Father at 13

[iJin]

BOY dad Alfie Patten yesterday admitted he does not know how much nappies cost — but said: “I think it’s a lot.”
Baby-faced Alfie, who is 13 but looks more like eight, became a father four days ago when his girlfriend Chantelle Steadman gave birth to 7lb 3oz Maisie Roxanne.

He told how he and Chantelle, 15, decided against an abortion after discovering she was pregnant.

The shy lad, whose voice has not yet broken, said: “I thought it would be good to have a baby.

“I didn’t know what it would be like to be a dad. I will be good, though, and care for it.”

Source:http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2233878.ece

I honestly, don't even know what to say about this.

[Ashlander]

I'm more surprised the parent's are letting them keep the child. Are there any type of laws towards underage parents in the UK?

[Nieninque]

I'm more surprised the parent's are letting them keep the child. Are there any type of laws towards underage parents in the UK?

LOL

[SHAFT]

I just read that on CNN. Ever hear of abortion?

[radamanthys]

I wasn't much older than that... kid didn't know what he was doing.

And it sounds like the church may have had some involvement in the decision.

[SHAFT]

I wasn't much older than that... kid didn't know what he was doing.

And it sounds like the church may have had some involvement in the decision.

You had a kid around his age?

[Skeeter]

I have a friend who had a kid at 12. He's 31 now and his kid is 19. They look more like brothers.

[ViridianAsp]

IF they were against abortion the kid's parents should have put the baby up for adoption. I really think that is the most responsible thing....

But here I am talking about responsibility in an underage knocked up teen thread.

[radamanthys]

You had a kid around his age?

heh, I mean becoming 'active'

[Celephais]

heh, I mean becoming 'active'
Letting Rob play with you in a closet does not constitute "becoming active".

[iJin]

heh, I mean becoming 'active'


...You mean like 16, or something like that...right?

[radamanthys]

Naw, 14.

At Disney in Florida, no less.

[Ashlander]

Naw, 14.

At Disney in Florida, no less.

Where did Mickey touch you?

[iJin]

I wish I could rep you right now. Damnit. LOL

[radamanthys]

Everywhere.

[Hulkein]

That dad does not look like he is even close to puberty. I'm surprised he had any sperm.

[Dwarven Empath]

I'm 44, my kid is 21, his girl is 19.

And preggo.


I'm gonna be a grandpa in Sept.

LOL

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

IF they were against abortion the kid's parents should have put the baby up for adoption. I really think that is the most responsible thing....

But here I am talking about responsibility in an underage knocked up teen thread.

Frankly I think forcing a child into either one is wrong. Yeah, they shouldn't have fucked around before being prepared to deal with the consequences, but IMO as parents you either let them sink or swim on their *own* decisions. I don't think forcing adoption is any more ethical than forcing abortion.. that may be an unpopular viewpoint but I don't think that those 2 options were the only options that enforced responsibility.

[TheRunt]

Yeah, they shouldn't have fucked around before being prepared to deal with the consequences, but IMO as parents you either let them sink or swim on their *own* decisions.

How do you propose letting a 13 and 15 yr old sink or swim on there "own" decisions? Especially regarding a infant? I don't let my 14yr old sink or swim on his decisions regarding whether he does his homework or his bedtime. Let alone a fucking baby.

[Nieninque]

Frankly I think forcing a child into either one is wrong. Yeah, they shouldn't have fucked around before being prepared to deal with the consequences, but IMO as parents you either let them sink or swim on their *own* decisions. I don't think forcing adoption is any more ethical than forcing abortion.. that may be an unpopular viewpoint but I don't think that those 2 options were the only options that enforced responsibility.

Not only would it be unethical for their parents to force them to adopt the child, they have no basis in law in being able to do so.

Care proceedings (Local Authority removing the child), now that's another thing some way down the road, but enforced adoption at the grandparents say-so? Nah uh.

[Nieninque]

How do you propose letting a 13 and 15 yr old sink or swim on there "own" decisions? Especially regarding a infant? I don't let my 14yr old sink or swim on his decisions regarding whether he does his homework or his bedtime. Let alone a fucking baby.

Strangely enough, she isnt the first 15 year old girl to become a parent. Many 15 year olds are able to bring up children to be productive members of society.

