Someone Check my Math, I must be doing this wrong: Bolt AS for Pures

[Fallen]

Before I X-post my math, I will say I did not factor in 117 and the Dex stat, nor did I factor in enhancives. That being said, someone look this over and tell me my numbers are off. If they aren't, then there is a problem.

----
211 + 215 base equals = +40 AS

The base from 425 = +25 AS

With a full 75 ranks of Minor Elemental you can bring that AS benefit to +50. This usually entails a significant post cap investment.

From the Docs - Training in Spiritual Lore, Blessings unlocks an ability at 65 ranks to cast a group version of the spell which lasts 60 seconds. Additionally, a +1 Attack Strength (AS) bonus for every 10 ranks of Blessings is available for self-cast only. This bonus comes at a cost of 15 Mana Points (MP) plus 1 per 3 AS bonus over 25. >>

Sounds like you can get an extra 20 AS from lores, but I would imagine that is a bit extreme in terms of training. That puts you at a max of +60. Not too shabby. Realistically we will say 1/3 of your lores into blessing = 67 ranks, so +6 AS. That's +46 AS from a moderate training plan, versus a +50 AS from a maxed out training plan of a sorcerer.

Lets look at empaths.

The base values for Bravery/Heroism +40 AS, then tack on another +20 AS base for Intensity.

Intensity caps out at + 65, for a total Bolt AS from spells at a theoretical max of +125 AS from spells. Realistically it would be +46 from Bravery/Heroism + 1/3 of all Blessings lore (Do empaths use Religion?), +65 from intensity, only a mutant doesn't 1x their main circle for a total of +111 AS. Wow. I hope I messed up somewhere as that is a crazy difference between Sorcerer(max +50 AS), Cleric(Max +60 AS), and the Mighty Empaths(Max +125). ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHERS, ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT THE SAME.

Lets look at wizards, the bolting pure class.

Base +25 from Targetting
Base +20 from Focus

= +45 baseline from spells.

Maxing their spells out, they get +50 from targetting and +43 from Focus = +93 from spells. I would say most non-Immo wizards are going to train for max Bolt AS.

So to recap:

Clerics Base + 40 AS
Sorcerers Base + 25 AS
Empaths Base + 60 AS
Wizards Base + 45 AS

Theoretical Max:

Clerics + 60 AS
Sorcerers + 50 AS
Empaths + 125 AS
Wizards +95 AS

Moderate Training plan at Cap

Clerics +46 (1/3 Blessings lore)
Sorcerers +37 (I am going say 50 ranks of Minor Elemental is roughly standard at cap)
Empaths + 111 (1x Empath Circle, 1/3 Blessing lore)
Wizards +95 (1x 500's?, .75x Minor elemental?)

That can't be right, but even a bit off it looks like there is certainly justification for more Bolt AS boosting spells going to Sorcerers and Clerics. What the heck is up with the amount of AS a supposed healing class can generate?

[Fallen]

If the numbers hold true, I can see a few solutions to the problem. Intensity should be ..glanced at. Empaths can put forth WAY too much AS, especially bolt AS as I didn't even figure in Empathic Focus.

If you don't want to go the Nerf Empaths!!!!11111one route, you could raise the cap for Bolt AS from Elemental Targetting(425) so that it stops at 101 ranks of Minor Elemental. That would give Sorcerers and Wizards another avenue for Bolt AS, but for an extremely high cost for not so much benefit. I would say uncap the benefits for CS from 425 too up to level 100 and it wouldn't be so bad. That, and give clerics a way to gain another +40 bolt AS or so from training up to 100 ranks in the Clerical circle, or from a lore benefit to one of their cleric spells.

[CrystalTears]

It's not like empaths have a lot of bolt spells to work with. So less talk about nerfing Intensity, kthx.

[Asha]

That can't be right, but even a bit off it looks like there is certainly justification for more Bolt AS boosting spells going to Sorcerers and Clerics. What the heck is up with the amount of AS a supposed healing class can generate?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Word. For Christs sake, word.

[Fallen]

Alright. Looks like I shafted clerics out of +15 additional AS from Benediction (307).

That puts Sorcerers firmly in last place for bolt AS. And bumps clerics up to A theoretical total of +75 AS, with a 1/3 lore bonus total at 61.

Still, wonky wonky wonky.

