reactivating old rogue

[BlueRaider]

What do you think?

Some Dark Elf (at level 48), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 172 72
Ranged Weapons.....................| 198 98
Ambush.............................| 198 98
Physical Fitness...................| 198 98
Dodging............................| 198 98
Stalking and Hiding................| 248 148
Perception.........................| 248 148
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 90 20
Pickpocketing......................| 200 100

your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shadow Mastery smastery 5
Cheapshots cheapshots 2
Multi-Fire mfire 5
Surge of Strength surge 1

You are a Master of Sweep.
You have 13 ranks in the Subdue skill.
You have 3 ranks in the Stun Maneuvers skill.
You have 1 rank in the Lock Mastery skill.
You have 10 ranks in the Rogue Gambits skill.


I didn't build this character, that's why I'm keeping it nameless, however I do have posession of it for atleast the next few years, so I want to experiment.
I'm not too interested in lock picking because I know someone else who can pick my boxes. However, if the points are availible, I'm certainly open to trying.

What I really wanted was a war-ish rogue. This character can wear MBP and has a crossbow, and from what I read eblading arrows used with a 5x bow counts as a 9x weapon. True? One thing I didn't like about archery was the nasty cocking time from the crossbow, but how well has this worked for other players? I'm assuming just leave the room, hide and cock/load, return and fire? How is archery compared to the old ambushing with sword/board?

Do rogues continue into full plate, or do most of them remain in brig? I thought there were hinderances with hiding involved when wearing plate, but I'm not sure.

Thanks!

[Carl Spackler]

First, don't use a crossbow. Get yourself a Longbow or Composite Bow.

Second, MBP is fine.

If you don't want to pick locks you really don't need anything else.

[NocturnalRob]

If you don't want to pick locks be a ranger
or that

[BlueRaider]

Well I inherited the character for the time being, so unless there's an option to change his profession to Ranger while retaining his level, I'm out of luck.

Isn't that climbing/swimming too high? My only guess was that this was purposely done for redux, but I'm just not sure.

And about switching to a longbow/composite bow, what's the trade off? Does the longbow do more damage? Longer/shorter rt? I thought most rogues going the archery route stuck to crossbows, but I must be mistaken on that.

[SolitareConfinement]

i'd burn a fixskills and drop my hiding down to 2.5x at least...most likely to 2x....and drop perception down to 2x if you're not picking locks...its absolutely pointless to be 3x'd in perception without picking locks

[Izzy]

Well I inherited the character for the time being, so unless there's an option to change his profession to Ranger while retaining his level, I'm out of luck.

Isn't that climbing/swimming too high? My only guess was that this was purposely done for redux, but I'm just not sure.

And about switching to a longbow/composite bow, what's the trade off? Does the longbow do more damage? Longer/shorter rt? I thought most rogues going the archery route stuck to crossbows, but I must be mistaken on that.

Climbing/swimming don't affect redux.

Very few archers use a crossbow, period, much less as a main weapon. They're slow, and force stance change. Sucky and suckier. Longbow RT can be 3 seconds aimed with the proper strength modifiers. (+50 total strength will get an aimed longbow shot to 3 seconds)

[BlueRaider]

Well looks like I'm ditching the crossbow then. Kinda sucks, because I liked the idea of using one, but they ruined it with mechanics again. How about archery compared to sword/board and ambush routine? Does archery seem more cookie cutter now ((for rogues)) ? Since I'll likely stay archery, I guess I could pick up picking and ditch the cmans. If I lower the climbing/swimming down to 70 each, would that be enough to reach most areas? Or can it be lowered further and still be able to reach most spots?

[kookiegod]

Keep archery, drop the crossbow...

Discard mfire, worthless generally. In fact, discard all your CMANs currently, other than maybe cheapshots or get rid of that and add sweep, then max it unless you want to do guildskills. Add in one rank of combat mobility, no rogue should never not have that.

Personally I hate hiding, drop all that, max up your dodge for DS, ditto for pickpocketing, and add in some ranks of MIU and AS to be able to use magic items to boost your AS/DS.

<shrug>

Just my 2 coins.

~Paul

[Swami71]

What about the +2 AvD you get from a heavy crossbow....heh

[BlueRaider]

Keep archery, drop the crossbow...

Discard mfire, worthless generally. In fact, discard all your CMANs currently, other than maybe cheapshots or get rid of that and add sweep, then max it unless you want to do guildskills. Add in one rank of combat mobility, no rogue should never not have that.

Personally I hate hiding, drop all that, max up your dodge for DS, ditto for pickpocketing, and add in some ranks of MIU and AS to be able to use magic items to boost your AS/DS.

<shrug>

Just my 2 coins.

~Paul

Awesome, thanks. I believe I will drop the cmans and only get mobility/shadow mastery since I'm already a master of sweep, though I need to be reinitiated into the guild ((anyone in landings mind?)).

