The LACK OF DECORUM in the OFFICIAL FORUM

[Rolton-Sammich]

I considered it, but I think I <3 Oscuro's quote more, as we tend to end up at odds more than anyone else. He keeps nerfing the mechanics I love.


I'm just catching up but...QQ.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Well said, Oscuro. Good to see you're in tune with the wants and needs of the playerbase as opposed to 1 or 2 specific professions. Go TEAM!

It's all in fun.........right?

You're right. I guess this Rift creature I'm coding is just for Clerics and Empaths. Or the Web spell. Or the RR hunting I did. Or the arashan. Or the demon verbs. Need I continue or do you get the point that you're wrong?

I guess I would mention how you pulled Raise Dead from genning scrolls and gave Clerics X-realms transport after saying only Savants would be getting it would be a good start, but hey. It might appear a bit crass to point these things out in such a public forum. I don't know how buddy buddy you are with Emeradan, but this is off-topic and he doesn't like me much.

Have a good one, mate. Last volley is yours.

No need to be so concise; let's take this over to Sorcerer Banter so we can stay on topic and others can join in the fun. Why don't you start by quoting the conversation thusfar and then list all other gripes you have with things I've done in the past? Allow me to remind of you the 202 nerf and I'm sure some people have lingering issues with the sanctuary updates. I'll meet you over there in 2 hours (I have a seminar I need to attend) and I'll be sure to address any concerns you have.

tl;dr: Evarin was all "(fuckin' Oscuro)" And then Oscuro was all "Boo hoo, bish" and then Evarin's all "whatevah you mofo" and then Oscuro's all like "WHAT BITCH LET'S STEP OUTSIDE."

OH SHIT, SON!

IT IS ON!

[BriarFox]

Too bad Emeradan will jump on it like a shark on blood once he notices. It goes a long way to deflate the myth of the patriarchal and caring GM that Simu likes to present.

[Ignot]

GS FORUM FIGHT!!

[Fallen]

Figured this would make its way over here eventually. Here was my last response to Oscuro.



Oh, lets. It is REALLY the first thing on my list to do is argue with a GM over a comment I made in gest damn near what? A WEEK ago? What are you truly hoping to accomplish... score a nice round of GOTCHA points and a few LAWLs at my expense? Why don't you actually show some respect for your position as a GM, and let this little spat of ours go? Or should I just not cross you because I WILL LOSE??

[Rolton-Sammich]

Boooooo.

Fight! Fight! Fight!

[ViridianAsp]

Figured this would make its way over here eventually. Here was my last response to Oscuro.

...I like Oscuro..you know, because he makes my profession awesome. but yeah dude, what's with him Hijacking the Solhaven folder for this little rant?

[Fallen]

...I like Oscuro..you know, because he makes my profession awesome. but yeah dude, what's with him Hijacking the Solhaven folder for this little rant?

I know i'm an asshole. I know I go off topic sometimes. I'm a player. He is a damned GM. He bumped a fucking Week old thread to take a completely off-topic shot at me, then CONTINUED to argue with me in a completely off-topic fashion. Oscuro is indeed a workhorse, but Old Dude has his flaws. That's for damn sure.

[Izzy]

Oh, lets. It is REALLY the first thing on my list to do is argue with a GM over a comment I made in gest damn near what? A WEEK ago? What are you truly hoping to accomplish... score a nice round of GOTCHA points and a few LAWLs at my expense? Why don't you actually show some respect for your position as a GM, and let this little spat of ours go? Or should I just not cross you because I WILL LOSE??

hahahahaha. Winner winner, chicken dinner.

[BriarFox]

I know i'm an asshole. I know I go off topic sometimes. I'm a player. He is a damned GM. He bumped a fucking Week old thread to take a completely off-topic shot at me, then CONTINUED to argue with me in a completely off-topic fashion. Oscuro is indeed a workhorse, but Old Dude has his flaws. That's for damn sure.

It was pretty frickin' ridiculous.

[CrystalTears]

What, GMs aren't allowed to get sick of the same bitching and can't vent? It's not like Fallen doesn't read and comment in damn near every topic in the officials.

(I wasn't sure if this needed to be in italics or not.)

[DCSL]

This is hilarious. Please, carry on.

[Rimalon]

I was so disappointed you guys didn't take it over to the Sorcerer Banter folder.

Also, if he's coding a Rift Creature, and Mestys is (supposedly) focusing all his megapowers on the Rift Area...

Mmmm. That shit's probably coming out sometime this summer.

[Rolton-Sammich]

It's not too late. Someone can sift through Evarin's posts, gather up a shopping list of complaints, and write it up it in his stead, concluding with "And I can't even POST what he said about yo MOMMA."

[Danical]

What are the gripes though?

It's Contiguous Realm Transport (not Cross Realm) and Raise Dead on scrolls?

202 was supposed to be changed FOREVER ago. What other defensive spell provides benefits to another on the basis of the caster's spell ranks? I can't think of one.

[Ignot]

Boooooo.

Fight! Fight! Fight!

I heard they took this fight to the streets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpmvFK02jY8) shun!

[LMingrone]

What, GMs aren't allowed to get sick of the same bitching and can't vent? It's not like Fallen doesn't read and comment in damn near every topic in the officials.

