Fighting in Hockey

[Xanator]

Action under way to eliminate "staged" fights (http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=413255)

I know there isn't an abundance of hockey fans on the boards, but. Thoughts, anyone?

The article does a nice job laying out the facts, at least. You can see how much fighting has decreased over the years just by watching the game, but there are pretty significant numbers there. It's also interesting to note how things have changed in respect to the way penalties are doled out in the aftermath (particularly the under-utilized instigator penalty), and the proposed rule changes.

The idea is basically to divide fights into different categories, most notably fights in retaliation to illegal hits (and you see a lot of fights in retaliation to perfectly legal hits these days, and that's sort of a sticking point) and "staged" fights. "Staged" fights take place off of a faceoff, usually when one team is running away from the other on the scoreboard, and are one player's way of getting his team and/or a home crowd fired up and back into the game. This is where hockey fans in favor of fighting defend the act, saying there's a strategic element involved in fighting at the right time, etc. "Staged" fights are the fights that the GMs want to get rid of, not fighting altogether.

I dunno, you tell me. I have no problem with a fight off of a faceoff. I often find myself wishing somebody on my team would step up and do it if they're getting blown out. What happened to the guy in the OHL is tragic, but it's also not the first time someone has died as a result of something that happened on the ice (or the diamond, or the gridiron, for that matter). Hockey is THE full-contact sport, and everyone who laces 'em up does so at their own risk. You're otherwise looking at some really complicated changes to a set of rules that are already really complicated enough to turn off most casual fans.

I dunno, it just seems to me like this is another wild stab by the Bettman-era NHL to appeal to everyone, which is fine, but to somehow make sure that no one is alienated or offended by anything or anyone in the game (see Sean Avery). It bothers me a little.

[Fallen]

I used to like hockey for the fights. I feel like it is a part of the game. To me, removing fights from hockey would be like telling NFL players that can't hit each other so hard (Something I heard they were considering). But meh, I am not in Michigan anymore so I don't really bother to follow my home team. I don't think it will make hockey any more popular to try to clean it up.

I just watch UFC now anyway in terms of sports to give you an idea of my perspective.

[ElanthianSiren]

I used to like hockey for the fights. I feel like it is a part of the game. To me, removing fights from hockey would be like telling NFL players that can't hit each other so hard (Something I heard they were considering).

x2. Hockey is one of the sports I tolerate for the fights, and it's always amazed me that they're doing all that on ice skates! A friend suggested I try watching rugby for that fix, and I'm seriously considering it.

[Clove]

I went to boxing match once and a hockey game broke out.

[Gibreficul]

Alright, I'm REALLY late in reply to this thread.

First, for those who don't know me, other than as "that asshole, Gibreficul" let me tell you a little bit about myself.

When I was in about 7th grade, my high school established an ice hockey team, which I joined and played for until I graduated, and then for 2 more years into college. At the high school level of play, fighting isn't a real huge issue, however tempers flare, and I was involved in a game where the opposing team's bench cleared. Our coach would not let anybody on the bench leave, however about 3 or 4 players jumped the boards anyway. All of the players who got involved from the bench received disciplinary action. The next time the two teams faced each other, the league passed notification that any fighting would result in both teams forfeiting, and the game being called. The "bench clearing brawl" is not acceptable at the high school, or at any level.

I moved onto college, and played for the ice hockey team there. Similarly, there were teams who we'd have big old brawls with, and other teams who were content to just play the game. The NHL is much like that. Some teams are not built to compete in a game that turns into a brawl. Others thrive in games like that. Those teams typically don't make the playoffs, and if they do, they're quickly eliminated in a round or 2.

This helmet situation they're discussing is ridiculous. If they're going to allow fighting, then helmets SHOULD come off. Why fight if the head and face are protected? Especially considering all of the pads hockey players wear. Hockey is a very physical game. It's full contact, and that can really get tempers to flare. The game needs fighting, if nothing else to keep the fans who enjoy that sort of thing entertained, and to give players a controlled environment to vent their angers onto the opposition. Almost every team has at least one guy that's their main fighter. They get traded and moved around the league, but the real hockey fans can rattle off at least 5 or 10 "brawlers" in the NHL without much thought. Goddard, Laraque, Igilna (Quite a player, skills for the game and fighting) Brachere (washington, I misspelled it probably) Avery, and the list goes on. These players exist to protect the teams' skills players. They fight to set the tone, they fight to change the game's momentum, and they fight because it pleases the fans.

