Returning Player Questions Level Cap

[MossyBoi]

Level Cap Question:

How many players are at the max 100 now? Does the game seem more boring now that there is no hope of levels above 100?

Will it remain static? How much longer *really* would it take to max out at 100 for a new player? Much longer than it used to?

Is there any consensus that a higher percentage of players will reach 100... and then perhaps quit the game completely? I wonder if it will be a higher percentage given that 100 is approx 60 levels lower than the cap used to be (I think).

100 levels just doesn't seem to be that much..... perhaps I just don't know of what I speak given my many years away from the game....

Does anyone care to offer an opinion as to whether the hard cap will be upwardly expanded?

Thanks for any and all responses.

~MossyBoi

[Soulpieced]

I completely disagree with the way the cap is implemented. And I'm sure eventually nearly everyone that is 100 will get bored as hell and just stop doing stuff to get experience. But that is just my perspective. And yes, my PC is 100.

[Hips]

Originally posted by MossyBoi
100 levels just doesn't seem to be that much..... perhaps I just don't know of what I speak given my many years away from the game....

They upped the experience needed to level. Ridiculously so, at very high levels (in my opinion, anyway). I know that a mid-level char (48 train wizard) gains 1 MTP or PTP per hunt if he's lucky.

[Jonty]

It only takes 72.5k more to reach the cap in GS4 than it did in GS3.

[Edited on 2-10-2004 by Jonty]

[Bobmuhthol]

There are ~50 active level 100 characters. Active as in logged in since GS4. The game is as boring as it was before.

Without meditation and dreams, it does take longer to cap, but the experience difference isn't a whole lot. I think it's something like 90,000. Or maybe 900,000...

The cap used to be 160, yes, but now the cap is harder to reach and you can still advance in skills. More people are probably going to play a capped character than before.

The experience requirement for a level has gone up a lot, to the point where higher levels need hundreds of thousands of experience.

The cap won't be expanded, and you can gain skills to be maxed out in everything so it doesn't matter anyway.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Soulpieced
I completely disagree with the way the cap is implemented. And I'm sure eventually nearly everyone that is 100 will get bored as hell and just stop doing stuff to get experience. But that is just my perspective. And yes, my PC is 100.

Thanks for your answer - but do you think that a larger percentage of characters will reach this cap than before? If so, and it's significant enough, Simu would have to raise the level cap.

Besides, I don't think that I like the idea of playing long enough to become an uber-character that knows *everything*. That seems a bit too unrealistic for me.

~MossyBoi

[Jonty]

Originally posted by MossyBoi
but do you think that a larger percentage of characters will reach this cap than before?

I doubt it since it takes more EXP to level now. I see 100k+ exp to level and I don't feel like hunting anymore....

[Trinitis]

What one must remember, is even if you max all your skills once you cap, you are still not a master of those skills, unless they are a "natural" skill to you. As a sorcerer, yes, you can get 101 ranks of hiding, but good luck out hiding a rogue with his 303 ranks. Its all still class set up.

-Adredrin

[Syberus]

I'm 85, and my levels I think are 106k a level.. going up .5k every train until it maxes at 112.5 or so.

[Jonty]

Yeah, it's 112.5k for the last level.

[Edited on 2-10-2004 by Jonty]

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
There are ~50 active level 100 characters. Active as in logged in since GS4. The game is as boring as it was before.

Without meditation and dreams, it does take longer to cap, but the experience difference isn't a whole lot. I think it's something like 90,000. Or maybe 900,000...

The cap used to be 160, yes, but now the cap is harder to reach and you can still advance in skills. More people are probably going to play a capped character than before.

The experience requirement for a level has gone up a lot, to the point where higher levels need hundreds of thousands of experience.

The cap won't be expanded, and you can gain skills to be maxed out in everything so it doesn't matter anyway.