I think they're aloud to vent, but, if I was to vent to my customers I'd be fired. I can see them deleting posts and being pissed. If I was a GM I'd probably hate you all. But I wouldn't rant to you, you're paying me.

Just seems Simu has become more of a high school lunch room and less of a business that is worried about running a business.

I've always liked the game, but I think most people on here would say that the quality, and respect from GMs specifically, has gotten MUCH worse than it was. I like most of the GMs, but alot of them can't take any criticism without turning all emo and argumentative. Normal people, who get a complaint at work try their best to coddle the PAYING CUSTOMER.

It's the main reason I don't play anymore.

[Sean]

I don't understand why it has to be so catch22. If GMs don't post they are assholes, if they post and vent they are assholes, etc. You gotta take the good with the bad.

[CrystalTears]

I think they're aloud to vent, but, if I was to vent to my customers I'd be fired. I can see them deleting posts and being pissed. If I was a GM I'd probably hate you all. But I wouldn't rant to you, you're paying me.If most, if even half of them, got paid then yes I'd see the argument. But seeing as how they're volunteer help, I'm not surprised when days and weeks and months and YEARS of bitching go on and they snap on occasion. Not even in the customer support world is being told you suck on a daily basis something the rep has to tolerate, even when they get paid.


Just seems Simu has become more of a high school lunch room and less of a business that is worried about running a business.

I've always liked the game, but I think most people on here would say that the quality, and respect from GMs specifically, has gotten MUCH worse than it was. I like most of the GMs, but alot of them can't take any criticism without turning all emo and argumentative. Normal people, who get a complaint at work try their best to coddle the PAYING CUSTOMER.Personally I think they're being more vocal now than ever before, which may be the cause of people seeing the game as getting worse.

I'm sure a lot of it is deserved, and Lord knows I'm not a huge GS fan these days, but sometimes the customers in this game are not always right. They don't always know what's good for the game anymore than the GMs do. And we're all human. So in a game like GS, I don't get upset with GMs when they tell it like it is or tell someone who is a constant nag to STFU. I'd rather they give any kind of feedback than none at all.

[Fallen]

Guy bumped a week old + thread to start an off-topic flame war. Not exactly productive "feedback". Oscuro has always had an axe to grind with me, i'm just surprised he took it this far.

[CrystalTears]

Guy bumped a week old + thread to start an off-topic flame war. Not exactly productive "feedback". Oscuro has always had an axe to grind with me, i'm just surprised he took it this far.
Because you're a pain in the ass. :tongue:

[LMingrone]

If most, if even half of them, got paid then yes I'd see the argument. But seeing as how they're volunteer help, I'm not surprised when days and weeks and months and YEARS of bitching go on and they snap on occasion. Not even in the customer support world is being told you suck on a daily basis something the rep has to tolerate, even when they get paid.

I agree with all you've said. I still think that even if you're a volunteer, you still have to control all of that without disrespecting the customer. I wish they actually got paid more for the work they do, they do deserve it.

The Officials, and some of the stuff they post on there is just childish though. Get's annoying when you can't post something in a civil manner that isn't what certain GMs want to hear. Most of folders are fine. But, you can tell some GMs just hate certain people and will just delete their posts for no good reason.

/rant over. Love ya CT

[CrystalTears]

I agree with all you've said. I still think that even if you're a volunteer, you still have to control all of that without disrespecting the customer. I wish they actually got paid more for the work they do, they do deserve it.

The Officials, and some of the stuff they post on there is just childish though. Get's annoying when you can't post something in a civil manner that isn't what certain GMs want to hear. Most of folders are fine. But, you can tell some GMs just hate certain people and will just delete their posts for no good reason.

/rant over. Love ya CT
No worries, I know what you're getting at. It could just be that I'm desensitized from so many years playing GS and being on the PC that I'm to the point that I don't see what difference it makes anymore. People are worrying so much about how someone says something and wind up not focusing on what is being said.

The GMs in this game aren't really the problem, it's their managers. The ones who approve and deny the projects. Coders just do what they are asked to code. I'm betting that most of them don't like some of the projects they are on, but do it for the love of the game. Eventually that love for the game changes the more people try to fuck with it. Then you don't want to see the game you love turn into shit and they quit (that's just my theory). And frankly, with the way people complain about this game, I can't understand why ANYONE would want to work for Simu. I applaud those who give it the fighting chance to save this game I once loved. I also don't fault them for giving people who think they know better the finger.

If they'd get rid of the Emeradan mentality of squelching ideas that aren't Simu sanctioned and just let people say whatever the hell they want to say, I'd bet that a lot more would get done on the scale where it would make nearly everyone happy, or at least feel a little better. Having NO place to vent has to suck after a while.

[LMingrone]

.

Well said. I also believe if the boards we're more "open", that it would fix the problem. I just hate how they can't take criticism, and at least have a healthy discussion about players' dislikes. They seem to take it as a personal attack anytime someone doesn't agree with them. I honestly couldn't care less, but I'm just bored and adding to the conversation.

[CrystalTears]

They seem to take it as a personal attack anytime someone doesn't agree with them.This applies as much to the players as it does to the GMs.

