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View Full Version : Redefined Sorcerer Lores and Lore Review Suggestions



Fallen
02-23-2009, 12:33 PM
NOTE: As with the DoT thread, if you have no interest in sorcerer lores or sorcerer spell revisions I advise not bothing to read this thread.

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Sorcerers lores are not as type-cast as they first might seem. Expanding upon the definition of each lore’s sphere of influence allows us to better apply the skills to our own circle. Here is a revised take on the two lores, and the general areas of use for each type.

Sorcerer Lore: Necromancy - Control over death and decay imparts knowledge of how to preserve flesh, as well as the processes involved in destroying it. Functions of magic can also be subjected to the ravages of virulent influences. Use of this lore should increase damage thresholds and direct combat function.

Sorcerer Lore: Demonology - This lore determines not only our control of extra-dimensional creatures, but the very nature of our own dimension. Alterations and obscurations of our valence, otherwise known as illusions are enhanced by this art. This is our utility lore, which allows us to get more out of the tertiary aspects of our spells.

Using these redefined sorcerer lores one is better able to apply them to augment the spells within the 700’s circle. However, not all spell adaptations must be based upon the addition of lores. Outside factors such as MOC, Mana Control, Spell Aim, etc are all valid means of increasing the base function of spells as well as adding secondary benefits. Working with this goal in mind, let us review the Sorcerer Spell Circle.

Blood Burst (701) – Leave as is.

Mana Disrupt (702) – A formula using both Spiritual and Elemental mana controls adds to the amount of phantom damage this spell deals.

Corrupt Essence (703) – Necromancy lore gives a percent chance that any attempts to prepare a spell while under the effects of Corrupt Essence leads to nerve damage and loss of mana equal to the spell’s cost.

Phase (704) – Leave as is.

Disintegration (705) – Necromancy training allows for a percent chance at an extra damage cycle at a base chance of ranks / 1.5 as well as increased overall damage.

Mind Jolt (706) – Elemental Mana control training at 1x level will allow the sorcerer to inflict rank 1 nerve damage on a 200 endroll or greater. This effect is cumulative.

Eye Spy (707) – A companion spell which augments the spells Nightmare and Evil Eye, training in Demonology affords the spell an extended duration at (Seed chart).

Limb Disruption (708) – Necromancy training at a level of 1x affords the caster an assured limb animation when the endroll is sufficient to completely remove the targeted limb. Penalties or bonuses apply depending on target’s level.

Quake (709) – Training in Demonology increases the likelihood of successful knockdowns.

Maelstrom (710) - Lore-based Benefit - Blessings Lore - Increases difficulty of outside attempts to dispel the Maelstrom.

Lore-based Benefit - Summoning Lore - Creates a chance that target will be unable to flee due to the intensity of the storm around it. Chance of movement hindrance is based off (seed chart)

Skill-based benefit - Spiritual Mana Control - Spiritual mana control will shorten formation of Maelstrom based upon Spiritual mana control bonus divided by X. (Likely a high number, maximizing in results similar to Call Lightning when near 202 ranks of SMC)

Skill-based benefit - Elemental Mana Control - Increases damage done by elemental forces.

Pain Infliction (711) – Leave as is.

Cloak of Shadows (712) – Training in Demonology affords the sorcerer a chance at retributions against melee based bolts and thrown weapons at 75 ranks, and magical bolt attacks at 100 ranks.

Nightmare (713) - Restructuring - The phantom damage to this spell should be removed in order to better justify its status as a Disable over Time spell as opposed to one designed to kill. The method which the spell delivers its effect should be altered so that a target that is already stunned will not be unstunned. The spell in its current form acts to benefit the target at times by breaking it of a previously acquired prolonged status effect. The spell also requires substantial messaging updates to better reflect the diversity and level structure of Elanthia's creatures.

Lore-based Benefit - Demonology - By means of the sorcerer's spell of Eye Spy, sorcerers are able to target multiple creatures in the room with the fear based spell. The number of creatures targeted is determined by (insert seed chart number here). Remote casting of Nightmare through use of Eye Spy is achieved at one hundred ranks of Demonology.

Lore-based Benefit - Necromancy - Sorcerers well trained in Necromancy can fashion a nightmare which strikes fear into the undead by implanting imagery of holy spirits which assail their targets. A minimum of half the level of necromancy ranks of the target undead is required for the spell to have a chance of success. If the amount of Necromancy ranks exceeds that of the targeted undead's level, successful warding results in automatic activation of status effect.

