Smite

[walkinthrurain]

What effects the DF of successful wards more: warding margin or lore ranks?

[Fallen]

I don't think the DF goes up if you ward a creature more or less, it just generates more damage.

I see it like:

Endroll of 101 X Smite's DF

or

Endroll of 303 X Smite's DF

A higher endroll results in more damage, but doesn't effect the DF (is that even the right term for a warding spell?) of the spell.

[walkinthrurain]

Damage is what I"m looking for. I guess I used the wrong word. Is it worth dropping a few ranks of lore for another spell is really what I'm asking.

[Fallen]

Damage is what I"m looking for. I guess I used the wrong word. Is it worth dropping a few ranks of lore for another spell is really what I'm asking.

Well, I think that in its current state it would be worth picking up a few ranks of lore because there is no mana costs attributed to the infusion of mana. I can't tell you the rates at which you infuse mana, or even what the chance of doing so is based upon. My guess is either a flat % chance or perhaps an increasing chance based on the number of ranks you have.

More CS will aid ALL of your spells, including Smite, while Religion will just aid a few spells in tertiary ways.

Where are you in your spell training? Are you over 2x spells? Post your lore/spell training.

[walkinthrurain]

(at level 19), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Shield Use.........................| 93 21
Edged Weapons......................| 10 2 (<<< still migrating)
Physical Fitness...................| 93 21
Magic Item Use.....................| 93 21
Spell Aiming.......................| 128 34
Harness Power......................| 136 38
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 78 17
Perception.........................| 20 4
Climbing...........................| 40 8
Swimming...........................| 15 3

Spell Lists
Major Spirit.......................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 7

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 22

[Fallen]

It looks like Religion aids with damage output to Fervent Reproach (312), and Divine Wrath (317) as well. It is your main damage boost lore, so any investment into it will be worthwhile. As you're already over 2x in spells it may be worth your while to step up your lore training to 1x. I wouldn't go OVER 1x, though, as the costs wouldn't be worth the benefit.

Are you having any problems significantly warding your targets?

[Rathain]

Overall, CS is pretty much the main determinant of outcome. Religion lore (kind of surprising considered the spell documentation) plays very little role with 312 and 317 at higher endrolls. A few people played around with 150 ranks of religion lore during the test server and found very little effect. It might play a role with much lower endrolls for 317. With 312 - 312 is extremely weak with lower endrolls regardless of the religion lore.

In terms of DF - I have no idea. But Oscuro did mention this on more than one occasion, that the crit potential of 302 and 317 increase when the opponent is prone. It definitely makes web very useful when used in tandem and makes 302 invaluable.

[mrjrd222]

I'm pretty sure Religion lore only helps the minimum damage 317 can do, so I feel it's aimed more at helping the chance of a death crit on lower endrolls.

[Rathain]

I'm pretty sure Religion lore only helps the minimum damage 317 can do, so I feel it's aimed more at helping the chance of a death crit on lower endrolls.

Another thing we found - it had no affect on the plasma or subsequent crits. No greater frequency of death criticals was found from a few hundred casts.
Religion lore only had a minor effect on bolstering the concussion damage, with no effect to criticals.

[Durgrimst]

I vote for dropping religion lores and work on spells/lores for chrisms and not just killing.

[mrjrd222]

I vote for dropping religion lores and work on spells/lores for chrisms and not just killing.

Chrisms are nice and all, but I think I made the mistake of learning them too early (late 30's) and spent way too many TP's on lores when I could have had extra spells. I'm finally now recovering from overtraining in lores so much (at 62). From your training it looks like you're going pure casting with a shield (exactly what I've done, except I don't train in shield use) I think the most effective (for hunting) choice would be to stay around 2/3 your level for minor/major spells, and get as many extra Cleric spells as you can.

MnS/MjS give 0.5 CS per spell (and add some DS) until they reach 2/3 your level, then they only give 0.1 CS per spell, and while Cleric spells (from your level till level+20) give 0.75 CS per spell, you don't get the DS boost.

I personally think Shield use is overrated and way too expensive, If you want to go open hand/shield, drop the shield use and train to 1x in brawling. You'll still get DS for using the shield, and you'll get parry DS for an open hand. (also 6/1 vs 12/0 TP's per rank).

That should give you a good amount of extra TP's to train in a spell or three.

