like gs yet..

gs did lose the insane grasp it had on me back in say..98...when I would ignore all life around me just to see the pretty words go by, now it's just a filler or a hunt here and there thing. Pretty much the same reason I'll always go back to final fantasy 1... nostalgic crack..that I bore with after a while. plus it's like a chat room where I get to kill shit.

[Allereli]

Add me (Xandalf) to the list. I came back after about a year away from the game to find that... nothing had changed with sorcery while other professions had gained all sorts of neat tricks.

I'm gone. Good luck guys.

Don't forget Xandalf

[Jayvn]

XAAAAaannndolllph...

oh wait that was gandolf that frodo screamed for when he fell into that pit with the bad assery fire guy...

Your soul belongs to use allereli.... N.O. E.S.C.A.P.E final fantasy 3/6 ghost train.

[Latrinsorm]

I always liked Rheisia's player, does she post here? Obviously Evarin is a good chap and a tough loss for sorc-dom and Virilneus can go fuck himself.

[Rolton-Sammich]

I always liked Rheisia's player, does she post here? Obviously Evarin is a good chap and a tough loss for sorc-dom and Virilneus can go fuck himself.

She does, though not as religiously as some. I actually missed that she brought up leaving in the "Peeing on dead people" roleplaying thread: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=926685#post926685

[Fallen]

Just bored of playing. CCF was awesome. Best event in years. I just realized that all I had to go back to was the same crap i've been doing for the last 2? years since I've been capped and said, "Whats the point?"

Sorcerers aren't the only ones who have had their DEV come to a relative standstill. Bards, Rangers, and Paladins have seen next to nothing of note be released for them of late, and have next to nothing to look forward to, really. Is it so much to ask that ALL profession Development be given NUMBER ONE priority in this game? Fuck monks, fuck post cap hunting grounds, fuck alchemy. I want an active guru for every single profession. I'll probably poke my head in for E.G. unless I get caught up in console games. Still haven't played Resident Evil 5, or finished Silent Hill yet.

[Swami71]

What about the new combining chalk ability?

[Fallen]

What about the new combining chalk ability?

What about it?

[Swami71]

New DEV....just saying :shrug:

[Fallen]

New DEV....just saying :shrug:

Sure. I guess you could call the lesser regeneration potion DEV too.

[Rathain]

What about the new combining chalk ability?

In the event you weren't being sarcastic - it's akin to the introduction and modifications to sheathmaking when warriors were complaining of the stagnant profession. It's a change - but something that completely sidesteps the major complaint.

[Swami71]

I was being sarcastic. But overall I'm happy with the game even though our profession isn't the best. I still pwn plenty. My only wish is that sorcerers had an ability to be more useful besides scroll infusion. Something like adding TD to items or a unique spell to add DS, AS, or maneuver defense.

[thefarmer]

Despite disagreeing with them at various times, every profession could use such vocal supporters as they were.

Damnit, now I'll never be able to convince Rhesia to sell me that shield..

[crb]

I always liked Rheisia's player, does she post here? Obviously Evarin is a good chap and a tough loss for sorc-dom and Virilneus can go fuck himself.
Not until I fuck you first!

[Warriorbird]

Not until I fuck you first!

I think Virilneus could be the third guy with lightsaber in the second version of this pic.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/1/1c/Chancellor_Cheney.jpg

[Makkah]

Evarin, good guy. Good RP, sucks to see him go.

Virilneus, old old friend. Pretty good RP, also sucks to see him go, even if he's a whiny little shit.

Allereli, Rheisia, anyone else? Eh. Get the fuck out and don't come back. Just annoying.

[Fallen]

Thanks, Makkah.

You guys do realize Virilneus isn't going anywhere, right? He downgraded some accounts, but he isn't quitting.

[Allereli]

who are you?

[DaCapn]

How does the development for sorcerers compare to some other professions? I only really know about rogues and wizards. I remember 740 and some demon changes (maybe some animate changes too? like some kind of extra attacking options?). I don't really know what else.

Rogues... waited 6 months for the guru to to say "I'm leaving" (despite the rogue dev thread being one of the more active ones). The only rogue affecting developments I can recall are:
- Recent armor changes (good stuff really went to warriors and paladins)
- Lock/trap revisions (review/reorganization, little game impact, 403/404 + 2x picking/disarm was downsized compared to 3x picking/disarm)
- Cman review (some cmans got a boost, some got totally shat on, like smastery, though this is a universal development)

Wizards...
- 540
- Enchanting review (not sure there were professional "developments" here and I still have a negative opinion of Naos for intentionally being a prick).
- There was some kind of change that had to do with familiars right?
- Alchemy (not profession-restricted but anyway, I put cman review under rogues there)

Anything else significant in the past 5 years for these two that I'm missing?

Clerics and empaths have seen some development lately. I've seen a lot of changes that have to do with non-elemental spell circles, in general. Though, most of the time, I've got no idea what circle the changes are so I don't even read the announcement.

So basically, what I'm saying is, I don't know how much this experience is a unique one. I know people aren't necessarily saying that life is uniquely worse as a sorcerer (just that it could be much better).

Someone mentioned lack of paladin development. I mean, the "What's NEW in Gemstone? PALADINS!" Announcement was up for like two years or something. Says something about the standards for new.

[Fallen]

Wizards also received the Abolition spell, but yes, they are also long overdue for updates. Luckily, theirs are coming in the form of the Elemental Lore review, which is currently underway. I imagine you will see a preview of the review within 3 months. Rogues/Warriors ARE neglected. Most definitely. They got some cool stuff now, and rogues can look forward to some cool stuff in the future.

No one but Clerics/Empaths have been receiving sustained DEV releases. I don't think any of the people who are leaving would argue with that. I feel that there is a definite unbalance between pure classes, though it is primarily the empath profession that far outstrips the others. It is hard to see another class become the dominant pure profession while yours remains largely the same year after year. Why don't the other classes care that nothing is going on for them? I don't know. They all grumble. I read nearly all folders. You want to see some bitching, go read the rogue folders. There are 1k+ word posts a plenty to read through with people fed up with the lack of dev. Rangers also tire of waiting. Bards seem pretty content on the whole. No idea why, though.

Rheisia, myself, and Xandalf didn't post this thread here. We posted our goodbyes in the sorcerer folder. I imagine other classes respective folders would be the place to look for players of said professions who got tired of waiting for crap to happen to their favored class.

[Rimalon]

Conspiracy theory: the only notable Wizard upgrade of the last 2 years, 530, was actually a hidden Empath buff in disguise, freeing up 1140 for further development.

Yep.

But the E-Lore review is essentially a crapton of Wizard-only buffs, so we'll see.

[Donquix]

Conspiracy theory: the only notable Wizard upgrade of the last 2 years, 530, was actually a hidden Empath buff in disguise, freeing up 1140 for further development.

Yep.

But the E-Lore review is essentially a crapton of Wizard-only buffs, so we'll see.

Come on stonefist buffs! big money big money big money!

I love me some stone fisting

[B4Hand]

Wizards also received the Abolition spell, but yes, they are also long overdue for updates. Luckily, theirs are coming in the form of the Elemental Lore review, which is currently underway. I imagine you will see a preview of the review within 3 months. Rogues/Warriors ARE neglected. Most definitely. They got some cool stuff now, and rogues can look forward to some cool stuff in the future.

No one but Clerics/Empaths have been receiving sustained DEV releases. I don't think any of the people who are leaving would argue with that. I feel that there is a definite unbalance between pure classes, though it is primarily the empath profession that far outstrips the others. It is hard to see another class become the dominant pure profession while yours remains largely the same year after year. Why don't the other classes care that nothing is going on for them? I don't know. They all grumble. I read nearly all folders. You want to see some bitching, go read the rogue folders. There are 1k+ word posts a plenty to read through with people fed up with the lack of dev. Rangers also tire of waiting. Bards seem pretty content on the whole. No idea why, though.

Rheisia, myself, and Xandalf didn't post this thread here. We posted our goodbyes in the sorcerer folder. I imagine other classes respective folders would be the place to look for players of said professions who got tired of waiting for crap to happen to their favored class.


I'd gladly give up some Empath development if it meant keeping certain people around. However, as only one player of the profession I don't have that sort of power. I don't know why it's difficult to get a GM that is really interested in the Sorcerer profession to get involved and do something..

[DaCapn]

I'd gladly give up some Empath development if it meant keeping certain people around. However, as only one player of the profession I don't have that sort of power. I don't know why it's difficult to get a GM that is really interested in the Sorcerer profession to get involved and do something..

