CMANS suck

[Hecates]

im a ranged user and sick of messing with CMANS.
SO.. how important are cmans if one is fully 1.5x in dodging?

i do have about 40 cman ranks, but i know i can use the points else where.
i have 4 ranks in disarm, and thats all i have used.

the question is do i unlearn the rest of the ranks, and say screw it? since all our cmans suck, stay at 40 ranks, and no more?

now if i stay with what i have, what should i learn, ive done mfire, cmovement, sweep, sbs, dirtkick, and even shield bash, all fun but not really needed when i hunt.

[Widgets]

If you used Ranged weapons, just get enough CM for whatever cmans you want to use/defend against, after that...Fuck'em I say!

[thefarmer]

Depending on your level, the more past 50-60 you are, the more you need the CMAN defense, versus actively using them.

[droit]

I'd get those last 5 ranks and master disarm. You'll appreciate it later.

Sweep is another good defensive maneuver to have.

[Hecates]

aye i was thinking about mastering disarm, and if i can get some flaring leg greaves, relearning sweep, but how many ranks i need to actually use it on lvl like critters?

but all that sets me back even further

[Farn]

As a ranged user, I enjoy dirtkick because it lowers the block and evade chance of the target, so there's less chance of my bolts deflecting off into the ionosphere when going against shield users. I don't use it constantly, but I do use it on critters that are peskily good at blocking or evading.

Yes. Peskily.

Other perks of Dirtkick that I enjoy:

- It takes very little stamina to execute.
- It only takes 3 seconds to execute.
- It puts the target into roundtime, sometimes even on failures.
- There's a chance it will stun the target. Not necessary or consistent, but fun.
- You can do it just as effectively from a defensive stance.
- It lowers target AS, which is handy against critters that can normally only just barely nick you but still stun you into the next millennium with a flare (or outright kill you with a particularly crit-tastic flare).
- It lowers target perception if you need to slip into hiding.
- It's very satisfying to kick a clod of mud into the eyes of people that are annoying you.

Dirtkick is the only maneuver I've never considered getting rid of for something else.

[Stunseed]

4 ranks of sweep is a good goal.

Stunseed, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Focus focus 4
Dirtkick dirtkick 4
Disarm Weapon disarm 4
Sweep sweep 4
Feint feint 4

[Hecates]

Depending on your level, the more past 50-60 you are, the more you need the CMAN defense, versus actively using them.
well im just over 60, but wont dodging help me more then the cman training?

[Hecates]

4 ranks of sweep is a good goal.

so another 30 ranks...

so i need 75 ranks to master disarm, and 4 in sweep...

sounds like im gona have to work cmans in my training, an drop dodging to 1x

[Stunseed]

A "normal" Ranger sposed to .75x dodge.

[droit]

Dodge does not help defend against combat maneuvers.

[TheLastShamurai]

What all CMANs can a Ranger learn?

[BriarFox]

The only real reason to master a cman is if you get a neat bonus for doing it - in the case of a ranged user, it means you can disarm open-handed. Since your right hand is normally empty if you're not holding an arrow, you can imagine how useful that is.

[Stunseed]

Which is why I stop at 4 ranks, to save myself alot of trouble.

Though the ranged advantage of open disarm is pretty neat.

[droit]

Combat Movement (cmovement), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Combat Focus (focus), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Combat Mastery (cmastery), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Shadow Mastery (smastery), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 4)
Dirtkick (dirtkick), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Shield Bash (sbash), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Disarm Weapon (disarm), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Sweep (sweep), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Feint (feint), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Hamstring (hamstring), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Precision (precision), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 6)
Garrote (garrote), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Subdual Strike (sstrike), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Multi-Fire (mfire), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Trip (trip), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)

Plus Sidebyside

[droit]

The only real reason to master a cman is if you get a neat bonus for doing it - in the case of a ranged user, it means you can disarm open-handed. Since your right hand is normally empty if you're not holding an arrow, you can imagine how useful that is.