I'm not a GM fan! But I'm also not one to jump on the GM hating bandwagon since I know what coders go through and they can be rather attached to their work, bad idea or not.

[ElvenFury]

The GMs in this game aren't really the problem, it's their managers. The ones who approve and deny the projects. Coders just do what they are asked to code. I'm betting that most of them don't like some of the projects they are on, but do it for the love of the game.

If they'd get rid of the Emeradan mentality of squelching ideas that aren't Simu sanctioned and just let people say whatever the hell they want to say, I'd bet that a lot more would get done on the scale where it would make nearly everyone happy, or at least feel a little better. Having NO place to vent has to suck after a while.

Just curious; why is it that you give most GMs the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're just following orders, but then you come down on Emeradan? I've always gotten the impression that most of the legitimate complaints against him stem from situations where he's probably told to remove threads that are "bad for Simu's interests", at least in the eyes of his management.

[BriarFox]

Well said. I also believe if the boards we're more "open", that it would fix the problem. I just hate how they can't take criticism, and at least have a healthy discussion about players' dislikes. They seem to take it as a personal attack anytime someone doesn't agree with them. I honestly couldn't care less, but I'm just bored and adding to the conversation.

:yeahthat:

[CrystalTears]

Just curious; why is it that you give most GMs the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're just following orders, but then you come down on Emeradan? I've always gotten the impression that most of the legitimate complaints against him stem from situations where he's probably told to remove threads that are "bad for Simu's interests", at least in the eyes of his management.
That's why I said the Emeradan mentality, whether it stems from him or elsewhere. I don't care if he's the one who decides to take it away or someone else, that thought process needs to go away entirely. Manage the boards to keep it on topic, but not to stifle conversation.

That said, I've seen logs of Emeradan being as much of an asshole to customers in the game as well as his heavy-handedness in the forms, so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of those are his decision as well.

I won't lie, I'm not a fan of Emeradan nor Andraste, so I'll be biased about what people say about them. Those two take how they handle things to a whole other level. To an unhealthy, stupid level.

[BriarFox]

Some posts were hidden in this thread. If you did NOT receive an email from me, then your post was simply flagged as a "Thread Hidden" post, which isn't any kind of boards violation at all. If you still want a copy of your post, drop me an email with a link to THIS post, and I'll backtrack and email you with a copy.

~
GM Emeradan
GS4-EMERADAN@PLAY.NET
Forums Manager
Bugs Manager
~
GemStone IV: One MMORPG to Rule Them All.
"Master of the Black Helicopters." -- BROWNA94


Kerr-whimper.

[BriarFox]

Oh, but he left Oscuro's first jackass post in:


>>I considered it, but I think I <3 Oscuro's quote more, as we tend to end up at odds more than anyone else. He keeps nerfing the mechanics I love.

I'm just catching up but...QQ.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team
Voln/CoL Guru

[LMingrone]

That QQ is a nice touch. Very professional.

[Fallen]

Of course he did. I crossed him. I lost.

[radamanthys]

Someone needs to give Em the "Dildo on a drill" treatment.

Show him what it's like.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Someone needs to give Em the "Dildo on a drill" treatment.

Show him what it's like.

Uh...

Not it.

[droit]

I'm on the fence about this one. Evarin, I like you, I think you have great ideas for the game and you communicate well. However, I do think you snipe at the staff far too often and often unproductively. So while Oscuro breached proper customer service policies in this instance, I'd say you provoked him. Imagine the frustration of being called out by name over and over and over for things that are often not even your decision. Obviously it wasn't necessary for him to revive a week-dead thread, but these things build up.

Basically, Oscuro fucked up, but I don't think you're blameless.

[BigWorm]

I'm on the fence about this one. Evarin, I like you, I think you have great ideas for the game and you communicate well. However, I do think you snipe at the staff far too often and often unproductively. So while Oscuro breached proper customer service policies in this instance, I'd say you provoked him. Imagine the frustration of being called out by name over and over and over for things that are often not even your decision. Obviously it wasn't necessary for him to revive a week-dead thread, but these things build up.

Basically, Oscuro fucked up, but I don't think you're blameless.

This sums up how I feel pretty well too.

[That Jay]

The GMs in this game aren't really the problem

Some of them are.

[Fallen]

Oscuro isn't one of them.

[Morrff]

I'm on the fence about this one. Evarin, I like you, I think you have great ideas for the game and you communicate well. However, I do think you snipe at the staff far too often and often unproductively. So while Oscuro breached proper customer service policies in this instance, I'd say you provoked him. Imagine the frustration of being called out by name over and over and over for things that are often not even your decision. Obviously it wasn't necessary for him to revive a week-dead thread, but these things build up.

Basically, Oscuro fucked up, but I don't think you're blameless.

x3

[That Jay]

Oscuro isn't one of them.

Oh I agree.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't understand why it has to be so catch22. If GMs don't post they are assholes, if they post and vent they are assholes, etc. You gotta take the good with the bad.Or they can post and work like Coase, and be universally beloved and respected. I would recommend that option for current and future GMs.