[Fallen]

It's not like empaths have a lot of bolt spells to work with. So less talk about nerfing Intensity, kthx.

You have Fire Spirit, which = Awesomesauce, and Empathic Assault, which equals Awesomesauce Squared. Then add Web Bolt for a sound, "Thundercats HOOOO!".

[CrystalTears]

What do sorcerors need more bolt AS for, out of curiosity?

[Xaerve]

I don't know where you got that max # from intensity from.


1130 · Intensity [INTENSITY]
Duration: 600 seconds + 10 seconds for every Empath spell known; refreshable

Type: Offense/Defense

This spell allows the Empath to increase their intensity by providing +20 to both Attack Strength and Defense Strength (Bolt, Melee, and Ranged AS/DS), + 1 AS/DS for every two Empath spells known beyond 30, capped at level.

The mana cost increases due to the bonus increase of this spell. The base mana cost is 30, +1 for every 3 AS/DS bonus over 20.

[Asha]

Just so I know, Fallen.. Do empaths get pushdown in critter TD to empathic attack CS spells?
Probably making up for the fact empaths have normally lower CS than sorcerers.
Thus negating the difference in CS between sorcerers and empaths really.

[Asha]

What do sorcerors need more bolt AS for, out of curiosity?

111.
It's a valuable spell for us too. It compliments 410 also we want bolt spells in future :D

[Fallen]

I don't know where you got that max # from intensity from.


+20 From the initial spell, then level = 100 - 30 = 70/2 = 35. 35+20 = 65

[Ignot]

I have from an officially unofficial but official source that monk bolt AS will be 855.

[CrystalTears]

+20 From the initial spell, then level = 100 - 30 = 70/2 = 35. 35+20 = 65
That's 55. Learn to add. :P

[Fallen]

What do sorcerors need more bolt AS for, out of curiosity?

A bolt spell being added to our primary circle is quite likely. That is what Disease is most likely going to be. Even if it isn't Fire Spirit is a fantastic spell. I am already specced to use it. Web Bolt is THE BEST bolt disabler in the game, period.

You don't need 50 bolt spells to be a strong bolting class.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Wizards should be King Kong of bolt spells, and they are not. I don't care about what the other classes have, just make mages better :)

Empaths should certainly not be the best bolters.

[Fallen]

That's 55. Learn to add. :P

Hah. Fair enough, that's why I said Check my math!!

[CrystalTears]

111.
It's a valuable spell for us too. It compliments 410 also we want bolt spells in future :D
Wait, with all the CS spells sorcerors currently have, the beef is to be able to use a fire bolt spell in the minor spiritual circle? Seriously?

[Xaerve]

+20 From the initial spell, then level = 100 - 30 = 70/2 = 35. 35+20 = 65

That's 55, which is correct.

[Asha]

Wait, with all the CS spells sorcerors currently have, the beef is to be able to use a fire bolt spell in the minor spiritual circle? Seriously?

There won't be just one bolt spell available to us. There will eventually be three (fingers crossed).
So yeah, seriously.

[CrystalTears]

Well then how about you collaborate to have more bolt AS spells, then to try and knock down the other professions in any way?

[Fallen]

While I agree that Empaths appear to have more AS than they should, this analysis is very flawed.

First of all, lores aren't considered when determining ROI. They're never used for calculations of baseline spell abilities. Additionally, if you are to consider it, you must consider the benefits for 307 and potentially there may be benefits with the impending elemental lore review. Even if you did consider them, most hunter-caster Empaths would be going for summoning lore over blessings lore due to the impact on their offensive spells. Likewise, Clerics more often go for religion lore.

Secondly, your numbers are wrong on Intensity. At level 100 with 100 spell ranks, 1120 offers +55 AS (+20 base + 1/2*(100 - 30)), not +65.

Thirdly, you ignored Benediction (307) for Cleric AS determination. That's +15 AS.

Fourthly, your Elemental Focus (513) numbers are off. At level 100 with 100 spell ranks, 513 offers +63.5 AS (+20 base + 1/2*(100 - 13)), not +43.

So, the actual numbers at level 100:

Sorcerers: 50 (425)
Clerics: 55 (211, 215 and 307)
Empaths: 95 (211, 215 and 1120)
Wizards: 113.5 (425 and 513)

Wizards come out on top, as it should be.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team
Voln/CoL Guru

[Xaerve]

Well then how about you collaborate to have more bolt AS spells, then to try and knock down the other professions in any way?