I think that's a problem with the staff model. There's certainly people who are passionate about making aspects of the game the best they can be but the rewards as a developer aren't appropriate. They can't help but look at GS development as recreational. If they were paid a decent wage, the tune might change as they would actually be able to look at it as a source of income. If it was even a wage that someone could live on at a subsistence level, I think we'd see much more development and involvement, just because they'd be getting paid something that didn't feel like a slap in the face.

It doesn't help any that we pay a rather large sum (relative to operational cost at least) for this service which we get (rightfully) irritated with. Who do we end up complaining to? The people making a crap wage from their work. Coupling the two really only serves to irritate them, jade them, and eventually push them away. In turn, players don't get what they want, get irritated, jaded, and eventually pushed away. If both parties suffer the same cycle it's usually a hint that the infrastructure that binds them is poorly constructed.

[Numbers]

Same reason I left as Hadiar, basically.

One day I suddenly realized that I had been playing this game for more than a decade, was paying almost $500 a year for it, and was putting in only a few hours a month, if even that. Just wasn't worth it.

The business model for the game isn't sustainable. People will reply saying "Look at how fast events sell out" "look at all the multi-accounts" etc.. It's using a band-aid to stop a gushing head wound. When the workforce for your product is 80% volunteers, and the subscription rate has been steadily declining for years, eventually the volunteers are going to run out. The talent pool will get shittier and shittier.

This is why there have been things in the game in development for 10+ years. Think about that for a second to realize how absurd that is. I was in junior high when I started playing this game. Bill Clinton was president. Now I'm nearing 30, got a bachelor's degree and a master's degree, and make a very good living at a job I've held for the past 3 years.

And they STILL haven't implemented Major Summoning. They STILL haven't improved Voln. Things are STILL left unfinished.

The development in the game is a hodgepodge of pet projects and unfulfilled promises. And when you're charging people monthly for access to the game, that's just bullshit.

[Celephais]

They should make a "Gift of Adventure" option where you can donate to development efforts. It'd be even better if it were entirely outside of simu so there would be less concerns over it being unappropriated. Someone come up with a good model where the people who donate into it get a means to "vote" their shares towards rewarding GMs who contribute meaningfully to the game.

Seems stupid that the generosity of the paying customers would be the reward to employees of a profit generating company, but I know I'd be more than willing to buy a few beers for a dev to replace 502.

[radamanthys]

They need to open up development. Look at all the awesome scripts around. Let every player submit stuff, and in a very web 2.0 atmosphere, open a test server with a VOTE UP and VOTE DOWN command for implemented stuff.

They already look at the playerbase for employees anyway. And stuff they want to keep a secret could just be left a secret (why, I don't know).


Meh, I dunno. Half-assed attempt to contribute. Carry on.

[Morph]

I don't see why sorcerers are so upset these days. I only hunt nelemar, but from my point of view being a sorc is great. 717 one shots combatants and executioners every time. 719 1 shots sirens just about every time. 719 one shots radicals about 50% of the time. Defenders die in 2 or 3 705s. Sentries and GWEs die easily enough to 720 or a few 711s.

[Rolton-Sammich]

I don't see why sorcerers are so upset these days. I only hunt nelemar, but from my point of view being a sorc is great. 717 one shots combatants and executioners every time. 719 1 shots sirens just about every time. 719 one shots radicals about 50% of the time. Defenders die in 2 or 3 705s. Sentries and GWEs die easily enough to 720 or a few 711s.

Quick, before they all leave! Go post that in the official sorcerer boards and feel the love.

:medieval:

[Danical]

I don't see why sorcerers are so upset these days. I only hunt nelemar, but from my point of view being a sorc is great. 717 one shots combatants and executioners every time. 719 1 shots sirens just about every time. 719 one shots radicals about 50% of the time. Defenders die in 2 or 3 705s. Sentries and GWEs die easily enough to 720 or a few 711s.

That's all well and good, except Gnimble does it faster and more efficiently; that's just not right.

Oh, and I have vastly superior CMan and Creature Maneuver defense.

lulz?

[Fallen]

So Rolton-Sammich = Pricklies? Makes sense, I suppose.

[Donquix]

Killing power isn't bad for sorcs, they're clearly viable. It's just their profession defining abiltiies are either sorta underwhelming (demons), not implemented (ensorcel), or really clunky (planar shift)

[Fallen]

Killing power isn't bad for sorcs, they're clearly viable. It's just their profession defining abiltiies are either sorta underwhelming (demons), not implemented (ensorcel), or really clunky (planar shift)

With the exception of warriors who refuse to wear outside spells at cap, there isn't an unviable profession in the game. All are able to hunt fairly efficiently. You've basically the right of it. The profession is just stale. I've faith in Strathspey to set things right if it makes good on his promises. I just don't feel like waiting around 2+ years until that happens, though.

[Miscast]

Now Miscast can return and assume his rightful place as the most powerful sorcerer and rule over Elanthia with a veil-iron fist!!!!!!!!1111

[Fallen]

Good luck with that. Mistros isn't going anywhere.

[radamanthys]

Did Mekthros ever give up?

[Miscast]

Good luck with that. Mistros isn't going anywhere.
The ground around you seems to shake violently, making it hard to stand.
You lose your balance and fall over.
Roundtime: 15 sec.
Suddenly, the ground seems steadier.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>
...wait 14 seconds.
>l
[Ta'Faendryl Approach]
A flat sea of black mud with a rusty red tinge spreads out on all sides, and its surface shines from the thin layer of water that covers it. The water reflects the moonlight brilliantly, almost blindingly. The beauty is marred by the uncomfortable humidity that rises from the mud sea, causing clothing and armor to take on a moist feel and chafe annoyingly. The area also carries the nauseating odor of putrefying plant life.
Obvious paths: east, northwest
>
Mistros just arrived.
>
* Brikus returns home from a hard day of adventuring.
>
* Kagdeth returns home from a hard day of adventuring.
>
Mistros traces a sign that contorts in the air while he forcefully incants a dark invocation...
>
Mistros gestures.
A void rips open in the area, directly above Mistros!
Forceful decompression nearly turns Mistros inside out!
+140 Hits.

* Mistros drops dead at your feet!

[Danical]

Mekthros left after the GSS like 3 years ago; even at the height of the GSS he was just barely capped.

Again, as I've said before, GS lost a lot when Wulfhen/Mekthros/Licel stopped playing (although Licel is back, hurray!). Losing 4 Sorcs actually invested in RP within a week is a major blow.

Sad Panda. Srsly4srs.

[Danical]

The ground around you seems to shake violently, making it hard to stand.
You lose your balance and fall over.
Roundtime: 15 sec.
Suddenly, the ground seems steadier.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>e
...wait 14 seconds.
>
...wait 14 seconds.
>l
[Ta'Faendryl Approach]
A flat sea of black mud with a rusty red tinge spreads out on all sides, and its surface shines from the thin layer of water that covers it. The water reflects the moonlight brilliantly, almost blindingly. The beauty is marred by the uncomfortable humidity that rises from the mud sea, causing clothing and armor to take on a moist feel and chafe annoyingly. The area also carries the nauseating odor of putrefying plant life.
Obvious paths: east, northwest
>
Mistros just arrived.
>
* Brikus returns home from a hard day of adventuring.
>
* Kagdeth returns home from a hard day of adventuring.
>
Mistros traces a sign that contorts in the air while he forcefully incants a dark invocation...
>
Mistros gestures.
A void rips open in the area, directly above Mistros!
Forceful decompression nearly turns Mistros inside out!
+140 Hits.

* Mistros drops dead at your feet!

Typing 720 Mis instead of Misc = fail, apparently.

[StrayRogue]

With the exception of warriors who refuse to wear outside spells at cap, there isn't an unviable profession in the game. All are able to hunt fairly efficiently. You've basically the right of it. The profession is just stale. I've faith in Strathspey to set things right if it makes good on his promises. I just don't feel like waiting around 2+ years until that happens, though.

Totally agree. It was why I quit in the first place. The entire game had gone stale; it was totally a benign slog with little flavour.

[Lord Orbstar]

i reactivated my old City of Heroes account. It is fun still. Little diversions from Elanthia are good for the soul sometimes

[TheWitch]

Yes, I post here, but no, not regularily. Rheisia is my character. I'm leaving because:

Alchemy. I almost left last fall, when I quit the host program, because I was so frustrated by the way the game is run. But I stayed because of alchemy. I hoped, naively and foolishly, that the Phase II recipes would make the brain numbing time sink of alchemy worth it. They did not. The Phase II recipes are even worse than the Phase I recipes as far as componentry, cost and time-sinkery, further complicated by the fact that virtually none of the components are sold in the guild shops - or they're sold in the guild shop of another profession. The lesser animate healing potion was the nail in that particular coffin. It is by far easier, and more cost and time effective to just kill your animate and animate another, than it is to use this potion - and that is a shame. And that's the lesser version. The greater version, I like to joke, probably requires an entire troll still living and essence of a Luucosian warrior. Allereli wisely added in ground ki'lin horn, which doesn't even exist in the game.