This story is only newsworthy because the father looks like he is about 8.

[TheRunt]

Not only would it be unethical for their parents to force them to adopt the child, they have no basis in law in being able to do so.

Care proceedings (Local Authority removing the child), now that's another thing some way down the road, but enforced adoption at the grandparents say-so? Nah uh.

I'm going to assume that you meant that it would be unethical for their parents to force them to give the child up for adoption. Whether or not it would be unethical I think would depend on a case by case basis, I know a few parents that in my opinion its unethical to let them keep their children an they are well over the age of 15. And as for basis in the law, Well a parent is responsible for their child till the age of 18/21 depending on the law and interpretations thereof so therefor they are responsible for the child's offspring up until that point. Perhaps illegal for permanent adoption but legal for putting them up for foster care. And then let the children when they reach adult age then decide. And is it ethical for the children to force their parent to take on the added responsibility/cost to bring up a child for 3-5 years? And if not is it ethical for the parents to boot the kids out on their ass and make them fend for themselves?


Strangely enough, she isnt the first 15 year old girl to become a parent. Many 15 year olds are able to bring up children to be productive members of society.

This story is only newsworthy because the father looks like he is about 8.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this I know very few 15 yr olds that are mature and capable enough to bring up a child. At least in the more modern countries. If your talking third world African countries yes then perhaps but modern ones?

[Nieninque]

I'm going to assume that you meant that it would be unethical for their parents to force them to give the child up for adoption. Whether or not it would be unethical I think would depend on a case by case basis, I know a few parents that in my opinion its unethical to let them keep their children an they are well over the age of 15.

We, in the UK, are the experts in teenage pregnancy, so I'm going to have to say that there are many 15 year old mum's who are able to do so responsibly...with support, obviously...but the fact that she is fifteen does not mean this child's lifechances are borked.


And as for basis in the law, Well a parent is responsible for their child till the age of 18/21 depending on the law and interpretations thereof so therefor they are responsible for the child's offspring up until that point.

Trust me when I tell you that you could not be more wrong, at this stage. Despite the fact that they are children themselves, the fact that they have become parents gives them and no-one else parental responsibility for that child. Grandparents cannot make decisions about their grandchildren.


Perhaps illegal for permanent adoption but legal for putting them up for foster care.

Wrong.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on this I know very few 15 yr olds that are mature and capable enough to bring up a child. At least in the more modern countries. If your talking third world African countries yes then perhaps but modern ones?

I know several 15 year olds that have successfully cared for children.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

How do you propose letting a 13 and 15 yr old sink or swim on there "own" decisions? Especially regarding a infant? I don't let my 14yr old sink or swim on his decisions regarding whether he does his homework or his bedtime. Let alone a fucking baby.

Sorry, but the only people who should ultimately decide whether to abort, adopt, or keep a baby is the PARENTS (and specifically the mother) of the baby. As Nien said, the only reason why this is even newsworthy is that the father looks so young. I'm sure I'm going to be flamed for this opinion, but whatever. I think putting the baby into foster care "just until later" like you propose is a whole hell of a lot more irresponsible than what has happened here.

And Nien, I know it's illegal to try to force adoption or abortion-- I'm just saying that I agree with it being illegal because I think trying to force either is equally unethical.

[Gan]

I would certainly try to convince them to put the baby up for adoption. For their own future as much as the baby's future.

[Nieninque]

And Nien, I know it's illegal to try to force adoption or abortion-- I'm just saying that I agree with it being illegal because I think trying to force either is equally unethical.

Havent disagreed with anything you have said on the subject. Certainly wouldn't start there.

[DeV]

I agree with Nien's reasoning as to why this is a news story. The transfer of generational welfare is the most interesting aspect of this story, IMO. Sad.

[Nieninque]

I would certainly try to convince them to put the baby up for adoption. For their own future as much as the baby's future.

Their future is irrepairably changed...but that does not meaned ruined if they are supported to bring up the kid. Nor does it mean saved if the kid is adopted.

There is no quick fix to this situation. Lots of different ways of dealing with it and lots of potential consequences. Adoption is never the first point of call.