Also, it's hard to classify a post whose entire message is "QQ" as "venting". It's at best a poorly considered sucker punch and at worst a deeply contrived provocation - neither of which should be accepted from anybody, let alone someone in a position of authority.
Imagine the frustration of being called out by name over and over and over for things that are often not even your decision. Obviously it wasn't necessary for him to revive a week-dead thread, but these things build up.It's not that hard to take a breath and act like a grownup. For instance, I would probably have emailed something like:

Evarin, I understand and empathize with your position. Though I cannot and will not go into detail, I want to assure you as a fellow player that the decisions you refer to as "nerfs" were not intended as personal or professional slights. Though I feel that you have unfairly singled me out and would appreciate your no longer doing so, both I and the Simutronics staff stand by our changes as improvements for the game as a whole.

Note how nothing needs to be said in public, let alone anything incendiary or childish. I don't have the slightest idea if any of it is true, or if Evarin's player has behaved as you've described, but I'm fairly certain this kind of response wouldn't have generated anywhere near the bad feeling of "QQ". I don't think I'm alone in wanting to be treated as a person rather than an adversary.

[Methais]

tl;dr: Evarin was all "(fuckin' Oscuro)" And then Oscuro was all "Boo hoo, bish" and then Evarin's all "whatevah you mofo" and then Oscuro's all like "WHAT BITCH LET'S STEP OUTSIDE."

OH SHIT, SON!

IT IS ON!

And then I was like
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/907239422_l.jpg

and then Emeradan was like
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/Hijacker12.jpg

[ElvenFury]

Or they can post and work like Coase, and be universally beloved and respected.

Coase has a boatload of good juju going for him after his spectacular re-entrance into GMhood, but before he left he had a reputation for being almost non-existant on the boards, and frankly, not the greatest communicator. He was the "squares" guru for a while, and I don't think anyone even knew it. I've got a lot of respect for the guy, and I like a lot of the work that he's done, but I wouldn't necessarily hold him up as the ideal GM-style for posting.

[Latrinsorm]

Coase has a boatload of good juju going for him after his spectacular re-entrance into GMhood, but before he left he had a reputation for being almost non-existant on the boards, and frankly, not the greatest communicator. He was the "squares" guru for a while, and I don't think anyone even knew it. I've got a lot of respect for the guy, and I like a lot of the work that he's done, but I wouldn't necessarily hold him up as the ideal GM-style for posting.I don't know how rogues thought of him, but the guy was practically canonized on the warrior boards before he left. The only time I ever recall someone complaining about his absence was that guy who said warriors would be phased out by Summer '08 or whatever. Coase was the figurehead for the CM list (along with Solli), Sunfist, the Adventurer's Guild, redoing the CM list, berserk changes, mstrike changes, plus he was remarkably adept at addressing player-found problems (adept to the point where people began emailing him any old GS question they could find because it was conceivable he'd answer it).

[phantasm]

Just as a point of reference, I downloaded one of the multitude of free, small-player base (30-90 people) MMORPG's on Sunday. I played for about 6 hours getting my little toon all leveled up and fit out with noob gear, then I screwed up a quest and said "Damnit I just screwed up that quest" on the global help channel. The help channel had been quite for the entire night and I think I was the first new player on the server in a couple years. Suddenly every player starts bashing me for swearing in the help channel, and the GM on duty whispers to me that I'm not allowed to swear on the help channel and I am now banned from the game. WTF.

[BigWorm]

I don't know how rogues thought of him, but the guy was practically canonized on the warrior boards before he left. The only time I ever recall someone complaining about his absence was that guy who said warriors would be phased out by Summer '08 or whatever. Coase was the figurehead for the CM list (along with Solli), Sunfist, the Adventurer's Guild, redoing the CM list, berserk changes, mstrike changes, plus he was remarkably adept at addressing player-found problems (adept to the point where people began emailing him any old GS question they could find because it was conceivable he'd answer it).

Rogue development? In Gemstone?

[grenthor]

I see your first comment as being weird but harmless. I see his first response as being standard stupid internet humor. After that, you both got stupid and whiny. Your next response was uncalled for and childish and so was his response.

It takes 2 of you to argue. You both were out of line. You can't take a shot like you did and then use the "He's a GM he can't respond" quip when he shoots back at you.

While you're right and he shouldn't have - neither of you should have taken the shots you did on the open boards. Take it to email and have your internet fight and get it out of your system so you can both get over it and move on.

[grenthor]

And considering just how often people here love to use qq or qq moar along with various pictures of the same, I don't see how anyone can think of it as anything more than a stupid pointless bit of text along the lines of rofl and die in a fire. You're just attaching hate to it because it comes from a gm and not a player.

[Khariz]

Just as a point of reference, I downloaded one of the multitude of free, small-player base (30-90 people) MMORPG's on Sunday. I played for about 6 hours getting my little toon all leveled up and fit out with noob gear, then I screwed up a quest and said "Damnit I just screwed up that quest" on the global help channel. The help channel had been quite for the entire night and I think I was the first new player on the server in a couple years. Suddenly every player starts bashing me for swearing in the help channel, and the GM on duty whispers to me that I'm not allowed to swear on the help channel and I am now banned from the game. WTF.

What game was that, so I can make sure to never play it.

[radamanthys]

or play it and really piss in the cornflakes of a bunch of tight-assed neckbeards.