But why do you hate hiding? I can understand beefing up dodge, but isn't there a bonus when ambushing while hiding, or does that not apply to archery?

And pickpocketing, does anyone still have fun with that anymore? I guess the "stealing" spots have shifted over the years. I remember the park being notorious for thieves, but now it's dead.

[SolitareConfinement]

But why do you hate hiding? I can understand beefing up dodge, but isn't there a bonus when ambushing while hiding, or does that not apply to archery?


nope it sure doesn't...he hates hiding because archery pwns so much that in most circumstances its a waste of extra seconds to snipe at least that's my guess

[Ragesh]

And pickpocketing, does anyone still have fun with that anymore? I guess the "stealing" spots have shifted over the years. I remember the park being notorious for thieves, but now it's dead.

Stealing is the only fun part of gemstone. :P

[BlueRaider]

Well, glad I found that out. So if hiding doesn't give a bonus, what about ambushing? Is it even necessary with archery, or is aiming solely dependent on perception?

[Xeromist]

Ambush and perception will add AS to ranged weapons.
Here's a link with some info for ya.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ranged_Weapons

[BlueRaider]

Thanks for the link, now I understand why my rt was 9 seconds, AND why hiding sucks. Hmm, now I need to decide what I want out of this character. Back to the drawing boards...

Thanks guys!

[kookiegod]

nope it sure doesn't...he hates hiding because archery pwns so much that in most circumstances its a waste of extra seconds to snipe at least that's my guess

Bingo, just take more time, you will be in hauberk/metal breastplate, high dodge, why take the extra time for a bonus, kill em quicker, get out of the field, go rest and roleplay.

~Paul

[kookiegod]

I don't have ambush on my ranger archer, and I do on my rogue archer. Its a nice bonus but not needed. 2x perception IS needed.

Just for edification, this is my rogue archer build.

Half-Elf Profession: Rogue (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 2062515 Level: 44
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 74 (12) ... 70 (10)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (30) ... 104 (32)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 82 (11) ... 82 (11)
Aura (AUR): 75 (12) ... 75 (12)
Logic (LOG): 68 (9) ... 68 (9)
Intuition (INT): 62 (6) ... 62 (6)
Wisdom (WIS): 67 (8) ... 67 (8)
Influence (INF): 65 (12) ... 65 (12)
Mana: 112 Silver: 0
>skill
(at level 44), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 146 46
Ranged Weapons.....................| 196 96
Ambush.............................| 192 92
Physical Fitness...................| 146 46
Dodging............................| 218 118
Arcane Symbols.....................| 120 30
Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30
Harness Power......................| 129 34
Elemental Mana Control.............| 10 2
Disarming Traps....................| 192 92
Picking Locks......................| 192 92
Perception.........................| 192 92
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 90 20
Training Points: 79 Phy 0 Mnt (66 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1

You are a Master in the Council of Light.

[DaCapn]

Personally, I think one of the coolest aspects of archery is that you can do it from hiding and not be revealed. (Without the use of a dumb cman like silent strike).

I consider pickpocketing to be a total waste. If it's a major component of your RP with the character, that's fine but I'm not convinced that is the case for most people. Probably the only person I've SEEN like that is Mexlur.

As others have said, I'd drop mfire, lower perception to 2x, and use a bow.


Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1

If you are really driven to waste your points on weapon specialization, people have reported that you can take wspec1 in arrows and wspec2 in bows and the bonuses will stack. It will save you 12 CM points if you insist on getting that +10. Surge and wspec are the same point cost. I think it's no contest if you're looking at mastering one or the other.

[Mtenda]

I disagree that hiding sucks. It's the best form of defense you have. Also, your rt will be the same when firing from hiding (1 second) if you do it right. And most of the time you should already be hidden from sneaking around.

[kookiegod]

/quote If you are really driven to waste your points on weapon specialization, people have reported that you can take wspec1 in arrows and wspec2 in bows and the bonuses will stack. It will save you 12 CM points if you insist on getting that +10. Surge and wspec are the same point cost. I think it's no contest if you're looking at mastering one or the other.[/QUOTE]

I'd rather have the AS and kill faster, and wspec has no cooldown.

<shrug>

~Paul

[kookiegod]

I disagree that hiding sucks. It's the best form of defense you have. Also, your rt will be the same when firing from hiding (1 second) if you do it right. And most of the time you should already be hidden from sneaking around.

Hiding IS great defense, but its inefficient. Longer your out there, sooner or later get spotted. He's gonna be in chain/mbp, just max up defenses and AS, kill em, get to town.

Even my level 13 ranger has no problems doing that, and he doesn't even have enchanted armor yet, when he gets into the padded brig I got for him, going to be a beast.

~Paul

[DaCapn]

I'd rather have the AS and kill faster, and wspec has no cooldown.

