polearm empath vs. THW? or Archer?

[Apotheosis]

right.. i'm sure there's more than a few threads about this..

is this even a viable training path anymore? or would empaths be better suited for face-shattering?

IF you were going warpath route, what would be best? polearm, THW or archery?

i'm not gonna worry about skills/stats or training plans, cause I've got most of that figured out already.

[Durgrimst]

Archer empath is viable, a few do that actually. I have never done it so I do not know how point intensive it is when you are younger, but I know 2 older/capped ranged empaths.

[Apotheosis]

Eiadh had a great intro / guide to training plan / stat placement for archer empaths.. pretty interesting.. but the empath I have right now I'm training as a polearm.. cause.. well.... my bard went THW so.. i thought i would experiment with polearms.

[Swami71]

I'd pick THW cause its the cheapest to train in of the three and is pretty much the same as polearms. Mauls are a little weaker than a lance but you can use claidh's too. Not that I've tried it yet. :shrug:

[Danical]

Unless this is for RP purposes, absolutely use mageek to kill dickface creatures.

Physical combat is a waste of time.

[Asha]

You don't have any set up spells for archery. Can't leg them or drop an entire room.
I've seen THW go really well with empaths before boneshatter, you could hammer them when they don't die instantly with shatter, with your claidh.
I think it was Bumples. It was cool to watch.

[Apotheosis]

yeah.. .claidhs are nice, rt for them sucks.. not sure what a lance's RT is..

in the long run.. physical combat for empaths sucks.. unlike the GS3 days

[Fallen]

yeah.. .claidhs are nice, rt for them sucks.. not sure what a lance's RT is..

in the long run.. physical combat for empaths sucks.. unlike the GS3 days

How has an empath's ability to use weapons been lessened? I think that they are just as good, if not better than they ever were at doing so. They simply had their spells upgraded to the point where it is more efficient to hunt with them rather than a pointy stick.

[Apotheosis]

eh, basically, as an empath you can only train 1x in a weapon skill (at least the 2h weapons, poles).. when you think about OHE's really suck...

I can see a polearm / THW + bone shatter empath working.. but even then, empaths don't get a lot of options to attack noncorps, except for a few bolt spells...

the nice thing about bone shatter is that having an open hand + channeling causes more damage.. add manipulation lore to that, and well, it makes a good first strike / second strike once you have enough mana.

[Izzy]

Archery. 5 second minimum RT ftl. Archery is quick, and with a decent set of stats you can rattle off shots in 3 seconds (just as quickly as spells). Plus better DS. Plus it's easier to get higher AS (5x bow/5x arrows much easier to get than 10x anything). With all the AS boosting spells, plus plenty of dissablers (web, 110, bind, etc) there isn't going to be much you can't hit.

[Beguiler]

I've taken my baby empath up to 24 so far with THW, and she's doing just great. As she gets older and gets 1130, things can only improve. Right now she uses mauls, but can pull out a claid and kick arse for sure. And she still has the spells... win win. Tsalim's THW guide for empaths for the win.

[Fallen]

eh, basically, as an empath you can only train 1x in a weapon skill (at least the 2h weapons, poles).. when you think about OHE's really suck...

I can see a polearm / THW + bone shatter empath working.. but even then, empaths don't get a lot of options to attack noncorps, except for a few bolt spells...

the nice thing about bone shatter is that having an open hand + channeling causes more damage.. add manipulation lore to that, and well, it makes a good first strike / second strike once you have enough mana.

Empaths get an insane amount of Melee AS from Intensity, Bravery, Heroism, and Empathic Focus. I imagine nearly enough to rival someone who is 2xing said weapon. It is their ability to only 1x CM versus semi's and Squares 2xing it that creates a gap. I agree with Beguiler that Tsalim and his guide on Warpuffs is probably the best around.

[Izzy]

eh, basically, as an empath you can only train 1x in a weapon skill (at least the 2h weapons, poles).. when you think about OHE's really suck...

I can see a polearm / THW + bone shatter empath working.. but even then, empaths don't get a lot of options to attack noncorps, except for a few bolt spells...

the nice thing about bone shatter is that having an open hand + channeling causes more damage.. add manipulation lore to that, and well, it makes a good first strike / second strike once you have enough mana.

115 for non-corps. Claidh isn't going to do shit for undead, and if they're training in a weapon they aren't bolting too. Nobody suggested sword/board. Empaths couldn't ever train more than 1x weapons, so your comparison to GS3 makes no sense. Actually, very little of your argument does. (Other than the open hand..which you also achieve via archery.)

Edit: Oh, another pro for ranged is that the secondary AS skill for ranged weapons (perception) is cheap, and you can 2x it for way less than a rank of CM. So looking at the combat skill costs of a TWH vs Ranged you've got 25/11 VS 15/12. I didn't realize 1109 was only melee AS, which is a downside..but archery still gets my vote.