[Nitergen]

MnS/MjS give 0.5 CS per spell (and add some DS) until they reach 2/3 your level, then they only give 0.1 CS per spell, and while Cleric spells (from your level till level+20) give 0.75 CS per spell, you don't get the DS boost.


Is that for 100% certain on .5 MnS/MjS? I was doing trial and error on goal stuff this past month or two and I could always squeeze 2-3 more CS by getting a little less on MnS/MjS.

[mrjrd222]

MnS/MjS give 0.5 CS per spell (and add some DS) until they reach 2/3 your level, then they only give 0.1 CS per spell, and while Cleric spells (from your level till level+20) give 0.75 CS per spell, you don't get the DS boost.


Is that for 100% certain on .5 MnS/MjS? I was doing trial and error on goal stuff this past month or two and I could always squeeze 2-3 more CS by getting a little less on MnS/MjS.

Hmm, you're right, I just looked it up and it's .3333 instead of .5

So unless you really need the DS, more cleric spell ranks is the way to go for extra CS untill you get to +61 in your level, (you get .75 till +20, then .5 till +60, then .25 till 100 and .125 after 100 if you're crazy enough to go that far)

Funny enough, it changes my plans... Now that I have 40 MnS and 40 MjS I think I can concentrate on just Cleric ranks for a bigger boost in CS, thanks for making me check that!!

[Ryvicke]

To the OP:

You might want to check out some of the posts that Rathboner has thrown up under the 'cleric spells' folder on the officials. He seems to be doing quite a bit of testing on smite/bane recently although his conclusions (in some posts) are pretty vague, in some others he seems to have figured out what the hidden warding bonuses are for open hands/stances. In short, I believe he's concluded that smite has a DF of 0.6, bane has a DF of 0.5 and that Religion lore boosts a random concussion addition to the first damage damage phase of both.

I think he's having trouble nailing down exactly what contributes to the crit (second phase) damage.

I don't have any personal research, but I'd say under current (free infusion) mechanics, get to 25 religion lore ASAP, I've definitely seen a boost.

[walkinthrurain]

Is this normal??? I can kill them in one or two shots of 306...


Abbey, Ossuary]
The staircase narrows to a claustrophobic tunnel of greyish, fitted stone. Sputtering torches throw dim, flickering light down the narrow corridor, giving a sense of life to the old slate flooring. The dust-filled air is stale and heavy, smelling of rotting cloth and long-dry bone.
Obvious exits: south
Zoom: All moves complete.
Reached destination.
Goto complete.
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>open kn
You open a flaxen grosgrain knapsack.
>
An arch wight suddenly bursts from the ground!
>incant 302
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Smite spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight.
A scintillating, blue-white aura encompasses an arch wight.
CS: +112 - TD: +63 + CvA: +25 + d100: +8 == +82
Warded off!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 302
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Smite spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight.
A scintillating, blue-white aura encompasses an arch wight.
CS: +112 - TD: +63 + CvA: +25 + d100: +49 == +123
Warding failed!
Prismatic shards of blue-white energy shatter against an arch wight, inflicting moderate wounds.
The arch wight is hit for 14 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the arch wight's chest.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An arch wight gestures at you!
CS: +126 - TD: +131 + CvA: +14 + d100: +72 == +81
Warded off!
>incant 302
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Smite spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight.
A scintillating, blue-white aura encompasses an arch wight.
CS: +112 - TD: +63 + CvA: +25 + d100: +69 == +143
Warding failed!
A pinpoint of blue-white energy traces its way along an arch wight's skin, leaving a blackened line in its wake.
The arch wight is hit for 28 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the arch wight's hand.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An arch wight runs south.
>
You feel more refreshed.
>
You feel at full magical power again.
>s
[Abbey, Ossuary]
Odd scraping sounds echo ominously within this intersection, their source unseen. Torches cast dancing shadows upon one wall, their forms writhing across the cracked surface of the wall. You also see an arch wight.
Obvious exits: north, east, south, west
>incant 302
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Smite spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight.
A scintillating, blue-white aura encompasses an arch wight.
CS: +112 - TD: +63 + CvA: +25 + d100: +18 == +92
Warded off!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An arch wight chants an evil incantation.
>incant 302
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Smite spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight.
A scintillating, blue-white aura encompasses an arch wight.
CS: +112 - TD: +63 + CvA: +25 + d100: +36 == +110
Warding failed!
A scintilla of blue-white energy slightly agitates an arch wight.
The arch wight is hit for 9 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the arch wight's stomach leaving painful red streaks.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 306
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Holy Bolt spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight.
You hurl a stream of holy water at an arch wight!
AS: +123 vs DS: +64 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +38 = +137
... and hit for 35 points of damage!
Spray eats through the skin on the hand and dissolves some ligaments!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An arch wight gestures at you!
The ground beneath your feet begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow breaks your neck!
Spell Spirit Barrier (102) ended. [+23PhysAS, -23DS]
The air calms down around you.
Spell Spirit Warding II (107) ended. [-25STD, -25BoltDS]
The deep blue glow leaves you.
You sense that your attunement to the minds of others has ceased.
Spell Spirit Defense (103) ended. [-10DS]
The powerful look leaves you.
Spell Mass Blur (911) ended. [-20Dodging]
You become solid again.
Spell Prayer of Protection (303) ended. [-19DS]
A white glow rushes away from you.
Spell Spirit Warding I (101) ended. [-10STD, -10BoltDS]
The light blue glow leaves you.
Spell Prayer (313) ended. [-20STD]
You feel the protection of your deity's influence fade.
Spell Heroism (215) ended. [-25AS]
The brilliant aura fades away from you.
Spell Spirit Guard (Statue) ended. [-25DS]
A faint silvery glow fades from around you.
Spell Elemental Defense III (414) ended. [-20DS, -15ETD]
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
Spell Bravery (211) ended. [-15AS]
You feel less confident.
Spell Warding Sphere (310) ended. [-20DS, -20TD]
You suddenly feel less protected.
Your sense of faith and conviction wanes.
Spell Spirit Shield (202) ended. [-14DS]
The dim aura fades from around you.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

