The Fundamentals of Christianity Beyond Christ

[Fallen]

Let me start out by saying I am not a Christian, nor do I have anything which can be called faith. I don't take something to be true on a level that a religious person does without being presented strong factual information, or more accurately an argument based on reason. I'm not stating that as a point of pride, but only to preface how I view the subject matter at hand.

I spoke with my co-worker today who is taking a class on the history of Christianity. She herself was raised a fairly strict Christian (I'm not sure of the specific denomination), and that she is willing to take a class which looks at documents as the bible objectively in my opinion speaks much to her character. She told me of one of the papers she has been writing, which was concerning whether or not Jesus Christ was actually born of a virgin birth, and whether or not it actually matters. She listed the various other theories that have been raised concerning his birth, and seemed to believe that he likely wasn't born in the manner exactly described. She said much of the bible seems to be building upon the Old Testament, but was altered, or exaggerated to better increase its appeal.

All that being said, she then told me that she didn't really think it mattered if the man was born of a virgin birth, and that she believed he still was a fantastic and inspirational man that rose from the dead after being dying for our sins. I then questioned why she believed that one fact was true, while she was willing to question other even less miraculous aspects of the bible. She conceded then too that perhaps he didn't rise from the dead, but all the same, she has an even greater sense of faith since taking the class. She was simply angry that the multiple theories of surrounding the birth of Christ wasn't taught.

This made me pause, and really question what it is she is holding true to. She no longer really seemed to believe that Christ was anything more than a man speaking of the morals of Christianity. She still had faith that the religion is the source of her soul's salvation. I really can't even begin how she can hold to those beliefs after seeing how much of the Bible, and even the Old Testament can be shown as inaccurate, or at least dubious in its CORE truths.

All of that aside, it makes me really believe what do Christians hold to be true BEYOND Christ? Should I really be looking for Jews to answer this question? What are the very core beliefs of this religion if you set aside such things as Jesus being part of a holy trinity? If you set aside ALL of the rituals, ceremonies, commandments, etc, what is left, if anything? I believe that Judaism is just as bogged down by believing in sets of rules set down by a savior figure, or by the dietary standards of the times rather than the true MESSAGE behind the religion.

I paused for a good 30 minutes or so in between the last paragraph and this one to speak with another co-worker. He stated he basically believes that all religions boil down to the idea of Redemption. Your good deeds in life should outweigh those that are considered bad (by whatever system of rules you abide by), in order to be saved. For him, and I suppose for myself as well, it goes beyond the idea of going to heaven when you die. It is about living a life where you contribute more to the world around you than you take away.

I am going to stop here as I think rambling any further will lead even less people to read through this than there will be now. What I am basically asking is if you set aside the specifics of Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammad, or any of the SPECIFIC rules of each religion, what is left? What does your religion do to strengthen your relationship with god (Or whatever you believe is the impetus of existence)?

[Clove]

Mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14 "almah" = "sexy young woman" not "virgin".

[ElvenFury]

Actually studying the history of the bible would definitely be enough to make a lot of people question their beliefs. I also agree that the threshold for belief/non-belief is interesting, although in her case it's probably just going to take some time to sink in. Blind faith (i.e. religion) can obviously be a difficult thing to reconsider, so I could see her going either way after mulling it over for a few months. It's likely that she'll either selectively forget the stuff she learned in her class, or she'll eventually grow to feel largely disconnected with her former religious beliefs.

Personally, I decided that my mom's religion was a load of crap by the time I was 10, and I went on strike, refusing to go ever again. I haven't regretted the decision yet.

[ElanthianSiren]

About the only truth I ever pulled out of Christianity was the ethic of reciprocity, which isn't unique (in idea) to that religion by any means. It only goes so far with me though, as I'm not a particularly forgiving person.

[Fallen]

Actually studying the history of the bible would definitely be enough to make a lot of people question their beliefs. I also agree that the threshold for belief/non-belief is interesting, although in her case it's probably just going to take some time to sink in. Blind faith (i.e. religion) can obviously be difficult thing to reconsider, so I could see her going either way after mulling it over for a few months. It's likely that she'll either selectively forget the stuff she learned in her class, or she'll eventually grow to feel largely disconnected with her former religious beliefs.