[Fallen]

115 for non-corps. Claidh isn't going to do shit for undead, and if they're training in a weapon they aren't bolting too. Nobody suggested sword/board. Empaths couldn't ever train more than 1x weapons, so your comparison to GS3 makes no sense. Actually, very little of your argument does. (Other than the open hand..which you also achieve via archery.)

Wouldn't you also get the open-handed advantage with Two-handed weapons, too? It is like a Runestaff. One hand is considered "free" for spell casting.

[Izzy]

Wouldn't you also get the open-handed advantage with Two-handed weapons, too? It is like a Runestaff. One hand is considered "free" for spell casting.

Yep. I was trying to say that was the only point he made that was good; all three of the options (thw/poles/archery) leave the open hand for boosted Boneshatter goodness.

[Fallen]

I want to run the numers for a Square/Semi's ability to generate AS versus an empath but I can't because the official website blows too hard. Does anyone know how much AS 1x CM gives you, versus 2x? Same with Weapon AS? 1x versus 2x? I know both having diminishing returns, which levels off at 40 ranks, but I'm not sure on the exact bonuses.

[Izzy]

CM gives 1 AS per 2 ranks, non-diminishing.
Weapon AS is directly drawn from the bonus (ie, 24 ranks = 104? bonus = 104 AS).

Perception adds to ranged AS at a rate of 1 AS per 4 ranks, after 40 ranks (the first 40 ranks do not add any AS)

[Apotheosis]

Tsalim is probably the only THW warpath that I am aware of...


115 for non-corps. Claidh isn't going to do shit for undead, and if they're training in a weapon they aren't bolting too. Nobody suggested sword/board.

The only reason I brought sword/board up was, back in the GS3 days, I had a warpath that went that route, and was pretty badass, even before heroism/bravery bonuses. when gs4 hit, the ohe/shield method was gimped..



Empaths couldn't ever train more than 1x weapons, so your comparison to GS3 makes no sense. Actually, very little of your argument does. (Other than the open hand..which you also achieve via archery.)

it's been so long, but I thought you could 2x train weapons in GS3 (as an empath)....



Edit: Oh, another pro for ranged is that the secondary AS skill for ranged weapons (perception) is cheap, and you can 2x it for way less than a rank of CM. So looking at the combat skill costs of a TWH vs Ranged you've got 25/11 VS 15/12. I didn't realize 1109 was only melee AS, which is a downside..but archery still gets my vote.

only reason i am not pro archery at this moment is that I am hearing rumors about archery nerfs coming down the road....

[Fallen]

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A CALL TO NERF MELEE BASED EMPATHS. I AM SIMPLY RUNNING NUMBERS :END NOTE

So an empath is missing out on 152ish points of AS by not being able to double CM and weapon type? (101 extra bonus from 2x weapon, 51 from 2x CM)

They can get +40 from Bravery and Heroism (Not including lores), +15 From Empathic Focus, and a base of +20 from Intensity at level 30. This gives them a total of +75 Spell Born Melee AS at level 30. This caps out at +110 AS from native spells at cap. That's only a difference of 42 AS.

The empath could then get Wizard's Strength and Phoen's Strength for a combined +25, bringing the difference down to 17 AS. Obviously, every other class can wear those outside spells as well, but we're talking about getting a viable Melee AS, not building on top of an already viable one.

I would say that the build is quite viable. I would suggest a high enchant lance, awl-pike, or maul.

[Izzy]

only reason i am not pro archery at this moment is that I am hearing rumors about archery nerfs coming down the road....

Bitches will be choked if this happens. Also, "down the road" means like 35 years for Simu ;).

I happen to love every archer I've played, just doing my best to offer my 2cents with reasons why :)

[Apotheosis]

Bitches will be choked if this happens. Also, "down the road" means like 35 years for Simu ;).

I happen to love every archer I've played, just doing my best to offer my 2cents with reasons why :)


that's appreciated.... i'm just against sinking time in fletching, etc. + using a fixskills for something that will likely be nerfed.. and don't think they won't nerf it.. lol..

[BigWorm]

Polearms/THW is for sure the way to go for a young empath. I liked the versatility of pole arms because I could pwn with lance or use a shield with a spear if I needed the extra DS, which is often useful at low levels.

[Fallen]

Polearms/THW is for sure the way to go for a young empath. I liked the versatility of pole arms because I could pwn with lance or use a shield with a spear if I needed the extra DS, which is often useful at low levels.

That, and you're pretty damn unique. You're a pure who can kick ass with a two-handed weapon. Are there ANY War wizards left? Anyone above level 50 that still play?

[BigWorm]

And your AS is pretty sick at level 15 with 211, 215, and 1109.

[Izzy]

That, and you're pretty damn unique. You're a pure who can kick ass with a two-handed weapon. Are there ANY War wizards left? Anyone above level 50 that still play?