You mentally give a sigh of relief as you remember that the Goddess Lorminstra owes you a favor.

...departing in 14 mins...
The ground then quickly cools.
An arch wight raises its arms in triumph and lets loose with a bone-chilling howl of victory.
>
The Funda disk disintegrates, dropping everything on the ground.
>
An arch wight runs west.

[Fallen]

>>>incant 302
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Smite spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an arch wight. >>

Part of the problem is you are not CHANNELING the spell. There is a flag you can set where it changes incant to channel spells instead of casting them. Channeling spells gives you 3 seconds of hart RT as opposed to soft RT, but increases the damage the spell will do. Being in a more offensive stance also helps to increase the damage, and finally, having one, if not BOTH hands empty increases the damage further.

So, for max damage from 302:

Stance Offensive
Both Hands Empty
prep 302, CHANNEL at target

Obviously you can scale it back and just have one hand free or be in an advanced/forward stance and get a moderately improved strike.

[Rathain]

(at level 19), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Shield Use.........................| 93 21
Edged Weapons......................| 10 2 (<<< still migrating)
Physical Fitness...................| 93 21
Magic Item Use.....................| 93 21
Spell Aiming.......................| 128 34
Harness Power......................| 136 38
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 78 17
Perception.........................| 20 4
Climbing...........................| 40 8
Swimming...........................| 15 3

Spell Lists
Major Spirit.......................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 7

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 22


Your CS has too great a % for missing because your training plan is spread in a bit of everything. If you want to survive more hunts, do the following:

Cleric spells : raise to 52
minor spirit : drop to 7
maj spirit: drop to 1

drop spell aiming completely
drop harness power to 19 ranks
drop spirit mana control to 19 ranks
drop shield ranks to 1 rank
drop magic item use to 15 ranks
drop perception to 0
drop edged weapons

This will increase your CS by 15 points and help alleviate the large warding margin failure you're seeing.

Use a cheap vultite shield, cheap 4x double leather, use a quartz orb and small statue whenever possible, and channel in stance offensive (don't just cast). If you see a wight prep a spell, book it out of there. Hunt smart, and you'll be fine.

[Fallen]

Your CS has too great a % for missing because your training plan is spread in a bit of everything. If you want to survive more hunts, do the following:

Cleric spells : raise to 52
minor spirit : drop to 7
maj spirit: drop to 1

drop spell aiming completely
drop harness power to 19 ranks
drop spirit mana control to 19 ranks
drop shield ranks to 1 rank
drop magic item use to 15 ranks
drop perception to 0
drop edged weapons

This will increase your CS by 15 points and help alleviate the large warding margin failure you're seeing.