Personally, I decided that my mom's religion was a load of crap by the time I was 10, and I went on strike, refusing to go ever again. I haven't regretted that decision yet.

I think it is easy to dismiss religion as "crap", mostly because so much of it is presented as fact when it was at best a moral lesson, and at worst a selling point for the masses. I don't believe abandonment of the idea of Christ as the son of god has to equal abandonment of the core principles of spiritualism itself. I offer no insult to you, EF, and I agree with you for the most part that the way Modern religion puts SO MUCH between you and "god" is crap.

What I am trying to do is find out EXACTLY what those core principles are, once you set aside the idea of all the mysticism of a religion, and of the codes of conduct pertaining to food, or specific methods of prayer. There HAS to be more to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc, then simply an effort = reward philosophy. That has 0 depth, and doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.

The word "god" causes most non-Christians I’ve encountered to roll their eyes, and I think that isn't a good thing. I think this is partially because of all of the stupidity of shrouding the term in the form of a person, or a singular entity. I just think it is sad that if I wanted to gain a better understanding of "god", I don't believe I have any modern religion to turn to. I also don't believe gaining said insight should have ANYTHING to do with the commonly held understanding of the word Faith. There is rarely any effort to comprehend what "god" is other than relying on blind faith.

[ElvenFury]

I just think it is sad that if I wanted to gain a better understanding of "god", I don't believe I have any modern religion to turn to. I also don't believe gaining said insight should have ANYTHING to do with the commonly held understanding of the word Faith.

I personally think it's sad that people turn to other people for a better understanding of God at all. Common sense should dictate that the other person was born just as ignorant as the rest of us, and s/he has either merely cobbled together some beliefs based on his/her limited life observations, or simply regurgitated the beliefs taught to him/her by some other similarly ignorant fuck (or a mish-mash of the both).

In short, I think any copper-tops out there should stop waiting for Morpheus to come by and blow your understanding of the world wide open.

As far as your main point goes, I obviously don't have much for core religious beliefs. Sorry if I'm derailing things a bit. ;-)

[Fallen]

I personally think it's sad that people turn to other people for a better understanding of God at all. Common sense should dictate that the other person was born just as ignorant as the rest of us, and s/he has either merely cobbled together some beliefs based on his/her limited life observations, or simply regurgitated the beliefs taught to him/her by some other similarly ignorant fuck (or a mish-mash of the both).

In short, I think any copper-tops out there should stop waiting for Morpheus to come by and blow your understanding of the world wide open.

As far as your main point goes, I obviously don't have much for core religious beliefs. Sorry if I'm derailing things a bit. ;-)

You're not derailing the thread at all. I believe you have a point that much of understanding what "god" is or means to you is self-discovery. I also believe, however, that people can help guide you to make these discoveries by passing along insights they have gained in their own spiritual exploration. Preaching is certainly not the right word. Perhaps they phrase a question for you to consider, or force you to better examine an understanding or conclusion you arrive at regarding the issue. Read me? I just don't want to be caught up in all the rest of the "crap" that I have no belief in. The idea that Christ did miracles, rose from the dead, was born of a virgin birth. The idea that eating pork will effect my relationship with god, etc.

[ElvenFury]

You're not derailing the thread at all. I believe you have a point that much of understanding what "god" is or means to you is self-discovery. I also believe, however, that people can help guide you to make these discoveries by passing along insights they have gained in their own spiritual exploration. Preaching is certainly not the right word. Perhaps they phrase a question for you to consider, or force you to better examine an understanding or conclusion you arrive at regarding the issue. Read me? I just don't want to be caught up in all the rest of the "crap" that I have no belief in. The idea that Christ did miracles, rose from the dead, was born of a virgin birth. The idea that eating pork will effect my relationship with god, etc.

Yeah, I read you, and I agree that talking things out with other people can be a great way to help you form your own thoughts and conclusions. What I don't agree with is the search for an organized religion to solve your problems. To me, organized religion is just a method of control. I'm sure it's largely not meant to be that way, but it seems that inevitably it turns into a way for one small group of people (or possibly just one person) to influence or outright direct the behavior of others based on some assumption that their opinion (and I do consider religious beliefs to be opinions) is more valid than other peoples.