I've seen some guy in storm griffens. Stormgren or something? He dies a lot :P

[Fallen]

And your AS is pretty sick at level 15 with 211, 215, and 1109.

I'm told your AS is just as good as, if not better than most everyone else until level 40. Squares and the like start to pull away there until your spell growth catches back up to them.

[Dwarven Empath]

I love the Maul.

To me, way better then ranged or polearm.

I like to crush alot.

Medi...

[Dwarven Empath]

They can get +40 from Bravery and Heroism (Not including lores), +15 From Empathic Focus, and a base of +20 from Intensity at level 30. This gives them a total of +75 Spell Born Melee AS at level 30. This caps out at +110 AS from native spells at cap.

+145AS ..with signs, selfed spelled.

[Fallen]

They can get +40 from Bravery and Heroism (Not including lores), +15 From Empathic Focus, and a base of +20 from Intensity at level 30. This gives them a total of +75 Spell Born Melee AS at level 30. This caps out at +110 AS from native spells at cap.

+145AS ..with signs, selfed spelled.

Gotta love COL. But you're giving up Crit weighting/padding and that fucking awesome Stamina wracking to get a bit of AS. I think all empaths are better off in GoS.

[droit]

Gotta love COL. But you're giving up Crit weighting/padding and that fucking awesome Stamina wracking to get a bit of AS. I think all empaths are better off in GoS.

I have to agree. The one thing I can see an empath missing from CoL is sign of staunching, but I think that is more than made up for by the natural health regen of 3x PF and sigil of mending.

By the way, just how much health does an empath with 303 PF ranks regen per minute? As a giantman with 202 ranks, I get 12/min (27/min with mending).

[Danical]

All you people don't seem to understand just how fucking retarded 1x weapon training is when it comes to E/B/P.

That aside, I'd definitely go GoS for a physical empath. They can spam the -20 DS/AS (sigil of intimidation) ability and reduce the E/B/P (sigil of distraction) of creatures too.

You can also 3x PF (that's fucking stupid they even have the ability but whatever); you should have shitloads of stamina.

I would personally go really light on Major and Minor Spirit and get at least 1x Empath to keep the AS up. With the left over points, I would pick up summoning lore and spell aim and use 118 as a setup spell; it's fucking awesome. Bound things don't E/B/P (I don't think?) and have dramatically reduced DS.

Also, the analysis of empath AS compared to other profession's AS is flawed in that other professions have a means to increase theirs either by their own spells (1025, 425, 610, 1610, 1608, etc) or CMans (surge, wspec, bonding). Essentially, you're looking at the very top end of empaths and the very low end of other builds which isn't very fair.

Unless this is an RP choice, go with spells.

[Fallen]

All you people don't seem to understand just how fucking retarded 1x weapon training is when it comes to E/B/P.

That aside, I'd definitely go GoS for a physical empath. They can spam the -20 DS/AS (sigil of intimidation) ability and reduce the E/B/P (sigil of distraction) of creatures too.

You can also 3x PF (that's fucking stupid they even have the ability but whatever); you should have shitloads of stamina.

I would personally go really light on Major and Minor Spirit and get at least 1x Empath to keep the AS up. With the left over points, I would pick up summoning lore and spell aim and use 118 as a setup spell; it's fucking awesome. Bound things don't E/B/P (I don't think?) and have dramatically reduced DS.

Also, the analysis of empath AS compared to other profession's AS is flawed in that other professions have a means to increase theirs either by their own spells (1025, 425, 610, 1610, 1608, etc) or CMans (surge, wspec, bonding). Essentially, you're looking at the very top end of empaths and the very low end of other builds which isn't very fair.

Unless this is an RP choice, go with spells.

This is true. If you want to meld spells and weaponry in an actually beneficial manner, then be a magical rogue.

[Danical]

This is true. If you want to meld spells and weaponry in an actually beneficial manner, then be a magical rogue.

If you really want to use both magic and weapons go with a Semi.

I'd say bard if you like speed and power (Attack Helicopter), Ranger if you like stealth/ambushing (Stealth Bomber), and Paldadin if you like having huge AS and survivability (Heavy Tank).

[Fallen]

If you really want to use both magic and weapons go with a Semi.

I'd say bard if you like speed and power (Attack Helicopter), Ranger if you like stealth/ambushing (Stealth Bomber), and Paldadin if you like having huge AS and survivability (Heavy Tank).

Eh. Paladin spells in battle situations blow compared to the other Semi's. They are better off using CMANS because their spells make them just about as good at them as a warrior. They just get the boosts to their AS/DS/TD from their spells.

[Danical]

Eh. Paladin spells in battle situations blow compared to the other Semi's. They are better off using CMANS because their spells make them just about as good at them as a warrior. They just get the boosts to their AS/DS/TD from their spells.

I dunno.