[ElvenFury]

I don't know how rogues thought of him, but the guy was practically canonized on the warrior boards before he left. The only time I ever recall someone complaining about his absence was that guy who said warriors would be phased out by Summer '08 or whatever. Coase was the figurehead for the CM list (along with Solli), Sunfist, the Adventurer's Guild, redoing the CM list, berserk changes, mstrike changes, plus he was remarkably adept at addressing player-found problems (adept to the point where people began emailing him any old GS question they could find because it was conceivable he'd answer it).

Yeah, Coase is a fucking work horse. I know he's done a ton of great systems for the game. All I'm saying is that he's not always the best communicator, although he's been pretty awesome with this armor update. His MO tends to be to drop a major new system in our laps out of nowhere, and then let us go nuts with it for a while, and pick it apart on the boards, and then he fixes whatever issues he wants to, when he wants to. Which I can totally understand, since he's probably burnt out from coding whatever massive system for six months to a year, but he does tend to take things too far coughcman purekillcough, and it can be frustrating to go several days or weeks without hearing from a GM when you know something needs to be changed.

All in all, it's a small criticism regarding an awesome guy; all I'm saying is that he's not the model of GM posting, imho.

[Belnia]

If I were a GM, I would quite honestly never, ever under any circumstances post in the sorcerer folder. It's best sorcerers don't know you exist as a GM. Lay low, avoid their forums. The second you post, even if it's an update, you will immediately be expected to revolutionize the profession, provide 3 new spells and fix Animate Dead. Everything you do will be quietly applauded and then backhanded compliments passed around about, "Oh, that's a wonderful fix/change/idea, but what can you do about X, Y and Z?"

I don't think it's a reasonable expectation. I also wouldn't mind seeing a GM assigned exclusively to sorcerers, but I think all the venom there has made no GM really want the posting, so it's a two way problem that we've had for a while, and it's only getting worse.

[BriarFox]

If I were a GM, I would quite honestly never, ever under any circumstances post in the sorcerer folder. It's best sorcerers don't know you exist as a GM. Lay low, avoid their forums. The second you post, even if it's an update, you will immediately be expected to revolutionize the profession, provide 3 new spells and fix Animate Dead. Everything you do will be quietly applauded and then backhanded compliments passed around about, "Oh, that's a wonderful fix/change/idea, but what can you do about X, Y and Z?"

I don't think it's a reasonable expectation. I also wouldn't mind seeing a GM assigned exclusively to sorcerers, but I think all the venom there has made no GM really want the posting, so it's a two way problem that we've had for a while, and it's only getting worse.

It's probably a problem inherent to what type of personality is attracted to the sorcerer profession ...

[droit]

While of course the ranger profession attracts only the best and the brightest.
CAN I GET AN AMEN??

[Fallen]

I think what brings the rest of the professions together most is their constant whining about how the sorcerer profession whines. It just shines class, and in no way makes them feel better about when they too bitch about something endlessly. At least they're not sorcerers.

Can I get a, "650 SUUUUUCKS!", up in this biatch?

[BriarFox]

While of course the ranger profession attracts only the best and the brightest.
CAN I GET AN AMEN??

AAAMEN, Brother! ::beats his tamborine::

[CrystalTears]

While of course the ranger profession attracts only the best and the brightest.
CAN I GET AN AMEN??
AMEN! :clap:

[Stanley Burrell]

IF Nuadja has a tambourine THEN it must be TRUE.

Edited to Add: JesusJosephMaryJehovaAmen-brotha'. And CT beat me. Fatally.

[Izzy]

I think what brings the rest of the professions together most is their constant whining about how the sorcerer profession whines. It just shines class, and in no way makes them feel better about when they too bitch about something endlessly. At least they're not sorcerers.

Can I get a, "650 SUUUUUCKS!", up in this biatch?

650 rocks. Rangers FTMFW.

[BriarFox]

650 rocks. Rangers FTMFW.

Is true. 650 rocks. Its duration does suck, though.

[Fallen]

Its duration does suck

Fucking whining rangers. No wonder Mestys doesn't post anymore.

[Latrinsorm]

All in all, it's a small criticism regarding an awesome guy; all I'm saying is that he's not the model of GM posting, imho.
Yeah, I had left off playing right before the cman purekill awesomeness, and it had slipped my mind. I see what you mean now, even though I probably would have been giddily cheering his behavior at the time.

[Allereli]

This pretty much illustrates the bullshit state of development. I don't blame them for not posting, either:


Rocktar,

I agree there are many, many bugs in the game. This is going to happen when you have a game programmed by hundreds of people over 18 years with multiple eras of differing standards and the coders being primarily volunteers who oftentimes have little to no coding background prior to working with GSL. Also considering the volunteer basis of the job, we can't ask that all the coders spend all of their time simply fixing bugs. I fix multiple bugs every week. I know many of my peers do as well. About 99% of them are ones that only a few people see and are easy one line updates. About 1% of them are huge, entrenched problems that arose out of the difficulties I mentioned above. I spend a significant portion of my GM time fixing bugs as all dev GMs are expected to do. We aren't, however, expected to dedicate all of our time that task. Even if every dev GM only fixed bugs for their GM time, the game would still have many present in the system. The environment just breeds them like mosquitoes in a pool of stagnant water.