[crazymage]

id get nien pregnant if she was 15

[ViridianAsp]

I would certainly try to convince them to put the baby up for adoption. For their own future as much as the baby's future.

I'd have to agree with this. They are so young, they are going to miss out on a lot. I had my son at 19, I was and on my own. You miss out on a lot, it's hard to go to school and raise a child, not to mention, you're pretty much always broke and if you aren't you're barely making it. It's heart crushing in a lot of ways, too, especially if these two kids don't stay involved with one another.

I made my choice to keep my child, but I was older. The troubles these kids are going to face are going to be harder than what I went through X10.

I think it would be in the best interest of the baby and these kids to put the baby up for adoption. I'm not saying they can't do it, but in the end I think it'd be better all around.

[Kyra231]

I'd have to agree with this. They are so young, they are going to miss out on a lot. I had my son at 19, I was and on my own. You miss out on a lot, it's hard to go to school and raise a child, not to mention, you're pretty much always broke and if you aren't you're barely making it. It's heart crushing in a lot of ways, too, especially if these two kids don't stay involved with one another.

I made my choice to keep my child, but I was older. The troubles these kids are going to face are going to be harder than what I went through X10.

I think it would be in the best interest of the baby and these kids to put the baby up for adoption. I'm not saying they can't do it, but in the end I think it'd be better all around.

At this point in their lives anyone saying those kids are 'raising' that baby are delusional. Can they drive, get a job, make sure the kid gets to dr's appts & has diapers & clothes?

Just another case of grandparents raising their grandchild AND their children imo.

[Nieninque]

I'd have to agree with this. They are so young, they are going to miss out on a lot.

And they will learn and experience a lot too. It's a trade-off. It doesnt end their experience of the world, but it certainly changes it.

I had my son at 19, I was and on my own.[/quote]

Grats, but these kids are not you.


You miss out on a lot

You did...clearly. doesnt mean they will. Again, it changes what they will experience as opposed to meaning they will not experience anything.


it's hard to go to school and raise a child

No it isnt. There are problems with it. Not insurmountable problems though.


not to mention, you're pretty much always broke and if you aren't you're barely making it.

Welcome to parenthood.


It's heart crushing in a lot of ways, too, especially if these two kids don't stay involved with one another.

Very much so. The prognosis is not good in that respect, but if we applied that criteria to everyone, there would be a lot of childrne placed for adoption.


I made my choice to keep my child, but I was older. The troubles these kids are going to face are going to be harder than what I went through X10.

I think it would be in the best interest of the baby and these kids to put the baby up for adoption. I'm not saying they can't do it, but in the end I think it'd be better all around.

That will teach them to be responsible in the future, huh?

[TheRunt]

Trust me when I tell you that you could not be more wrong, at this stage. Despite the fact that they are children themselves, the fact that they have become parents gives them and no-one else parental responsibility for that child. Grandparents cannot make decisions about their grandchildren.

So it should be okay for the grandparents to refuse to support them with anything? Buying diapers/clothes/etc. And not helping with babysitting when they go to school. Hell how about not even allowing the child to live with them?

And there have been cases in the U.S. where grandparent have received full custody of their grandkids by suing in court and proving the parents unfit.



I know several 15 year olds that have successfully cared for children.

And I know a metric shit ton of 14-17 year olds that couldn't successfully care for a gold fish. My wife used to work at a day care at a high school. They had babies coming in drugged out on nyquil and alcohol the parents gave them so they could sleep. She called paramedics because she thought one of the infants was pissing blood, His diaper was soaked red. Turns out all the kids mother gave him over the weekend was red coolaid. That wasn't the only time something like that happened she just freaked out the first time she seen it. Diaper rash so bad it required a Dr. to treat it. The fathers weren't even allowed in the room because of a fear of gang fights. Hell a couple of times she found the moms stash in the kids diapers because the parent forgot to remove it.

[ViridianAsp]

Obviously you didn't read down at the bottom where I said, it's not that I don't think they can't do it, but it would be best all around if the baby was put up for adoption.

I was stating my experiences, and people shouldn't have children unless they can provide for them and not be on the brink of poverty. I also don't need a welcome to parenthood, I've been doing it for about seven years now, thnx.