I've seen some shots of 1615 and it doesn't seem to be crit-capped. If you were a paladin heavy in spells, you could kill if it hit a vital location (like 1030) with the additional benefit of possibly kneeling the target which comes with 10 seconds of RT. It'd be massively mana intensive, but it's pretty rad.

[Fallen]

I dunno.

I've seen some shots of 1615 and it doesn't seem to be crit-capped. If you were a paladin heavy in spells, you could kill if it hit a vital location (like 1030) with the additional benefit of possibly kneeling the target which comes with 10 seconds of RT. It'd be massively mana intensive, but it's pretty rad.

I've seen D throw it around. I wasn't impressed, really. Atleast, not so much so that is worth missing out on the utility and badassedness of Bards and Rangers.

[TheLastShamurai]

I crit kill creatures in Nelemar about 10% or less of the time with 1615/1630. It has a lot do to with how spell intensive you are, what type of crit your spells cause and what you're casting at. My crush crits do pretty well against humanoids like the tritons.

Also one the thing I've noticed about 1615/1630 is that if the crit (and this happens frequently with crush crits) makes them fall to the ground instead of kneel, there is no RT and they can stand right back up.

[Fallen]

I crit kill creatures in Nelemar about 10% or less of the time with 1615/1630. It has a lot do to with how spell intensive you are, what type of crit your spells cause and what you're casting at. My crush crits do pretty well against humanoids like the tritons.

Also one the thing I've noticed about 1615/1630 is that if the crit (and this happens frequently with crush crits) makes them fall to the ground instead of kneel, there is no RT and they can stand right back up.

Really, it is just better to specialize in using the lores to regain the lost CMAN and Shield use benefits of not being a warrior. That is where a Paladin excels. They can have nearly ALL of the perks of being a warrior and none of the detractors.

Beseech > Berserk
Disabling spells > Warcries
Paladin DS, TD, AS > Warriors DS/TD/AS

You can block just about as well with Divine Shield, you can CMAN just about as hard with Patron's Blessing. You can get better effects via Sanctify than Weapon bond, etc Paladins are just Warriors +1. I wouldn't say they are on par with Bards or Rangers in terms of spell usage in combat, though. I don't think they were ever supposed to be.

[Danical]

Also one the thing I've noticed about 1615/1630 is that if the crit (and this happens frequently with crush crits) makes them fall to the ground instead of kneel, there is no RT and they can stand right back up.

First, Unbalance is the type of crit that would prone something.

Second, as far as RT is concerned. I would bug this or ask on the boards because that's bullshit. When Radicals get a 101 outcome on me and I get "kneeled," I always take 10 RT. Bloody bullshit if you ask me.


Really, it is just better to specialize in using the lores to regain the lost CMAN and Shield use benefits of not being a warrior. That is where a Paladin excels. They can have nearly ALL of the perks of being a warrior and none of the detractors.

Beseech > Berserk
Disabling spells > Warcries
Paladin DS, TD, AS > Warriors DS/TD/AS

You can block just about as well with Divine Shield, you can CMAN just about as hard with Patron's Blessing. You can get better effects via Sanctify than Weapon bond, etc Paladins are just Warriors +1. I wouldn't say they are on par with Bards or Rangers in terms of spell usage in combat, though. I don't think they were ever supposed to be.

Well, yeah, warriors R DUMB.

Your CMan advantage with 1611 caps at 2x so a paladin feint would never be on par with that of a wtrick master warrior.

They, have that, I guess. What warriors need is a reason to train past 140 armor and to have their DR somehow affect spell crits they invariably take.

[Fallen]

You think the benefits from 1611 stops at the equivalent of 2x CM? I highly doubt this as Paladins can 2x CM. They can get pretty damn close to Guild level CMANs via lores.

[BigWorm]

They, have that, I guess. What warriors need is a reason to train past 140 armor and to have their DR somehow affect spell crits they invariably take.

Hey, rogues are squares too and we need that shit.

[Danical]

BUT YOU HAVE STUNMAN!!!!!!!!!!! YOU SHOULD BE SO LUCKY!

[BigWorm]

BUT YOU HAVE STUNMAN!!!!!!!!!!! YOU SHOULD BE SO LUCKY!

Why must you mock me? :(

[Danical]

Do you think, maybe one day, they will actually do some development for rogues?

That's be rad.

Until then . . . MONKS!!!!!!!

[BigWorm]

Do you think, maybe one day, they will actually do some development for rogues?

That's be rad.

Until then . . . MONKS!!!!!!!

Yeah, one day. Supposedly they are going to work on fixing the hiding mechanics RSN. They're only like 10 years late on that.

[TheLastShamurai]

Out of curiosity, what do you think Rogues need?

I've never really played one so I don't have a clue what would make them better.

[Danical]

Rogues and warriors both need a reasonable way to stay alive when hit with a spell.

The warding margins become absurd at cap unless you wear a metric shitton of spells which kinda defeats the point of being a warrior if you're going to be glowing like a christmas tree.