We prioritize by dealing with the easiest and/or most damaging bugs first. This usually means that the hardest and/or lowest impact bugs stick around for years. It's not a perfect system, but we (the dev team) are also just a group of about a dozen less than perfect people working on a volunteer basis. Given all these circumstances, we do what we can.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team
Voln/CoL Guru

[Methais]

If your post is about GMs basically being slave labor and that being the reason nothing ever gets done, that's nothing everyone hasn't already known since before the internet was invented.

Don't see a problem with their bug fix priority though, in case that was bolded for some reason other than just being in the same paragraph.

[That Jay]

Mentioning "volunteer" status = playing martyr card = -10 pts.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Mentioning "volunteer" status = playing martyr card = -10 pts.

It's not really a martyr card. He's just saying that he's a dope that works for free, and not to blame him. It's not his fault you are playing/paying a subscription game that through some kind of hypnosis or hi-tech retard magnet, has convinced a majority of it's employees to work for peanuts or lines of text.

[That Jay]

Anything above zero (even epsilon) is not zero. True volunteers receive no compensation whatsoever.

Its one thing for misguided sycophantic players to excuse GM behavior or work product under the penumbra of their perceived "volunteer" status, its another for the GM himself to rely on it as some sort of "get out of blame free" card.

[Methais]

Anything above zero (even epsilon) is not zero. True volunteers receive no compensation whatsoever.

Its one thing for misguided sycophantic players to excuse GM behavior or work product under the penumbra of their perceived "volunteer" status, its another for the GM himself to rely on it as some sort of "get out of blame free" card.

Would you prefer if he said "Illegal Mexicans get paid more than I do."?

[Kyra231]

Would you prefer if he said "Illegal Mexicans get paid more than I do."?

It depends if the mexicans are going to claim they're volunteers or not.

[That Jay]

Next time that Simu needs more staff, they should just drive by the local Lowes and pick up some day laborers.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/85147

[Methais]

I'd say their time vs. "pay" shitty enough to be considered a volunteer.

Regardless, I didn't see his post as "Waah waaah I work 4 free so you guys shut up now!" so much as "Simu is too cheap to hire real full time programmers, so you're stuck with us."

[thefarmer]

Explaining the situation doesn't always equal giving excuses.

In that post I don't see it. In other? Sure.

[Danical]

Mentioning "volunteer" status = playing martyr card = -10 pts.

For the amount of time an average Dev GM is supposed to dedicate to coding a week, I could instead make an extra ~1.5k a month. I would be pretty upset if people jumped on me for what is essentially free labor.

An extra 18k a year OOORRRRRR doing a mother fucking thankless job with almost zero upside.

If you told me I was "playing the martyr card," I'd say go fuck yourself and die in a fucking fire.

[Latrinsorm]

How did Rocktar of all people get a more courteous response than Evarin?

[That Jay]

Don't get me wrong, I have no beef with Oscuro. He's one of the "good" GMs.

That being said I just have long had a pet peeve about the use of the word "volunteer" to defend staff. I like words to have meaning. I actually WOULD prefer he referred to staff as being paid less than an illegal immigrant. In that case it would be true. At the very least, he could have done like the Tick does with invulnerable, use the word "nigh" before volunteer. That I could stomach.

[The Ponzzz]

I don't think a single dev GM is bad and I think they are all workhorses. Some might not have the same goals in mind you hope for, but they all really try to make the game better.

[That Jay]

Yeah, now that I think about it, I don't really have a bone to pick with anyone on the Dev side. Not since Ophion really.

[Kyra231]

For the amount of time an average Dev GM is supposed to dedicate to coding a week, I could instead make an extra ~1.5k a month. I would be pretty upset if people jumped on me for what is essentially free labor.

An extra 18k a year OOORRRRRR doing a mother fucking thankless job with almost zero upside.

If you told me I was "playing the martyr card," I'd say go fuck yourself and die in a fucking fire.

Why wouldn't you be upset with yourself for taking such a shit job with such little pay? I think that's my biggest beef with gms saying they're volunteers. They signed up for it, not like they were drafted ffs.

If you hate it enough to cry about being paid so little then quit & go make your big money, if you don't hate it that much then stop tossing around the 'But I'm a volunteer' crap. Real volunteers do what they do for the sheer reward of their job & shouldn't carry on about it how mistreated they are out in public.

Anyone who has played long enough to make it on board could hardly claim to be naive about how much shit anyone in charge of anything for gs is going to get either.

[CrystalTears]

What exactly IS the reward of being a GM for Simu with customers yelling at them daily about how much they suck?

[StrayRogue]

They can kill people with their merchants?

[Kyra231]

What exactly IS the reward of being a GM for Simu with customers yelling at them daily about how much they suck?

I suppose that's something these 'volunteers' should have asked themselves before they took on the job.

[thefarmer]

Why wouldn't you be upset with yourself for taking such a shit job with such little pay? I think that's my biggest beef with gms saying they're volunteers. They signed up for it, not like they were drafted ffs.

If you hate it enough to cry about being paid so little then quit & go make your big money, if you don't hate it that much then stop tossing around the 'But I'm a volunteer' crap. Real volunteers do what they do for the sheer reward of their job & shouldn't carry on about it how mistreated they are out in public.