Tertiary benefits - A demon archetype is released which provides the spell with one additional target, as well as an amplifying effect of the Nightmare effect itself.

Scroll Infusion (714) – Leave as is.

Curse (715) - Restructuring - The stance based effects of curse would be restructured as followed

Offensive - Clumsy - Target falls down (no change)
Advanced - Unlucky - Target faces increased chance to fumble spells, attacks, and CMANs.
Forward - Weakness - Target suffers from loss of AS and CMAN/Critter maneuver strength.
Neutral - Itchy - Target is given bouts of RT and drops items as well as general DS loss. (no change)
Guarded - Daunted - Target suffers TD penalty (no change)
Defensive - Susceptibility - Target becomes increasingly vulnerable to damage types (Elemental and Physical)

Lore-based Benefit - Demonology - Allows sorcerers to modify their curses so that a creature can be afflicted with multiple forms of the spell at one time. The amount of curses a sorcerer can summon is based upon (seed chart). NOTE: It is not possible to stack Stance Guarded TD penalty effects.

Lore-based Benefit - Necromancy - Necromancy training increases the effects of each status ailment depending on which stance is used.

Evil Eye (717) – Restructuring – Warding rolls just below an outright kill will induce a state of Sheer Fear amongst the living. The presence of the sorcerer’s Eye via the Eye Spy spell will hinder attempts at shaking the effect.

Lore-based Benefit - Demonology – Provides a TD pushdown on the most costly seed chart available. Further, Demonology lessens the penalty for remote cast of the spell via that same seed chart.

Lore-based Benefit – Necromancy – Undead cannot be killed via evil eye, but instead have a chance to be driven into a Frenzied state. Chance to produce a frenzied state is achieved at having half the undead’s level in Necromancy lore. If ranks of lore is greater than the Undead’s level the chance of frenzy upon successful warding is 100%

Torment (718) – Leave as is.

Dark Catalyst (719) – Leave as is.

Implosion (720) - Restructuring - Cost reduction for focused version of implosion removed.

Skill-based benefit - Spiritual/Elemental Mana Control - Increases the speed between damage cycles of Open Form implosion.

Lore-based Benefit - Air Lore - Gives a percent chance that a portion of the corpse will remain to be searched upon vaporization.

Lore-based benefit - Blessings lore - Increases difficulty of outside attempts to dispel Open Implosion.

Tertiary benefit - Casting of Open Implosion disperses any cloud based spell with every damage cycle.

Minor Summoning (725) – Demonology affords the caster a higher benefit to spell duration than it does currently. It also adds significantly to the duration of illusions of minor demons. Mana capacity, coin holding capacity, chances for a successful guard attempt against thievery are all greatly increased over the current level of returns. Wait times between both successful and unsuccessful summoning attempts are reduced. Message and item delivery speeds are increased.

Animate Dead (730) – Restructuring – MAL revisions, the ability to refresh animate duration, the ability to heal your animate via alchemy.

Lore-based Benefit - Necromancy training’s influence upon duration is increased. BCS level creatures are granted levels based on the highest seed chart, capped at the top of their normal gen range with penalties applying if the creature is above the caster in levels.

Planar Shift (740) – Leave as is.

Danical
02-23-2009, 02:06 PM
I like a lot of them, but you don't want to do anything to DC?

Fallen
02-23-2009, 02:10 PM
No. That spell is quite balanced as it is. It isn't DC's fault that sorcerers don't have a warding based spell to effectively kill non-magical creatures. DC does what it is supposed to do and already has lore based tie-ins. People don't like the Elemental lore tie-ins but they're fitting. The Mana Controls already effect the spell, so they wouldn't be appropriate damage modifiers either.

Danical
02-23-2009, 02:15 PM
702 and 705 don't kill non-magical creatures?

BigWorm
02-23-2009, 02:20 PM
702 and 705 don't kill non-magical creatures?

This is where he uses the plink word.

Danical
02-23-2009, 02:23 PM
I would make the "phantom" damage to 702 visible FFS. Just have it be generic damage like all the other spells and then have the crit cycle after it.

Also, I thought 705 did upwards of 150 total damage with a pretty rockin' crit if you had a decent endroll. HAVE I BEEN LIED TO?!?!

Mtenda
02-23-2009, 02:30 PM
Also, I thought 705 did upwards of 150 total damage with a pretty rockin' crit if you had a decent endroll.

Not in my experience in the temple with a 501 CS.