Sorcerery. Frankly, the lack of new development doesn't aggravate me as much as the total and complete lack of interest in fixing things that already exist but do not function properly. Not only do these things not get fixed, but we get told, to paraphrase Oscuro's post on the officials yesterday, "they're not important enough to fix". It doesn't help that my secondary character is a rogue, and they're in pretty bad shape, too.

Real life. I'm training for a half marathon, my kids go to an expensive private school and I really need to not spend several hours a day pishing around in that stupid game and get a regular job, not three seasonal part time gigs.

So, there ya have it. Farmer, even if was going to get rid of that staff/shield, I wouldn't sell it - I would give it back to the person who gave it to me in the first place. I'm not selling anything off my accounts, except some odds and ends, because I too would like to believe that one day the game might become a source of fun for me again, and not aggravation.

[zhelas]

I am glad folks aren't going to sell their accounts.

Yes Sorcerers can hunt.

HOWEVER

One gets tired of repeatedly banging their heads against the wall when they tell the GMS they sky is blue and the powers that be insist that it is purple by design.

With the folks who are leaving now.... the use of spell 730 has dropped 75%.

[Izzy]

Holy fucking QQ fest. Change your fucking tampons and grow the fuck up. You're all grown adults, what the fuck is with the temper tantrum rage quitting over a fucking game? I seriously am dumbfounded.

[Warriorbird]

Most games people don't play for over five years, much less ten. While I may rarely agree with some of them about their profession I certainly understand it can evoke profound feelings.

[Asha]

You're dumbfounded people decide to stop paying for something that's broken?
That's not QQing.
That's choosing not to continue to do something dumb.

[Khariz]

You're dumbfounded people decide to stop paying for something that's broken?
That's not QQing.
That's choosing not to continue to do something dumb.

I agree.

[zhelas]

You're dumbfounded people decide to stop paying for something that's broken?
That's not QQing.
That's choosing not to continue to do something dumb.

Positive rep my friend.

[Izzy]

You're dumbfounded people decide to stop paying for something that's broken?
That's not QQing.
That's choosing not to continue to do something dumb.

Complaining about something based on the fact that it isn't exactly how you wish it was is QQing. No game is ever going to be exactly how you want it, learn to take the good with the bad. They have extraordinarily limited resources, all things considered I think they do ok.

[Asha]

Complaining about something based on the fact that it isn't exactly how you wish it was is QQing.
It's not how I wish it was. It's how they told us it would be but has taken them 5 years or more past their ETA to tell us it's RSN.


No game is ever going to be exactly how you want it, learn to take the good with the bad.
That's completely missed the point. The point is frustration over lack of work on broken implements.


They have extraordinarily limited resources, all things considered I think they do ok.
Seriously. Do you think they do ok at addressing the issues regarding sorcery and it's problems?
Because that's what this topic is about.

[Allereli]

Not sure who the player is, but Saath is out, too


The HUGE use of components in our spells, the broken spells, the promises and the waste of DEV time they spent on alchemy plus the veiled responses if ANY and passes of responsibility to teams that aren't interested has had me hovering over the cancel button for a long time.

The lack of response or interest from anyone with any answers to any of my perfectly valid questions, after I PAY for this game and spent so much time doing so has made me press that button this morning.
I'll be back when 704 maneuver defense comes in, in 2004.

[DoctorUnne]

Sweet when all the sorcerers quit the rogues are going to take over Elanthia!

[Ryvicke]

Complaining about something based on the fact that it isn't exactly how you wish it was is QQing. No game is ever going to be exactly how you want it, learn to take the good with the bad. They have extraordinarily limited resources, all things considered I think they do ok.

Yeah. That. ^

I guess maybe the real issue is that besides empaths, every profession in the game has so many legitimate reasons to bitch, and why the fuck are we doing it to Oscuro, who seriously, come on--is a good guy and is just getting seriously assfucked by five people right now because he informed us that max spirit was capped at 13 in 2003. (Maybe he's wrong, maybe he's not?)

Why are we making the volunteer (I know this word is in question) staff into Customer service reps for a company that is obviously flawed? I mean, seriously, they're not there to answer for every fucked up policy or mechanic in the game, and I feel bad for the ones that are informative and stick their heads onto the boards to throw us a bone as to why they're thinking what they're thinking about said policies and mechanics. I mean, in recent weeks someone even posted a pro-fucking-Andraste thread here--these people are mostly decent human beings.

So stop freaking out at them maybe?

[TheWitch]

You know what, guys? If you don't want to read about people explaining why they're leaving a game they've played for a better part of decade then I have an idea for you....

Don't.

Five people have asked me in various venues what it was that put me over. They all read this board, so I answered here once instead of in three different places.

I love Oscuro. He was hired as a host the same time I was, and quickly became a GM. I don't like to see him getting pounded either. But when he posts some of things he posts, he has to expect it. Basically telling sorcerers that the issues with their spells are "not worth fixing"? Come on.

[Izzy]

You know what, guys? If you don't want to read about people explaining why they're leaving a game they've played for a better part of decade then I have an idea for you....

Don't.

You know what? If you don't want to read about people explaining why they do or do not agree with you then I have an idea for you....

Don't post.

It's a forum, people don't have to all have the same opinions.

[TheWitch]

You know what? If you don't want to read about people explaining why they do or do not agree with you then I have an idea for you....

Don't post.

It's a forum, people don't have to all have the same opinions.

And I would suggest there are probably better ways to disagree with people as opposed to the vulgar and insulting way in which you did so.

But you do what you like, skidmark on the BVD's of life, and so will I.

[Atlanteax]

Alchemy. I almost left last fall, when I quit the host program, because I was so frustrated by the way the game is run.

So, there ya have it. Farmer, even if was going to get rid of that staff/shield, I wouldn't sell it - I would give it back to the person who gave it to me in the first place. I'm not selling anything off my accounts, except some odds and ends, because I too would like to believe that one day the game might become a source of fun for me again, and not aggravation.

Nice, I assume you mean Game Host program.

I got jaded with how problem characters were handled on a "hot potato" basis (and who really wants to play when having to endure twits who take joy in harrassing others?).

Another thing was how on the GM side (from what I could see as a Host) the "status quo" was so entrenched, it seemed like each attempt at making positive change would require a long and arduous journey, even if the change could be considered "common sense".

So I feel for those GMs that want to push the game forward in content development, but having to babysit problem characters (consuming an obscene about of time that would otherwise be spent in development) and the frustration involved in trying to brighten up Elanthia for the players (pseudo "red tape") ... can surely be very draining and discouraging...

... to the extent that despite high aspirations, "nothing changes".

[Proxy]

You're dumbfounded people decide to stop paying for something that's broken?
That's not QQing.
That's choosing not to continue to do something dumb.

win

Edit: Oh, and after 14 years of playing various sorcerers in Gemstone. I'm gone for good. Finished killing off my last living remnants of GS this week. So 3 more accounts down and staying.

[Allereli]

So I feel for those GMs that want to push the game forward in content development, but having to babysit problem characters (consuming an obscene about of time that would otherwise be spent in development) and the frustration involved in trying to brighten up Elanthia for the players (pseudo "red tape") ... can surely be very draining and discouraging...

... to the extent that despite high aspirations, "nothing changes".

Can you elaborate any further on how development is stopped because of griefing twits?

[TheWitch]

Nice, I assume you mean Game Host program.

I got jaded with how problem characters were handled on a "hot potato" basis (and who really wants to play when having to endure twits who take joy in harrassing others?).

Yes, I hosted for over two years and trained newbie hosts. I didn't make that public knowledge but now it doesn't really seem to matter.


Can you elaborate any further on how development is stopped because of griefing twits?

Honestly, I don't know if development per se was stopped by griefing twits. What my experiences were that led to frustration and eventually quitting the host program is all the things we couldn't tell the players as hosts. All the things we couldn't say to players that were griefing twits - like stop being a griefing twit.

There probably were occasional delays, yea, because occasionally the griefing twit would demand a referral. Usually the GM on duty was there for just that, to be onduty and answer referrals, hence not eating into their Dev time. But there were occasions that wasn't the case.

In fairness, I mostly enjoyed being a host, I met some really cool people that I wouldn't have otherwise met and the vast majority of the player base are NOT griefing twits. Their assists were legitimate, and I tried to help them as much as I could.