Agreed.

[CrystalTears]

Thank you Oscuro. Christ.

[Fallen]

Well then how about you collaborate to have more bolt AS spells, then to try and knock down the other professions in any way?

Hey, CT, could you please put your claws away? I'm not going to be pushing a nerf for the empath circle any time soon. I am just pointing out a MAJOR rift between their Bolt AS and everyone elses (- Wizards). I listed looking at intensity as one possible option, but that is certainly not what I favor. It does absolutely nothing for sorcerers or clerics.

[Xaerve]

Heh, I was just doing the 513 math because that looked off.

Wizards in Nelemar always have a higher bolt AS than me, and I have a ton of dex+spell aiming enhancive items. I also usually hunt with Kai's Song on.

[CrystalTears]

Hey, CT, could you please put your claws away? I'm not going to be pushing a nerf for the empath circle any time soon. I am just pointing out a MAJOR rift between their Bolt AS and everyone elses (- Wizards). I listed looking at intensity as one possible option, but that is certainly not what I favor. It does absolutely nothing for sorcerers or clerics.
No I really won't because it's what I rather despise of the sorceror class, that they keep wanting to have everything. You're complaining about the AS of empaths, when that's not the majority of what they use to hunt with in the first place. So your suggestion is to nerf Intensity.

I'm saying to focus on YOUR profession and see where YOUR profession can improve rather than TAKE AWAY from other professions.

[Fallen]

Sorcerers: 50 (425)
Clerics: 55 (211, 215 and 307)
Empaths: 95 (211, 215 and 1120)
Wizards: 113.5 (425 and 513)

Wizards come out on top, as it should be.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Factoring in lores, That gives Clerics and Empaths another +20, but obviously no one aside from Kitsun is going to go 202 ranks of Blessings Lore. I think Carabele is dead on that if sorcerers DO get a bolt spell that it needs some sort of either a DS pushdown or an AS booster.

[Fallen]

No I really won't because it's what I rather despise of the sorceror class, that they keep wanting to have everything. You're complaining about the AS of empaths, when that's not the majority of what they use to hunt with in the first place. So your suggestion is to nerf Intensity.

I'm saying to focus on YOUR profession and see where YOUR profession can improve rather than TAKE AWAY from other professions.

Just as long as you realize you're coming off as just as bad about profession/turf guarding as most sorcerers. OMG SORRY I TALKED SMACK ABOUT EMPUFFS. MY BAD K THX BYE.

[CrystalTears]

Just as long as you realize you're coming off as just as bad about profession/turf guarding as most sorcerers. OMG SORRY I TALKED SMACK ABOUT EMPUFFS. MY BAD K THX BYE.
I'm not the one saying to nerf anything regarding sorcerors. I'm saying to stop crying about other professions and what they have that you don't.

[Fallen]

This made me lol.
----

>>Sorcerers may get some help via the Elemental lore review, Oscuro, but it still looks like Clerics are left out in the cold when it comes to Bolt AS.

We're obviously aware of Cleric bolt AS values. It's not something we're concerned with at this time.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team
Voln/CoL Guru

[Fallen]

I'm not the one saying to nerf anything regarding sorcerors. I'm saying to stop crying about other professions and what they have that you don't.

I am sorry I pointed out a huge discrepancy in Bolt AS. It wont happen again, promise.

[Ignot]

Damn, Empaths get to heal and bolt that high? Everyone should just be an empath. To bad they are so gay, though.

[Asha]

its wrong to have Wizards as Bolt AS masters, and Sorcerers as masters of spell destruction pre gs4, then giving empaths pretty much the title of both through the last few years and telling someone of a previously powerful profession to stop QQing.

[Cephalopod]

To bad they are so gay, though.

Tayre doesn't play anymore.

[Fallen]

Damn, Empaths get to heal and bolt that high? Everyone should just be an empath. To bad they are so gay, though.

DISCLAIMER: MY STATEMENTS IN NO WAY REFLECT MY DESIRE TO SEE THE EMPATH PROFESSION NERFED, DIMINISHED, REVIEWED, OR GENERALLY BUGGARED IN ANY WAY.

Empaths are by far the most versatile class in the game. They can hunt with melee weapons of any type due to their AS boosters, they can heal for experience, they obviously can bolt extremely well, and they have a growing array of effective CS based hunting spells.