[TheLastShamurai]

I've always thought it would be neat if they got rid of cmans from the Guild training and added like a 6th rank (Grandmastery) to cmans for Squares (also allowing Squares to 3x cman). Then replace cmans with Magic Resistance Training in three spheres (Spiritual, Mental and Elemental).

I also think cmans should be grouped. Example...

Group I: Any profession can know.
Group II: Semis can learn (meaning if one semi profession has it, we all have it.)
Group III: Squares can learn.
Group IV: Profession specific cmans (only for squares).

Each Group can learn the Group under it. Would allow for more diversification amongst cman learning professions. Rogues/Rangers could learn charge, etc.

[Jaimaltz]

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A CALL TO NERF MELEE BASED EMPATHS. I AM SIMPLY RUNNING NUMBERS :END NOTE

So an empath is missing out on 152ish points of AS by not being able to double CM and weapon type? (101 extra bonus from 2x weapon, 51 from 2x CM)

They can get +40 from Bravery and Heroism (Not including lores), +15 From Empathic Focus, and a base of +20 from Intensity at level 30. This gives them a total of +75 Spell Born Melee AS at level 30. This caps out at +110 AS from native spells at cap. That's only a difference of 42 AS.

The empath could then get Wizard's Strength and Phoen's Strength for a combined +25, bringing the difference down to 17 AS. Obviously, every other class can wear those outside spells as well, but we're talking about getting a viable Melee AS, not building on top of an already viable one.

I would say that the build is quite viable. I would suggest a high enchant lance, awl-pike, or maul.

In fairness, you're not comparing the natural AS any warrior/rogue would have. Empaths can't get surge, wspec, bonding (warrior), berserk AS bonuses (warrior), warcries(warrior), ambush ds pushdown and crit weighting (rogue mostly) etc.

Also, those squares can grab a pure potion at any time, empaths already have the spell built in, so they can't use it to improve. They'll also get more evade/block/parries of their attacks because they have less weapon ranks.

[Danical]

In fairness, you're not comparing the natural AS any warrior/rogue would have. Empaths can't get surge, wspec, bonding (warrior), berserk AS bonuses (warrior), warcries(warrior), ambush ds pushdown and crit weighting (rogue mostly) etc.

Also, those squares can grab a pure potion at any time, empaths already have the spell built in, so they can't use it to improve. They'll also get more evade/block/parries of their attacks because they have less weapon ranks.

You're like 20 posts too late.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=893677&postcount=31

[Apotheosis]

yeah.. too true.. but this brings up a good point: E/B/P

I almost forgot about 110 + Bind, so that solves a lot of problems....

That was one of the big issues I had with gs3 - gs4 warpath: gs4 warpath got blocked/evaded/parried WAY too much..... which is why I went pure..


but I can see lvl 40+ being viable, with gobs of mana +unbalance/bind
you just need gobs of mana to be able to fling all those spells around.. and wracking kills AS...

[Danical]

yeah.. too true.. but this brings up a good point: E/B/P

I almost forgot about 110 + Bind, so that solves a lot of problems....

That was one of the big issues I had with gs3 - gs4 warpath: gs4 warpath got blocked/evaded/parried WAY too much..... which is why I went pure..


but I can see lvl 40+ being viable, with gobs of mana +unbalance/bind
you just need gobs of mana to be able to fling all those spells around.. and wracking kills AS...

Don't waste your time with Bind/Unbalance. You won't have enough CS if you're only 2x in spells. 1x will be exclusively Empath (For AS) and .5x will be spread in each MnS and MjS.

With that in mind, get 118 with summoning lore so you can web stuff. Web is fucking awesome. Also, IIRC, web bolt crits work on the unbalance table. Pretty cool stuff.

[Apotheosis]

well.. this is how it looks at lvl 8....

Armor Use............................| 35 8
Polearm Weapons................| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 35 8
Arcane Symbols...................| 58 12
Magic Item Use...................| 58 12
Harness Power.....................| 58 12
Spirit Mana Control..............| 35 7
Mental Lore - Manipulation... | 20 4
Mental Lore - Telepathy........ | 25 5
Perception............................| 25 5
First Aid...............................| 66 16

Spell Lists
Major Spirit.......................| 8

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 3

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 8

by 20 i'll have some of this stuff spread out a bit better...

no cman for now..

[Danical]

I'd go with a claid, personally, but w/e.

If you're not in your first 30 days then reroll otherwise:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=827190&postcount=15

[Izzy]

well.. this is how it looks at lvl 8....

Armor Use............................| 35 8
Polearm Weapons................| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 35 8
Arcane Symbols...................| 58 12
Magic Item Use...................| 58 12
Harness Power.....................| 58 12
Spirit Mana Control..............| 35 7
Mental Lore - Manipulation... | 20 4
Mental Lore - Telepathy........ | 25 5
Perception............................| 25 5
First Aid...............................| 66 16

Spell Lists
Major Spirit.......................| 8

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 3

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 8

by 20 i'll have some of this stuff spread out a bit better...

no cman for now..