Now, the problem isn't these guys who are indeed fighters. The problem is the players who are not fighters getting involved in fights. That's when the injuries and mishaps happen. Feditinko (#26, Pittsburgh) ended up breaking his hand on Colby Armstrong's (atlanta thrashers) forehead during a fight. Neither of these guys are known as fighters and of course, it resulted in injury.

I think the league is pushing this helmets during fights things way too far. It seems to me that they're trying to indirectly eliminate fighting from the game. If steep penalties, including fines and suspensions are the result of fighting without a helmet, hardly any players will fight. I don't want to punch a hard plastic helmet. I want to punch skin on skull. It won't hurt my hand as much.

Now, what I believe the league needs to do is call a more consistent game. I'd like to see the same penalty called on opening day and in game 7 of the cup finals. This is simply not the case. The rules seem to change in playoff hockey. A lot of minor infractions go uncalled, even when they're blatantly obvious, the most common is interference against the skills players because the league wants the game to maintain it's physicality in the playoffs. This is counter-productive relative to the new rules since the players strike. The league wanted more scoring, and to do that, they started to crack down on stick infractions, holding, and interference. Come the playoffs, these "new rules" seem to go by the wayside. Protect the players that the people come to see. Fighters are there to protect these star players from the cheapshots that skills players are no longer protected from. You hit Crosby, Goddard is going to fuck your day up (assuming he's in the lineup.) Back in the day, if you hit Gretzky, McSorly was going to pay you a visit. This is what the game is, and should be. Actions, reactions, and reprocussions for your actions toward skills players. Sometimes this is a fight, which is part of the game. Let them play, let them fight, if the helmets are coming off, it's probably for safety, as ass backwards as that seems. Nobody wants a broken hand, or to slice themselves open on that hard plastic.


Gibreficul, HARDCORE Penguins fans. DOWN WITH THE RED WINGS.

Buy my lockpicks, they're PRETTY!
www.playershops.com/gibreficul

[Jayvn]

Hockey is about the only sport I can tolerate watching.. I don't follow sports, but yeah I pretty much watched it for the physical intensity of things. If I wanted to watch ice ballet I'd turn it to the oxygen channel.
What's the point of a sport if they keep nerfing the shit out of it?
Imagine if they stopped all the staged fights in wrestling...
I also heard jai lai is pretty cool due to injury potential.
Isn't having the muscle on your team part of the strategy as a coach?
Damnit

[Gibreficul]

The thing that pisses me off about Hockey is how when someone gets hurt off of a clean hit, they call the guy who cleaned his clock for a penalty, almost every time without fail. I say the guy that got hurt should get the penalty for delay of game.

And yes, having a bruiser or 2 in the lineup is most certainly a strategy, however not always the best strategy a coach can use. I'd much prefer, as a coach, to beat a team by keeping the puck from them, in their zone, and burying it behind their goaltender than by trying to win by intimidation and an excessive amount of physical play.
:club:

Gibreficul

[radamanthys]

Hockey players that I've met- and I've met many, being from upstate ny- have been incredible douchebags, almost across the board.

I purport that if the sport, as a whole, didn't encourage meatheadedness, there'd be less of this douchebaggery. That would (and should) start at the top- this is a good idea. It'd be a much bigger problem, I think, if the sport was as widespread as, say, football. More people would take notice.

[Sean of the Thread]

fights are a part of hockey and need to remain.

might as well remove high and tight pitches and beaners too.

[Gibreficul]

Hockey players that I've met- and I've met many, being from upstate ny- have been incredible douchebags, almost across the board.

I purport that if the sport, as a whole, didn't encourage meatheadedness, there'd be less of this douchebaggery. That would (and should) start at the top- this is a good idea. It'd be a much bigger problem, I think, if the sport was as widespread as, say, football. More people would take notice.