Fallen
02-23-2009, 02:31 PM
I would make the "phantom" damage to 702 visible FFS. Just have it be generic damage like all the other spells and then have the crit cycle after it.

Also, I thought 705 did upwards of 150 total damage with a pretty rockin' crit if you had a decent endroll. HAVE I BEEN LIED TO?!?!

It can, but certainly no more than any other spells which are its acquivalent. Further, due to the inability to power the spell it fails to grow with the sorcerer later in levels, leaving it far behind its warding based counterparts. I think a better use of Disintegrate and Necromancy would be a crit weighting modifier. Rather than doing more damage, it increases the severity of the wound itself.

Danical
02-23-2009, 02:36 PM
I'd like to see 705 have a chance of instant death based on Necro lore like Bone Shatter, Immolation, etc. At Cap, something like 7.5% at 1x Necro lore and 15% at 2x Necro lore.

I'd also like to see, as you mentioned, the crit rank increased by Necro lore.

TheWitch
02-23-2009, 02:38 PM
705 used to do amazing damage.

And I'll use the word - now it plinks.

It can even plink with a 60 level margin gap between the caster and the target because as Evarin said, there is no way to power it up. Open handed channeling from offensive, still plinks. I was just plinking on janissaries five minutes ago, CS 523 vs. TD 353. End rolls well over 200, plink. Plink. Plink.

And E, I have to read that a couple more times. Short attention span FTL.

Fallen
02-23-2009, 02:40 PM
I'd like to see 705 have a chance of instant death based on Necro lore like Bone Shatter, Immolation, etc. At Cap, something like 7.5% at 1x Necro lore and 15% at 2x Necro lore.

I'd also like to see, as you mentioned, the crit rank increased by Necro lore.

Eh, I was trying to shy away from insta-death spells. That is the province of empaths and clerics. I rather the added power from our lores increase the damage done. I don't don't mind bleeding foes to death as so long as we can do it extremely well.

If I want insta-kills I will cast Implosion or DC.

Fallen
02-23-2009, 02:42 PM
And E, I have to read that a couple more times. Short attention span FTL.

I know. That and the DoT posts were monsters. They were just some ideas kicking around in my head. I do think that the way I defined lores works well with our spell list. Between the mana controls, Demonology, and Necromancy we are fairly well covered.

Danical
02-23-2009, 02:43 PM
You can have both crit increase and insta-kill.

Wait, so Sorcerers, the masters of destruction and mayhem casting a spell named disintegrate shouldn't have a chance to insta-kill a target?

I also think clerics and empaths have no business having a chance to insta-kill but w/e.

Fallen
02-23-2009, 02:46 PM
You can have both crit increase and insta-kill.

Wait, so Sorcerers, the masters of destruction and mayhem casting a spell named disintegrate shouldn't have a chance to insta-kill a target?

I also think clerics and empaths have no business having a chance to insta-kill but w/e.

Eh, I am not getting into that again. Last thing I need is empaths and the like shrieking at me.

The removal of a lore or skill based chance for insta-kills grants us much more leeway in doing massive amounts of damage at all times. Something good I get all the time is better than something great I get some of the time.

Danical
02-23-2009, 02:53 PM
Well I suggest insta-kills because creatures can't do it against players so if you power the spell, the creature version won't be a bitch.

However, creatures do have an assload of lore, for whatever reason, which can really fuck your day up if you are warded by one.

mrjrd222
02-23-2009, 02:56 PM
Maelstrom (710) - Lore-based Benefit - Blessings Lore - Increases difficulty of outside attempts to dispel the Maelstrom.

Skill-based benefit - Spiritual Mana Control - Spiritual mana control will shorten formation of Maelstrom based upon Spiritual mana control bonus divided by X. (Likely a high number, maximizing in results similar to Call Lightning when near 202 ranks of SMC)


I also think this spell needs something that will make it show up quicker (I think any spell similar to it should have that ability) but making it SMC is a bit too easy. If anything I think it would be Summoning lore, just like 125. But I do like the 202 max, instead of the 70 max from Call Lightning, at least that makes it a bit harder to gain the maximum benefit in a skill that every Sorcerer would be training in anyway (not always the case with Summoning lore).

TheWitch
02-23-2009, 02:59 PM
E, I cannot get behind blessing lore in our spells.

If anything, I think maelstrom begs for an elemental lore tie-in, with an attunement bonus of some sort. If DC is stuck with them, we may as well have them benefit something else.