Apologies if I'm offending anyone here. I admit to being jaded when it comes to religion, and part of MY belief system is that you don't tell other people what to believe, so I normally resist the urge to get sucked into these discussions. :sorry:

[CrystalTears]

To me, organized religion is just a method of control. I'm sure it's largely not meant to be that way, but it seems that inevitably it turns into a way for one small group of people (or possibly just one person) to influence or outright direct the behavior of others based on some assumption that their opinion (and I do consider religious beliefs to be opinions) is more valid than other peoples.And yet isn't that exactly what you're doing?

[Fallen]

Yeah, I read you, and I agree that talking things out with other people can be a great way to help you form your own thoughts and conclusions. What I don't agree with is the search for an organized religion to solve your problems. To me, organized religion is just a method of control. I'm sure it's largely not meant to be that way, but it seems that inevitably it turns into a way for one small group of people (or possibly just one person) to influence or outright direct the behavior of others based on some assumption that their opinion (and I do consider religious beliefs to be opinions) is more valid than other peoples.

Apologies if I'm offending anyone here. I admit to being jaded when it comes to religion, and part of MY belief system is that you don't tell other people what to believe, so I normally resist the urge to get sucked into these discussions. :sorry:

That wasn't really the sole purpose of the thread. My real goal was to hear from Christians, or Jews, or any other member of an organized religion their fundamental values. Beyond just accepting Christ as your savior or whatever. I was hoping for the core philosophy of their religions once you set aside the story based morals, or standardized codes for prayer and avoidance of sin. If there isn't anything more to it THAN those things, so be it.

[ElvenFury]

And yet isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Kinda, which is why I said I'm sorry at the end.

That said, there has to be some open discussion about beliefs, but I freely admit that the line between discussion and preaching is dodgy at best.

[CrystalTears]

Kinda, which is why I said I'm sorry at the end.

That said, there has to be some open discussion about beliefs, but I freely admit that the line between discussion and preaching is dodgy at best.
And since you're being the preachy one here by stating that religion is all bullshit, and that's not really what Fallen is looking for, I suggest you stop.

[Khariz]

Fallen,

I think your inquiry is fundamentally flawed. Your question doesn't make sense to me, as a Catholic and Christian.

Just to try to clear this up, are you asking: "Besides the teachings of Christ Himself, and the revelations provided by Old Testament figures such as Moses (since you brought the Jews up), what else does your religion believe?"

If so, the question doesn't make sense, as you are essentially saying "If you flush the Bible down the toilet, what does your religion believe". The answer is nothing. It's those parables and the words of Christ Himself that we believe in and on, and where we draw the Church teachings. How do you live your life "right"? Follow His example. What should you "do" with regard to your spiritual life? What He said you should do.

Besides His words, His instructions, and things that you can imply therefrom, there isn't, and more importantly shouldn't be, much more to it. The more Biblilically fundamentalist you get, the LESS there is to the particular denomination of Christianity.

So for example, a "Bible Baptist" church that believes in Sola Scriptura would not practice or believe ANYTHING that wasn't explicitly spelled out in the Bible, whereas a Catholic takes both Scripture and the Traditions of the Church passed down through the traceable, well documented ages, and incorporates such into the actual Dogmatic practices of the church.

Can you be more specific with your question?

[BriarFox]

Technically, if she rejects the idea that Christ was the son of God, was born without sin, and died for the sins of Mankind, she's no longer a Christian. That is *the* core belief.

There's a whole lot of strictures on moral behavior that arise from that belief (esp. the 'imitatio Christi' idea - the "imitation of Christ" which is the ostensible goal for a Christian), and while I suppose those could go on, justified by other measures (like "the good of society"), they wouldn't last long without some grounding.

What you're describing when you talk about her is a Christian who no longer believes in Christianity, but hasn't quite worked that out yet. She seems like she may be stuck in a rut of familiar behavior. Of course, as you and others have pointed out, Fallen, much of the morality of Christianity is shared by other religions and by non-religious behavioral ideals.

For some historical parallels, the Cathars in southern western Europe held out a Manichean view of the world (good and evil equal and at war) and denied the Divinity of Christ. They were slaughtered and burned as heretics.

[Khariz]

What you're describing when you talk about her is a Christian who no longer believes in Christianity, but hasn't quite worked that out yet. She seems like she may be stuck in a rut of familiar behavior.