Maybe they're douchebags because they're from upstate NY, and not necessarily because they're hockey players. Most hockey players I've met are intelligent people. The game isn't like football, where some fatass meathead can go on the field with the basic instruction.... hit the guy lined up in front of you when the ball is snapped and don't let him by you. Hockey players have to have a good knowledge of both offense and defense, and be able to cover up for their linemen. A winger can get switched to a center with just a pass and a simple cross-over with his team-mate. Until they reposition themselves, they have to keep the position they're in so they can stay sound defensively. Also remember, when a player comes out of the penalty box, they have to know what position to assume, even if they're supposed to assume a forward positon as a d-man, or vise versa. Also, if you see a defense player pinch into the offensive zone, one of the forwards had better be covering up for him, or you end up with odd man breaks and a frusturated goalie.


Gibreficul

GO PENGUINS! Let's end Hurricane season early!

[ronaldo]

In now days fighting is happening very often in hockey

[kookiegod]

Gib analyzed this one right.

The 'goons' are part of hockey and they to do be the enforcers. My favorite of all time is obviously Lyndon Byers, of the Bruins, and he now does sports in the mornings for the Boston rock station , www.waaf.com

And yes, the rules change all the time. I could do with less fights, Clove stole my joke but i'd like to see more skill play, but when its needed, go for it.

~Paul

[Mateius]

errr, a league full of paul kariyas?

[LMingrone]

We're a generation of pussies. All those old school guys played without helmets/face guards/pads. Badass. Fights are part of the game. The NHL knows they'd lose a ton of TV viewers if they got rid of fights, and they've already almost collapsed a few times.

I'd rather see them get rid of offsides, two line passing, and icing rules. Make it more fast paced. Just my opinion.

[Gibreficul]

We're a generation of pussies. All those old school guys played without helmets/face guards/pads. Badass. Fights are part of the game. The NHL knows they'd lose a ton of TV viewers if they got rid of fights, and they've already almost collapsed a few times.

I'd rather see them get rid of offsides, two line passing, and icing rules. Make it more fast paced. Just my opinion.

:tool:


You're obviously OBLIVIOUS to current NHL hockey, and the evolution to what it currently is. Also, your comments about this generation being "pussies" is ignorant, at best. Football players wear pads, and helmets and they don't have a frozen piece of vulcanized rubber flying around their playing surface at upwards of 110 MPH. They don't have the risk of being clipped by a skate blades, sticks, or for that matter, being crushed into a wall. I guess by your logic, football players are bigger pussies than hockey players. I can't say I don't agree with that, but I am a hockey fan before anything else, so there is a bias factor to consider.

That said, go out on the ice with those guys and call them pussies and see if you ever walk the same again... Better yet, just see if you can skate first... Consider all the things those guys do all while standing on a pair of 1/8" strips of metal. Any idiot can run, (See Forrest Gump) not everyone can skate, and even less can skate well enough to play hockey.

The helmets and other equipment evolved because the game actually got WAY more dangerous. Most notably, and the reason for the first use of face masks and helmets by goalies was the advent of curved stick blades. History tells us that by mistake, a Chicago player's stick was caught under a locker room door, and the blade got bent. He used the stick despite its apparent defect and found that he could do some amazing things with a curved stick, including DRASTICALLY increased power and accuracy for his forehand shots, as well as improved forehand puck handling. Just remember, "way back then" there were no composite, graphite, or aluminum sticks, nor were there rules governing the amount of curve a stick could legally have. The sticks were crudely made of wood and I doubt anyone was shooting the puck at even 80 MPH, let alone the 100+ MPH that is typical from the hardest shooters in the game today.

Now, for the real schooling...

The league ALREADY did away with 2 line offside passes. The rules governing icing have been changed over the past few seasons as well. The original icing rule change was to disallow teams who are guilty of an icing to change their line, meaning a tired group stays on the ice for a defensive zone face off, while the opposition may put a fresh line on the ice. Since TV timeouts are pretty predictable based on the game clock, teams who were hemmed into their defensive zone would ice the puck at certain times of the game, tired or not, knowing they were getting a couple minutes of rest before the puck dropped again. This past season, that rule was changed so a TV timeout can not happen immediately following an icing call.