They are also defensively one of the best classes in the game, especially of any pure. They can utilize both Troll's Blood and Regenerate, as well as quickly heal themselves of injuries. They can 3x Physical Fitness, something otherwise only Warriors can do. This provides not only a strong advantage against Maneuver attacks, but also grants them more stamina, and a higher stamina regen rate to go along with their physical builds. Their hindrance tables also allows them to wear heavier armors than most pures. They can also cast any spell from the Empath circle regardless of wounds on their bodies.

Further, Empaths are by far the best class to utilize the advantages given to them by GoS. Their ability to 3x PT along with their ability to use 1107 to return all of their stamina via lore training gives them a very large pool of mana from which to draw.

They're a damn fine class. IMO the best.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I hate empaths.

[Fallen]

I hate empaths.

I like turtles.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I like turtles.

http://msp238.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/thatatariguy/turtles.jpg

[StrayRogue]

They are also defensively one of the best classes in the game, especially of any pure. They can utilize both Troll's Blood and Regenerate, as well as quickly heal themselves of injuries. They can 3x Physical Fitness, something otherwise only Warriors can do. This provides not only a strong advantage against Maneuver attacks, but also grants them more stamina, and a higher stamina regen rate to go along with their physical builds. Their hindrance tables also allows them to wear heavier armors than most pures. They can also cast any spell from the Empath circle regardless of wounds on their bodies.



Unless things have changed PT was a minor skill that affected only a few maneuvers. Boil was one such, probably a few CMans but not many.

Stamina for empaths is also pointless as they have access to what, 4-5 actual maneuvers, all of which are dependent on CM training and stance? Why try and feint something when you can just kill it?

Bards were always the best. The only melee class that can cast as hard as a sorcerer.

[mgoddess]

The base values for Bravery/Heroism +40 AS, then tack on another +20 AS base for Intensity.


Secondly, your numbers are wrong on Intensity. At level 100 with 100 spell ranks, 1120 offers +55 AS (+20 base + 1/2*(100 - 30)), not +65.

Thirdly, you ignored Benediction (307) for Cleric AS determination. That's +15 AS.

Fourthly, your Elemental Focus (513) numbers are off. At level 100 with 100 spell ranks, 513 offers +63.5 AS (+20 base + 1/2*(100 - 13)), not +43.

So, the actual numbers at level 100:

Sorcerers: 50 (425)
Clerics: 55 (211, 215 and 307)
Empaths: 95 (211, 215 and 1120)
Wizards: 113.5 (425 and 513)
It's interesting that Oscuro didn't even point out that you're missing 1109, which adds +15 to AS.

[Kitsun]

Factoring in lores, That gives Clerics and Empaths another +20, but obviously no one aside from Kitsun is going to go 202 ranks of Blessings Lore. I think Carabele is dead on that if sorcerers DO get a bolt spell that it needs some sort of either a DS pushdown or an AS booster.

Haha.

I wish I could just 3x Spirit Lores. I wanted to keep ~40 ranks of Summoning lore and get 160 Blessing. But I can't get Troll's Blood cleaning up all of the minor scars with less than 200 ranks. Ditching all my Summoning lore means I can't Web bolt so the AS boost from all the Blessing is somewhat diminished.

I didn't get a single fucking person on the officials to agree that it needs changing either. Damn non-capped, non-MAing, GS empath playing bastards.

[Fallen]

The MAing empuffs/clerics like Blessings for the Group AS boosters and netted +20 AS. Virilneus, for instance.

[Rimalon]

It's interesting that Oscuro didn't even point out that you're missing 1109, which adds +15 to AS.

1109 doesn't add to Bolt AS.

Also: fuck Empaths.

[Xiandrena]

But I can't get Troll's Blood cleaning up all of the minor scars with less than 200 ranks.


Blessing lore, in my opinion, is not worth it. Not even for the other crap you can get.

[Fallen]

They are attempting to make Blessings lore better.

[Fallen]

Unless things have changed PT was a minor skill that affected only a few maneuvers. Boil was one such, probably a few CMans but not many.

GMs have stated that PT is taken into account by nearly every creature maneuver. I'm not sure what if anything might have changed between what you are saying, and what Oscuro said concerning maneuvers. I am going off of what i've been told.