Why telepathy lore?

[Danical]

For the lulz.

[Apotheosis]

well, i'm looking between Eiadh's archer guide and Tsalim's warpath / thw guide.. and trying to go with what i "envision" my warpath to act like..

clearly.. i might rule out bolt spells for now, but eiadh's argument was to go for 5 telepathy ranks for the bonus to empathic assault cycles...

tsalim says "either train in spell aiming or don't" so... i gotta decide if I wanna drop the aiming altogether and go for cman's... which seem expensive and pointless given the minimal as/ds benefit per 2 ranks

[Izzy]

well, i'm looking between Eiadh's archer guide and Tsalim's warpath / thw guide.. and trying to go with what i "envision" my warpath to act like..

clearly.. i might rule out bolt spells for now, but eiadh's argument was to go for 5 telepathy ranks for the bonus to empathic assault cycles...

tsalim says "either train in spell aiming or don't" so... i gotta decide if I wanna drop the aiming altogether and go for cman's... which seem expensive and pointless given the minimal as/ds benefit per 2 ranks

I figured it was for empathic assault, but you don't have any spell aiming so I was confused. If you don't have spell aim, there's no reason to have the telepathy.

[Fallen]

well, i'm looking between Eiadh's archer guide and Tsalim's warpath / thw guide.. and trying to go with what i "envision" my warpath to act like..

clearly.. i might rule out bolt spells for now, but eiadh's argument was to go for 5 telepathy ranks for the bonus to empathic assault cycles...

tsalim says "either train in spell aiming or don't" so... i gotta decide if I wanna drop the aiming altogether and go for cman's... which seem expensive and pointless given the minimal as/ds benefit per 2 ranks

Not even DS from CM anymore. Just maneuver defense, CMAN points, and +1 AS per 2 ranks in the higher stances.

[Beguiler]

For what it's worth, I've managed to 1x spell aim and .7x CM with my 24 THW empath, and should be fully 1x CM and 2x Spell Aim further down the road. Of course TPS are squeezed so tight they squeak.

But she can use empathic assault relatively effectively right now even with singling spell aim, and fire spirit as well with 5 MOC.

[Danical]

You think the benefits from 1611 stops at the equivalent of 2x CM? I highly doubt this as Paladins can 2x CM. They can get pretty damn close to Guild level CMANs via lores.

As we discussed, the above is false.

[Apotheosis]

well.. even at low levels, it's apparent that E/B/P is going to be an issue..... so 1106 is a great backup, i think..

[Danical]

If that's the case, for the love of Allah, go with spells.

[CrystalTears]

well.. even at low levels, it's apparent that E/B/P is going to be an issue..... so 1106 is a great backup, i think..
You'll need manipulation for that.

[Izzy]

well.. even at low levels, it's apparent that E/B/P is going to be an issue..... so 1106 is a great backup, i think..

Does weapon training have an effect on your opponant's EBP? I thought the only consideration there was your level VS target level. Weapon training certainly affects YOUR ability to parry...but I don't think only 1xing a weapon affects your ability to hit your target with regard to the EBP system.

[Apotheosis]

Does weapon training have an effect on your opponant's EBP? I thought the only consideration there was your level VS target level. Weapon training certainly affects YOUR ability to parry...but I don't think only 1xing a weapon affects your ability to hit your target with regard to the EBP system.

This is a realm that I am not familiar with, however, compared to my bard who 2X THW's, the 1x Polearm empath seems to encounter E/B/P vs. critter than the bard... Clearly, I haven't logged the events, so have no statistical data to back up this observational situation.

[Gnomad]

I played a THW empath to somewhere in the high 30s. It was very viable through there. He did get parried a little more than a warrior would, but definitely not terribly more. When he was in CoL, he could overhunt by 5-10 levels no problem, save getting screwed by e-wave or something.

When I switched him to GoS, I got frustrated at not being able to solo camps (stupid reason) and stopped playing him.

Some notes:
Your CS in the spirit circles is low, but that doesn't make 110 as useless as some people said. Even with a 101 endroll, 110 gives a few seconds of RT and a knockdown. Always. The endroll only affects the length of the RT and the actual crit. Just pick your targets based on their CvA and you'll do fine.

If you don't augment your hunting with 1106 and 110, then you generally have enough mana to toss around 117 whenever you are in a pinch.

I found I did best by concentrating on Blessings Lore earlyish on. You'll be able to trade mana for stamina with 1107 (and get more mana back from GoS), get extra AS from 215, and a chance at an extra swing when you use 117. Being able cast 209 on yourself is a nice bonus too if you hunt arachnids.

Someone asked about health regen. It's irrelevant (until you get to the absurd levels at/around cap). 1101 is so fast and cheap at healing blood that it feels like cheating. Crit padded armor (especially brig or chain) and Troll's Blood feels like cheating too.

