Elanthian Racism Vs Earthly Racism

[Fallen]

This is a snippet from a conversation taking place on the official boards. Its empitus is the storyline in Ta'Illistim involving an Illistimi noble wanting to take a human female formally as his wife, forever dooming that family to half-breed off-spring. From what I understand he is the sole heir to the family name, so they are in a dillie of a pickle.

ANYWHO, I thought I would post my argument stating that Humans and Elves are NOT the same species just because they can produce non-sterile off-spring. I make other points and observations which are a bit tangental, but that is the crux of the debate. I figured my post might provide a few of you with a several moment's entertainment as you pick it apart. My post is below Velvette's, to whom I was originally responding.

----

No sorry Evarin


I was basing it on how we has humans in the real world base on whether two things are considered to be a separate or same species.My father was Irish my mother Korean, they had me, hence the same species. Hence, I never did understand all the bigotry.

Horses and donkeys can mate but their children are mules and always sterile, hence they are not the same species.If a human and gorilla mates they could not have children, (well scientist could probably manipulate in some way these days but...) hence we are separate species. In Elanthia, a human and elf can mate and have fertile children, hence the same species.

You were the one comparing it to scientist studying gorillas and mating, I only countered with logic. Sorry I should have not brought in real world logic into Elanthia.

Velvette...archer empath extraordinaire!

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Racism as it stands on Earth has no direct correlation between that experienced in Elanthia. A black human and a white human are still seen as the same race. No one bothers to differentiate between slight differences in color or facial characteristics. At least, Ive never encountered this aspect of roleplay IG, and I highly doubt a group of white humans organizing hate groups against a group of black/brown/red humans would even be remotely tolerated by GMs.

Elanthia has truly different races. A human is NOT the same species as an Elf. A Krolvin is NOT the same species as a human. That they can mate and produce viable off-spring lends no justification to the argument that they are the same species. It just is a facet of Elanthian humanity that their genetic material is so simplistic it can be spliced with just about anything.

We are "essentially" the same as monkeys, that doesn't make them the same species. Heck, even if we earthly humans could pop out half-chimps that wouldn't make them anymore the same species as we. Krolvin and chimps aren't TOO terribly far off from each other. Chimps can be taught to communicate in sign language. They have a rudimentary societal order. They have the beginnings of the knowledge to use tools and manipulate their environment in the ways men do. They do not, however, build boats and go raiding. They are about 1-2 steps away from this point.

That is how elves view the lesser races, like chimps, but a few steps up the evolutionary ladder. A ladder which is entirely DIFFERENT from their own. How high, or how low they are on that ladder has no impact on whether or not they are of a like pair. A human and an elf mating should be seen as watered down bestiality. It is a level of abhorrent deviance that should never be judged as anything less than a crime against Elven kind.

- More Evarin than his player speaking, but our point stands

[CrystalTears]

Some of you people analyze some things WAY too much, IMO.

Although I will say that just because elves have disdain for humans, doesn't mean that it qualifies them as not of the same species.

[thefarmer]

Heck, even if we earthly humans could pop out half-chimps that wouldn't make them anymore the same species as we.

This made me laugh.

More on topic:


It is a level of abhorrent deviance that should never be judged as anything less than a crime against humanity.

Why would an elf be concerned with a crime against humanity?

[Fallen]

My point is Elanthia's bigotry should be decribed more as Speciesism than Racism. Members of the same race within Elanthia rarely, if ever practiced indoctrined hatred against one another. Of course, this is taking into account your belief that Dark Elves, Sylvans, and Pure Elves are all different races. Mechanically they certainly are, but some may not view it that way.

IC Exceptions to this rule would be a group of Vaalorian practicing active bigotry against Illistimi elves, which isn't really true. It is more of a cross town rivalry seen in sports than anything to that level. Of course, the Faendryl USED to be pure elves, and as such suffered true racism due to their actions against Despana, but that changed when their entire race was subjected to the taint of magic left by the Chaos Wars.

[Fallen]

More on topic:



Why would an elf be concerned with a crime against humanity?