Stamina for empaths is also pointless as they have access to what, 4-5 actual maneuvers, all of which are dependent on CM training and stance? Why try and feint something when you can just kill it?

I'm honestly not sure how much warpuffs use maneuvers in their character builds, but doesn't stamina factor into M-strikes? There are a few melee builds which I know M-strike, not sure if they use other maneuvers, though. The real advantage is converting stamina to mana via GoS.


Bards were always the best. The only melee class that can cast as hard as a sorcerer.

Pure bards are awesome. 1030 open and focused is an amazing spell.

[StrayRogue]

GMs have stated that PT is taken into account by nearly ever creature maneuver. I'm not sure what if anything might have changed between what you are saying, and what Oscuro said concerning maneuvers. I am going off of what i've been told.


CM is the skill. Always will be.

[Rathain]

They are attempting to make Blessings lore better.

You are placing a higher stock in blessing lore than most newly capped clerics - most I spoke to had 10 -20 ranks. The lore overall is still pretty crappy unless one group hunts or MAs enough to make it worthwhile. That would place clerics at +57 and sorcerers at +50 base. But outside of the rift, many sorcerers are closer to +70 because of scroll infusion.

[Fallen]

You are placing a higher stock in blessing lore than most newly capped clerics - most I spoke to had 10 -20 ranks. The lore overall is still pretty crappy unless one group hunts or MAs enough to make it worthwhile. That would place clerics at +57 and sorcerers at +50 base. But outside of the rift, many sorcerers are closer to +70 because of scroll infusion.

If we're just handing out outside spells I am sure any bolting cleric will get their hands on 513, a very common spell. I left out outside spells for a reason. This was never about Sorcerers vs everyone else. It was a comparison of bolt AS garnered from a profession's own spells and lores. Further, I would hardly call your build standard. Regardless, it sounds like Clerics aren't seeing any aid for bolt AS any time soon.

[Asha]

After awesome spells are designed for one profession and not any other, there should be fixskills, re-stats, and professional reallocation.

[Rathain]

If we're just handing out outside spells I am sure any bolting cleric will get their hands on 513, a very common spell. I left out outside spells for a reason. This was never about Sorcerers vs everyone else. It was a comparison of bolt AS garnered from a profession's own spells and lores. Further, I would hardly call your build standard. Regardless, it sounds like Clerics aren't seeing any aid for bolt AS any time soon.

I would say scroll infusion is very much a part of a profession's repertoire. It allows for more sustained usage than draining a 513 scroll in the typical fashion. How many sorcerers use scroll infusion really isn't any different from how training augments other pure defenses.

But yeah - I don't think they will change it either. I remember Ceyrin's player posting this about 2 years ago. The gist of the explanation for the Bolt AS difference were the potency of CS spells. That being, they felt clerics and sorcerers had more effective CS options than either empaths or wizards. With the recent updates to empaths, i guess the dev team still believes that is accurate.

A lot of clerics have comparable builds and my cleric isn't all that different. The prototypical build is heavy on the spells, medium to light on the lores, and tanked spell aiming. People choose what works.

[Fallen]

I doubt even staff has the balls to point to the massive amount of upkeep and expense which is Scroll Infusion every time an issue of sorcerer balance comes up. That is like saying a Wizard doesn't need a new maneuver spell because they have Meteor swarm. They're good to go.

[Izzy]

Rofl @ the profession envy. Jealousy is not a pretty face, yo.

How does it affect you (general you, not specifying this rant at anyone in particular) in ANY way whatsoever if profession X is better at something than you? If you can't do something as well, either find the gear to augment yourself, or face the fact that you just aren't going to be able to match up in that regard and stfu.

Cry more about empaths being overpowered. They're amazing at hunting and have an incredible side source of exp. So fucking what? Roll an empath if you're so damned butt hurt. Otherwise enjoy what your profession DOES have to offer and stop being a greedy "but he's better at x,y,x" bitch. You have a choice as to what profession you are, and you know what pros and cons are associated with that choice. Same goes for race. You chose it, deal with the consequences.

/rant

[Ignot]

Rofl @ the profession envy. Jealousy is not a pretty face, yo.

How does it affect you (general you, not specifying this rant at anyone in particular) in ANY way whatsoever if profession X is better at something than you? If you can't do something as well, either find the gear to augment yourself, or face the fact that you just aren't going to be able to match up in that regard and stfu.