So wherever blessing lore is, I disagree.

droit
02-23-2009, 03:12 PM
However, creatures do have an assload of lore, for whatever reason, which can really fuck your day up if you are warded by one.

What makes you think that? It's been stated repeatedly by staff that creatures do not use lores per say. I think that certain lore benefits (like the call wind vorteces) have been coded in, but those are a result of an arbitrary addition by the creature designer, not as a result of lore training. For instance, creature bolt spells do not gain DF bonuses from lore.

Fallen
02-23-2009, 03:20 PM
I also think this spell needs something that will make it show up quicker (I think any spell similar to it should have that ability) but making it SMC is a bit too easy. If anything I think it would be Summoning lore, just like 125. But I do like the 202 max, instead of the 70 max from Call Lightning, at least that makes it a bit harder to gain the maximum benefit in a skill that every Sorcerer would be training in anyway (not always the case with Summoning lore).

The costs for going over 1x in a Mana control nearly as much as a lore. This helps make it a worthwhile balancing tool when using Mana controls as a psuedo-lore. 1x is just about baseline. You wont see much improvement. 2x+ is where the good stuff happens.

Summoning lore was my first thought, but sorcerers bitch whenever you attach non-sorcerer lores to sorcerer spells. I personally don't have a problem training outside of our own lores. The costs are reasonable and as highbreds I think it appropriate.

I see Elemental lores for the damage aspect more than I do the summoning aspect, but Elemental mana control is just as appropriate IMO.

Numbers
02-23-2009, 04:37 PM
What killed the Sorcerer profession for me was its move away from instant and brutal kills to bullshit DoT and plinking kills.

Back in the day, all you needed was MD and DC, and we had the disabling spells in case numbers became overwhelming.

Now it's just bullshit plinking that's boring as fuck. The only insta-kill spell we have is FI, which is heavily age based, and more often than not will also suck up your treasure.

Just fucking rollback the profession to 8 years ago. If that means getting rid of all the "new" spells, so be it.

diethx
02-23-2009, 04:48 PM
Just fucking rollback the profession to 8 years ago. If that means getting rid of all the "new" spells, so be it.

I vote for this. Too bad it'll never happen.

TheWitch
02-23-2009, 05:18 PM
Haven't you heard? Empaths are the new one-shot kill masters.

/sarcasm

I played then too, and it was boring. Yes, we killed in one shot. Yawn.
I can definitely agree they took the plinking too freakin far. WAY too far.

DC is insta kill, on the right target.

That said, I would love to see more insta-kill potential in 705 brought back.
Evarin likes the good thing all the time, I want it occasionally mind blowing.

zhelas
02-23-2009, 05:21 PM
I like some of the ideas E that you posted. I don't see why the sorcerers can't be back to the power that they had if one heavily invests in the correct lores. Lore training seems to be the trend, if GS has a trend.

What is the GM's vision for the profession? And no not just a bunch of whiners.

They probably see the Sorcerers as having great disabling spells. And we do. 708 right arm makes over 90% of the creatures harmless. 711 with the right amount of Necro puts creatures into hard RT. 717 as much as i hate it can stun non stunable creatures temporarily. We have others that you have listed.

So the GMs might be saying fine the sorcerer's disable the creatures so they become basically harmless and to slow down thier killing we make them PLINK and PLINK.

Honestly Sorcerer's don't have problems hunting. However it would be nice to be able to fuel our spells with lores.

If they would extend the duration of 730 and allow us to heal our animates, I know some Sorcerer's, including yours truelly would like that as an option instead of plinking. Currently with 98 trains and 100 ranks of necro my Triton Combatant lasts about 40 to 45 min.

As Rhiesia mentioned in many of her posts GS is a war of attrition.

Peace

Numbers
02-23-2009, 07:26 PM
Fuck lores.

Lores give the GMs an excuse to make a spell shitty without them.

Lores were a massive gutting of all professions forced to train in them. They don't make spells more powerful. They make them AS powerful as they were BEFORE lores.

Fuck that shit, screw that noise.

They took fun professions and made them boring.

aesir
02-23-2009, 07:27 PM
I'm a newbie to the game. But is it just me or has the game gone through successive continuous nerfs throughout the past decade, like across the board?

Fallen
02-23-2009, 09:39 PM
We could hunt just fine when it was all just 702 and 719. Viability in hunting was and is not an issue. Being able to hunt has nothing to do with all of our spells being worth casting. That should just as much be a goal for every profession as being viable in the field.

Hell, for CMANs too. A stupid amount of them are RP only.