[Gan]

Their future is irrepairably changed...but that does not meaned ruined if they are supported to bring up the kid. Nor does it mean saved if the kid is adopted.

There is no quick fix to this situation. Lots of different ways of dealing with it and lots of potential consequences. Adoption is never the first point of call.

Adoption would be my first point of call if I were the parent, or the child's parents...

[Nieninque]

So it should be okay for the grandparents to refuse to support them with anything? Buying diapers/clothes/etc. And not helping with babysitting when they go to school. Hell how about not even allowing the child to live with them?

I wouldn't say it's OK, but they would be within their rights to do so, yes.


And there have been cases in the U.S. where grandparent have received full custody of their grandkids by suing in court and proving the parents unfit.

That's nice to know. The kids in question, however, llive down the road from me, so it doesnt matter at all what has happened in the US, because English law applies to them.


And I know a metric shit ton of 14-17 year olds that couldn't successfully care for a gold fish...

I am well aware that the majority of teenagers are fucking idiots, however that doesnt mean they all are. I also know an imperial shit ton of adults who fit your description too.

[Nieninque]

Adoption would be my first point of call if I were the parent, or the child's parents...

Termination would have been my first point of call, but that's my preference. I am not so arrogant as to assume that I am in a position to call it for everyone else.

[Gan]

Termination would have been my first point of call, but that's my preference. I am not so arrogant as to assume that I am in a position to call it for everyone else.

To each their own, with regards to the end result.

However, I believe the parents have just as much a right to deciding the outcome as the baby's parents do.

[Stanley Burrell]

Like, this is the first time this has happened in the history of mankind for sure dude!

[Nieninque]

Not in UK law

[Tsa`ah]

So it should be okay for the grandparents to refuse to support them with anything? Buying diapers/clothes/etc. And not helping with babysitting when they go to school. Hell how about not even allowing the child to live with them?

These are all things within a parent's right to do. Despite your previous claim, they (the parents to children getting ready to become parents) have no legal responsibility to their grand children (cases of incest being exempt). The child/children can be booted from the home or to the state. The state, in the latter case, can go after the parents for criminal neglect, termination of parental rights, and perhaps (though I've never heard of it) recovery of the financial burden.

The grandparents have no legal right to force an adoption or foster situation. That process is only ancillary to the aforementioned situations.


And there have been cases in the U.S. where grandparent have received full custody of their grandkids by suing in court and proving the parents unfit.

This proves exactly what? Siblings, the state, grandparents, aunts and uncles have all been involved in such processes ... and not just in situations to take away parental rights from teenagers. Not all of such cases have rendered verdicts in favor for those seeking custody, nor do any of them speak in favor of your inference that a grandparent (or even the state) has the legal right to do anything about a teen's parental rights.

In each and every case the parent(s) must been deemed unfit.


And I know a metric shit ton of 14-17 year olds that couldn't successfully care for a gold fish. My wife used to work at a day care at a high school. They had babies coming in drugged out on nyquil and alcohol the parents gave them so they could sleep. She called paramedics because she thought one of the infants was pissing blood, His diaper was soaked red. Turns out all the kids mother gave him over the weekend was red coolaid. That wasn't the only time something like that happened she just freaked out the first time she seen it. Diaper rash so bad it required a Dr. to treat it. The fathers weren't even allowed in the room because of a fear of gang fights. Hell a couple of times she found the moms stash in the kids diapers because the parent forgot to remove it.

With that logic, no one should own a home, car, credit card ... let alone gun.

[ViridianAsp]

But see, here is the thing. IF you are a parent, you are responsible for said 13 year old until they are 18. So if you have to support your 13 year old, guess what? You'll be supporting their baby too, that or the state/government/province whatever will be. Which in my opinion is just one big cycle of irresponsibility when a baby could be placed with a loving couple who really wants a child and CAN FINANCIALLY TAKE CARE OF THEM.

[Amaron]

I do not know if it is the same in every state, but in mine, when a girl has a baby she is no longer a minor, she is now an adult in her own right.

She does her own tax return, she must apply for her own government help for her and the baby.

She makes her own decisions.

Thats why they have to go to court to have that changed, her parents cannot make the decisions for her, she is a legal adult.