No, the real reason to master disarm is to defend against it the absolute best you can. It's the only maneuver that will potentially save you tens or even hundreds of millions of silver. The 5th rank of sweep, on the other hand, is not nearly as big a deal.

[TheLastShamurai]

Combat Movement (cmovement), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Combat Focus (focus), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Combat Mastery (cmastery), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Shadow Mastery (smastery), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 4)
Dirtkick (dirtkick), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Shield Bash (sbash), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Disarm Weapon (disarm), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Sweep (sweep), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Feint (feint), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Hamstring (hamstring), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Precision (precision), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 6)
Garrote (garrote), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Subdual Strike (sstrike), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Multi-Fire (mfire), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)
Trip (trip), Rank 1 (CM points needed: 3)

Plus Sidebyside


That is not too bad. It's about the same as Paladins and Bards just with slight differences. I just wish that we all had access to the same shit. Semis would have a pretty sweet list then.

[danielsh]

Which is why I stop at 4 ranks, to save myself alot of trouble.

What's the % difference in success rate for 4 ranks vs 5 ranks?

I don't have any concrete evidence, but I seem to remember that sweeping with only 4 ranks had an unacceptably high rate of failure, given that failure resulted in wasted stamina and 5 seconds of RT incurred for nothing.

- Cloakhe

[BriarFox]

What's the % difference in success rate for 4 ranks vs 5 ranks?

I don't have any concrete evidence, but I seem to remember that sweeping with only 4 ranks had an unacceptably high rate of failure, given that failure resulted in wasted stamina and 5 seconds of RT incurred for nothing.

- Cloakhe

It's largely level-based. The more you uphunt, the higher the ranks you'll need. 3 ranks is more or less successful against like-level creatures. If the creature's trained in CM or that particular skill, though, you're going to have a hell of a time either way.

[zhelas]

This might be close to what Hecates was asking except I put the Cman points into PF instead of dodge.

Sitting at 55 trains,and now in Sunfist my archer ranger is about 1.5x in PF. To do this, I pretty much had to shelf cmans for the moment. This may be a mistake and if so a fix skills can fix that soon.

Should I be cutting back on some of the other skills like Survival and First Aid and start concentrating on my Cmans?

I know folks might say hiding and stalking is a waste. However it is at times quiet helpful when you need to solo and kill about 16 grimswarm in a warcamp.

Any advice will be welcomed.

(at level 55), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 170 70
Ranged Weapons.....................| 220 120
Ambush.............................| 156 56
Physical Fitness...................| 187 87
Dodging............................| 156 56
Arcane Symbols.....................| 40 8
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 156 56
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Survival...........................| 156 56
Stalking and Hiding................| 212 112
Perception.........................| 212 112
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30
First Aid..........................| 156 56

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 15

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 40

[Stunseed]

What's the % difference in success rate for 4 ranks vs 5 ranks?

I don't have any concrete evidence, but I seem to remember that sweeping with only 4 ranks had an unacceptably high rate of failure, given that failure resulted in wasted stamina and 5 seconds of RT incurred for nothing.

- Cloakhe

I never actually used sweep, ever. I never saw it as something Stunseed would do, being such a big mofo of a person. I used it for the defense, mainly. Only in Nelemar do I use sweep, and I only use it on sirens.

I'm also a BIG advocate of an open cman list at staggered costs. I believe some cmans should be warrior/rogue only as is their strength of being a square, but some of them make more sense having SKILL requirements.

1x in polearms = 2 ranks of charge
2x in brawling unlocks haymaker.
2x in a weapon style should give wspec for that class.
2x in shield should allow you shield charge, 2x shield/weapon class should allow sunder shield.

Stuff like that.

[droit]

As far as % per rank, I've heard it said each rank gives you about +10 to your CM roll (can't remember whether that was in a defensive or offensive context, though I suspect its both). It's something I've never tested, but I plan to soon.

[danielsh]

It's something I've never tested, but I plan to soon.