Use a cheap vultite shield, cheap 4x double leather, use a quartz orb and small statue whenever possible, and channel in stance offensive (don't just cast). If you see a wight prep a spell, book it out of there. Hunt smart, and you'll be fine.

Cleric spells : raise to 52

Isn't there diminishing returns after 20 spells above your level? Wouldn't it be better to go 39 ranks in Cleric, then split the rest amongst the circles which would give him the most utility?

[Rathain]

Personally, I feel 204/207/211/213 aren't going to help as much as cranking CS at that level in terms of survival. Even going after +20 spell ranks above character level, you'll be seeing +.5CS/rank rounded up, which beats out +1/3rd of a point up to 2/3 of level. It's just personal preference from my experience at that level. I'm sure others will feel differently.

[Fallen]

Personally, I feel 204/207/211/213 aren't going to help as much as cranking CS at that level in terms of survival. Even going after +20 spell ranks above character level, you'll be seeing +.5CS/rank rounded up, which beats out +1/3rd of a point up to 2/3 of level. It's just personal preference from my experience at that level. I'm sure others will feel differently.

200's circle might suck, but the 100's circle has some nice defensive stuff. Either way, like you said. Personal preference.

[mrjrd222]

drop shield ranks to 1 rank

Why does everyone think you need 1 rank? I've had 0 for 62 levels, I've ALWAYS had the ability to outright block with my shield, and I get the bonus for holding it just like anyone else. Waste of 12 PTP imo.

But his % chance to hit a wight isn't that bad, 75% or so is fine at that level but the biggest problem is not channeling. You can get decent damage/crits with those exact endrolls you got if you were channeling in offensive with an empty hand/shield instead of just casting. If you like using INCANT... SET CHANNELINCANT ON is your friend.

I agree with running if you see them prepare a spell, it's like Shan Rangers... you just don't want to see them cast. Run far away for at least 2 minutes, try to find another one while he forgets that spell he prepared.

[Rathain]

I'd see a 25% warding failure as the major problem - channeling being the minor. You can channel till the cows come home. But if you don't ward, you'll be waiting for 3 seconds having effectively done nothing. Even if he channeled in those logs, he would have missed twice anyhow.

From his log, you can see what a 25% warding margin failure will do - you end up dead. Same happens if you choose to hunt any creatures with maneuver roll based attacks - be it fire mages, combatants, storm griffins, or war griffins.

1 rank of shield and brawling, I believe was the standard. 1 rank of brawling to activate brawling DS and 1 rank of DS to garner the bonus of using a shield (the 20 DS adder and not for blocking). I always believed that was how it worked, but I never actually tested it - could be wrong.

[mrjrd222]

You're a jerk for making me have to test this! I happen to have enough TP's lying around and enough time to un-train that 1 rank before I need the extra TP's anyway. I'll post what I find out.

[mrjrd222]

No weapon, No shield, 50 ranks of Brawling, 0 ranks of Shield Use, Stance OFFENSIVE
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
AS: +56 vs DS: +202 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +53 = -73
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

No weapon, No shield, 50 ranks of Brawling, 0 ranks of Shield Use, Stance DEFENSIVE
JR>att ceno
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
AS: +56 vs DS: +289 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +93 = -120
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Ceno easily slides a spiked black vultite warshield off his shoulder, gripping it in one hand.
No weapon, 7x medium shield, 50 ranks of Brawling, 0 ranks of Shield Use, STANCE OFFENSIVE
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
AS: +56 vs DS: +256 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +12 = -168
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

No weapon, 7x medium shield, 50 ranks of Brawling, 0 ranks of Shield Use, STANCE DEFENSIVE
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
AS: +56 vs DS: +345 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +30 = -239
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Just proving I can block without any ranks of shield use
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
Amazingly, Ceno manages to block the attack with his warshield!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Here's the same order (Just the two WITH shield), after 1 rank of shield use:

Ceno easily slides a spiked black vultite warshield off his shoulder, gripping it in one hand.
JR>att ceno
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
AS: +56 vs DS: +256 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +29 = -151
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
JR>att ceno
You swing a closed fist at Ceno!
AS: +56 vs DS: +345 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +80 = -189
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Basically, I get +54 DS in offensive just for carrying a +35 shield, that's the +20, +35, then -1 likely from the size of the shield, and the fact that 0 ranks (or 1 rank) of Shield Use is not enough to remove the size penalty.