Cry more about empaths being overpowered. They're amazing at hunting and have an incredible side source of exp. So fucking what? Roll an empath if you're so damned butt hurt. Otherwise enjoy what your profession DOES have to offer and stop being a greedy "but he's better at x,y,x" bitch. You have a choice as to what profession you are, and you know what pros and cons are associated with that choice. Same goes for race. You chose it, deal with the consequences.

/rant

So you wouldn't see a problem if say, wizards could swing with max AS 700 and warriors with max AS 100? I know that's extreme but it's ass backwards. I think that's the point. I didn't read anything about jealousy or profession envy.

[Asha]

Izzy, you should shut the fuck up.
Capped sorcerers were rolled a long time ago when they were masters of kicking the shit out of stuff.
Since then Empaths have grown insanely in power due to a dedicated DEV team. So in all fairness, the players who've spent so long trying to master the Sorcery profession who get to watch Empaths sail by in power, have every right to complain.

Capped Empaths weren't as strong hunters when they first rolled. Infact they had to swing and use unbalance.
They've been given too much. And I seriously think with that much of a change to unbalance power and exp gain tactics within the game, everyone should have been allowed a professional re-allocation.
I'd choose Empath, the new sorcerer.

[Some Rogue]

And as a rogue, I used to one shot kill everything...

THINGS FUCKING CHANGE. ADAPT OR GTFO.

[Some Rogue]

Dey Turk mah jerrrb!

[StrayRogue]

Izzy, you should shut the fuck up.
Capped sorcerers were rolled a long time ago when they were masters of kicking the shit out of stuff.
Since then Empaths have grown insanely in power due to a dedicated DEV team. So in all fairness, the players who've spent so long trying to master the Sorcery profession who get to watch Empaths sail by in power, have every right to complain.

Capped Empaths weren't as strong hunters when they first rolled. Infact they had to swing and use unbalance.
They've been given too much. And I seriously think with that much of a change to unbalance power and exp gain tactics within the game, everyone should have been allowed a professional re-allocation.
I'd choose Empath, the new sorcerer.

lol
Someone didn't play empath before Boneshatter. Prior to that and GS4 you levelled an empath one of three ways: You sat and healed. You trained in ambush like 75% of the rest of the game. You Unbalanced everything.

Sorcerers had it WAY too easy for WAY too long. They had the huge CS, the unbreakable DS. They have a wider variety of spells than anyone (even now).

So what you don't have a comprable bolt AS. Tough shit. Empaths don't have four maneuver-based, open-castable kill-em-all spells.

Why not stop fucking shouting for nerfs from another decent class and think of ways to buff your own? Or better yet realize you have it pretty decent and gtfo?

[Fallen]

lol
Someone didn't play empath before Boneshatter. Prior to that and GS4 you levelled an empath one of three ways: You sat and healed. You trained in ambush like 75% of the rest of the game. You Unbalanced everything.

Sorcerers had it WAY too easy for WAY too long. They had the huge CS, the unbreakable DS. They have a wider variety of spells than anyone (even now).

So what you don't have a comprable bolt AS. Tough shit. Empaths don't have four maneuver-based, open-castable kill-em-all spells.

Why not stop fucking shouting for nerfs from another decent class and think of ways to buff your own? Or better yet realize you have it pretty decent and gtfo?

The standpoint of this post was to ascertain whether or not the descrepency in Bolt AS between the pure professions warrants an increase in what is allowed for future dev. The numbers prove that receiving close too double what several of the pure professions have now is acceptable in terms of game balance.

Therefore, should any sorcerer spell come up, it should be designed with the standpoint that there IS more Bolt AS to be had, whether it involves a DS pushdown, AS increase, or any other wacky means of equaling things out. The bad news is clerics aren't going to get any help in this department. Oscuro notes the glaring gap in producable bolt AS and has decided that nothing should be done about it. Why? Who knows.

I highly doubt that any CURRENT balance concerns are based around shit that happened in GS3. You will never see me use this argument because I think it is silly. It was a different game back then. You look at the current environment when you're designing new spells, not DEV 5-10 years agol.

[StrayRogue]

Why not look into AS/DS discrepencies between all the classes then. I know I had a much lower DS than pures as a rogue, and a lower DS than warriors. Compared to Paladins and Bards, much lower.