Ah, only around 50... interesting. I don't know. I personally feel like I would rather this game not have a final goal that is achievable. I like the idea of level expansions. I like the idea that this game will never be "done" and I think that goes hand in hand with never "beating" the game either.

The fact there is a hard cap doesn't motivate me because I know there will be an ending.

Question: Is experience on the whole absorbed more slowly in addition to the vastly larger amounts of experience required to level?

I see that now you can "train" many times per level, correct? Do most people find this appealing? I think I would. Particularly if as you say it takes too long between levels......

~MossyBoi

[MossyBoi]

Thanks everyone for all these quick responses. Love it.

[Trinitis]

Ah, only around 50... interesting. I don't know. I personally feel like I would rather this game not have a final goal that is achievable. I like the idea of level expansions. I like the idea that this game will never be "done" and I think that goes hand in hand with never "beating" the game either.

The fact there is a hard cap doesn't motivate me because I know there will be an ending.

Question: Is experience on the whole absorbed more slowly in addition to the vastly larger amounts of experience required to level?

I see that now you can "train" many times per level, correct? Do most people find this appealing? I think I would. Particularly if as you say it takes too long between levels......


Honestly, I understand why they wanted to go with the hard cap. With the game uncapped, you run into a system of extreamly hard char's to deal with. Its hard to plan invasions and RP settings when you have asshats with uber power leveled PC's that can blast anything you send in. They end up having to make Trolls with DS's of 130000 to be able to continue without getting slaughtered.

On the other hand, the cap does place a almost...finished feeling to the game. But if you want to max your char..good luck in ever reaching it. Heh, at 1 TP / every 10k or so exp? Its going to take a sorcerer FOREVER after cap to just get 1 rank of dodge...let alone 101 ranks of 'em.

-Adredrin

[Jonty]

It's 1/1 TPs for every 2500 experience.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
What one must remember, is even if you max all your skills once you cap, you are still not a master of those skills, unless they are a "natural" skill to you. As a sorcerer, yes, you can get 101 ranks of hiding, but good luck out hiding a rogue with his 303 ranks. Its all still class set up.

-Adredrin

Does this mean, not being a rogue, that I couldn't train 102 times in hiding? Being a sorcerer am I limited to 101 trainings only?

[Jonty]

Originally posted by MossyBoi
Question: Is experience on the whole absorbed more slowly in addition to the vastly larger amounts of experience required to level?
~MossyBoi

They tweaked the exp formula some. It's not that big of a difference though. They made absorbing while your mind is less full a little faster, and made absorbing while fried a little slower depending on your stats. They removed the penalty to absorbing EXP for being armed in town. And they added a small bonus for being grouped. On the field, the bonus is larger, and in town it is smaller. The maximum benefit it 4 people grouped.

[Jonty]

Originally posted by MossyBoi
Does this mean, not being a rogue, that I couldn't train 102 times in hiding? Being a sorcerer am I limited to 101 trainings only?

Yes. If you can only 1x the skill, you can only get 101 ranks in it. If you can 2x it, then 202 ranks, 3x ... 303 ranks.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Jonty
It's 1/1 TPs for every 2500 experience.

Ok, so regardless of profession or race, at the highest levels it's 1/1 TPs? You mean, one physical and one mental, is that correct?

Wonder how long it would take to train fully in all skills? Or in just profession-related skills, as there are bound to be some neglected skills for each profession...?

[Edited on 2-9-2004 by MossyBoi]

[Jonty]

Originally posted by MossyBoi
Ok, so regardless of profession or race, at the highest levels it's 1/1 TPs? You mean, one physical and one mental, is that correct?

Wonder how long it would take to train fully in all skills? Or in just profession-related skills, as there are bound to be some neglected skills for each profession...?

[Edited on 2-9-2004 by MossyBoi]

Yes, after level 100 you gain TPs at a rate of 1/1 TPs per 2500 experience.