P.S.
Shield Use.........................| 0 0.999 0 14 hours, 9 minutes

I suggest everyone with 1 rank of shield use does the same.

[Fallen]

So you guys with runestaves pick up 1 rank of brawling and carry a shield for a bit of extra DS if you need it?

[walkinthrurain]

This is really off topic, but now that you have helped me re-engineer my character into a pretty nasty caster:

Any idea what the benefits are to training SMC past 24 ranks? do people do this? Where should I dump extra TPs? Always into spells? Are a few ranks of blessing lores really handy at lvl 20?

[Fallen]

This is really off topic, but now that you have helped me re-engineer my character into a pretty nasty caster:

Any idea what the benefits are to training SMC past 24 ranks? do people do this? Where should I dump extra TPs? Always into spells? Are a few ranks of blessing lores really handy at lvl 20?

Spiritual Mana Control will factor into the base function of spells from time to time, and it will also increase the mana returns you receive per pulse. The formula for that is for every 10 ranks you have in Mana control you will receive +1 per pulse. I think that varies from off-node to on-node.

Give me a sec and I will pull up the specific spells SMC influences for a cleric.

[Fallen]

119 Spiritual Mana Control - 2. Cause a magical effect in force on the target to be canceled. The mana cost for this version of the spell can be reduced by one point for every 75 skill bonus in the Spiritual Mana Control (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#manashare) skill.

130 Spirit Fog - The caster's Constitution (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp#constitution) bonus and Physical Fitness (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#physicaltraining) training determines the duration (number of cycles) of the nausea. Spirit Mana Control (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#manashare) can reduce the severity of the sickness. And Spiritual Lore, Spirit Summoning (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#spirlore) decreases the random range of the landing location.

208 Living Rune - However, training in Spirit Mana Control (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#manashare) will decrease the required mana to cast a stolen spell at the rate of 1% per 2 ranks. The resultant mana cost is rounded up, with a minimum cost of 1.

220 Major Sanctuary - Successful creation of a Major Sanctuary is determined by level, Major Spiritual (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=4) spell ranks, Wisdom (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp#wisdom) bonus and Spiritual Mana Control (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#manashare).

240 Spirit Slayer - The Casting Strength (CS) boost is 25 + seed (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/lores.asp#Summation) 5 Mana Control, Spiritual (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#manashare) ranks.

319 Divine Wrath - Spiritual Mana Control (http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#manashare) (SMC) skill determines three things for this spell. First, it helps bolster the critical applied in the secondary effect. Second, it sets the number of creatures this multi-attack spell can hit in one frame. For example, a Cleric with 102 skill in SMC can hit a maximum of 5 creatures at once. Third, SMC training will help reduce the wait time in between casts.

----
Looks like it is worth it to me to 1x Spiritual Mana Control as a Cleric. Though most of the benefits from the 200's circles, which you just nuked.

[mrjrd222]

So you guys with runestaves pick up 1 rank of brawling and carry a shield for a bit of extra DS if you need it?

I never hunt with a runestaff. Always shield/open hand. More DS in offensive, less in defensive (a lot less) but no chance of being disarmed until something starts with sunder shield or itchy curse.

[Fallen]

I don't think any creatures use sunder shield at the moment. Not even Grimswarm. Maybe bandits from escort tasks or something.

[Rathain]

This is really off topic, but now that you have helped me re-engineer my character into a pretty nasty caster:

Any idea what the benefits are to training SMC past 24 ranks? do people do this? Where should I dump extra TPs? Always into spells? Are a few ranks of blessing lores really handy at lvl 20?

A few blessing lore ranks won't help you at all. 1x in lores if you want to - it's a personal choice. But a few ranks of blessing lore provides no tangible benefit.

I'd say dial up the training to 3x spells, and then slowly scale back after you have all the utility/defensive spells you want. But at 20, your options are very limited. Once you get to 40-70, you'll have more options that will have a real impact on how you choose to play and envision your character.