Maybe. Many Christians are also ignorant of what they believe, even intelligent ones who seem like they would have done the proper research.

Actually let me edit that: Many Christians are ignorant of WHY they believe what they believe. For example, many are ignorant of *where* in the Bible a certain belief comes from, or why something is done a certain why in their church. Most denominations have clearly articulated reasons for why they have a certain belief that they can back up with Scripture.

But yeah, it all boils down to "Because that's what the Bible says", which normally means "This is what they THINK the Bible says", as all denominations couldn't possibly be simultaneously correct on all things contained in the Bible.

Back to the Girl in question:

Many people that do not have a solid grounding in "what and why" they believe, are easily swayed by both other religions, other denominations, and non-religion. For example, when I was a teenager, I read a book about "Man-God Myths" in which contained MANY examples of societies having believes of Man-Gods who were born of virgin birth, taught something radical at the time, died, and were ressurected somehow. These included Bacchus, Dionysus, various Egyption dieties, various pagan dieties, etc. Jesus was listed among these as if he was just another in a pattern of such identical myths that tell the same story.

This captivated me at the time and weakened my Christian faith to nothingness. I spent the next 10 years studying Gnosticism, Pseudepigraphic texts, and every other religion for which I could get my grubby little hands on. I went through a phase where I genuinely believe that all paths led to God, and that it really didn't matter which path you picked. And I also went through Agnostic and hardcore Atheist phases as I gradually grew into a more Logical/Analytic creature (thank you Law School).

I call the latter "phases" because in the back of my mind, I never did shake my "rut of familiar behavior", as you call it. I have since gone back to examine all of my Catholic/Christian beliefs with new eyes, new scrutiny, and with a mind full of information about the world's other religions and lack thereof. Oddly, I'm more faithful and more sure of God/Jesus than I ever was before.

I'm capable of walking people through my journey, but not in a quick message board kind of way. I'm more than willing to engage in any discussions of this sort at any time though.

[Fallen]

I suppose my question is rather inane, "What is CHRISTianity without Christ?"

I just can't bring myself to believe in any of the miracles of Christ, or Moses. Mohammad I can't really talk about as I know even less about Islam than I do Christianity and Judaism. If I can't swallow the mysticism and dogma of organized religions, and without them there is nothing else TO these religions in terms of your relationship with god, none of them have anything to offer me. That is a sad realization. I certainly can't say that I don't believe in God. I just don't believe in the Christian ideal of God, or if my understanding of the two other religions is true, the Judaic or Islamic versions, either.

[Methais]

If you set aside ALL of the rituals, ceremonies, commandments, etc, what is left, if anything?

If you take a Denny's grand slam breakfast but set aside the eggs, bacon, sausage, pancakes, etc., what is left, if anything?

[Khariz]

I suppose my question is rather inane, "What is CHRISTianity without Christ?"

I just can't bring myself to believe in any of the miracles of Christ, or Moses. Mohammad I can't really talk about as I know even less about Islam than I do Christianity and Judaism. If I can't swallow the mysticism and dogma of organized religions, and without them there is nothing else TO these religions in terms of your relationship with god, none of them have anything to offer me. That is a sad realization.

I certainly can't say that I don't believe in God. I just don't believe in the Christian ideal of God, or if my understanding of the two other religions is true, the Judaic or Islam versions, either.

All three of those Abrahamic religions are talking about the same God, so that would make sense.

Judaism looks at God through a pre-Christ lense, believing their prophesied savior has not yet come.

Islam looks at God (Allah) through a post-Christ Mohammedian lense, believing there was more to it after the savior came.

Christianity is comfortably in the temporal middle ground.

Other cultist sects of Christian-like viewpoints such as Mormonism are also post-Christ in nature, and although different from Mohammed, Joseph Smith had plenty of things to add to the revelations of the Bible.


But Fallen, I'm not sure what it is you are seeking. You seem to be seeking a religion that offers more than the religion believes, which as you noted, is kinda silly. I have a 1400 page Bible and a 1000 page Catechism in front of me that helps me understand why we understand which passages of the Bible to mean what. There should be more to it? It's pretty comprehensive.

[Fallen]

If you take a Denny's grand slam breakfast but set aside the eggs, bacon, sausage, pancakes, etc., what is left, if anything?