I had forgot to change that in my X-post, but that is different than what I posted on the officials, which was this, "It is a level of abhorrent deviance that should never be judged as anything less than a crime against Elven kind."

You are quite correct in that "humanity" is the incorrect word for what I was trying to say.

[Fallen]

Some of you people analyze some things WAY too much, IMO.

Although I will say that just because elves have disdain for humans, doesn't mean that it qualifies them as not of the same species.

So you believe Elves and Humans are of the same species? I think we're having confusion as to how you're defining species. Are you saying same species different race?

[CrystalTears]

My point is Elanthia's bigotry should be decribed more as Speciesism than Racism.I disagree. There is nothing wrong in believing that all the [playable] races of Elanthia are different races of the same species.

Sometimes I feel that people consider them different species so that they can get offended when people of different races mate. Frankly, who cares? If it's a crime against their race to be with the other race, let them play out that racism.

This is a roleplaying fantasy game. Why people insist on making real world comparisons is beyond me, because Elanthia does not exist in any frame of any scope to be able to even try to compare.

[Fallen]

Not to confuse anyone, but I changed my original X-post to the final draft. I had originally posted a rough draft.

[Fallen]

I disagree. There is nothing wrong in believing that all the [playable] races of Elanthia are different races of the same species.

Sometimes I feel that people consider them different species so that they can get offended when people of different races mate. Frankly, who cares? If it's a crime against their race to be with the other race, let them play out that racism.

This is a roleplaying fantasy game. Why people insist on making real world comparisons is beyond me, because Elanthia does not exist in any frame of any scope to be able to even try to compare.

We certainly do disagree. I do not believe Krolvin are the same Species, or even race as ANY other creature in Elanthia, save half-Krol. They most certainly do not have a common ancestry with Elves. The same goes for Halflings, Giantkin, Dwarves, etc. The closest you can come to Racism instead of Speciesism in GS is Elves, Sylvans, and Dark Elves. They have a common ancestry. However, the differences between these races are great enough to still skew any argument against direct comparisons to Earthly racism.

The reason I believe it is important to attempt to draw comparisons between RL racism, and what is experienced in gemstone is to point out how VASTLY different the two are from each other. There is solid ground to stand on when you claim an elf is superior to a human, or a halfling to an elf. They aren't of the same species, they share no common ancestry.

[CrystalTears]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I will never believe in that. It's an excuse to have severe superiority over other races.

[Asha]

Some of you people analyze some things WAY too much, IMO.
. .

[Fallen]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I will never believe in that. It's an excuse to have severe superiority over other races.

Fair enough. Still, it would have been interesting to see the logic and the factual/documentational basis of this opinion explained in detail.

[thefarmer]

Comparing a human to an elf isn't the same as a chimp to a human. The differences in the second far outweigh the differences on the first.

If a human/elf combo can produce a half-elf that isn't sterile, I don't think the difference is that great. Especially since there are combinations that have been stated to not work.

[CrystalTears]

What is Simu's stance? Have they said anything regarding this?

What facts would you want? What facts do you have to prove that elves are a different species than halflings?

[Fallen]

Another purposes in looking at these points of interest in detail is to determine exactly how an elf should view themselves with regards to the other races. Is their racism the same as that practiced here on earth? I think not. Atleast, it shouldn't be. There are very few tangible differences between the differing races of earth. That, and any such characteristic of a race is not identical in EVERY SINGLE member of said race.

That fact is a key difference when determining Racism/Speciesism in Elanthia. ALL ELVES are Dextrous. ALL ELVES are capable of living hundreds of years. ALL ELVES will begin with a lessened sense of discipline. An elf will mechanically ALWAYS be able to achieve a greater ability to do X without outside than a giant. While a Giant will always be able to outperform an elf in a feat of strength at the height of each creature's existence.

[Stanley Burrell]

Why is saying that two species producing sterile offspring racist?

There is only one thing to do:

Unleash your army of Nazi ... Welsh mules you have in your RACIST ZOO, Fallen, and sic them on her for disagreeing with you on some video game content.