Real volunteers carry on about how they're mistreated. Public or private it makes no difference. Not all real volunteers are held up against the standards of their adequately paid counterparts, GMs are.

The Gm's volunteered to do the work that a volunteer does, NOT to do the same work that a full time coder does who makes thousands. A lot of players expect the staff to crank out the work output of a paid individual, when they should expect the output of someone essentially not paid.

Do GMs use the volunteer card to cover up for the fact that do absolutely nothing? Of course they do, and often. There are plenty of useless GMs. In fact it seems like there's more and more as the years go by.

That doesn't mean that every time it's mentioned it's them tossing around the 'but I'm a volunteer crap' either. There are a few GMs that work, and work hard, and are players still complain that it's not enough. When somebody like Oscuro (like or dislike what he actually does, I believe he puts out a good amount of change) brings up the fact they're volunteers it's not an excuse, it's a valid reason.

[thefarmer]

What exactly IS the reward of being a GM for Simu with customers yelling at them daily about how much they suck?

A free account, a few bucks a month, and a few more bucks for doing events like EG and CCF, upgrading their gear and alters. That's about it.

[Ashlander]

A free account, a few bucks a month, and a few more bucks for doing events like EG and CCF, upgrading their gear and alters. That's about it.

Don't forget the GS groupie sex at cons.

[That Jay]

There are a few GMs that work, and work hard, and are players still complain that it's not enough. When somebody like Oscuro (like or dislike what he actually does, I believe he puts out a good amount of change) brings up the fact they're volunteers it's not an excuse, it's a valid reason.

THEY ARE NOT VOLUNTEERS!!!!!!!

My brain just 'sploded.

[crb]

I know i'm an asshole. I know I go off topic sometimes. I'm a player. He is a damned GM. He bumped a fucking Week old thread to take a completely off-topic shot at me, then CONTINUED to argue with me in a completely off-topic fashion. Oscuro is indeed a workhorse, but Old Dude has his flaws. That's for damn sure.
Say it with me.

"Fuck You Oscuro"

When I complained about the scroll nerf I think it was he got all in a tizzy and threw down a player quality rant about "unlike some people" (read, me apparently) he had ethics and would never deign to favor one profession over another blah blah blah, really visceral, really inappropriate for an employee. Then a bunch of cheerleader me-toos posted blah blah. So I had to post a screed explaining the penchant for human beings to exhibit unconscious biases even when they're trying specifically not to.

[Fallen]

I hugged it out with Oscuro. I told him I would be doing my best to keep my attacks from becoming personal in the future. That being said, he and I still disagree on a LARGE amount of things. However, i'm a player, and he is a GM, so my opinion means next to nothing, and his almost everything. We're all capable of bad days, and Oscuro is no exception. I consider the matter in the past.

[Lord Orbstar]

Oscuro was in the right. Not you. You whined about him only loving 1 or 2 professions. He called you on it sarcastically for sure, but so what. he even said let's go to the banter forum and I will hear your out and reply. What is NOT to like there other than "you nerfed me so I am bitter"?

replying to one week old post is not such a shock. most people do not live daily on the forums and get to things when they get to them. it is not like he bumped a complaint from 1994, "WTF, why does laen have to be so heavy" or "there are too many snerts now that we are on AOL".

Forum Snipers cannot expect to never receive fire in return. if you poke at the little furry mammal that is SIMU, it will eventually snap back before it curls back up asleep and dreams about marketing strategies, savants and monks.

Although you DO win points for the "dont cross me or you will lose" throwback. that was funny as hell (even if I did like Mr. X as a GM and player).

[crb]

Anything above zero (even epsilon) is not zero. True volunteers receive no compensation whatsoever.

Its one thing for misguided sycophantic players to excuse GM behavior or work product under the penumbra of their perceived "volunteer" status, its another for the GM himself to rely on it as some sort of "get out of blame free" card.
If simu had a brain (read, they don't) they'd make the game open source but with a restrictive license and adopt the wikipedia style of game development whereby anyone could see how GSL works, how game systems work, and so could then develop said game systems. Implementation would still have to be handled by QC gate keepers, but development could be done by players.

Most bugs would get fixed in weeks, the spell circles would all be finished in months. New monsters and hunting grounds would crop up like weeds, and we'd all be playing monks AND savants.

But, as I said, they don't have any sense, thus, another thing they do wrong. They're amateur hour, and the only reason they exist now or ever did is first mover advantage.

What makes a GM different than me, or Jamus, or Tsoran*, or Greminity, or Belnia, or Nilandia, or Carabele, or Xygon? You want to talk about doing work for the game for free? The spirit that possessed us to make contributions isn't much different than perhaps the spirit that possessed GMs to do the work for relatively little money, and they at least do get paid. Nevermind the fact that they mostly aren't professional computer programmers, they're in school, or have absolutely no programming ability until they're hired (for other, somewhat dubious reasons, and are then taught). So should they get a typical programmer's wage for their work? I wouldn't think so.

I don't want to be a GM, I'm really thinking I'd not fit in with the corporate culture. But if the game was open source I'm sure I'd find myself coding spells and monsters and systems, for free, for fun. So that Oscuro is willing to tow the corporate line, and do it for money (if not much), I don't think should make him free from reproach for his QQing.