I'd be happy to pitch in with the test. Sunfist provides a great way to nail down the relative level of the critter via prestige gained for the kill.

- Cloakhe

[droit]

meh. I'll just find another capped character, dirtkick him, learn a rank, dirtkick again, learn a rank, etc etc. Maybe i'll do it with the target in offensive and defensive each time. That should work.

[Originate]

were the same level Hecates, and I only have 5ranks of cm,but single dodge. I pumped my summoning lore instead. I have not had any trouble uphunting.But I'm going for more of a magical build where as you said your going for more physical.

[Hecates]

ya ive been magical upto this point, now i have to get physical, im almost down to 1x spells, but pumping dodge, armor, and PT...i really can use the CMAN points else where, but i think im gona have to work it in for my 75 ranks.

[ceran]

As an ambushing OHE ranger I look kinda like this at 91 trains. Sweep I usually only use when I help a friend hunt. Feint I used a lot in the mino labyrinth. As others have said I am only at about .75x dodge, went a little over 1.5x cman and 1.25 PF.


Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Movement cmovement 2
Shadow Mastery smastery 5
Disarm Weapon disarm 4
Sweep sweep 4
Feint feint 3

[graysun]

Your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks

Shadow Mastery smastery 5
Disarm Weapon disarm 4

Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 8

--------------------------------------

Any opinions as to whether 3 ranks of sweep would be more helpful than the 5th rank of disarm?

Will mostly be in the rift, bowels, and OTF for a few more levels. Not sure when Nelemar will start to be possible. I don't plan on going too far over 1x in CM for some time yet.

[Danical]

As a ranged user, I enjoy dirtkick because it lowers the block and evade chance of the target, so there's less chance of my bolts deflecting off into the ionosphere when going against shield users. I don't use it constantly, but I do use it on critters that are peskily good at blocking or evading.

Yes. Peskily.

Other perks of Dirtkick that I enjoy:

- It takes very little stamina to execute.
- It only takes 3 seconds to execute.
- It puts the target into roundtime, sometimes even on failures.
- There's a chance it will stun the target. Not necessary or consistent, but fun.
- You can do it just as effectively from a defensive stance.
- It lowers target AS, which is handy against critters that can normally only just barely nick you but still stun you into the next millennium with a flare (or outright kill you with a particularly crit-tastic flare).
- It lowers target perception if you need to slip into hiding.
- It's very satisfying to kick a clod of mud into the eyes of people that are annoying you.

Dirtkick is the only maneuver I've never considered getting rid of for something else.

Dirtkick is really fucking awesome. Bolded what I think is the best part about it.

[droit]

Disarm isn't a necessary skill in the Rift or Bowels. It's useful in OTF, but you'll probably be using mediocre weapons there anyway because of corpse looting, so disarm immunity isn't that crucial. The 5th rank of disarm is pretty important for Nelemar, though.

[Danical]

Oh, I forgot to mention, dirtkick doesn't work against non-corp :(

[graysun]

The 5th rank of disarm is pretty important for Nelemar, though.
I am only carrying my nicest weapons when I know folks are around to rescue, or in warcamps - which I haven't done yet.

Maybe I'll shoot for 5 ranks in Shadow Mastery and Disarm, and 3 in Sweep (~110 CM ranks?) if that would be enough at 100th to at least not be swept every time.

[Stunseed]

I have 134 ranks of CM and 4 ranks of sweep and I think it's less than 10% chance short of an open roll.

[droit]

I think of it like this: disarm is the only CMAN that can cost you tens of millions of silver. Anything else, you're facing some death's sting at worst.

[AKOE!]

I'm thinking of getting 5 ranks in disarm and feint to take advantage of having a open hand. I already have 4 ranks of sweep which seems to work well.

[Morph]

If you master disarm is it impossible to be disarmed in nelemar? Or just less likely?

[Stunseed]

It's always possible on an open roll.

[droit]

There's always the danger of an open roll. That being said, I can't be disarmed in Nelemar without an open roll.