Then throw up gangsigns of an urban minority so people can't say you hate black people. Trust me.

[Fallen]

What is Simu's stance? Have they said anything regarding this?

What facts would you want? What facts do you have to prove that elves are a different species than halflings?


The history documentation. They originated from two different sources. That they share common characteristics in no way makes them the same species. We share common characteristics with many different animals on our world. That doesn't make them the same species.

[Fallen]

Why is saying that two species producing sterile offspring racist?

There is only one thing to do:

Unleash your army of Nazi ... Welsh mules you have in your RACIST ZOO, Fallen, and sic them on her for disagreeing with you on some video game content.

Then throw up gangsigns of an urban minority so people can't say you hate black people. Trust me.

I always do, Stanley. I always do.

[CrystalTears]

Fuck it. I'm having an off day, I'll continue to play along.

So are you saying that all elves are a species, and dark elves, elves, and sylvans are races within that species? Or are you saying that they're all different species?

I expect there would need to be different kinds of giantmen, krolvin, halflings and gnomes to be able to say they're each a different species.

Having different gene types (faster, stronger, more dexterous, smarter) doesn't automatically make them different species.

[thefarmer]

That fact is a key difference when determining Racism/Speciesism in Elanthia. ALL ELVES are Dextrous. ALL ELVES are capable of living hundreds of years. ALL ELVES will begin with a lessened sense of discipline. An elf will mechanically ALWAYS be able to achieve a greater ability to do X without outside than a giant. While a Giant will always be able to outperform an elf in a feat of strength at the height of each creature's existence.

Going by that route (using the stat bonuses), a human has a +5 to logic over an elf, while their wisdom is equal at 0. Does that mean the human is smarter/logical and equally wise?

[CrystalTears]

Going by that route (using the stat bonuses), a human has a +5 to logic over an elf, while their wisdom is equal at 0. Does that mean the human is smarter/logical and equally wise?
You just made an elven brain explode somewhere.

[thefarmer]

You just made an elven brain explode somewhere.

:tumble:

[Stanley Burrell]

You just made an elven brain explode somewhere.

..!

http://media.kiiitv.com/images/HateCrimeTN.jpg

[Fallen]

Fuck it. I'm having an off day, I'll continue to play along.

So are you saying that all elves are a species, and dark elves, elves, and sylvans are races within that species? Or are you saying that they're all different species?

I expect there would need to be different kinds of giantmen, krolvin, halflings and gnomes to be able to say they're each a different species.

Having different gene types (faster, stronger, more dexterous, smarter) doesn't automatically make them different species.

I think you and I are defining "Species" differently. I use Species to define a Elf versus a Halfling. I use mechanical differences as the basis for determining different species. Species is the last stop in the method of classifying living creatures.

<<The organization of living things can be seen like a pyramid or tree with seven major levels or categories: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. >>

Now..are Halflings and Elves in the same kingdom? Yep. Phylum, sure. Class? You betcha. Order ... That's about where everything starts to differ.

Family, Genius, and Species on down and all the races are different.

[Fallen]

Going by that route (using the stat bonuses), a human has a +5 to logic over an elf, while their wisdom is equal at 0. Does that mean the human is smarter/logical and equally wise?

Most definitely. However, how does one quantify logic outside of stat bonuses? It isn't as easy as Aura, or Strength. It would be harder to use that argument in an actual debate between species. It is much easier to point out how much longer elves live than humans to highlight their species's superiority.

[thefarmer]

Most definitely. However, how does one quantify logic outside of stat bonuses? It isn't as easy as Aura, or Strength. It would be harder to use that argument in an actual debate between species. It is much easier to point out how much longer elves live than humans to highlight their species's superiority.

I'm not the one that brought in what is essentially stat bonuses to the table..


ALL ELVES are Dextrous. ALL ELVES will begin with a lessened sense of discipline. An elf will mechanically ALWAYS be able to achieve a greater ability to do X without outside than a giant. While a Giant will always be able to outperform an elf in a feat of strength at the height of each creature's existence

I'm just pointing out that using those examples doesn't add much of anything to your argument/discussion/etc.