Another notable change was the trapezoid behind the goals designating a "no play zone" for the goalies. I consider that a "Martin Broudeur" rule due to his extreme puck handling and skating abilities. Now goalies can't play pucks from the corners, rather they have to play them in front of the goal line, or within the trapezoid behind the goal.

Also, the goal line was moved back closer to the end boards, creating better opportunities for pucks to bounce back in front of the goal and create scoring opportunities. The offensive zones were made bigger (blue lines moved closer to center ice) creating more offensive zone space.

All of these changes were intended to make the game faster paced and higher scoring, and more exciting.

As for the NHL losing TV viewers if fighting was eliminated from the game... I doubt that. Sure, a handful of fans would be upset, and possibly stop watching, however there is also a group of people who are appalled by the fighting in hockey, and would embrace the game for removing that aspect. Trust me on this one, the NHL has already taken surveys over the past few years, and found that fighting is not considered by the majority of the fan base to be a requirement for exciting and competitive hockey.

Now then... GO PENGUINS!

Gibreficul, your hockey god, and HARDCORE PENGUINS FAN!


OH, and for the record, I don't recall much if any fighting since the first round of the playoffs ended. TV ratings are not suffering, in fact, the Penguins/Capitals series set hockey viewing records on Versus. Also consider, Versus had given up the rights to broadcast to the Pittsburgh area to Fox Sports Pittsburgh (FSP) in order to give as many viewers the chance to watch as possible, since Versus is still not included in basic cable packages in this area. These viewers in the Pittsburgh area, about 350k tuned to FSP (a fox sports viewing record in and of itself) are not included in the record setting ratings Versus boasted during that series.

[Sean of the Thread]

oh here comes gib now that the penguins mad the cup finals.

go wings

[Gibreficul]

Hey Sean... enjoy that Children's Hospital telethon they're showing in place of game #1 in the Tampa Bay area. If I lived there, I'd be calling my NBC affiliate and raising hell. At the very least, they should allow another channel to broadcast the game. (I hope something gets done for the viewers in the Tampa Bay area. It is a hockey market after all.)


Should be a good series regardless. 2 words for you....

HOSSA CURSE.


He'll never win the big one.


Gibreficul has spoken

[Dhuul]

Go Pens...Sweep and give the Wings some crippling, career-ending injuries for good measure.

[radamanthys]

Maybe they're douchebags because they're from upstate NY, and not necessarily because they're hockey players. Most hockey players I've met are intelligent people. The game isn't like football, where some fatass meathead can go on the field with the basic instruction.... hit the guy lined up in front of you when the ball is snapped and don't let him by you. Hockey players have to have a good knowledge of both offense and defense, and be able to cover up for their linemen. A winger can get switched to a center with just a pass and a simple cross-over with his team-mate. Until they reposition themselves, they have to keep the position they're in so they can stay sound defensively. Also remember, when a player comes out of the penalty box, they have to know what position to assume, even if they're supposed to assume a forward positon as a d-man, or vise versa. Also, if you see a defense player pinch into the offensive zone, one of the forwards had better be covering up for him, or you end up with odd man breaks and a frusturated goalie.


Gibreficul

GO PENGUINS! Let's end Hurricane season early!

Yea... so they can use strategy to play hockey- that's what hockey players do. It's a bad example to rebut with. The question is: are they 'good' people? Do they typically respect others?

I make no qualifications about the sport itself. I'm generalizing, it's not across the board, but people who play are more often douchebags than football players, wrestlers, lacrosse, soccer or any other team sport. I posit that they're bred so by the nature of the sport; it encourages violence against others as well as a superiority complex by nature of the training.

[Sean of the Thread]

Hey Sean... enjoy that Children's Hospital telethon they're showing in place of game #1 in the Tampa Bay area. If I lived there, I'd be calling my NBC affiliate and raising hell. At the very least, they should allow another channel to broadcast the game. (I hope something gets done for the viewers in the Tampa Bay area. It is a hockey market after all.)


Should be a good series regardless. 2 words for you....

HOSSA CURSE.


He'll never win the big one.


Gibreficul has spoken


Gib I agree. At least play the shit in a hockey market.

I'd have to go out to like Winghouse to catch the cup right now which is bullshit. Way to alienate us puck fans in TB. :(

[Sean of the Thread]

and give the Wings some crippling, career-ending injuries for good measure.