My point was if you don't believe there to be anything special about Jesus or Moses or Mohammad other than the beliefs they set down, is there still any tangible substance left to the religion? Remove all claims of miracles, walking on water, God handing out tablets, etc, and what do you have left? I don't believe God spoke to anyone in the way he did Christ or all the rest anymore than he is speaking to the crazy person at the subway.

Does that mean I believe there is no God? No. It just means I guess I can't follow the religions that claim all there is to them are the men who believed they were directly spoken to by God. Are the teachings of Jesus and Co. any less valid if he WEREN'T able to perform miracles? If he WASN'T God's son?

[Khariz]

My point was if you don't believe there to be anything special about Jesus or Moses or Mohammad other than the beliefs they set down, is there still any tangible substance left to the religion? Remove all claims of miracles, walking on water, God handing out tablets, etc, and what do you have left? I don't believe God spoke to anyone in the way he did Christ or all the rest anymore than he is speaking to the crazy person at the subway.

Does that mean I believe there is no God? No. It just means I guess I can't follow the religions that claim all there is to them are the men who believed they were directly spoken to by God. Are the teachings of Jesus and Co. any less valid if he WEREN'T able to perform miracles? If he WASN'T God's son?

Fallen,

Take a look at the ten commandments (at least the 6 that aren't about God directly), and the teachings of Jesus in the abstract, the ones that aren't about accepting him as your Savior.

Ignore the notions of Sin and Redemption.

You are left with teachings, that if followed, have you living a Moral and Upstanding life, where no persons could ever have any problem with your character or integrity. Following the Bible, and ignoring everything about Sin and Redemption still makes you a very fine person.

There's more to Christ than being "Saved".

[Fallen]

All three of those Abrahamic religions are talking about the same God, so that would make sense.

Judaism looks at God through a pre-Christ lense, believing their prophesied savior has not yet come.

Islam looks at God (Allah) through a post-Christ Mohammedian lense, believing there was more to it after the savior came.

Christianity is comfortably in the temporal middle ground.

Other cultist sects of Christian-like viewpoints such as Mormonism are also post-Christ in nature, and although different from Mohammed, Joseph Smith had plenty of things to add to the revelations of the Bible.


But Fallen, I'm not sure what it is you are seeking. You seem to be seeking a religion that offers more than the religion believes, which as you noted, is kinda silly. I have a 1400 page Bible and a 1000 page Catechism in front of me that helps me understand why we understand which passages of the Bible to mean what. There should be more to it? It's pretty comprehensive.

My problem is I don't believe god spoke to Mohammed, Jesus, or Moses. I think the idea of god "Speaking" to man in general is silly. I don't even really believe in prayer. I guess I have my answer. I don't equate what I believe God is with how any of the religions name see him(it).

[Methais]

If nothing else, I see it as a guide to being an (overall) good person. i.e. don't take a shit in someone's Lucky Charms or let them play Barbie's Horse Adventures or watch an Uwe Boll movie.

[CrystalTears]

My problem is I don't believe god spoke to Mohammed, Jesus, or Moses. I think the idea of god "Speaking" to man in general is silly. I don't even really believe in prayer. I guess I have my answer. I don't equate what I believe God is with how any of the religions name see him(it).
If you don't believe that any of these people have a "connection" to God in some way, then yes, I believe you have your answer.

[Fallen]

Fallen,

Take a look at the ten commandments (at least the 6 that aren't about God directly), and the teachings of Jesus in the abstract, the ones that aren't about accepting him as your Savior.

Ignore the notions of Sin and Redemption.

You are left with teachings, that if followed, have you living a Moral and Upstanding life, where no persons could ever have any problem with your character or integrity. Following the Bible, and ignoring everything about Sin and Redemption still makes you a very fine person.

There's more to Christ than being "Saved".

I agree that for the most part the bible can serve as a satisfactory moral compass. However, if I don't believe Christ was the son of god, wouldn't I be better served by following a text a bit more up to date? Both would be written by a man, or men in the case of the bible, who wished to operate under the notion of doing good. They would just have different reasons for doing so. Need is a strong word, but I *want* my reasons to be based on more than the idea of faith.

[Fallen]

If you don't believe that any of these people have a "connection" to God in some way, then yes, I believe you have your answer.

Agreed. I'm just a bit thick sometimes so it takes a while to sink in.