[Fallen]

I'm not the one that brought in what is essentially stat bonuses to the table..



I'm just pointing out that using those examples doesn't add much of anything to your argument/discussion/etc.

Sure it does. I am not out to prove elven superiority in this debate. I am attempting to prove that the sentient creatures of Elanthia ARE NOT of the same Species. Most are not even close. My point regarding the Stat Bonuses is that they highlight the extreme differences between two species.

Gnome Versus a Giant. There is no way a gnome is going to be able to lift as much as a giant, or carry as much as a giant when you take a sample of the average population from both species.

Dark Elf versus a Dwarf. There is no way a dark elf is going to be able to replenish its spiritual health as fast a dwarf, again when you are taking a sample of the average member of each race.

These hard boundries can be overcome with magic, but when all things are equal, it is the Stat Bonuses, the natural resistances, the age limitations, the height limitations which set them completely apart. These defining characteristics are established when choosing your SPECIES/RACE, thus proving their differences.

[thefarmer]

Sure it does. I am not out to prove elven superiority in this debate. I am attempting to prove that the sentient creatures of Elanthia ARE NOT of the same Species. Most are not even close. My point regarding the Stat Bonuses is that they highlight the extreme differences between two species.



And for the stats that are close? Or even the same?

Does that likewise prove how similar they are? If a greater number are similar would that make them the same species?

[Fallen]

And for the stats that are close? Or even the same?

Does that likewise prove how similar they are? If a greater number are similar would that make them the same species?

A bear is similiar to a tiger in a lot of ways. Lions too. Still not the same species.

[CrystalTears]

And for the stats that are close? Or even the same?

Does that likewise prove how similar they are? If a greater number are similar would that make them the same species?
It would be really easy to assume that stat bonuses are just stereotypes. Just like people state that black people have better dexterity and a bigger PP, or Asian people are smarter and a smaller PP, and white people are just crazier.

[Fallen]

It would be really easy to assume that stat bonuses are just stereotypes. Just like people state that black people have better dexterity and a bigger PP, or Asian people are smarter and a smaller PP, and white people are just crazier.

Certain racial features could certainly be dismissed as such, others could not. White people are crazy, though. And black people are scary.

[CrystalTears]

A bear is similiar to a tiger in a lot of ways. Lions too. Still not the same species.
What? No, they are not. Not in structure, not in genes, not in hair makeup, not in anyway whatsoever, only that they are both mammals.

[StrayRogue]

I'm trying really hard to find what difference racism or "specism" makes.

But at the end of the day we all eventually came from the same substance (unless you're stupid and believe Jesus/Xenu created us). So does it matter, really?

[Fallen]

What? No, they are not. Not in structure, not in genes, not in hair makeup, not in anyway whatsoever, only that they are both mammals.

They both walk on four legs, they are roughly equal in strength.

Gnomes don't look anything like Giantkin. Krolvin don't look like ANYONE else. Your original argument was that they were all the same species. That makes just as little sense.

[CrystalTears]

I'm trying really hard to find what difference racism or "specism" makes.
So that there would be more frowning upon when a Krolvin wishes to mate with an elf.

[thefarmer]

A bear is similiar to a tiger in a lot of ways. Lions too. Still not the same species.

OK, but..


My point regarding the Stat Bonuses is that they highlight the extreme differences between two species.

You can't use stat bonuses to point and say, "Look! They're different!" and ignore the guy in the corner that says "Look! Some are the same!"

[Ausek]

<<The organization of living things can be seen like a pyramid or tree with seven major levels or categories: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. >>

Now..are Halflings and Elves in the same kingdom? Yep. Phylum, sure. Class? You betcha. Order ... That's about where everything starts to differ.

Family, Genius, and Species on down and all the races are different.

If I might expand this a little to help clear any confusion that might remain...a sample order can be given thus:

Kingdom: Animal - Members of this Kingdom need to feed on organic matter, as opposed to plants and such which create energy using light and energy.)