What got me frustrated was the entrenchment of the mind frames that Atlanteax mentioned. "This is what we've always done, this is what we will continue to do." The attitude aggravates me in life, it aggravated me as a host. One final straw was when I was accused of outing another host to a bunch of players via AIM, that A. I didn't even know said players, B, didn't even know the hosts PC and C. I don't have AIM. But I was guilty until proven innocent. That was the beginning of the end.

There are some great people that run this game, both hosts and GM's and I have no ill will toward any of them. I just wish they'd ... get it together, or something.

[DaCapn]

I love Oscuro. He was hired as a host the same time I was, and quickly became a GM. I don't like to see him getting pounded either. But when he posts some of things he posts, he has to expect it. Basically telling sorcerers that the issues with their spells are "not worth fixing"? Come on.

Well, he's direct and gives his honest opinion. He's not in charge of sorcerer development so what does it really matter? He used to come in on the rogue development board and give his two cents about things. They really had little more weight than those of a player.

[Rolton-Sammich]

The sorcerer boards need all the Oscuro they can get. Because this year, he's been posting on the sorcerer boards about as much as Strath and - more importantly, I think - he's been engaging in more serious discussion than Strath.

The official sorcerer boards are festering from a lack of in-depth engagement between players and GMs. And Strath has plans, he's posted them, and they sound great and stuff, but in the meantime sorcerers get grumpier and grumpier and there's almost no GM engagement. He throws out stuff like planning to put "about a couple dozen different curses" into Curse, so yay, but unless this stuff is like right around the corner... it's not a healthy interaction.

[Warriorbird]

Staff boxes themselves into not doing anything... and a few of the sorc posters are pretty annoying. Vicious combo.

[Atlanteax]

Can you elaborate any further on how development is stopped because of griefing twits?

Okay, as is common knowledge, Gemstone is basically staffed by a small volunteer team.

First you got the separation of CE (Customer Experience) & GD (Game Design/Develop/whatever) teams ... which in itself, isn't so much a problem, because the CE GMs (that would tend to handle the referrals) are primarily responsible for Invasions, RP storylines, Merchanting, etc.

Before I move on to the next part, I'll repeat what was said, in that most of those /assist-ing had legit questions and issues... such as something is wrong with an item, needed help with a certain spell, didn't understand Lumnis gift... so on.

Those were relatively easy to address (and it was the Host job in a way to try to "solve" as much of this stuff we can ... so a GM's time wasn't spent on it) and things I couldn't address, got referred to a GM.

But /assist regarding PKers, or someone stealing a weapon ... or retarded epic drama-fests (so-so smacked my gf/wife, so I attacked and killed him, but he then attacked my IG brother who retailated by killing his sister, and now she won't leave me alone and keeps sending me tells).

About 85% of my time on a shift was spent on issues like those. We had to find out the ENTIRE STORY from the person who /assist-ed .. and then log it to all the characters involved for the GMs to read. So come the GM's turn, they have to read all those logs, and find out what the TRUTH is (aside from digging up mechanics records to determine who is "most truthful" about their side of the story).

So if there's like 8-11 people in the queue ... if I get 3 of those in a row, my "shift" is probably over. Which means that the other 5-8 are stuck waiting (and on a personal note, this answered MY question about why does the queues take so frigging long), as there may not be another Host after me.

So back to the CE GMs, all of those time-consuming "he attacked me first!" crap takes time away from working on whatever fun RP event they may have in mind, or working on merchants. Also, and most importantly IMO, it can be demoralizing. If a GM end up having to sort through those kind of problems for a few hours, just not going to be as motivated to work on a project (again, they're *volunteers*).

Over time, I could surely get a sense of who were problem characters, because xxxx would /assist and mention him/her, and yyyy would too... and a couple of weeks later, zzzz would... a few days after bbbb would... the next way it's dddd complaining.

So it's like "HELLO!!" .. maybe it'd be better to just remove that problem character from the game. Then the CE GM time spent on xxxx yyyy zzz bbbb and dddd ... would had been spent on development instead.

Oh, let's not forget that sometimes CE GMs can't resolve or properly investigate something, so they have to pull the Dev GM from whatever they're working on to help research/solve.

Basically, it all boils down to Opportunity Cost.

And personally, I felt that the "fight to do what's right" left some GMs after they become "part of the system", and I think an assertion could be made that the GMs involved would get too much "heat" if end up costing SIMU a paid subscription or two for addressing the problem character in a punitive manner. So it instead ends up being treated as a "hot potato" ... acknowledged, passed onto the next staff person, and never resolutely addressed.

So when you read about so-so the infamous twit, and wonder HOW it is that he/she is still playing ... despite being SUCH a twit ... now you know.

If you wonder why there aren't more events and merchanting being done ... now you know.

If you wonder why whatever profession hasn't seen much development, a spell is unfinished, or whatever that could still use some improvement... you can safely bet that it's related to the issues on the CE side.

[ElvenFury]

Aize just quit too. Although he was really a rogue, he was such a Sorcerer poser. :-P

[Rolton-Sammich]

Staff boxes themselves into not doing anything... and a few of the sorc posters are pretty annoying. Vicious combo.

Yeah. Then the sorcerers get left alone - like in the entire month of March, when zero GMs made substantive posts on the sorcerer boards- and get feistier and feistier until they lash out at whatever they can. Oscuro appears to be the only GM who has the time and patience to do the back and forth with someone like Virilneus (which he just did all morning today).

[Allereli]

Yeah. Then the sorcerers get left alone - like in the entire month of March, when zero GMs made substantive posts on the sorcerer boards- and get feistier and feistier until they lash out at whatever they can. Oscuro appears to be the only GM who has the time and patience to do the back and forth with someone like Virilneus (which he just did all morning today).

Wow, you just can't comprehend that over 2 years of development was put into a shitty system instead of fixing things. No one said the GMs do nothing, and now that we've seen the true direction of alchemy, no one thinks it was a good idea.

The few of us who actually stuck with the system and worked it and made the most out of it gave a lot of feedback. No promises were made to change anything, so fine, don't change it, and the system will continue to be underused. Strath and Naos did take a lot of our suggestions, from the upcoming library, to the amount of charges in some of the items, to making it a tad bit easier with the crystal breakdown recipes. It just wasn't enough, and they continue to work on the system that almost nobody wants to use, not even the people who have mastered.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Whoa whoa whoa slow down there, cowgirl. I'm not saying that the players are wrong.

Read plz.

[Allereli]

Whoa whoa whoa slow down there, cowgirl. I'm not saying that the players are wrong.

Read plz.


Yeah. Then the sorcerers get left alone - like in the entire month of March, when zero GMs made substantive posts on the sorcerer boards- and get feistier and feistier until they lash out at whatever they can.

then I would suggest you choose your words more carefully. Your tone would indicate the opposite

[Rolton-Sammich]

I try to restore balance to the force.

[Allereli]

I try to restore balance to the force.

You try to be an idiot. Congrats on your accomplishment, Prickles.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Damn, people, "Pricklies," it's not that fucking hard to spell.

There is a line between "showing strong advocacy for the profession" and "fruitlessly bitching up a storm." If you think that prominent sorcerers on the official forums stay firmly on the positive side of that line, you're sadly mistaken.

I approach GemStone as it is. A lot of people try to play this game as they wish it to be, and that's a sad sad mistake. They get frustrated, pissed off, and in some cases, leave because of it. Players just are not in the position to remake the profession. So, yes, advocate, go for it.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Then again, the bitchy customer gets "accidentally" left on hold until they hang up.

[Back]

Actually, I think she meant “prickless”.

Sorry, I am so out of the loop. Disregard. Carry on.

[Rolton-Sammich]

I played Prime with the character name so... yeah, pretty sure I've heard all of the prick jokes. Go ahead, though.

[Donquix]

Such animosity....all Prickster was saying is that the sorcerers get frustrated at times (understandably so), and it shows.

[Allereli]

If you think that prominent sorcerers on the official forums stay firmly on the positive side of that line, you're sadly mistaken.

I approach GemStone as it is. A lot of people try to play this game as they wish it to be, and that's a sad sad mistake. They get frustrated, pissed off, and in some cases, leave because of it. Players just are not in the position to remake the profession. So, yes, advocate, go for it.

Why do you think the prominent sorcerers are prominent? because they bitch up a storm on the boards? no, it's because they add something to the game that goes beyond leveling up a character and hunting. For example, you can criticize Virilneus all you want, foraging and alchemy wouldn't be the same without him, same as Xygon and Playershops. They do the research, they talk to people, they actually play the game, unlike the GMs.

These are the people who help the noobs asking for training help, tell people where to find things, and run player groups. They not only have multiple accounts, but they encourage others to keep playing, or to come back, adding to the bottom line of the company.

Enjoy being a normal player. Normal players don't post, nor do they make any sort of impact.