To add, I have no idea if the parents of the mom have legal obligations anymore.

I just know that the 13 year old in my school who had a baby was considered an adult, and could sign herself out of school for appointments, her parents did not write excuse notes and no one had to sign her forms. She did it for herself.

And as an aside... She had a healthy baby, was a responsible student, is a 9th grader with straight a's and a beautiful baby boy.

J

[ViridianAsp]

I do not know if it is the same in every state, but in mine, when a girl has a baby she is no longer a minor, she is now an adult in her own right.

She does her own tax return, she must apply for her own government help for her and the baby.

She makes her own decisions.

Thats why they have to go to court to have that changed, her parents cannot make the decisions for her, she is a legal adult.

J



Even then, minors can't work a 40 hour work week. There are laws in place making sure children go to school, last I checked I'm fairly sure a paper route won't pay for rent, utilities, diapers, bottles, baby clothes and all the rest.

Look, I'm not saying they wouldn't make great parents. But the fact that they are so young, isn't in their favor, that's all I'm saying. I do believe in some ways here in California they are considered adults as in, they can make decisions concerning their children. But their parents would still be responsible for them.

[Tsa`ah]

But see, here is the thing. IF you are a parent, you are responsible for said 13 year old until they are 18. So if you have to support your 13 year old, guess what? You'll be supporting their baby too, that or the state/government/province whatever will be. Which in my opinion is just one big cycle of irresponsibility when a baby could be placed with a loving couple who really wants a child and CAN FINANCIALLY TAKE CARE OF THEM.

The price of being a shitty parent ... which is often the case with teenage pregnancy.

The problem with forced adoption is the forced termination of parental rights is where the line is drawn and who determines what, which is why it doesn't happen on a large scale. You really need to be abusive and/or a drug head with a long track record. Additionally everyone likes to assume adoption/fostering is the better alternative. With the current state of social services (specifically FL) it's likely the child will be placed into a situation far worse than that of a teenage parent.

Parents (grandparents) facing the very real future of having their teen kid becoming a parent can walk their kid through the welfare process. To suggest that the grandparents (those that keep their teens at home) are stuck with the tab ... they're not ... unless they're rich ... and even then they're not simply because the teen isn't (rich).

[Tsa`ah]

Father at 13 02-15-2009 01:37 PM Awesome for proving that you think 13 year olds should be able to keep children.

You're a fucking moron.

[Ignot]

At least it's not a bathroom prom baby.

[diethx]

13 year olds SHOULD be able to keep their children, so long as they aren't abusive. Just because it may not be the most comfortable situation in the long-run for said children, doesn't mean the children are being abused or harmed.

[Brattt8525]

Should they raise the child? sure if they want to. Is it the best situation/the right answer? no BUT it is done, there is no going back and making said baby poof away.

From the interview at this point the kids want to raise the baby. Will that change in a week/month year? Maybe. Until then I would say let them raise the baby <closely monitored of course> and as the grandparents try to be as supportive as you can be in spite of your own feelings.

There are a ton of what if's/I wouldn't let them/put the baby up for adoption etc etc. That is fine but in reality this isn't your situation and each person/s have to make choices they feel is best/right for all involved.

I still can't get over the boy being 13, he really does look like a little 8 year old.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Did anyone see the article about there being 2 other kids that claim to be the father?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hsJWPIbNNNcPxOcdoL-YGgukWXVA

When I first saw the picture, my first thought was that the girl found out she was pregnant, kissed the kid, and then told him that he just got her pregnant.

From what I've read, this whole incident is typical behaviour (I spelled it wrong in case there are any redcoats reading this) in England, fucking wankers.

[Nieninque]

hahaha...I like this part "The situation has provoked outrage from politicians and charity workers who said it exemplified the "complete collapse" of parts of society."

predominantly, the parts around the Old Town, Eastbourne.

[Hulkein]

Did anyone see the article about there being 2 other kids that claim to be the father?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hsJWPIbNNNcPxOcdoL-YGgukWXVA

When I first saw the picture, my first thought was that the girl found out she was pregnant, kissed the kid, and then told him that he just got her pregnant.

From what I've read, this whole incident is typical behaviour (I spelled it wrong in case there are any redcoats reading this) in England, fucking wankers.