Phylum: Chordate (or Vertebrate) - Members of this phylum share a backbone with a hollow nerve chord.

Class: Mammal - Sharing the ability to feed your offspring with milk and having a body covering, which includes fur.

Order: Primate - Sharing with all other members of this group of mammals, a thumb that can be opposed to the other digits, binocular vision and various more broadly defined characteristics (including high intelligence, relatively long maturation period for the young, dental similarities, tendency for complex social organization)

Now this is where the races of Elanthia begin to differ. Elves, for instance, would have a similar Family...

Family: Eflidae (heh) - Members of this Family are notably more dextrous, are capable of living hundreds of years, and are born with a lessened sense of discipline.

Genus: Elf - Sharing a common language, Elven, similar societal formations, types and patterns of speech/vocalizations, and overall body shape.

Species: Sylvan. Hopefully you get the idea here.

Species members share a basic genetic similarity and can interbreed and produce viable or fertile offspring.

[thefarmer]

...... or Asian people are smarter and a smaller PP, and white people are just crazier.

:(

[Fallen]

I'm trying really hard to find what difference racism or "specism" makes.

But at the end of the day we all eventually came from the same substance (unless you're stupid and believe Jesus/Xenu created us). So does it matter, really?

It makes sense when attempting to apply racism/Speciesism in gemstone. People tend to adopt the, "Can't we all just ..get along?", mentality in GS when it isn't really appropriate. Likewise, people drum up the differences between the different races/species to a far greater extent than they really exist.

There are SUBSTANCIAL differences between certain races/species in gemstone. However, which of these differences determines if a race is "Superior" is entirely subjective.

[CrystalTears]

They both walk on four legs, they are roughly equal in strength.

Gnomes don't look anything like Giantkin. Krolvin don't look like ANYONE else. Your original argument was that they were all the same species. That makes just as little sense.Fallen, I'm just finding this discussion ridiculous and I'm kicking myself for involving myself in it. What exactly is the point of making the difference in the first place?

You wanted to make the difference in species because of their stats. I said that they could be dismissed as stereotypes. Now you're going on to how lions and bears are similar because they can walk on four legs? Geez.

This better not be about which race is superior or I'll /wrist.

[Fallen]

OK, but..



You can't use stat bonuses to point and say, "Look! They're different!" and ignore the guy in the corner that says "Look! Some are the same!"

You're asking me to show you how they aren't the same species. When I show you why, you say, "But some are really close!!". That does nothing to disprove the argument they are different species. Nothing at all. It is like saying A lion and a bear are REALLY CLOSE IN STATS. Still not the same. To quote Crystaltears, "not in any way whatsoever."

[StrayRogue]

Fallen, I'm just finding this discussion ridiculous and I'm kicking myself for involving myself in it. What exactly is the point of making the difference in the first place?


Agreed.

Do you have some compulsive need to create erroneous threads or something Fallen?

[thefarmer]

Fallen, I'm just finding this discussion ridiculous and I'm kicking myself for involving myself in it. What exactly is the point of making the difference in the first place?


What i'm failing to understand is why would anyone possibly become involved in the thread if they didn't care about the topic?

Boredom.

[Fallen]

Fallen, I'm just finding this discussion ridiculous and I'm kicking myself for involving myself in it. What exactly is the point of making the difference in the first place?

You wanted to make the difference in species because of their stats. I said that they could be dismissed as stereotypes. Now you're going on to how lions and bears are similar because they can walk on four legs? Geez.

This better not be about which race is superior or I'll /wrist.

My point with regards to you is this, "Although I will say that just because elves have disdain for humans, doesn't mean that it qualifies them as not of the same species.", Isn't true.

Yes, technically, the disdain elves have for humans doesn't make them another species. It is EVEEERYTHING else that makes them as such.

The original point of the argument was to discuss the issue of real life racism/speciesism versus Elanthian Racism...Hell, it was the title of the thread. What i'm failing to understand is why would anyone possibly become involved in the thread if they didn't care about the topic?