Swarms suck, and you'll be fucked by FoF many many times, but being able to cast Area Web helps a lot. Be aware that 1x in empath spells doesn't give you reliable enough endrolls on 1120 for it to turn the tide of a fight. You'll get maybe a round of peace, to cast 213 or 130, but not much more than that.

Early on, learn to love Calm. It's unbalanced as shit. For 1 mana, creatures get calmed for 5 seconds per point of success, and you can cast it from guarded without losing any effectiveness. That means getting a +113 gives you a full minute of calm. For one mana. You hit a creature at +160 and you can ignore him for the rest of the hunt. Best way to handle swarms at a low level or undead that your claidh can't hit.

[Fallen]

Early on, learn to love Calm. It's unbalanced as shit. For 1 mana, creatures get calmed for 5 seconds per point of success, and you can cast it from guarded without losing any effectiveness. That means getting a +113 gives you a full minute of calm. For one mana. You hit a creature at +160 and you can ignore him for the rest of the hunt. Best way to handle swarms at a low level or undead that your claidh can't hit.

Good point. I was surprised to see there isn't a scaling cost, but as one progresses so many things shake calms that it balances itself out.

[Gnomad]

The one downside:

(Full health, full defensive, self-spelled.)

A tegursh sentry throws a pitted iron jeddart-axe at you!
AS: +221 vs DS: +132 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +99 = +212
... and hits for 75 points of damage!
Slash strikes your left eye.
Seems there was a brain there after all.
(Melting)

[kookiegod]

Saw this thread and rememberd this post from the officials.

Your welcome.

~Paul

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I'm going to repost my guide on training a two handed weapon user. You can easily adapt it to use with a polearmer.

First pros and cons.

Cons: You will be behind other empaths in terms of magical and "fun to have" skills. If you truly dedicate your character to heavy weapons you'll be training in fewer expensive skills rather than many of the normal empathic skills. I'd also say that in terms of uberness you'll fall behind spell casting empaths, so if you want to make an uber empath of dooooom it won't be for you.

Pros: Fun, and it is a whole lot of fun. Role-play, training a marshal empath opens up quite a few role-play options. Ease of play, once you learn the basic hunting tactics involved with large weapons character advancement isn't difficult. In fact prior to level 20 using a claidhmore is far easier than attempting to hunt with spells. Did I mention fun?

Now on to species selection.

Think carefully before choosing one of the hardier species simply for the extra AS because they are slow, too slow for my taste. I'd personally recommend one of the elven varieties, either dark, half, pure, or woodland but playing a halfling or a gnome would work too. The only problems with the latter two will be their negative strength bonuses and I do not recommend them if you havent played a small race before.


Please, please read (or reread) the race and culture documentations prior to deciding on a race, and pick one that you'd be comfortable role-playing. My biggest pet peeve is PCs who do totally disregard the impact their race has on their personality. Culture should be much more integral to the character than profession.


How to train your empath.

The only character crippling mistakes you could make when training an empath would be to not train in either harness power, physical fitness, or empath spells. If you train in those three skills and nothing else you can reach the level cap as a pure healer. You don't even need to be fully trained in any of them, sad isn't it?

But this guide isn't about general empath training, you want to learn how to beat the snot out of your foes with a great big sword which means the first skill you'll need is two-handed weapons.

Keeping in mind that you're still going to be mechanically playing an empath you can't neglect the professions core training. 2x spells, 1x PT, and 1x-1 harness power. 1x-1 is my term for not training past your actual level in harness power because the rate of return, 1 mana, is not worth the TP investment.

You'll also see that I recommend 1x PT for ever instead of stopping once you reach your max HP like a lot of healers do. PT not only increases health points it also increases stamina which you'll be using a good bit. PT also helps to reduce the amount of climbing and swimming needed, increases HP regeneration (which I admit is unnecessary for empaths) and also helps avoid or reduce the severity of some maneuver attacks. All and all it is a great skill for minimal cost that empaths pay.

Which spells when? That's easy, 1x empath, or close to it. Just make sure to get 1130 at 30. In the major circle you'll need 211 at 11 and 215 at 15 then stop training in it for a while. In the minor circle you'll want 103 ASAP and then once you get 215 start working towards 120. After that you'll know what spells you want to focus on. Just a hint, teleportation spells aren't a big deal because you'll be too busy knocking your enemies hearts out of their back to worry about rescues. Besides you'll get to those spells eventually, no rush.

Armor: The heavier the better, your empath is going to get hit. Get 15 ranks ASAP and wear leather breastplate, it'll work just fine until around level 48 when it's time to migrate skills around so that you have 50 ranks and can wear chain mail. My empath is in torso chain now and Im looking forward to when Ill be able to move up to double chain.

CM: Train as much as possible without sacrificing the previous skills, eventually you'll want to be fully trained in it both for the added AS as well as access to CMAN skills.