[BriarFox]

If you want a set of ethical principles not founded on faith in a divine figure and his works on earth, then check out something like secular humanism (which is how I identify myself if I have to give a label).

Secular humanism (and there are various forms, unsurprisingly) simply focuses on society and the world rather than on God and an afterlife. It argues/believes that there is a common core of humanity in every person and that this shared identity makes everyone part of a common project. Ethical behavior arises out of that shared identity (much like Christianity's "Do unto others ..." idea). Thus, theft, murder, rape, etc are crimes against yourself. The goal is to enhance the common existence of society. It allows concepts like charity and empathy and argues against racism and sexism.

At least, that's my take on secular humanism.

[Fallen]

I definitely believe my reading should focus more in the Philosophy section than Religious. Maybe I should start with a book detailing a summery of each of the major schools of thought. Any suggestions, College boy?

[ElvenFury]

http://home.comcast.net/~fizzlepop73/images/calvin_hobbes.gif

[Fallen]

http://home.comcast.net/~fizzlepop73/images/calvin_hobbes.gif

lol

[BriarFox]

I definitely believe my reading should focus more in the Philosophy section than Religious. Maybe I should start with a book detailing a summery of each of the major schools of thought. Any suggestions, College boy?

Wikipedia actually isn't a bad place to look for basic info. Depends what sort of survey you want. A lot of philosophical overviews are going to deal with things like the Philosophy of Science or modern Aristotelianism, and you seem to want something more on ethics.

Try here for inspiration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ethical_schools_and_movements

[Fallen]

Wikipedia actually isn't a bad place to look for basic info. Depends what sort of survey you want. A lot of philosophical overviews are going to deal with things like the Philosophy of Science or modern Aristotelianism, and you seem to want something more on ethics.

Try here for inspiration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ethical_schools_and_movements

Nilandia provided me a very interesting link which seems to follow along my way of viewing God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheist

More Naturalistic than spiritualistic, but as I have just read 1 wikipedia article I can't quite claim to say, "I'm this now." I have a lot of reading to do, but atleast the general idea of Pantheism makes sense to me.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I personally think it's sad that people turn to other people for a better understanding of God at all. Common sense should dictate that the other person was born just as ignorant as the rest of us, and s/he has either merely cobbled together some beliefs based on his/her limited life observations, or simply regurgitated the beliefs taught to him/her by some other similarly ignorant fuck (or a mish-mash of the both).

Should everyone just wait for a personal lesson from Jesus?

[Sylvan Dreams]

To throw in my answer to the original question...

I believe that if you ignore the "miracles" that allegedly took place, you have a bunch of guidelines for being a "good person". Those guidelines are some of the basic rules that civilized society simply needs to function. Note how I say some, and not all.

In order to give people some hope that there really is a point to the bleakness of life, there are the notions of an afterlife, of heaven, of rebirth, of salvation. In order to get people to fall in line and not do the "wicked" things, there are the notions of hell and the devil.

That, in a nutshell, is what I believe organized religion to be - a means of getting people to act civilized and to give them hope that life has meaning and purpose.

[pabstblueribbon]

he sewed his eyes shut,
because he is afraid to see,
he tries to tell me,
what I put inside of me,
he's got the answers,
to ease my curiosity,
he dreamed a God up,
and called it Christianity.

God is dead,
and no one cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there.

he flexed his muscles,
to keep his flock of sheep in line,
he made a virus,
that would kill off all the swine,
his perfect kingdom,
of killing, suffering and pain.
demands devotion,
atrocities done in his name.

God is dead,
and no one cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there,
your God is dead,
and no one cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there.

God is dead,
and no on cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there,
your God is dead,
and no one cares,
(drowning in his own hypocrisy)
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there,
(burning with your God in humility)

See you guys on Sunday!

[pabstblueribbon]

Fuck im good at killing threads.

Blow up your TV, throw away your paper, go to the country, build you a home.
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches, try and find Jesus on your own.

I got kicked off Noah's Ark
I turn my cheek to unkind remarks
there was two of everything
but one of me
and when the rains came tumbling down
I held my breath and I stood my ground
and I watched that ship go sailing
out to sea

[Latrinsorm]

I really can't even begin how she can hold to those beliefs after seeing how much of the Bible, and even the Old Testament can be shown as inaccurate, or at least dubious in its CORE truths.None of the core truths of the Bible have been or can be "shown" to be anything. As articles of faith, they are either believed or not - reason cannot be applied to them any more than WD-40 can be applied to air.