Tsoran did a calculation of how long it would take to train in every skill while gaining experience at 1k/hour, 24/7. I think it was someting like 7-9 years. I don't recall if he calculated from level 0 or level 100.

[Latrinsorm]

Speaking of which, I've heard a couple (admittedly pessimistic) people say that no new (start from 0) character will ever reach the cap once DR kicks in, simply because of the pace of advancement and the failings of the human psyche.

[Jonty]

:lol2: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention DR points. That's another thing that will slow people down from reaching the cap in GS4.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin


Ah, only around 50... interesting. I don't know. I personally feel like I would rather this game not have a final goal that is achievable. I like the idea of level expansions. I like the idea that this game will never be "done" and I think that goes hand in hand with never "beating" the game either.

The fact there is a hard cap doesn't motivate me because I know there will be an ending.

Question: Is experience on the whole absorbed more slowly in addition to the vastly larger amounts of experience required to level?

I see that now you can "train" many times per level, correct? Do most people find this appealing? I think I would. Particularly if as you say it takes too long between levels......


Honestly, I understand why they wanted to go with the hard cap. With the game uncapped, you run into a system of extreamly hard char's to deal with. Its hard to plan invasions and RP settings when you have asshats with uber power leveled PC's that can blast anything you send in. They end up having to make Trolls with DS's of 130000 to be able to continue without getting slaughtered.

On the other hand, the cap does place a almost...finished feeling to the game. But if you want to max your char..good luck in ever reaching it. Heh, at 1 TP / every 10k or so exp? Its going to take a sorcerer FOREVER after cap to just get 1 rank of dodge...let alone 101 ranks of 'em.

-Adredrin

I hear what you're saying Adredrin, but I don't understand. At least, I used to. I was hoping with GS4 a system could be created that would alleviate some of these difficulties. Evidently, that's not the case.

Oh well. The more I think about it, the more I think the game would be too tedious for me to play a maxed character very much. Were I ever to get to that point, of course. Doubt that will ever happen.

I just like the idea of it never being finished is all.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Jonty

Originally posted by MossyBoi
Ok, so regardless of profession or race, at the highest levels it's 1/1 TPs? You mean, one physical and one mental, is that correct?

Wonder how long it would take to train fully in all skills? Or in just profession-related skills, as there are bound to be some neglected skills for each profession...?

[Edited on 2-9-2004 by MossyBoi]

Yes, after level 100 you gain TPs at a rate of 1/1 TPs per 2500 experience.

Tsoran did a calculation of how long it would take to train in every skill while gaining experience at 1k/hour, 24/7. I think it was someting like 7-9 years. I don't recall if he calculated from level 0 or level 100.

7-9 years? Is that all? Hehe.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Speaking of which, I've heard a couple (admittedly pessimistic) people say that no new (start from 0) character will ever reach the cap once DR kicks in, simply because of the pace of advancement and the failings of the human psyche.

What in the world is DR? In the old days, that just meant DragonRealms...........

[Bobmuhthol]

Death Recovery. Once it's implemented, every time you die, you "lose" 1000 experience. It goes to your DR total and 1/2 of any experience you absorb goes toward working off DR without gaining it back.

It's something like 1k for a death with deeds, 10k for a death without deeds or a decay with deeds, and it used to be 50k for a decay without deeds but I think it was lowered.

This, however, still isn't in effect.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Death Recovery. Once it's implemented, every time you die, you "lose" 1000 experience. It goes to your DR total and 1/2 of any experience you absorb goes toward working off DR without gaining it back.

It's something like 1k for a death with deeds, 10k for a death without deeds or a decay with deeds, and it used to be 50k for a decay without deeds but I think it was lowered.

This, however, still isn't in effect.

Does that mean there will be no permadeath?

[Jonty]

It's 20k for decaying without deeds. I don't recall it being anymore than that.

[Jonty]

No more being lost to the demonic.

[Bobmuhthol]

I remember reading the first documentation on GSIV. It was 50,000 for what would have been a permadeath.