CMAN: Feint and disarm are the most popular but with the recent change that prevents multiple feints in order to stack RT and stance pushdowns feint has lost most of its previous luster. Another option is dirt kick because unlike other CMAN skills it can be used effectively from defensive. Whichever you choose three ranks of one skill so that it'll be useful in like level combat and then get three ranks of another. After that you'll know if you want to get more ranks in one, both, or learn another cman skill.

MOC: Get 5 ranks so that you can hit a pair of foes for now but I'm sure you'll want to bump that up to 30 for focused strikes later, much later.

Okay, that's the basic build and it'll leave you with training points left over to flesh out your character. I recommend the following skills in no particular order.

Spiritual mana control: Get up to 30 ranks when you have spare MTPs to be able to share with other empaths and help increase your mana regeneration.

Mental mana control: Reduces the thresholds for critical wounds when casting bone shatter and increases mana regeneration, train in it when you have spare MTPs

MIU and Scroll Reading: Get 20 ranks or so of each when you have spare MTPs.

Spell aiming: 2x it or forget it. If you have a high dexterity bonus (which you should) then 1x can be useful for tossing an occasional aimed spell. I started out with spell aiming and enjoyed using it but have since traded it for more armor and CM.

First aid: I personally think that all empaths should 2x this skill but training less or not at all isn't going to kill you. 3x is definitely overkill for a heavy weapon user in my book, but I think its overkill for a casting empath too. Combat wise first aid no longer increases the chance of an instant kill with bone shatter (1106)

Lores: Without spell aiming I cant think of a single lore that Id recommend training in until far past level 50. Even after level 50 you really dont need them. The only one that I recommend is blessing lore. (Exception: Sunfist members may want to train in blessing lore earlier to increase stamina regeneration via adrenal surge.

The way that manipulation lore effects bone shatter (1106) has now been changed. No longer does it determine the damage caused by the spell, instead it has taken the place of first aid in increasing the frequency of instant kills. What that means to a heavy weapon user is that you can forget about training in manipulation lore for bone shatter because we dont use it as a killing spell but primarily as a set up spell in order to render a foe more vulnerable to a weapon strike.

Don't train in transformation lore to reduce healing round times. It's an utter waste of good training points because your round times will decrease as you gain levels.

Perception: This isn't way down here because I think it's unimportant, it's actually a good skill to have in moderation. I recommend training in it every other level.

Done with skills, now time to wrap it up with stats

Without getting to in depth there are a few basics to keep in mind. You'll need a combined reflex and dexterity bonus of 38 in order to swing a claidhmore in 5 seconds. That doesnt mean that youll need a 38 right out of the box, Id shoot for it at level 10 or so because claidhmores are just that cool. Strength is a slow grower so place it high, over 90. Wisdom and influence are important because they determine your starting mana and they give double points but they grow so fast that I'd put them somewhere around 70, maybe lower. Discipline is generally considered a good stat to tank but I placed mine high in order to mitigate that horrid elven penalty and because once mental magic is released it will determine your mental TD.

One thing that I do want to touch on is using growth intervals to your advantage when placing your stats. If done correctly you can essentially gain a few extra training points.

Here is how it works:

An elven empaths strength stat has a growth interval (GI) of 10 so when placing your stats you want to try and place it as a multiple of 10 and then subtract 1. So lets say you placed strength at 90 it would increase to 91 at level 9. But if you were to place strength at 89 (multiple of the GI-1) it would increase to 90 at level 8 and 91 at level 9 and then continue to grow as if you had set it to 90 initially which gives you that precious extra training point to put into another stat. Youre not going to be able to us this method for every stat, especially when trying to balance training points but its something to keep in mind when creating any character.

So that you can see some numbers here are the starting stats for my elf, keep in mind that I had the advantage of reallocating during the GS3 to GS4 conversion.

Level 0 Stats for Tsalim, Elf Empath

Strength (STR): 93
Constitution (CON): 88
Dexterity (DEX): 86
Agility (AGI): 70
Discipline (DIS): 73
Aura (AUR): 62
Logic (LOG): 20
Intuition (INT): 39
Wisdom (WIS): 65
Influence (INF): 64

Good luck and feel free to ask questions.


Salim

>>Force without justice is violence,
>>Justice without force is weakness.

[Gnomad]

Tsalim knows his stuff. If you're going with the most effective training plan, go with his.

He's also an awesome RPer.

I pushed my mental support skills a little bit harder (SMC, MMC, Arcane Symbols, MIU, Lores earlier, etc.) so that I can hit things with a runestick and for RP reasons as well.

[Iamnaeth]

I'm far from an expert on spiritual circles but don't Empaths get access to spirit stike too? That could be added in to +75 self spelled. At least for the first swing to stun.

[Asha]

spirit strike is indeed an excellent addition to all MNS enabled swingers!