It's apples and oranges. You can setup monsters to be bolted MUCH easier than an empath, hence the need for a higher bolt AS, just like I don't necessarily need a high AS thanks to ambushing.

If you're seriously advocation a rounding of all AS, why not extend it to CS, to DS, to TD? It's just as retarded and will make the game all the more mediocre and samey.

[Belnia]

Point of Order: Clerics require a minimum of 10 blessing ranks to be able to make chrism gems which everyone yells for. 10 ranks yields the base 50% experience retention. 25 ranks will get 75% experience retention, while 100% takes 65 ranks.

That being said, I really don't see a reason why sorcerers need another bolt AS booster. I guess I will consider them the rangers of the pure profession in a way. Rangers have a whopping 10 sustainable AS, compared to the large amounts bards and paladins get in the semi classes. Rangers work by bringing down target DS and then using their normalish AS to kill it. I feel the same applies to sorcerers, as they have a wide variety of debilitating spells. Limb disrupt a leg to reduce bolt DS, etc.

Is it a super duper 1 cast kill efficient way to hunt? No, that was DC circa 1997. Does it work? Pretty well before cap, not great in swarms, but it does work. Play to the disabling spells you've got available, you don't need a 1000 bolt AS to kill something standing up.

[StrayRogue]

Point of Order: Clerics require a minimum of 10 blessing ranks to be able to make chrism gems which everyone yells for. 10 ranks yields the base 50% experience retention. 25 ranks will get 75% experience retention, while 100% takes 65 ranks.

That being said, I really don't see a reason why sorcerers need another bolt AS booster. I guess I will consider them the rangers of the pure profession in a way. Rangers have a whopping 10 sustainable AS, compared to the large amounts bards and paladins get in the semi classes. Rangers work by bringing down target DS and then using their normalish AS to kill it. I feel the same applies to sorcerers, as they have a wide variety of debilitating spells. Limb disrupt a leg to reduce bolt DS, etc.

Is it a super duper 1 cast kill efficient way to hunt? No, that was DC circa 1997. Does it work? Pretty well before cap, not great in swarms, but it does work. Play to the disabling spells you've got available, you don't need a 1000 bolt AS to kill something standing up.

Win.
Why limb disrupt? Ewave them down. Thats what -50 DS already. 50 less AS you need to match an empath.

[Izzy]

Izzy, you should shut the fuck up.
Capped sorcerers were rolled a long time ago when they were masters of kicking the shit out of stuff.
Since then Empaths have grown insanely in power due to a dedicated DEV team. So in all fairness, the players who've spent so long trying to master the Sorcery profession who get to watch Empaths sail by in power, have every right to complain.

Capped Empaths weren't as strong hunters when they first rolled. Infact they had to swing and use unbalance.
They've been given too much. And I seriously think with that much of a change to unbalance power and exp gain tactics within the game, everyone should have been allowed a professional re-allocation.
I'd choose Empath, the new sorcerer.

So because empaths are fucking sweet hunters, your sorcerer is suddenly completely incapable of hunting well? Perhaps empaths are "too strong" now, but that does not affect your character in any way. The only thing you have any legitimate claim to complain about is the sorcerer nerfs. Other professions performance has exactly zero affect on your character. Zomg, sorcerers aren't the greatest hunters ever now?!?!?one! gtf over it, and take advantage of what you do excel at.

I don't care to go into the 100 things that sorcerers do better than empaths, just like I don't care to go into the 100 things that empaths do better than rangers. Why? Because it makes no goddamn difference. If you had a legitimate reason to want more bolt AS, irrespective of what other classes have, then maybe you'd have a point. But you don't, you're just pulling the "but why do they get to do it better?" card, which is bullshit.

[TheWitch]

Let me preface this by saying:

I don't think sorcerers need more bolt AS. We have sufficient disablers, CS spells, maneuver spells, and 714. All of that combined, no, our AS is not an issue. I also don't think empaths need nerfing. Neither does Evarin, he's said that repeatedly.

The issue for long time players of sorcerers, Izzy et al, isn't that empaths kick ass. It isn't that we don't kick ass. We do, so do they, it's all good.

There are a couple things at issue:

When sorcerers were nerfed, and then rebuilt, we were told certain things like attrition based combat and components were going to be the "wave of the future." This turned out to be largely nothing but bullshit - except as applied to sorcerers.