[Lord Orbstar]

Of course, I read a few pages...post...then get to the end to see the drama is over.

I am glad everyone is congenial again.

[Stanley Burrell]

if you poke at the little furry mammal that is SIMU, it will eventually snap back before it curls back up asleep

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4561/45751225.png

[diethx]

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4561/45751225.png


rofflecakes.

:heart: Ben

[Stanley Burrell]

I should not be allowed to have this much free time.

[Fallen]

Oscuro was in the right. Not you. You whined about him only loving 1 or 2 professions. He called you on it sarcastically for sure, but so what. he even said let's go to the banter forum and I will hear your out and reply. What is NOT to like there other than "you nerfed me so I am bitter"?

replying to one week old post is not such a shock. most people do not live daily on the forums and get to things when they get to them. it is not like he bumped a complaint from 1994, "WTF, why does laen have to be so heavy" or "there are too many snerts now that we are on AOL".

Forum Snipers cannot expect to never receive fire in return. if you poke at the little furry mammal that is SIMU, it will eventually snap back before it curls back up asleep and dreams about marketing strategies, savants and monks.

Although you DO win points for the "dont cross me or you will lose" throwback. that was funny as hell (even if I did like Mr. X as a GM and player).

Yeah, Oscuro was totally right to go completely off-topic and bump a week old thread to take a pointless shot at a Post Script statement(which BTW, had nothing to do with 1 or 2 professions). If you don't see anything unprofessional in what he did I can't help you. Usually GMs are expected to follow the rules of their own forums. Oscuro can and has carried over his opinions on certain mechanics into coding changes, see Raise dead on scrolls. He also stated only Savants would be getting X-realms transport. He then personally gave it to a profession other than the one he named. Bottom line, if a GM wants to act like a player and make pot shots at me, I am going to treat him as I would another player, and take pot shots right back. Don't worry, Orb star. Oscuro is a big boy, and as he clearly showed in the Solhaven thread, he can take it.

[CrystalTears]

Oscuro can and has carried over his opinions on certain mechanics into coding changes, see Raise dead on scrolls.:deadhorse:

[Fallen]

:deadhorse:
Hey, I was done. Even Orb Star admitted the argument dead after he posted his, "NO U!" rant.

[CrystalTears]

Meaning you'll stop bitching about the raise dead scroll (which is what I referring to about beating a dead horse)?

[Fallen]

Meaning you'll stop bitching about the raise scroll threads (which is what I referring to about beating a dead horse)?

Meaning what I meant under your contribution of a smiley face beating a horse.

[Latrinsorm]

So I had to post a screed explaining the penchant for human beings to exhibit unconscious biases even when they're trying specifically not to.:facepalm:
Most bugs would get fixed in weeks, the spell circles would all be finished in months. New monsters and hunting grounds would crop up like weeds, and we'd all be playing monks AND savants.A TV in every classroom! A chicken in every pot! A little useless TV on the side of every pot, like on Pimp My Ride!
I hugged it out with Oscuro. I told him I would be doing my best to keep my attacks from becoming personal in the future. That being said, he and I still disagree on a LARGE amount of things. However, i'm a player, and he is a GM, so my opinion means next to nothing, and his almost everything. We're all capable of bad days, and Oscuro is no exception. I consider the matter in the past.What's the anti-facepalm? You get one, whatever it is.

[phantasm]

Players dedicate a huge amount of time to the game, which adds to other players enjoyment of the game, even if that enjoyment is just that they are there to look at your new item, see your new combat #'s, or just enjoy themselves by watching they're #'s rise.
They do this because they enjoy doing it.

GM's dedicate an amount of time to the game, which is supposed to add to other players enjoyment of the game.
Currently GM's only work on systems that are interesting to them, or bugs which are easy to fix.
They do this because it allows them to enjoy being a GM.

We know that GM pay is small, and not even worth the effort. Which is why we also know that GM's are only GM's because they enjoy doing it as much as players enjoy playing.

If all GM pay was removed, the GM's would still be there, working only on systems that they enjoy and fixing easy bugs.

The pay should only be available if you spend your GM time doing something you don't enjoy, or that isn't easy.

Set up a bounty system, where all the hard bugs or boring tasks are available, and if you complete them, you get some pay.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Players enjoy doing what they do, and GM's enjoy doing what they do. GM's = Players. Why do GM's get paid? They should be getting paid for doing things they don't enjoy. So if a GM tells you he is just a volunteer and he's not going to do anything he doesn't like doing, he is just reminding you that GM = Player and his title means nothing, and he is taking pay for doing nothing. If a GM is taking pay he should be doing things he doesn't enjoy, such as fixing long standing difficult bugs, or working on systems that might not be interesting to him.

You, sir, have an awesome view of labor. :down:

[yesicj]

What's the anti-facepalm?

Chuck Norris giving a thumbs up.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7TZGRCl2PCo/SZwHrh1pecI/AAAAAAAADiI/5yjnJHGzoAA/s400/chuck-norris-thumbs-up.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

Chuck Norris giving a thumbs up.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7TZGRCl2PCo/SZwHrh1pecI/AAAAAAAADiI/5yjnJHGzoAA/s400/chuck-norris-thumbs-up.jpgThank you, Chuck Norris!