[Athgo]

http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/data/502/109argue.jpg

[thefarmer]

You're asking me to show you how they aren't the same species. When I show you why, you say, "But some are really close!!". That does nothing to disprove the argument they are different species. Nothing at all.

Evidence A = There are differences in stat bonuses in the races
Evidence B = There are similarities in stat bonuses in the races

You're exactly right, pointing to similarities does nothing to disprove your argument. What you're failing to understand is that You pointing to stat bonuses does nothing to PROVE your own argument that they are different species.

You can't point to A and say "I"m right!" and ignore B.

[CrystalTears]

The original point of the argument was to discuss the issue of real life racism/speciesism versus Elanthian Racism...What i'm failing to understand is why would anyone possibly become involved in the thread if they didn't care about the topic?Honestly? Because it's actually a pet peeve of mine when people continue to make a big deal about whether Elanthian races are actually races or species, just to have an excuse to feel more superior and/or pass judgements on people's relationships in the game. That's the ONLY reason I see of why this would be such a constant issue.

There is enough racism in the world that I don't need to see it at such a ridiculous level in a game that I'm trying to enjoy. I have no problem with prejudices and having races against other races. What I can't stand is trying to make it WORSE rather than better.

It's also a pet peeve when people try to make a real world comparison when nothing should be compared to Elanthia because nothing in the past would come close. All we have as reference is fantasy movies and novels like Lord of the Rings.

Allowing naginatas but not katanas (for a long time). Allowing silk but not cashmere. Allowing one metal but not another. Allowing popcorn but not some other "modern" food. The excuses for not having one but allowing another is such bullshit, all based on past medieval periods.

No one wants to accept or admit that this is another world, another dimension, another time and place, that cannot be compared, and should live under its own merit, and shouldn't matter that someone wants to have an alteration of one pant leg up and having spikey hair. It's as though the more people want to diversify, the more others try to take it away.

And now I'm rambling.

OMFG why do I continue to play this game I ask you? LOL

[thefarmer]

Honestly? Because it's actually a pet peeve of mine when people continue to make a big deal about whether Elanthian races are actually races or species, just to have an excuse to feel more superior and/or pass judgements on people's relationships in the game. That's the ONLY reason I see of why this would be such a constant issue.

There is enough racism in the world that I don't need to see it at such a ridiculous level in a game that I'm trying to enjoy. I have no problem with prejudices and having races against other races. What I can't stand is trying to make it WORSE rather than better.

It's also a pet peeve when people try to make a real world comparison when nothing should be compared to Elanthia because nothing in the past would come close. All we have as reference is fantasy movies and novels like Lord of the Rings.

Allowing naginatas but not katanas (for a long time). Allowing silk but not cashmere. Allowing one metal but not another. Allowing popcorn but not some other "modern" food. The excuses for not having one but allowing another is such bullshit, all based on past medieval periods.

No one wants to accept or admit that this is another world, another dimension, another time and place, that cannot be compared, and should live under its own merit, and shouldn't matter that someone wants to have an alteration of one pant leg up and having spikey hair. It's as though the more people want to diversify, the more others try to take it away.

And now I'm rambling.

OMFG why do I continue to play this game I ask you? LOL


CT hates yellow people. She told me IG in a NON OOC WHISPER!!!111!

[Fallen]

Evidence A = There are differences in stat bonuses in the races
Evidence B = There are similarities in stat bonuses in the races

You're exactly right, pointing to similarities does nothing to disprove your argument. What you're failing to understand is that You pointing to stat bonuses does nothing to PROVE your own argument that they are different species.

You can't point to A and say "I"m right!" and ignore B.

Stat bonuses are but *1* way to show the differences in races. *1* There are other bonuses to choosing a race which are far more telling. How long a race lives, how strong they can be. You have to look at a whole picture.

You're saying, "A tank is as strong as an elephant, they're very similiar. You can't use strength to show differences!" Sure, that logic works when you only use that ONE facet to highlight the differences and IGNORE everything else.