Real dick thing to wish upon them.

[Gibreficul]

Real dick thing to wish upon them.

I hate the Red Wings as much if not more than anyone... and I don't wish for them to get injuries. I wish for them to lose, that hurts way more, and it lasts a lifetime.

As for the upstate NY guy who thinks most if not all hockey players are d-bags. Eh, perhaps it's the team you're dealing with. Sometimes a coach can influence a team's attitude, and even influence how they act off the ice. Often pumping up a team's confidence is a good strategy to transform a bad team into a good team, even if the side effect is a bunch of arrogant d-bags. If every player on the team doesn't have full confidence in every other player on the team, they are doomed to lose. A strong mind, sound gameplan, confidence, and a team oriented mentality is what wins in hockey, regardless of the score. The obvious such as practice and hard work were excluded intentionally, as that applies to every sport.


Gibreficul

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm from Rochester and used to goto American's games under a coach you may have heard of... John Tortorella. That and my uncle is in hockey upper management.

[Fallen]

Go Wings.

[Dhuul]

my wishes have just about as much power as they do in GS

Detroit will get what's coming to them.

Chris Chelios will walk on to the ice for Game 1 and instantly splinter into a million ancient fragments, destroying the Joe.

[Dhuul]

Also, to the actual subject: Fighting ok, but I would change it to no visors unless you've had a documented eye injury etc. And then if you fight with one, fines....

Fighting for the sake of fighting to draw in fans to your shoddy franchise (see St. Louis) ...acceptable!

[LMingrone]

:tool:
You're obviously OBLIVIOUS to current NHL hockey, and the evolution to what it currently is. Also, your comments about this generation being "pussies" is ignorant, at best.

I was just giving my opinion as to what would make *ME* watch hockey more. The pussy comment was just hyperbole. Any one of those dudes would beat my ass if I said that to their faces. Maybe it's just me, but hockey is just too low scoring, and besides the playoffs, is not much fun to watch. Again, that's just me. You might have your own opinions, and you sound like more of a knowledgeable person when it comes to the sport.

[Gibreficul]

I'm from Rochester and used to goto American's games under a coach you may have heard of... John Tortorella. That and my uncle is in hockey upper management.

I remember PLAYING American University. Good times, always. Going TO American University, we got the "OK, this is the rink where the Capitals used to practice. It's in a shit part of town, so when the bus stops, grab your gear and run for the door. The people around here know where the pawn shops are, and hockey equipment pawns as well as anything. Also, we don't want to be witness to any shootings. The cops will make us give statements instead of play our game."

When American came to us... we invited them to our after party. Since they were staying the night before heading back to DC, they came, and it was good times. Hell, I still have pictures somewhere. In case you're wondering, I played for Shippensburg in 1998 & 1999.

As for the Blues.... you guys had a tough season with injuries and all. Wasn't there some sort of golf cart accident for one of your players that caused him to miss the entire season? Eh, my head is hazy... They'll be much better next year, so long as they don't crash any golf carts this summer.

And yes, Sean, I know that John Tortalini (Yes, it's misspelled intentionally) is the head coach for the Rangers. Goddamn... how the hell did they lose to Washington after going up 3-1 in the series... DAMN, just DAMN.

Gibreficul

ON TOPIC! If you expect to see fighting this series, you will be disappointed.


Gibreficul

[Gibreficul]

I just googled John Torterella and I now know... he was coaching the Rochester Americans, not American University, as I first assumed you met... Regardless... he needs to stop throwing water bottles at fans, even if they ARE Capitals fans. :lol:


Gibreficul

[Sean of the Thread]

lol

Seriously there are about 4 puck fans here and me and you count for two WTF PEOPLE...

[Dhuul]

I think most GS players aren't sports fans in general. Huge blanket statement, don't bomb my basement.

Of what sports fans there are, not many are hockey fans because...there's not too many hockey fans outside of Canada :) I think you have to play it as a kid (or adult, whatever) to really enjoy/appreciate the sport.