[thefarmer]

So, there ya have it. Farmer, even if was going to get rid of that staff/shield, I wouldn't sell it - I would give it back to the person who gave it to me in the first place. I'm not selling anything off my accounts, except some odds and ends, because I too would like to believe that one day the game might become a source of fun for me again, and not aggravation.

Fair enough. It was more a lament about players who quit and never return and the historical/powerful items they have. I wasn't too serious.

It's good that you're considering coming back, rather than selling out in the attempt to have less reason to. Everyone needs a break once in awhile. I'm considering one myself later this year.

[StrayRogue]

Fair enough. It was more a lament about players who quit and never return and the historical/powerful items they have. I wasn't too serious.



I might come to Ebons this year just to do this :D

[Ryvicke]

Enjoy being a normal player. Normal players don't post, nor do they make any sort of impact.

At the risk of bringing forth TEH WRATH I just want to mention that "normal players" make up the majority of the population of gemstone. Hell, I have friends who are "normal players" who are fucking awesome RP'ers, who are engaged and test mechanics/puzzles, etc. but read the boards casually.

I hope the GMs are taking more of what they see and experience in the actual game into account when making changes than just what people bring up on the boards. I would not want the boards--and those who post on them--to (entirely) steer the DEV goals of Gemstone.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Enjoy being a normal player. Normal players don't post, nor do they make any sort of impact.

:rofl:

[crb]

Yeah. Then the sorcerers get left alone - like in the entire month of March, when zero GMs made substantive posts on the sorcerer boards- and get feistier and feistier until they lash out at whatever they can. Oscuro appears to be the only GM who has the time and patience to do the back and forth with someone like Virilneus (which he just did all morning today).
Someone like me, or me. There can be only one! If there is an imposter out there let me know and I'll have his balls!

[DoctorUnne]

Yeah I'm astounded by the disconnect between the people I see most regularly on the forums and the people I interact with most often in the game. There are only 2-3 maybe of the 100 people I know in game who post on the forums regularly. I'm sure there are some more that read them and don't post, or I just haven't connected, but it's amazing how when I walked into Icemule and told everyone all about all the shit I got done at CCF, 90% of them were like what is CCF? And not in an RP sense either, like literally wtf is CCF?

[Allereli]

At the risk of bringing forth TEH WRATH I just want to mention that "normal players" make up the majority of the population of gemstone. Hell, I have friends who are "normal players" who are fucking awesome RP'ers, who are engaged and test mechanics/puzzles, etc. but read the boards casually.

I hope the GMs are taking more of what they see and experience in the actual game into account when making changes than just what people bring up on the boards. I would not want the boards--and those who post on them--to (entirely) steer the DEV goals of Gemstone.

great, glad they and you are happy with it. DEV goals have always been their own, do you see any monks?

[Warriorbird]

Why do you think the prominent sorcerers are prominent? because they bitch up a storm on the boards?

In Virilneus's case, yes.


For example, you can criticize Virilneus all you want, foraging and alchemy wouldn't be the same without him, same as Xygon and Playershops.

Alchemy maybe.

The rest of you haven't gone to that point... but Virilneus made me want to do what Jay did in Plat... leave the officials entirely alone due to the sheer degree of retardation. Here's better... you can actually respond properly.

[Fallen]

Fair enough. It was more a lament about players who quit and never return and the historical/powerful items they have. I wasn't too serious.

It's good that you're considering coming back, rather than selling out in the attempt to have less reason to. Everyone needs a break once in awhile. I'm considering one myself later this year.

I had every intention of passing off my items for others to use in my absence..but then the people I was going to pass them to quit with me. I may be back in 6 months, or 2 years, or whatever. The items are just lines of text..but they are also worth about 2k RL dollars, so I would rather not just hand them out to anyone. I want to give them to someone I know will be around if/when I get back, and would return them to me. If I quit for good I will make sure they stay in the realms.

[Danical]

I had every intention of passing off my items for others to use in my absence..but then the people I was going to pass them to quit with me. I may be back in 6 months, or 2 years, or whatever. The items are just lines of text..but they are also worth about 2k RL dollars, so I would rather not just hand them out to anyone. I want to give them to someone I know will be around if/when I get back, and would return them to me. If I quit for good I will make sure they stay in the realms.

dibs!

[crb]

In Virilneus's case, yes.



Alchemy maybe.

The rest of you haven't gone to that point... but Virilneus made me want to do what Jay did in Plat... leave the officials entirely alone due to the sheer degree of retardation. Here's better... you can actually respond properly.
Tell me how you really feel. Go on, let it all out.

[Warriorbird]

Frequently. The constant stream of attacks on development for anybody else made me not want y'all to get anything. I actually like sorcerors and other than the occasional bit of superiority complex I've enjoyed roleplaying with Evarin, Rheisia, and Xandalf.

[Soulpieced]

What a whine fest. I was always of the mindset that if you can't hack it, get better gear so you can. Pretty much any profession can do just fine with some nice equipment. Bards have gotten pretty much the least attention of any profession since the beginning of Gemstone.

[crb]

What a whine fest. I was always of the mindset that if you can't hack it, get better gear so you can. Pretty much any profession can do just fine with some nice equipment. Bards have gotten pretty much the least attention of any profession since the beginning of Gemstone.
There was a time when I'd post as much as well and say bards need more development.

That time has passed.

[Allereli]

What a whine fest. I was always of the mindset that if you can't hack it, get better gear so you can. Pretty much any profession can do just fine with some nice equipment. Bards have gotten pretty much the least attention of any profession since the beginning of Gemstone.

wtf does any of it have to do with equipment? Can't get myself a better-functioning cauldron that requires less shit to make the same thing.

[Rolton-Sammich]

wtf does any of it have to do with equipment? Can't get myself a better-functioning cauldron that requires less shit to make the same thing.
Your reason was alchemy. Not everyone else's.

[Warriorbird]

wtf does any of it have to do with equipment? Can't get myself a better-functioning cauldron that requires less shit to make the same thing.

Some of us did point out that guild skills could actually be pretty lame.

[Allereli]

Some of us did point out that guild skills could actually be pretty lame.

Ok, then you can let them go on being lame while they spend a lot of development time on them.

[Warriorbird]

Berserk and Tricks got better. Warcries too. It doesn't mean that Warcries doesn't match the intense tedium of Alchemy if covering a shorter total duration. Searching for partner reps as a Warrior these days is something akin to self immolation.

Lock Mastery is probably just as bad as Alchemy. I never had the stomach to go all the way through it.

I don't blame you for leaving at all. I do think all of you were familiar with how Simu worked though.

[crb]

lock mastery isn't close to alchemy.

For one, you can't make up to 200 exp for every potion you brew. For two, generally you have to pay people for the components you need, rather than them tipping you for the honor of delivering to you what you need. Then, of course, pretty much everyone has access to a critter that drops boxes within their level range. Much easier than grummaging for something specific to one realm or one critter.

[LadyLaphrael]

Lock Mastery is probably just as bad as Alchemy.

Allereli helped me all the way through LM, and I tried to help her as best I could through Alchemy. I got to witness the horrors. There is absolutely no comparison from what I can see. LM provides a continuous passive benefit to a locksmith with no additional work after mastery. Alchemy? Not a chance.

[Warriorbird]

Sounds rough. I wouldn't go near it. If I wanted skills like that I'd play DR again.

I think its sort of like somebody who you have a questionable marriage to suddenly developing a drinking problem, however. If all of you didn't have other issues with Simu that built up over the years you might stay and try to help things out.

[Fallen]

I'm leaving primarily due to boredom. I've done it all, seen it all, and I don't feel like sticking around waiting for more stuff to come. I think Sorcerers, if they keep Strath, and he makes good on his promises, have a lot to look forward to. But between then and now? Not much to do but hunt Teras/OTF.

[Allereli]

I think its sort of like somebody who you have a questionable marriage to suddenly developing a drinking problem, however. If all of you didn't have other issues with Simu that built up over the years you might stay and try to help things out.

They have our contact information if they want help.

edit: I don't stay in abusive relationships

[Lucos]

Tell me how you really feel. Go on, let it all out.

I'll pipe up. You're a fucking thief that likes to hide behind mechanics.

[joehollywood]

oooh I smell a drama coming!!!

who's got da popcorn?

[zhelas]

Now if the Sorcerers/Sorceresses (folks who still play and folks who quit) were to show up at this years Simucon...... The powers that be might have to call Security to escort them off property.

[Sean of the Thread]

I've got a lot respect for Rheisia. She actually mentored me a bit on sorc back in the day.

[Warriorbird]

They have our contact information if they want help.

edit: I don't stay in abusive relationships

Just the way you should be.