You can dismiss a giant's strength bonus in comparison to a dwarf's strength bonus..but then you just need to LOOK at the two races and see how vastly different they are. To use one of you people's favored arguments, they cannot produce off-spring, either. Stat bonuses, Life spans, physical descriptions, historical backgrounds, innate racial bonuses (massive TD boosts, etc), ALL are taken into account when looking at the differences between the playable races.

Do you even believe the argument you're championing, Farmer? You don't obviously believe humans and elves are the same species, do you? You're just bored and want to see me ramble, you bastard.

[Nieninque]

You're just bored and want to see me ramble, you bastard.

I don't think anyone could be that bored.

[Fallen]

I don't think anyone could be that bored.

You'd be surpised. Some people bother to post just to score, "Gotcha!", points. It's a straaaange world, Nieninque.

[Nilandia]

Honestly? Because it's actually a pet peeve of mine when people continue to make a big deal about whether Elanthian races are actually races or species, just to have an excuse to feel more superior and/or pass judgements on people's relationships in the game. That's the ONLY reason I see of why this would be such a constant issue.

I'll respond to this one only because I don't want to get involved in the rest of the arguments. Consider all of this to be aimed at no one in particular, but me using your words as a starting point for clarification.

I do believe that the various 'races' in GS are actually different species, but I will have to disagree with the generalizations offered here. I don't use racism to feel superior to other people or to pass judgments on relationships. I use racism because it's given in the documentation. If I want to play a stereotypical Elf, I have to deal with racism at one point or another. It comes with the territory.

For the most part, I only bring up the idea of the various races being different species when someone else takes significant offense of there being racism in game at all. Most of the people who express such opinions tend to bring in ideas of how they hate racism on an OOC level and don't want to see it in game, no matter how grounded in documentation it might be.

There may be some credence to the idea that 'speciesism' was created to soften the blow of racism and make it more palatable to people, such as myself, who hate OOC racism but are curious to explore it in an in-game context. Whether or not the argument is plausible or has the desired effect is another matter entirely, of course.

To make it brief where I've been rambling before, I don't believe in any sort of superiority over other people, and I don't judge other people's relationships unless they claim something utterly improbable like a halfling mating with a giant to make an elf. Do my characters believe it? You betcha, some do. Others are merely comfortable with people who share a similar background. In the end, however, my characters are not me. Whatever they believe, distasteful or not, is not necessarily my belief.

Gretchen

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I'll respond to this one only because I don't want to get involved in the rest of the arguments. Consider all of this to be aimed at no one in particular, but me using your words as a starting point for clarification.

I do believe that the various 'races' in GS are actually different species, but I will have to disagree with the generalizations offered here. I don't use racism to feel superior to other people or to pass judgments on relationships. I use racism because it's given in the documentation. If I want to play a stereotypical Elf, I have to deal with racism at one point or another. It comes with the territory.

For the most part, I only bring up the idea of the various races being different species when someone else takes significant offense of there being racism in game at all. Most of the people who express such opinions tend to bring in ideas of how they hate racism on an OOC level and don't want to see it in game, no matter how grounded in documentation it might be.

There may be some credence to the idea that 'speciesism' was created to soften the blow of racism and make it more palatable to people, such as myself, who hate OOC racism but are curious to explore it in an in-game context. Whether or not the argument is plausible or has the desired effect is another matter entirely, of course.

To make it brief where I've been rambling before, I don't believe in any sort of superiority over other people, and I don't judge other people's relationships unless they claim something utterly improbable like a halfling mating with a giant to make an elf. Do my characters believe it? You betcha, some do. Others are merely comfortable with people who share a similar background. In the end, however, my characters are not me. Whatever they believe, distasteful or not, is not necessarily my belief.

Gretchen

I was trying to think of a good way to respond, but this sums up my view of racism/speciesism in game pretty well.

[Some Rogue]

Fucking nerds.