If we were talking about melee combat, you could make circumstantial cases for either being the best choice. Surge is what will make you kill faster when it comes to archery.

With your build in particular, since you don't appear to consume stamina (CoL, no disabling cmans other than guild skills, no smastery), you might be able to keep surge up even while paying the increased stamina cost during the cooldown. At just rank 2 of surge, you get an added +10 to STR bonus, shaving 1 second off your RT.

Even if you mind the cooldown, you can grab 3 ranks to have a 90/180 sec on/off duration ratio. So for 1/3 of your time hunting, your attack RT will be reduced by 1 second. Also, 3 ranks happens to be 12 CM points, exactly how many you will earn back if you split your wspec ranks between arrow and bow. You really might as well since your stamina is probably going nowhere anyway.

I've got my archer mastered in surge because he's a halfling and if I have 509 up (I keep white crystals and various 509 edibles handy) with surge, I get a 3 second RT reduction. If you're not in a similar state, mastering surge probably isn't as worth it.

[Endlin]

cman learn wspec2
For ranged weapons, specialize in the ammo type (arrows/bolts) instead of the bow type.

You can't wspec in bows.. Unless I'm totally missing something.

[Mtenda]

Hiding IS great defense, but its inefficient. Longer your out there, sooner or later get spotted. He's gonna be in chain/mbp, just max up defenses and AS, kill em, get to town.

Even my level 13 ranger has no problems doing that, and he doesn't even have enchanted armor yet, when he gets into the padded brig I got for him, going to be a beast.

~Paul

I don't doubt that it can be done without hiding. I've done it. But hiding is definitely efficient from the defensive standpoint of minimizing risks and the offensive standpoint of having more control over the sequence of events in combat. Maybe from a movement standpoint it's less efficient. 1 second to move from room to room but the trade off is very small and creature gen is the same either way. You will eventually be spotted but it only takes one second to hide again for most. Worth it IMO.

[BlueRaider]

Well I took the plunge and went for lockpicking. The comment about making a ranger if I didn't want to pick locks really changed my mind about all of it. So my question is, at 2x disarming/picking/perception, can I handle boxes of my level ((48)) ? Or only lower? If so, how low? Here's my training now:

(at level 48), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 168 68
Ranged Weapons.....................| 198 98
Ambush.............................| 198 98
Physical Fitness...................| 198 98
Dodging............................| 198 98
Disarming Traps....................| 198 98
Picking Locks......................| 198 98
Stalking and Hiding................| 198 98
Perception.........................| 198 98
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 90 20
Pickpocketing......................| 198 98

Race: Dark Elf Profession: Rogue (shown as: Buccaneer)
Gender: Male Age: 36 Expr: 2412785 Level: 48
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 92 (11) ... 92 (11)
Aura (AUR): 77 (23) ... 77 (23)
Logic (LOG): 62 (6) ... 62 (6)
Intuition (INT): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Wisdom (WIS): 72 (16) ... 72 (16)
Influence (INF): 48 (-6) ... 48 (-6)
Mana: 7 Silver: 0

Also, earlier in the thread people mentioned that they could lower their RT for aiming a longbow. How? My strength looks fine, but I still have a 10sec rt! :help:

Thanks again!

[NocturnalRob]

Well I took the plunge and went for lockpicking. The comment about making a ranger if I didn't want to pick locks really changed my mind about all of it.
you won't regret it.

I HELPED!!

[BlueRaider]

Well now I just need to learn about the different traps so I don't end up killing myself.

[Endlin]

Well I took the plunge and went for lockpicking. The comment about making a ranger if I didn't want to pick locks really changed my mind about all of it. So my question is, at 2x disarming/picking/perception, can I handle boxes of my level ((48)) ? Or only lower? If so, how low? Here's my training now:

(at level 48), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 168 68
Ranged Weapons.....................| 198 98
Ambush.............................| 198 98
Physical Fitness...................| 198 98
Dodging............................| 198 98
Disarming Traps....................| 198 98
Picking Locks......................| 198 98
Stalking and Hiding................| 198 98
Perception.........................| 198 98
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 90 20
Pickpocketing......................| 198 98

Race: Dark Elf Profession: Rogue (shown as: Buccaneer)
Gender: Male Age: 36 Expr: 2412785 Level: 48
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 92 (11) ... 92 (11)
Aura (AUR): 77 (23) ... 77 (23)
Logic (LOG): 62 (6) ... 62 (6)
Intuition (INT): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Wisdom (WIS): 72 (16) ... 72 (16)
Influence (INF): 48 (-6) ... 48 (-6)
Mana: 7 Silver: 0

Also, earlier in the thread people mentioned that they could lower their RT for aiming a longbow. How? My strength looks fine, but I still have a 10sec rt! :help:

Thanks again!