[TheWitch]

Before I move on to the next part, I'll repeat what was said, in that most of those /assist-ing had legit questions and issues... such as something is wrong with an item, needed help with a certain spell, didn't understand Lumnis gift... so on.

So if there's like 8-11 people in the queue ... if I get 3 of those in a row, my "shift" is probably over. Which means that the other 5-8 are stuck waiting (and on a personal note, this answered MY question about why does the queues take so frigging long), as there may not be another Host after me.

So back to the CE GMs, all of those time-consuming "he attacked me first!" crap takes time away from working on whatever fun RP event they may have in mind, or working on merchants. Also, and most importantly IMO, it can be demoralizing. If a GM end up having to sort through those kind of problems for a few hours, just not going to be as motivated to work on a project (again, they're *volunteers*).

I'm going to guess you hosted during prime hours. My shifts were late morning/early afternoon and I don't think I ever had 8 people in the queue, much less three back to back dumb asses.

So yea. A shame, isn't it.

[justincredible]

I think the problem with sorcerers is we are the constant target of the nerf bat. Every change to sorcery has come at the expense of the fun I have with the character. This list can be much longer but these are just the things that "grind my gears"

Growing pains (nuff said)

Critter maneuver explosion

Open handed channeling (jump through more hoops to retain same ability)

714, it's nice but spending hours prepping runestones/sorting scrolls only to have them lock kills me. Not to mention the cost

Animate dead gather and carry tons of crap for a spell that lasts maybe 20 minutes. I've used this spell once

Minor summoning Used this spell twice, worthless imo. If I wanted to summon a stupid little "pet" I'd have played a wizard...

Alchemy, I think enough has been said about this

740 awesome, until other classes get the same damn ability

Other classes have gained abilities/power over the last 10 years (maybe not wizards) while it seems everything sorcerers have loved about the class has been attacked/removed/nerffed in the name of balance without any off-setting gains. Maybe if sorcerers were thrown a bone it may make the rest of these changes bearable (a spoon full of sugar and all that).

For those of you leaving, I'd like to thank you all for your contributions to sorcery mechanics as well as rp. It sucks that we're losing advocates, I guess I may have to step up my "constructive criticisms." I'm sure you'll be back, this game is harder to kick than heroin...

[Rolton-Sammich]

714, it's nice but spending hours prepping runestones/sorting scrolls only to have them lock kills me. Not to mention the cost

Animate dead gather and carry tons of crap for a spell that lasts maybe 20 minutes. I've used this spell once

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/tumorous/wrong-mike.jpg

[Miscast]

Now if the Sorcerers/Sorceresses (folks who still play and folks who quit) were to show up at this years Simucon...... The powers that be might have to call Security to escort them off property.
Got db?

[DaCapn]

740 awesome, until other classes get the same damn ability
This is a general attitude that I never understood. Maybe my mentality is different because I naturally favor the rogue class (which doesn't seem to have much in the way of exclusive abilities). Why is it only good if no other profession is allowed to have anything like it? This sort of thing could very well be the root of the whiny sorcerer stereotype.

That being said, does another profession have cross-real transport?

[Joe]

You try to be an idiot. Congrats on your accomplishment, Prickles.

At least he's not making a thread to extol his own virtues for leaving. STFU.

[Warriorbird]

Awful convenient for a Simu proxy to say. Bitter the post can't be pulled here?

[StrayRogue]

Wha?

[Allereli]

At least he's not making a thread to extol his own virtues for leaving. STFU.

Holy shit I made a thread! what else do you do on a message board?

[crb]

This is a general attitude that I never understood. Maybe my mentality is different because I naturally favor the rogue class (which doesn't seem to have much in the way of exclusive abilities). Why is it only good if no other profession is allowed to have anything like it? This sort of thing could very well be the root of the whiny sorcerer stereotype.

That being said, does another profession have cross-real transport?
Most sorcerers don't care that other people have it. They care that other people have it at less cost. Because it is indicative again of the doublestandard on our profession in the realm of componentry. We didn't complain about chronomages, because its not cheaper.

And to say this behavior is a trait of sorcerers is laughable. The recent cleric turfwar to get 318 removed from scrolls. The rogue bitchfest of all bitchfests back in the late 90s to get 404 and 403 changed so they'd stop losing business to dabblers. All the bitchy squares when I merely suggested runestaff users get access to parry mastery at high expense.

The most vocal sorcerers, and in this I would include myself and those who have announced they're quitting, don't seem to care about what other professions can do. We all seem to believe a skill based system is better than a profession based system. Thats a philosphical difference, akin to capitalism vs. socialism. What we care about and complain about is a non level playing field in regards to standards, requirements, development resources.

[Fallen]

Strathspey agreed that adjacent realms chalk is a good solution to the 740 problem, and I imagine with the Sorcerer lore review we will be able to take a few people with us, thus balancing out the spell. 740 should be just where it should be...assuming Strathspey comes through.

[Warriorbird]

Most sorcerers don't care that other people have it. They care that other people have it at less cost. Because it is indicative again of the doublestandard on our profession in the realm of componentry. We didn't complain about chronomages, because its not cheaper.

And to say this behavior is a trait of sorcerers is laughable. The recent cleric turfwar to get 318 removed from scrolls. The rogue bitchfest of all bitchfests back in the late 90s to get 404 and 403 changed so they'd stop losing business to dabblers. All the bitchy squares when I merely suggested runestaff users get access to parry mastery at high expense.

The most vocal sorcerers, and in this I would include myself and those who have announced they're quitting, don't seem to care about what other professions can do. We all seem to believe a skill based system is better than a profession based system. Thats a philosphical difference, akin to capitalism vs. socialism. What we care about and complain about is a non level playing field in regards to standards, requirements, development resources.

-crb

I'd have never had a problem with your posting if not for your incessant hate for other people getting things.

With that said... I'll certainly defend your right to complain about your own status in general, especially here.

Heck... I'd even dig a Focused Implosion upgrade if they unbroke Open.

[Fallen]

I'd have never had a problem with your posting if not for your incessant hate for other people getting things.

With that said... I'll certainly defend your right to complain about your own status in general, especially here.

Heck... I'd even dig a Focused Implosion upgrade if they unbroke Open.

Do you believe people hunt primarily using Open Implosion? Honest question. It is certainly possible, but it isn't something I have ever seen or heard about. The tactic is used at times when hunting, but certainly not as a primary means of killing creatures. Who have you heard that does this, and where do they hunt? I use open implosion 1-3 times a month, and I figured I was likely among the top users of the spell in that form (outside of war camps).

Or is this more a CvC complaint?

[Warriorbird]

I've admittedly rarely seen it used in Prime for hunting in recent times. The times I have seen it used (usually while getting dragged along) it seemed pretty damn unstoppable.

CvC is secondary. I see sorcs complaining about CvC however and it IS an available tool.

[Asha]

Never used open implosion except for when I was on the deck, in offensive, then I'd spam 720 till RT let me.
Then you'd guarantee Nodyre would walk in at that exact moment and hurl something that's hit him on it's (and his) way into blackness.

I quit because I srsly had enough with components. The spells don't bother me so much as I only use 719, 717 and 705 to attack regularly.
Other than that I thank god I learned archery since most in Nelemar or OTF (where I will have to hunt for the rest of my life) can't defend against it.

[TheWitch]

It would be so damn helpful if everyone that thinks 720 is the king's nuts actually cast the spell. Not once. But as part of a hunting repretoire.

Anecdotally, I'm sure it seems like it rocks. That time it blew your (general) ass into next week, man, that sucked for you. Which does not make it some button of WIN.

It's a powerful spell. Used correctly, on the right target(s) in the right circumstances, it will kill frequently, open or closed.

The thing is, if discussions on the officials are any indication, we don't really use it, especially open, all that much for a variety of reasons.

People complain if we use it, and for legitimate reasons. It eats gear. Not just treasure, it could potentially eat someone's lost weapon that a critter is carrying. A very real issue, and not just in OTF.

It's against policy to use it "carelessly", especially open. Well, HTF do you define careless? What if I sent a thought via both amu and Voln net, peered and yelled before I cast it? Never mind I'd likely be dead by then anyway, since it's usually a spell of last resort (see above reason), could I be accused of being careless if someone had the misfortune of walking in AFTER I peered but BEFORE I yelled, and got caught up in the thinning air? You betcha, I've seen it happen, answered assists and made referrals about it when I was a host.

To use open 720 in a contained risk sort of way, you really need to use 720/417/720/417. That will wipe out anything in the room with you, including everything they might have been carrying. It should, however, avoid messing with anyone in adjacent rooms. And that's a lot of mana. Again, spell of last resort, the swarm has gotten beyond control by normal means.

Personally? I just leave the swarm, rather than deal with it.