I believe that this original 'dad' is not the father. I don't think he could physiologically impregnate a woman because of how pre-pubescent he looks. Imagine what he looked like 9 months ago when she became pregnant.

[Methais]

I believe that this original 'dad' is not the father. I don't think he could physiologically impregnate a woman because of how pre-pubescent he looks. Imagine what he looked like 9 months ago when she became pregnant.

There are people in their 20s that still look like they're 12, so I doubt that.

[Hulkein]

There are people in their 20s that still look like they're 12, so I doubt that.

First of all, this kid looks like he is 8. Second, people in their 20s who looks young just have babyfaces. I'd bet substantial money that this kid literally does not have armpit hair.

[Methais]

First of all, this kid looks like he is 8. Second, people in their 20s who looks young just have babyfaces. I'd bet substantial money that this kid literally does not have armpit hair.

That doesn't necessarily mean he can't shoot a load.

Edaarin probably has no armpit hair either. Does that mean he can't have a kid?

The kid is just a runt is all. I went to high school with people that looked like they were under 10.

There have been stories of girls getting knocked up as young as 8-years-old, probably even younger. So I'm pretty sure it's possible for a 13 year old that looks like he's 8 to knock up some chick.

[Stretch]

And as an aside... She had a healthy baby, was a responsible student, is a 9th grader with straight a's and a beautiful baby boy.

J

Don't forget the part about her being a DIRTY WHORE

lulz, I kid.



Edaarin probably has no armpit hair either. Does that mean he can't have a kid?

I do not have armpit / chest / back hair. Eat shit and die.

[Hulkein]

That doesn't necessarily mean he can't shoot a load.

Edaarin probably has no armpit hair either. Does that mean he can't have a kid?

The kid is just a runt is all. I went to high school with people that looked like they were under 10.

There have been stories of girls getting knocked up as young as 8-years-old, probably even younger. So I'm pretty sure it's possible for a 13 year old that looks like he's 8 to knock up some chick.

Edaarin is Asian, he doesn't count.

Seriously though, you grow pubes around the same time you start producing sperm. Unless Edaarin has the same disease as Charlie Villanueva, he has pubes, just not many of them. I don't think this kid was capable of creating a kid 9 months ago.

[Methais]

Edaarin is Asian, he doesn't count.

Seriously though, you grow pubes around the same time you start producing sperm. Unless Edaarin has the same disease as Charlie Villanueva, he has pubes, just not many of them. I don't think this kid was capable of creating a kid 9 months ago.

I had a man bush going on around my Italian sausage in like 4th grade.

[Ashlander]

I had a man bush going on around my Italian sausage in like 4th grade.

This image in my head my in fact be worse than goatse and tubgirl put together... Thanks Methias

[Methais]

This image in my head my in fact be worse than goatse and tubgirl put together... Thanks Methias

http://www.vujer.com/material/files/Borat_Two_thumbs_up_yours.jpg

[Hulkein]

I had a man bush going on around my Italian sausage in like 4th grade.

Then you could have had a kid in like the 4th grade. I was on the opposite end of the 'onset of puberty' spectrum.

[Tsa`ah]

General rule of thumb is that boys begin to produce "working" sperm around age 14 ... it's not a set rule, nor do physical attributes suggest a child is fertile or not.

[Celephais]

Thanks, google.

[Hulkein]

General rule of thumb is that boys begin to produce "working" sperm around age 14 ... it's not a set rule, nor do physical attributes suggest a child is fertile or not.

So lack of pubic hair is not an indicator? Got it. I'll let the AMA know about this.

[Tsa`ah]

So lack of pubic hair is not an indicator? Got it. I'll let the AMA know about this.

You really need to post a link to an AMA source that definitively explains a correlation between pubic hair and sperm production.

[Celephais]

Or a googled source purporting to be the AMA.

[Ignot]

You really need to post a link to an AMA source that definitively explains a correlation between pubic hair and sperm production.

Really? You want a source? I don't think anyone wants to spend time on google for pubic hair/sperm correlation.