[CrystalTears]

To state what someone else said to me privately earlier, you all seem to be forgetting the element of humanity. Of human beings with self expression, the ability to recognize cultures and art, and very similar biological traits. In that respect, I feel that all the races of Elanthia are essentially cut from the same cloth, so to speak, but just evolved into separate types of beings.

Reducing this all to species leaves it open and okay for dark elves to eat halflings rather than just abhore them racially. Hate and disrespect people all you want. But to reduce people to different breeds and species and all that just dehumanizes the entire thing and lessens the game experience for me when some just reduce some races to mere pets. If that's how the game is intended, I truly won't partake of it for much longer.

I also really don't need to hear that you're not your character. It's the way it should be. That should go without saying so please don't bring that up again.

[Fallen]

Trolls have culture and Art. Hell, full blooded Krolvin do too. So do Kobolds, Orcs, Ithzir, etc. They have feelings. They care for their children. They strive to better their society ... and they are still monsters. They are still lower forms of life on Elanthia. The problem is that some races view other races (That we as PC are able to select to play) in much the same way as a human or an Elf views a Kobold. That is the difference between Elanthia and Earth. Racism/Specism is A-OK in some instances in Elanthia. It just flat-out isn't here.

[The Ponzzz]

If we're going to bring science into this, then the "races" of Elanthia are different species. That seriously can't be any argument about that. Each race has different bone structure and anatomy makeup.

But shit, this is a fantasy RPG. We pew pew fire from our hands. So really, rules are thrown out the window.

[thefarmer]

Stat bonuses are but *1* way to show the differences in races. *1*

Stat bonuses are but *1* way to show the similarities in races. *1*


You're saying, "A tank is as strong as an elephant, they're very similiar. You can't use strength to show differences!" Sure, that logic works when you only use that ONE facet to highlight the differences and IGNORE everything else.

No, I'm not saying anything of the sort.

Human wisdom bonus (0) compared to elf wisdom bonus (0) /= tank (pwn machine) compared to elephant (poop mammal).

Since you didn't understand the first few times I've repeated myself I'll try wording it differently.

You've highlighted the fact that there are differences with stat bonuses between the races and choose to use this as evidence that each races is a different species. What is your explanation of the similarities in the stat bonuses?


Do you even believe the argument you're championing, Farmer? You don't obviously believe humans and elves are the same species, do you? You're just bored and want to see me ramble, you bastard.

I dunno about championing.. and while it IS amusing to see you ramble on, I think you've misinterpreted my position. I really just wanted to point out that the evidence you've put forth, specifically on stat bonuses, doesn't pan out. I also tend to think that if Simu says two different races can produce non-sterile offspring, then your comparison of a chimp/human hybrid is silly.

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and CT was on my side and she has big boobies!!!11!1!!!
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also, I was bored this morning while I was waiting for the wife to wake up and arguing with you is less likely to devolve into a "No ur dumb" No U" thread.

[Fallen]

I honestly do not believe humans being able to pork both half monkeys and elves alike to put out half-freaks has any significance in the process of categorizing any of them in terms of race or species. We're going to have to agree to disagree about the benefits of selecting each race in no way separating them. I think it is devolving into semantics.

[CrystalTears]

If presented correctly, I'm willing to concede that halflings, krolvins, dwarves, humans, gnomes and elves are different species. However I really won't bend with elves, dark elves or sylvans being different species. Those are races within the same species. I don't really have the strength to go back through this thread to see if that was being disagreed upon as well.

However since the reasons of how they were different wasn't really working as proof of differentiating species, I was just being my usual stubborn self. :D

The problem is that with all the half breeds around, it was difficult to accept that they were different, especially with my disdain for the actions of certain races with others.

[Fallen]

I think you're 100% correct, CT, in that the elves are not different species. They are different races of the same species. They all started out as sylvans, those that left the forests evolved into House Elves, and those that went to Rhoska-Tor were tainted by the magic in the land to become Dark Elves. While not the exact same definition of a race as we use on earth, they are all of the same ancestry. When they mate, they produce an elf, not a half-sylvan, half-dark elf, etc. Half-sylphs are half human half sylphs.