The spell is powerful, but how powerful is it really if policy is stacked against our using it and the mechanics strongly discourage using it? And using it in CvC is not only very uncreative, but just asking to get yourself in trouble.

So, when exactly is it a good time to use this awesome spell?
Very very rarely. Which really takes away from the awesomeness.

[ElvenFury]

I've never understood why they don't make it a flag to set your AoE spells to player-friendly. It would save EVERYBODY an ass-load of trouble, and increase a lot of people's fun by about 100%.

[Rolton-Sammich]

To use open 720 in a contained risk sort of way, you really need to use 720/417/720/417. That will wipe out anything in the room with you, including everything they might have been carrying. It should, however, avoid messing with anyone in adjacent rooms. And that's a lot of mana. Again, spell of last resort, the swarm has gotten beyond control by normal means.
And considering how many creatures will shake stuns before you can get around to the second 720, even 720/417/720 isn't always that effective.

[Asha]

I've never understood why they don't make it a flag to set your AoE spells to player-friendly. It would save EVERYBODY an ass-load of trouble, and increase a lot of people's fun by about 100%.

It's a sexy thought but it still does't fix the problem that other peoples items will be gone forever with vaporization. Either off the floor or most likely in a critters hands.

[Warriorbird]

Your mileage logically varies. It's likely far easier to use pre high level. At the point myself and the sorceror I most hunted with were hunting... the combination of Open Implode and my mstrikes were pretty damn destructive.

Like I said... if Open Implode is so useless... I'd be all in favor of altering it and uptweaking Focused.

[ElvenFury]

It's a sexy thought but it still does't fix the problem that other peoples items will be gone forever with vaporization. Either off the floor or most likely in a critters hands.

It doesn't totally fix the problem with implosion, but there are many more AoE spells out there that go almost totally unused. Probably 95% of the player deaths to those spells are by accident, and just lead to needless arguments. For those who regularly CvC, it would be easy enough to write a quick enable/case/disable macro or script.

Admittedly, it's not 100% relevant. It's just one of those things that I never understood why it is the way it is.

[LordBacl]

Not to sound like a total dork, but have those that complain of boredom considered applying to become GMs? You could maybe get the opportunity to add to and develop the game in new ways.

Maybe even with a little time, patience, and luck get to use your ideas to change and develop the profession.

Just a thought.

[zhelas]

Open implosion... I think I used it once within the last 10 years.

I was on plane 3 in the rift. I put a lot of junk on the ground and waited for a Warlock to come in. I know the Witches and Warlocks are immune to spells. I was hoping that with an open implosion plus enough junk on the ground I would atleast hit the blasted creature if not kill it.

End result. The warlock laughed at me while it dodged 10 items being sucked into the void.

Peace

[zhelas]

The spell is powerful, but how powerful is it really if policy is stacked against our using it and the mechanics strongly discourage using it? And using it in CvC is not only very uncreative, but just asking to get yourself in trouble.

So, when exactly is it a good time to use this awesome spell?
Very very rarely. Which really takes away from the awesomeness.

:yeahthat:

I know we are not the only profession that has an AOE that really is worthless.. I am sure 525 comes to many folks minds.

[Warriorbird]

Not to sound like a total dork, but have those that complain of boredom considered applying to become GMs? You could maybe get the opportunity to add to and develop the game in new ways.

Maybe even with a little time, patience, and luck get to use your ideas to change and develop the profession.

Just a thought.

While it may seem easy for some folks to become staff... it is a political game and 'fit into the Simu mindset' game. I'm not sure the folks complaining would have all that great odds... and minus the programming exp would they be seriously working on professions?

I know a number of very talented (and non controversial) folks on staff who it took years to get there.

[StrayRogue]

While it may seem easy for some folks to become staff... it is a political game and 'fit into the Simu mindset' game. I'm not sure the folks complaining would have all that great odds... and minus the programming exp would they be seriously working on professions?

I know a number of very talented (and non controversial) folks on staff who it took years to get there.

Agreed, if you're in anyway controversial, you have no chance. Most GMs are people you've never heard of.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. "God that player annoys me." bias is also a lot more common than 'I'm gonna cheat for my friend.' bias.

[LordBacl]

True, but some people may think they are more controversial than they really are. It doesn't cost anything to apply, and it sounds like some of the people here might enjoy the ability to shape the game from the other side of the tables. I'm not a sorcerer, but there's some good ideas being floated.

[Warriorbird]

CE GMs can shape professions... but it is more typically things like writing guilds, playing NPCs, maybe doing some messaging...

[Rolton-Sammich]

I've never understood why they don't make it a flag to set your AoE spells to player-friendly. It would save EVERYBODY an ass-load of trouble, and increase a lot of people's fun by about 100%.
If it was decided that AoE spells should all go player friendly, the spells would beaten unrecognizable with the nerf stick.

Nerf go liek this: 525/710/720--> :club: <--Simu

Besides, one never has that problem in Plat. I saw someone in my hunting ground the other day and I was all OMGWTFBBQLOLWUT but then I saw they were on an escort and it all made sense.

I don't know if wizards get more Swarming done here in The Instance That Time Forgot, but even while blissfully unconcerned about other players I don't get a lot of mileage out of 710 or 720. (Though that's looking just at sub-50.)

[GS4_HappyTimez]

Good riddance. Most of these people will just return in a month or two when monks are released. Trust me.

[TheWitch]

:rofl:

[Stanley Burrell]

Good riddance. Most of these people will just return in a month or two when monks are released.

First of all, here's a picture of an ostridge:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9DX1TjOSyWo/SK3D_L44i8I/AAAAAAAAABU/w0VDYvxXN6M/s320/blank_stare.jpg


Trust me.

Ah, alright, sorry about that.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Good riddance. Most of these people will just return in a month or two when monks are released. Trust me.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/tumorous/553px-Lol_que.jpg

[GS4_HappyTimez]

Ostridge, huh?

[iJin]

:rofl:

[zhelas]

If the hole fits.

[Proxy]

I use open implosion 1-3 times a month, and I figured I was likely among the top users of the spell in that form (outside of war camps).

Non-pvp based. I was probably the most prolific user/abuser of open implode, up until I quit a few months back. Just to give you an idea, my definition of "casual" use of open implode was about 3 casts during a small string of hunts. When I was in the broken lands I would actually 50/50 702/o720+o710. 702 till swarm then after I've the collective junk of a few on the ground post search, I would open implode. Along with open 710. And even with 30+ items on the ground and the first round flair from 710 stunning most of the critters in the swarm, 720 rarely cleared a room.

Not really sure where this would of put me in the no. of cast per month but as it was in bone spear when I left I would have to say that I was pushing 50-150 open implodes a month and when I was in the broken lands that no. was more like 200-300. So I guess I can safely add open implode to scroll infusing as probably greatest abuser of the spells in the last few years.

Coincidently, even with the level of use I got out of 720, in the last 3 years or so, I've only had 3 or 4 "incidents" and have never once been wagged at by a GM for what I was doing.(at least in regards to open 720/710 and 714) :>

/babble

[crb]

If you didn't get your auction item nerfed, you were abusing scroll infusion enough. It is written.

[Proxy]

huh? I've never once owned an auction item. I r Confused...

[crb]

So I guess I can safely add open implode to scroll infusing as probably greatest abuser of the spells in the last few years.

I was saying that if you didn't cause a nerf you weren't the greatest abuser. nod nod wink wink bob's your uncle.

[Proxy]

True, but as I see it. The only way they could nerf 714 and 720 any more would be to remove them from the list. :shrug:

Edit: Which I would actually welcome in regard to 714, but only if they made it apart of say a scroll creation/maintenance guild skill for all pure professions.

[Tolwynn]

Don't tempt them, they wouldn't be the first spells players cried about that got removed.

[Proxy]

personally, as I understand it, sorcery having a spell like 714 should of never happened. The concept of mana harnessing and manipulation is something I've always thought wizards where supposed to be the masters of.

Edit: I'll never/have never cried about the profession loosing something, so long as that change helps to maintain the integrity of what it should be/is. I'd rather something get pulled because it makes no since, then for something to be left alone simply on the account of legacy. And as I've aways viewed sorcery as a profession that is supposed to be the least interested/capable of "utility" based spells, 714 never seemed to fit. At least how the spell currently functions. 740 on the other end of the ladder fits beautifully. Dimensional manipulation, controlled destruction of planar boundaries, etc. 714 is nothing more then a hand full of runes and mana dumping. In other words, its charge item but for scrolls. Which is a wizard thing.

[Fallen]

True, but as I see it. The only way they could nerf 714 and 720 any more would be to remove them from the list. :shrug:

Edit: Which I would actually welcome in regard to 714, but only if they made it apart of say a scroll creation/maintenance guild skill for all pure professions.