[Fallen]

Figured this thread was as good as any. Wings are up 2 nothing in the series. The second game could have gone either way, as the wings got some VERY lucky bounces. Same with the first game. Now that they have a 2 game lead, I don't see thing 'guins making a comeback. Pretty nuts that they played Back-to-back Finals games, that has to be exhausting.

[AnticorRifling]

If your sport is so boring that it needs fighting to justify keeping fans there is an issue. If your sport is played by people that can't keep their emotions in check and they have to release by doing something that's not part of the game instead of focusing their anger and winning there is an issue. I like hockey, I like fighting, I think they can be mutually exclusive.

[Geshron]

Hockey and fighting are definitely my 2 favorite sports. The finesse and hand/eye coordination involved (not to mention being on ice skates) is second to none IMO. I particularly enjoy the fights of course but moreso watching Zetterberg, Hossa, and Maltby get smashed! However, if you know of the verbal exchanges that take place in any sport it really is unique in the sense that more can be carried out than idle chit-chat I feel.

[LMingrone]

The last game was an example of this. The crowd went nuts for the brawls at the end of the game. It's all Sportscenter showed, over, and over, and over. Sports radio still hasn't shut the hell up about Malkin.

Now, I've never played hockey, except for on my pond when I was a kid, with ghetto plastic nets and fake pucks. So I guess, you who have played have a better respect for the current state of the NHL. The NHL needs more "casual" viewers though. It is a business.

I have tons of respect for hockey players though. They are honestly some of the best athletes in all of sports.

/stopped watching hockey when The Whalers skipped town. GIVE US A TEAM AGAIN!

[Sean of the Thread]

If your sport is so boring that it needs fighting to justify keeping fans there is an issue. If your sport is played by people that can't keep their emotions in check and they have to release by doing something that's not part of the game instead of focusing their anger and winning there is an issue. I like hockey, I like fighting, I think they can be mutually exclusive.


It IS part of the game and always has been. It's called enforcing.

*example some goon roughs up your 180lb star... send out the enforcer.

[AnticorRifling]

It IS part of the game and always has been. It's called enforcing.

*example some goon roughs up your 180lb star... send out the enforcer.

I know it's always been a part of the game but I don't feel it should be.

[Sean of the Thread]

It really has changed a lot the past few years. I'm actually enjoying the speed now and less contact.

[Bhuryn]

Ice + sticks + round thing + people + fighting = Hockey

Subract the fighting and you have:

Ice + sticks + round thing + people = Curling

[Gibreficul]

Figured this thread was as good as any. Wings are up 2 nothing in the series. The second game could have gone either way, as the wings got some VERY lucky bounces. Same with the first game. Now that they have a 2 game lead, I don't see thing 'guins making a comeback. Pretty nuts that they played Back-to-back Finals games, that has to be exhausting.

The Pens won't lay down for Detroit, if that's what you're expecting. 2-1 now. Detroit looked tired and scared in the 3rd period of game 3. Maybe it's me, but I saw Lidstrom and Helm specifically flinching when the puck came near them with no black jerseys around.

As for you NBA people coming over here to talk shit... Meet me on the ice and I'll carve you into little bits, or STFU. I don't go to your basketball thread and tell you how unskilled those tall, lanky freaks of nature couldn't have chosen a less exciting activity to monopolize a channel or 2 on my TV. I'd rather watch curling... or ladies tennis. Or their child support hearings.

Gibreficul

GO PENS!

[Fallen]

Lawl. Took for you to win a game to speak up. But yeah, we'll see how it goes.

[Dhuul]

Hair pulling in hockey. Yes or no.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/63764

[it's the 2nd fight]

[Carl Spackler]

At this point I could care less who wins, so long as the series goes as long as possible. The more hockey the better, baseball for the next 4 months is going to bore the shit out of me.

[Gibreficul]

Lawl. Took for you to win a game to speak up. But yeah, we'll see how it goes.

Like they say, the series doesn't start until someone wins on the road.


Gibreficul... GO PENS! :club:

[Fallen]

It is neck and neck now. I have trouble watching games without screaming at the screen. I have stress issues. Still, it is fun to follow the game's score and reading recaps and the like.

[Gibreficul]

A series worthy of being called "the championship"

Nuff said.

Gibreficul, so happy there's going to be a game 6.