You should be able to get most of your own boxes at 2x picking/disarm. Though there will be exceptions. You'll want to pick up lores (403, 404) when you can, which increase your range by a shit ton. You can get by on imbeds if you're really against that but... as I understand it the largest bonus comes from being able to cast them yourself.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Trap - Have a look there for types of traps.

As for your RT with the long bow. I'm not seeing how it could be 10 seconds, even aimed from hiding. But every 10 strength bonus (not stat, bonus) reduces your RT for firing a bow by -1. So if you're firing from the open, unaimed your rt should be 5 seconds and +1 second for aiming and +1 for hiding. So no matter what you're doing I don't see how you're getting it higher than 7 seconds.

But to lower it you can learn surge of strength, carry white crystals or other strength imbeds/scrolls, and kiss wizard ass for spellups.


Edit: Looking again I see you have no magic item use or arcane symbols training. My advice is to change that.. some would disagree but... Being able to use both is great IMO. But I'm not saying you should 'need' both, and seeing as how arcane symbols lets you know if you've disarmed a scarab I'd recomend at least learning that. 20 ranks or so is good.. More is better.

[BlueRaider]

Thanks, I think I should be able to fit that. But whats really bugging me is this damned 10 second rt. I wonder if it's my bow? I bought a pale golden ruic longbow carved with stylized flames. I was told it could fire wands, but doesn't seem like it can :mad:

[Asha]

Krakiipedia is boss for Archery guides plus I think it might have info about wand bows. They fire your arrows powered with flares from wands you load into the bow btw.
Also hiding is win because I don't like my rogue being cast at.

[Endlin]

Assuming thats one of the wand bows sold at the last Ebons gate, I have the exact same bow. And It certainly doesn't take me 10 seconds to fire it.

As for putting a wand in it... Assuming you're using fletched arrows you'll probably do that about.. Never. If it has a gold wand in it, it burns your arrows as they are fired. So yeah.. You get a nifty fire flare but considering the time and expense of fletching, its not worth it when you're killing most things in 1 or 2 shots anyway.

And it doesn't work with e-bladed arrows.

If you really want flares, just use e-bladed arrows or get your hands on some griffin fletchings.

[BlueRaider]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about the flaring arrows because I do the same thing, get them ebladed.

But this 10 sec rt is killing me. I thought maybe it's because of my armor, but I should be trained for it. I'm wearing a MBP with 80 armor ranks. Then I thought maybe it was encumberance, but I'm not encumbred ((and I think I read that being encumbred doesn't affect archery anyway)).

When I find out I'll post about it. I'm sure it's something dumb I'm overlooking.

[Endlin]

Have you tried firing without your armor on? And are you wearing leg greaves, arm greaves or a helm?

[BlueRaider]

I am wearing arm greaves/leg greaves, and I'm wearing a helm. I haven't tried firing without the armor on though, so I'll go try that now and update in a moment.

EDIT: Bingo, must be the armor. I took the breastplate off, and the rt was 7 seconds from aimed/hiding. 6 seconds not hiding. But why? Isn't 80 armor ranks enough for my armor? Clearly it seems not.

[Mtenda]

I am wearing arm greaves/leg greaves, and I'm wearing a helm. I haven't tried firing without the armor on though, so I'll go try that now and update in a moment.

If you are wearing a helm then you are basically wearing full plate with MBP training. There is your problem.

[BlueRaider]

Ahh, so I would need 140 ranks then to properly wear full-plate, or a MBP with helm. Well, time to go see what happens if I remove the helm but keep the greaves. Thanks guys!

EDIT: And that shaved a second off. This means I'll have to remove the greaves as well, since I'd technically be wearing half plate? Sonofabitch!

[thefarmer]

You'll be in halfplate then and 80 ranks won't work either.

Every misc armor piece you wear bumps you up an armor ASG.

MBP+arm greaves=aug plate
+leg greaves=halfplate
+helm=fullplate

Note that you don't have to wear BOTH arm and leg greaves to equal halfplate. Just wearing the leg greaves is enough, or wearing a helm with just MBP will push you to full plate.

[BlueRaider]

Well, I guess that leaves me with 2 options then. Switch to a hauberk, or stick with ONLY wearing a MBP, without helm/greaves. Which would protect me better? I know the MBP is plate and all, but it only covers the chest. Atleast with a hauberk I'd have chain protection from head to toe.

...and should I continue training in armor to reach 140 ranks so I can wear full plate at some point?

[Endlin]

A MBP will protect you better, its plate on your torso and chain every where else. Any accesory you add to a MBP is like putting plate coverage on that area too.

And.. Its up to you. It's not uncommon for rogues to go all the way to full plate. Plate = Awesome, but it also ain't cheap to get there.

[BlueRaider]

Ah, well that's good to know. So I'm sticking with the MBP afterall, great!