I also wouldn't mind if they took Scroll Infusion from sorcerers and gave it to the masses, as so long as sorcerers could still learn it and they gave us something pretty amazing in its place.

[Rolton-Sammich]

It'd have to be splendifuckincredamazing. And I think we can both agree that ain't likely.

[Fallen]

It'd have to be splendifuckincredamazing. And I think we can both agree that ain't likely.

No, it won't happen. However, the ability to create scrolls will likely be a pure-wide guild release.

[Asha]

lol are you high?
No dude they'd add even more procedures and COMPONENTS!

In front of a critter in Nelemar and you want to use 720?
Well Sorcerer have just become even more unique!!
It's easy kids!

First quickly reach into your sorcerous pouch / backpack and pull out your massive troll king bleached skull.
You can find these simply by killing a massive troll king, preserving his body with crimson crystals and then through a process of runestones and chanting and grinding and mixing you will have yourself a bleached skull.

THEN, (you may have to stow your weapon for this part!) hold the skull in your left hand and take a rune-wand you should have prepared earlier from the corpse of a vaespillon which you have killed and covered with 2x the normal amount of crimsons crystals removed its finger through the sorcerous ability of 'finger removing' (you will know from learning it for 5 years at the guild) then while kneeling draw out your Do'skiliannecca runestone (not the Do'skilannecca runestone it's often confused with which always ends in death hahahah good times) and paint a symbol of 'vaespillon finger removed turn into wand RUNE' on the finger you've removed then cast 750 (create item not major demon lol but they're RSN promise ;) ) to create a fucking rune-wand.

Kneel infront of the critter in nelemar and wave the skull at critter while chanting 720 and you will load up the spell, quickly combine the skull with the rune-wand and you'll have a bleached troll king skull totem which you should continue to wave at the critter.
Now to PREP 720 (but DONT cast, this will kill you and lose you exp) and chant the prepared 720 into your totem using this sytax..

Chant ADD 720 to MY bleached troll king skull totem SPELL wave ACTIVATOR.
not = Chant ADD 720 to bleached troll king skull totem SPELL wave ACTIVATOR. lol as this will result in your items being disintegrated and an INSTANT backlash attack from the spirit of the dead troll king which will be much more powerful now due to sorcery and it's immense power!

.. then quickly hurl the totem at the critter which depending on a hidden roll, SHOULD stick to the critters armor (not plate, leather or chain armor) and then you fucking start phase two of this incredibly powerful and profession defining spell.
Quickly kneel and lol I hope you have your RUNE-RIbbons and RUNE-Phials at the ready because you're going to need them, and HURRY the creature could attack you at any moment..

[Proxy]

hmm, I like the idea of rune-wands... just saying...

[Atlanteax]

Me thinks Drayal is frustrated.

[Asha]

:lol:, nah.

[crb]

personally, as I understand it, sorcery having a spell like 714 should of never happened. The concept of mana harnessing and manipulation is something I've always thought wizards where supposed to be the masters of.

Edit: I'll never/have never cried about the profession loosing something, so long as that change helps to maintain the integrity of what it should be/is. I'd rather something get pulled because it makes no since, then for something to be left alone simply on the account of legacy. And as I've aways viewed sorcery as a profession that is supposed to be the least interested/capable of "utility" based spells, 714 never seemed to fit. At least how the spell currently functions. 740 on the other end of the ladder fits beautifully. Dimensional manipulation, controlled destruction of planar boundaries, etc. 714 is nothing more then a hand full of runes and mana dumping. In other words, its charge item but for scrolls. Which is a wizard thing.
Nope. Sorcerers have been documented "masters of mana" for at least 10 years. That has long been the official line from Simu. Going back to even Romulus days. This can be seen in our mana control training costs. Even EMC, we can train cheaper than a wizard. We also ahve spells like mana disruption, and dark catalyst. This is important to scrolls in that our hybrid status allows us to manipulate the mana of a wider variety of scrolls.

Wizards were set as the masters of physical or elemental manipulation. Putting magic into hard things. Wizards are 0/1 in MIU, sorcerers are 0/2.

The one inconsistency out there is AS. Wizards are 0/1 and yet sorcerers who are the scroll profession are 0/2. Wizards and sorcerers otherwise have pretty much identical training costs, and get crushed by empath & cleric cheapo training. However, if the 0/4 wizard EMC is offset by the 0/1 MIU, there is no offset for the 0/1 AS (or the 2/1 spell aiming for that matter). Giving wizards a slight edge, and making sorcerers the sole title holders of most expensive pure training cost.

In a more perfect world wizards would have 0/1 MIU and be able to triple. Sorcerers would have 0/1 AS and be able to triple. And both would have 0/3 HP (and perhaps slightly cheaper lore or MC) to offset cleric & empath cheapo physical skills.

[Asha]

Taken straight from the play.net site description of sorcerers..



Hybrid spell users who rely on both the Elemental and Spiritual Spheres, Sorcerers concentrate on spells of disruption and destruction. Their primary spells deal with the annihilation of animate and inanimate matter. While this is a difficult profession to learn early on, Sorcerers have the potential to be extremely powerful and deadly. They can not, however, learn as many utility and defensive spells as do Wizards or Clerics.

I think (wished) that would have given everyone or someone else 714 and given us something awesome(er).

[Proxy]

so wizards are the enchanters(armor, weapons, wands, etc)
and sorcerers are the inscribers(glyphs, wards, runes, etc)
& Clerics/Empaths are Estild's little whores. etc

Makes since actually.

I still think 714 would be a better general guild skill then a space hog on a single profession list, but it at least makes a bit more since as to why its there in the first place.

[TheWitch]

That shit has been the same for 12 years. It doesn't reflect the reality of sorcery any more than sorcery currently reflects the reality of the game.

[Proxy]

That shit has been the same for 12 years. It doesn't reflect the reality of sorcery any more than sorcery currently reflects the reality of the game.

:yeahthat: and what Rheisia said in that is my single biggest issue w/ GM's in regard to the profession coupled with the lack of response in regard to the actual official direction/definition of what sorcery is NOW. We all know what it was, but g-d forbid if you try and find out what it IS any more.

[StrayRogue]

My concept of wizardry was direct damage spells, and lots of utility. They were also the masters of items in terms of creation, charging, enchanting etc. I agree they should have gotten Scroll Infusion.

Sorcerers on the other hands were far more geared to be solo orientated. They have many utility powers, but most are only useful to themselves.

[Proxy]

my current understand of what sorcery is, by virtue of the current structure of pt costs and profession based penalties is that sorcery is nothing more then meddling hedge wizards, or if you like jack-alls. Student of many, master of none. Kinda the "counterfeit" pure. Which makes me sad :(

[Asha]

My concept of wizardry was direct damage spells, and lots of utility. They were also the masters of items in terms of creation, charging, enchanting etc. I agree they should have gotten Scroll Infusion.

Sorcerers on the other hands were far more geared to be solo orientated.

I would have been happy with that.

[TheWitch]

My concept of wizardry was direct damage spells, and lots of utility. They were also the masters of items in terms of creation, charging, enchanting etc. I agree they should have gotten Scroll Infusion.

Sorcerers on the other hands were far more geared to be solo orientated. They have many utility powers, but most are only useful to themselves.

But see, then, they would have had to let our combat spells actually work without a ridiculous amount of plinking.

And that could not be allowed to happen, because we'd be overpowered.

As it stands now, many of us solo anyway simply out of embarassment.

[StrayRogue]

I don't see sorcerers struggling, really, when it comes to hunting.

[Proxy]

But see, then, they would have had to let our combat spells actually work without a ridiculous amount of plinking.

And that could not be allowed to happen, because we'd be overpowered.

As it stands now, many of us solo anyway simply out of embarassment.


I'll echo that, I've always flown solo on hunts. Originaly because I didn't need the help. Any more I had issues trying to keep up. Sucks when you pair up with a warrior or a cleric and by the end of the hunt they are 10 kills to your 3 on average.

[TheWitch]

I don't see sorcerers struggling, really, when it comes to hunting.

Above level 50, not really.
At cap, no.

Struggle isn't the word, really, either.

Our spells plink. Cast them enough times, the target dies.
Combine that with a list overly loaded with bullshit DOT?
That's not a struggle, no.
Is it fun? Not really.

My rogue does not whittle to the extent my sorcerer plinked, at comparable levels, and my rogue is a locksmith build.

[StrayRogue]

I agree with that, yeah. I don't see it changing in the near future though ^^

[Fallen]

No class has struggled at hunting since they gave empaths boneshatter and clerics smite/bane. With the addition of those spells, no one profession can say they couldn't hunt 0-cap. Viability isn't really a factor in consideration of spell/class improvement anymore.