If a person does believe in the divinity of Christ, there is no "beyond Christ" any more than there is a "before time". Christ is Love and the Universe, and lots of other things with capital letters, and at the fundamental level *being* like him is the important thing. The particulars of prayers or rituals are all given as examples, and the Gospel of John specifically notes that it does not offer a comprehensive account of Jesus' life. It is not possible to boil down all of these directives or find a singular element from which they all follow, but this can be stated for any serious ethical system. It's a problem with language or communication, or perhaps logic: some things simply can't be stated as concisely as we would like. John chapter 16 gives us an interesting take on this very question, where the disciples grow (understandably) frustrated with Jesus' parables and allusions and just want some straight talk, but Jesus is not John McCain.

I would also point out that I don't have some "grand arbiter of truth" position or power when it comes to Christianity. Nobody has the same eyes, and in the same way nobody has the same Christianity. For instance, when BriarFox says "Technically... she's no longer a Christian. That is *the* core belief.", what he says is true about some Christian orthodoxies. That said, there are Christianities where the beliefs of the woman in question would be ignored, tolerated, or even lauded. Some people quite literally live and die by the accounts of these "miracles", as you refer to them, and some do not, all while reasonably calling themselves Christian.
Common sense should dictate that the other person was born just as ignorant as the rest of us, and s/he has either merely cobbled together some beliefs based on his/her limited life observations, or simply regurgitated the beliefs taught to him/her by some other similarly ignorant fuck (or a mish-mash of the both).Common sense is trash. Try doing physics with common sense and you end up with the Almagest; medicine, and you end up with bloodletting. Common sense is barely above hindbrain hunger as a cognitive motivation, and leads just as easily to hate, lynching, and death as any supposed religious doctrine.

[Gan]

I personally think it's sad that people turn to other people for a better understanding of [God] at all. Common sense should dictate that the other person was born just as ignorant as the rest of us, and s/he has either merely cobbled together some beliefs based on his/her limited life observations, or simply regurgitated the beliefs taught to him/her by some other similarly ignorant fuck (or a mish-mash of the both).

Lets play a little game. Insert the following words below, one at a time, to replace what is bracketed above, and re-read the paragraph.

[Science]
[Medicine]
[Philosophy]
[Politics]
[Economics]

etc.

We're all we have here on this planet. There's no other higher authority to turn to for the receipt of answers to the big questions. So naturally, there has to be a catch-all for the unexplained and or unanswerable. And naturally we have to rely on other people to help answer those questions to which we seek to be answered.

We're also a very young species.

If religion is still around a billion years from now (and if we're still around), I bet its a totally different picture to behold.

[Daniel]

I don't have time to read this entire thread, but if it hasn't been brought up or mentioned, I highly reccomend you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, he lays forth an argument to your question which is very practical and straight forward. As someone who is not really religious I was really moved by the book.

[Fallen]

I don't have time to read this entire thread, but if it hasn't been brought up or mentioned, I highly reccomend you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, he lays forth an argument to your question which is very practical and straight forward. As someone who is not really religious I was really moved by the book.

I will add it to the list.

[BriarFox]

C.S. Lewis was pretty awesome - medievalist, writer, philosopher ... He and Tolkein were friends at Oxford and after. It's interesting that they both produced some of the great works of 20th century fiction, among other things.

[Celephais]

I pretty much believe that if there is some almighty creator, he doesn't care about the little shit in life. So specifics of belief/rituals don't really matter to me, if god would weigh my eternal soul against the fact that I put chicken on my nachos during lent...

In reality I take the whole agnostic approach, but more so than I don't know, I don't care ... if I'm a good person, and whatever god there is doesn't think I deserve whatever salvation he has, that's a system I don't want to be a part of, and it may seem stupid for me to say I have too much pride to play his game with my soul, well... I'm not going to not enjoy the life I know I have over it.

[Khariz]

I pretty much believe that if there is some almighty creator, he doesn't care about the little shit in life. So specifics of belief/rituals don't really matter to me, if god would weigh my eternal soul against the fact that I put chicken on my nachos during lent...