[diethx]

Both spermatogenesis and secondary sex characteristics are developed by testosterone, so yes, they do have a connection. However Tsa'ah is right, in that spermatogenesis usually begins around age 14, on AVERAGE. It can start earlier if the boy enters puberty earlier, or later, etc. Secondary sex characteristics also occur during puberty, but they can most definitely mature after the gametes.

Some boys' secondary characteristics develop late... which would lead to the late-developing boys in high school. The skinny, short guys who get picked on for being wusses. That doesn't mean they aren't producing healthy, viable sperm. It just means the rest of their bodies haven't yet caught up.

[g++]

So lack of pubic hair is not an indicator? Got it. I'll let the AMA know about this.

I shot up late, too the point where I actually had a blood test. Despite being like 5 feet tall in 10th grade and looking like I was 12 my testosterone level was actually well above average, I grew a foot when I was 17 and started shaving.....there are so many variables and exceptions to the rule that I doubt the AMA would give you anything but broad indicators about whats going on in a teenagers body. They certainly would not recommend estimating sperm count by cheek chubbiness.

[Hulkein]

I was pretty much the exact same way, g++.

Edit: Although I didn't get a blood test, my family history was that of late bloomers. They weren't worried.

[Ignot]

Both spermatogenesis and secondary sex characteristics are developed by testosterone, so yes, they do have a connection. However Tsa'ah is right, in that spermatogenesis usually begins around age 14, on AVERAGE. It can start earlier if the boy enters puberty earlier, or later, etc. Secondary sex characteristics also occur during puberty, but they can most definitely mature after the gametes.

Some boys' secondary characteristics develop late... which would lead to the late-developing boys in high school. The skinny, short guys who get picked on for being wusses. That doesn't mean they aren't producing healthy, viable sperm. It just means the rest of their bodies haven't yet caught up.

Thank you sperm Doctor. :grin:

[diethx]

That's Nurse, to you.

[g++]

I was pretty much the exact same way, g++.

Edit: Although I didn't get a blood test, my family history was that of late bloomers. They weren't worried.

Well when your on travel soccer, played football and lacrosse your whole life and suddenly everyones towering over you it kind of sucks, I was more concerned then my family. I think as far as my life that was the one time I truly got jipped but I guess I would not have started playing gemstone, become a huge nerd and gone into computers had I continued doing sports. Funny how little shit like that ripples.

[Hulkein]

Hah, again, same for me. I was a really good baseball player but it was hard to keep up when they were all hitting puberty. Oh well, it worked out pretty well for me.

[aesir]

The real sad thing about all this is that I'm almost 35 and I still haven't had any sex.

[Celephais]

With a red hat avatar? How is that possible...

[BigWorm]

With a red hat avatar? How is that possible...

Hold on there cowboy. What are you trying to insinuate?

[Hulkein]

The real sad thing about all this is that I'm almost 35 and I still haven't had any sex.

Serious? If so, just get a hooker to get that monkey off your back.

[TheRunt]

Well when your on travel soccer, played football and lacrosse your whole life and suddenly everyones towering over you it kind of sucks, I was more concerned then my family. I think as far as my life that was the one time I truly got jipped but I guess I would not have started playing gemstone, become a huge nerd and gone into computers had I continued doing sports. Funny how little shit like that ripples.

Whats funny is that my son had almost the exact opposite problem, He was over the size limit for pop warner football. He wasn't allowed to play until the final year when the size restrictions were relaxed. When he hit puberty it was even worse. He started between 10-11 yrs old. At 12 he had a full bush. His one friend was literally half his size. They were playing football in the backyard and I watched his friend go to tackle him, poor kid took a running jump at him and bounced off didn't even stagger my son, he just looked around like what was that?

[Celephais]

You were looking at your kids cack when he was 12?

[Ashlander]

You were looking at your kids cack when he was 12?

His kid's one friend who was half his size too. :wtf:

[diethx]

Tests Show 13-Year-Old is Not a Father (http://www.parentdish.com/2009/03/26/tests-show-13-year-old-is-not-a-father/?icid=main|classic|dl3|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pare ntdish.com%2F2009%2F03%2F26%2Ftests-show-13-year-old-is-not-a-father%2F)

[Hulkein]

Not surprised at all.

[Methais]

SHE WAS A WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!!!!1

[Nieninque]

Can't get pregnant from kissing after all...
:(