[MossyBoi]

Originally posted by Jonty
No more being lost to the demonic.

Too bad. I can recall such spectacular suicides. :)

or in my case stupid mistakes

[MossyBoi]

Mine too. Mistakes. Stupid.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Speaking of which, I've heard a couple (admittedly pessimistic) people say that no new (start from 0) character will ever reach the cap once DR kicks in, simply because of the pace of advancement and the failings of the human psyche.
I dunno. Dial it back to 1995 and ask the old GEnie players if anyone'd ever make it to 100th, most of us would'ved laughed ourselves hoarse. FIFTY was huge back then.

And if no one does go zero to 100 now, so what? When did Simu promise guaranteed advancement to cap? Friggin' monkeys.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
And if no one does go zero to 100 now, so what? When did Simu promise guaranteed advancement to cap? Friggin' monkeys. Regardless of the past, I think the complaint is not that it isn't easy to reach cap, most people agree it shouldn't be easy. No, the complaint is that it is nearly impossible to reach cap without extreme Ebaying or MA-ing. Now that I think of it, however, this only seemed to be applied to those who hunt, I'm not sure what the consensus is on healing/raising/picking. I would suspect that healing and raising will be better off while picking will be worse.

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by MossyBoi
Ok, so regardless of profession or race, at the highest levels it's 1/1 TPs? You mean, one physical and one mental, is that correct?

Wonder how long it would take to train fully in all skills? Or in just profession-related skills, as there are bound to be some neglected skills for each profession...?


It's 1/1 per 2500 exp ONLY after you hit level 100. Below that, you get 1 TP (of whichever type) at equal intervals, spreading out your total TP for the next level evenly as you progress to that level.

Meaing, if your next level is 40,000 exp, and you're getting 50 training points, you'll get 1 training point every 800 exp. (40,000 divided by 50).

As for how long it would take to max out all the skills... it would take a LONG time. It's very likely nobody will ever do that. I worked the numbers out once, and it's an almost unachievable number. If you consider how much effort was involved to get to level 160 in GS3, the amount of time/exp/effort to max out all your skills in GS4 is something like 10 or 20 times as long. I think it worked out to 9 years of powerhunting 24/7/365. That's a long time to go without eating, sleeping, or hitting the bathroom even once. Even a hardcore powerhunter would take 30 or 40 RL years to do it.

[Xcalibur]

There are skills USELESS for some professions:

An empath don't need to be maxed in moc, nor in ambush, nor armor, nor demonlogy and so on.

So reaching the max in ALL skills is useless.

But, i think the cap is really crap, still.


[Edited on 11-2-04 by Xcalibur]

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm.
No, the complaint is that it is nearly impossible to reach cap without extreme Ebaying or MA-ing.

From what I've seen so far, hunting is easier in GS4, and experience absorbtion is as fast or faster than before.

Yes, meditation and dreams are nerfed in terms of EXP. But not everyone is a cleric, and lots of power hunter go with COL to be stronger hunters. They're not affected by this nerf.

You absorb EXP faster at low mind states now. Overall, I seem to be gaining exp faster now than in GS3. (I'm talking about my rogue who is in COL.)

My guess is it's probably easier now to reach the cap than it was in GS4, with a couple of caveats:

* If you have a reckless hunting style, meaning you don't care if you die a lot, you're not going to advance very quickly once DR gets turned on. If you're a total coward (like me), and rarely die, you'll do much better.

* Characters who were benefiting from enhanced EXP absorbtion from meditating/dreams will likely advance slower than before, essentially at the same rate as everyone else.

* My comments apply to my hunting/game play style, so your milage may vary.

[Galleazzo]

What Tsoran said.

And something else. We been playing GSIV for 2 1/2 months, and already folks know how long it'll take to get to cap from zero, something that took years before? Puleeeze. Call back two years from now and we'll see.