Don't get confused between Scripture and Tradition.

God has never said that he cares about us eating meat during Lent. Think of this as a forbearance that the Church (and very few denominations still even talk about meat abstinence anyway) asks of us as a way to SHOW our respect for God. The idea is that if you don't do it, you don't respect God, and that in some way, that must be a Sin. But...there are a myriad of reasons that you might do it, and it be no disrespect to anyone, including God.

I personally don't eat meat on the Fridays of Lent, which is the minimum that my Church asks of me. I don't do it because I feel like I would be sinning if I didn't. I do it because it helps me stay mindful of God all day on Friday, which is something I sadly do not normally do.

[Khariz]

if I'm a good person, and whatever god there is doesn't think I deserve whatever salvation he has, that's a system I don't want to be a part of, and it may seem stupid for me to say I have too much pride to play his game with my soul, well... I'm not going to not enjoy the life I know I have over it.

I decided to come back and address this separately.

It's funny, but I felt EXACTLY the same way at one point. I'm sure my mother will remember me having this EXACT conversation with her about 14 years ago now. I told her that I thought the "game" was bullshit. That it was bullshit that I got the shaft if EITHER I chose to not play at all, or if I chose against God. It didn't seem like "free will" to me, if I was being coerced by some type of eternal separation (however you want to think about it), by making the wrong choice.

This idea is what led me to separate myself from Christianity, and go on the 10 year hiatus where I learned and practiced other religions. I eventually found my way back, through my own process, and in my own time, and my faith has been strengthened for it. There was no miraculous or supernatural event involved. In fact, there was probably more logic and analysis involved in it than would seem to make sense from a short posting on a message board.

Oh, and it's not stupid of you to say that you have too much pride to play His game. I'm sure you do. I did.

Psalm 10:4
In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

Ecclesiastes 7:8
The end of a matter is better than its beginning, and patience is better than pride.

Perhaps some day, your path will lead you in the same direction as mine.

[BriarFox]

Oh, and it's not stupid of you to say that you have too much pride to play His game. I'm sure you do. I did.

Psalm 10:4
In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

Ecclesiastes 7:8
The end of a matter is better than its beginning, and patience is better than pride.

Perhaps some day, your path will lead you in the same direction as mine.

That whole apparent lack of free will to choose God has always been a problem for me. It comes glaring out in Milton's Paradise Lost, where God is really something of an asshole. Unfortunately, I don't recall at the moment how Milton resolves the issue, if he does.

[Khariz]

That whole apparent lack of free will to choose God has always been a problem for me. It comes glaring out in Milton's Paradise Lost, where God is really something of an asshole. Unfortunately, I don't recall at the moment how Milton resolves the issue, if he does.

Actually, Daniel's suggestion of Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis is a really good book that addresses the topic of Free Will in an excellent way.

I can do it myself, but he's much more eloquent, haha. It's the "apparent lack" that's the problem, and not that there actually is a lack. I'll try to form my current knowledge on this topic into something cohesive if anyone cares to hear it.

[LMingrone]

Isn't it very simple? Humans have always used religion to explain things we don't yet understand. I went to Catholic school for 8 years, was an Alter Boy (yeah yeah yeah, make fun of me), and saw how fucked up the church was. Maybe it was because I got into math and science that I started doubting things.
It's really a infinite argument. We could say it was a big bang, or a god that created everything. But what came before this big bang or this god? Shit boggles the mind. I consider myself agnostic, no matter how hip that term is nowadays. We don't have all the answers yet.

/end philosophical mode

[BriarFox]

Actually, Daniel's suggestion of Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis is a really good book that addresses the topic of Free Will in an excellent way.

I can do it myself, but he's much more eloquent, haha. It's the "apparent lack" that's the problem, and not that there actually is a lack. I'll try to form my current knowledge on this topic into something cohesive if anyone cares to hear it.

I may pick it up myself, then. Like I was saying earlier, C.S. Lewis is an interesting fellow.

[Nilandia]

C.S. Lewis was a brilliant writer, no doubt. Mere Christianity has been on my 'to read' list for a long time. I should probably pick it up at the library now that I'm without a book to work through.

Gretchen

[Khariz]

I just ordered a new copy of it. I must have given mine to someone and forgot.