So, design decisions were applied to sorcerers that were not applied to any other profession. This is all "punishment" for being grossly overpowered - which pretty much all of us will admit, we were.

No one's looking for nerfage. We're looking at everything, because we have someone actually working on the profession now, and trying to understand if there is:

A. a method to what may appear to be madness, which in this case it appears there is.
Or
B. No method to the madness and it's an area we could push for improvements to sorcerery.

We're not GM's. We're also not players of warriors or bards when we have these discussions. If you can't understand the approach to these issues requires understanding the issue first, then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

[Fallen]

Why not look into AS/DS discrepencies between all the classes then. I know I had a much lower DS than pures as a rogue, and a lower DS than warriors. Compared to Paladins and Bards, much lower.

It's apples and oranges. You can setup monsters to be bolted MUCH easier than an empath, hence the need for a higher bolt AS, just like I don't necessarily need a high AS thanks to ambushing.

If you're seriously advocation a rounding of all AS, why not extend it to CS, to DS, to TD? It's just as retarded and will make the game all the more mediocre and samey.

I am not concerned with AS/DS discrepencies with non-pure classes. There are far better people than I to run such numbers, and frankly I haven't the desire. I certainly wouldn't say the research would be a waste of time. IMO there are some glaring inconsistencies between the Rogue and Warrior classes in terms of training and available skills.

As to the matter of why the difference between bolt AS is important, it is a question of context. The original thread on the Officials where I attempted my math was in regards to clerics asking for more AS for Holy Bolt. I would say a glance at what other pures can put up in terms of Bolt AS is quite relevant when asking for an increase to your own output.

Finally, with CS, they (The GMs) have already balanced this to an extent with having variable TD's. Each circle faces its own TD checks. 3 different professions could cast their comparable level spells at a creature and receive 3 different TDs. Such is not the case with Bolt AS. There is only 1 form of it regardless of who casts the spell.

[StrayRogue]

I am not concerned with AS/DS discrepencies with non-pure classes. There are far better people than I to run such numbers, and frankly I haven't the desire. I certainly wouldn't say the research would be a waste of time. IMO there are some glaring inconsistencies between the Rogue and Warrior classes in terms of training and available skills.

As to the matter of why the difference between bolt AS is important, it is a question of context. The original thread on the Officials where I attempted my math was in regards to clerics asking for more AS for Holy Bolt. I would say a glance at what other pures can put up in terms of Bolt AS is quite relevant when asking for an increase to your own output.

Finally, with CS, they (The GMs) have already balanced this to an extent with having variable TD's. Each circle faces its own TD checks. 3 different professions could cast their comparable level spells at a creature and receive 3 different TDs. Such is not the case with Bolt AS. There is only 1 form of it regardless of who casts the spell.

You totally missed the point entirely.

[BigWorm]

Why is it that every mechanics discussion involving sorcery inevitably devolves into sorcerer players freaking out and basically complaining that they can't kill everything with one cast of DC?

[StrayRogue]

Because Jesus hates Sorcs apparently (despite them being the easiest class to play).

[Fallen]

My only concern with sorcerers in terms of Bolt AS is any future bolt spells being added to the Sorcerer circle. Such a thing coming to pass is IMO a high probability. As I mentioned before I believe Disease could/should be made into a bolt spell. However, if this is the case then a sorcerers ability to generate enough Bolt AS to strike a creature is important. Yes, we can disable a creature first to lower its DS, but if you can ward a creature sufficiently to disable it, why bolt it?

That leaves spells like Quake or Elemental Wave. Use of these spells are certainly effective, even when uphunting, but one must then start examining mana costs. If you are spending 9-10 mana to bring the creature within range to be struck, then another 16 mana to cast the bolt spell, the cost begins to outweigh the benefit for casting. One solution to this problem is to grant sorcerers another means to raise their AS. Another, and in my opinion more favorable option is to give the spell itself a means to lower the target's defense, or raise the sorcerer's AS for this one means of attack in order to strike its target.

[Fallen]

You totally missed the point entirely.

I hope I addressed your point in my second post. If not, then I would ask that you restate it. I don't mind a discussion on the matter as so long as it doesn't devolve into petty insults. That isn't directed towards you specifically, just towards the general direction the thread seems to be heading.

[StrayRogue]

Bolt DS is already insanely low on most creatures without shields. So basically you want a spell where you don't even have to prepare (as in setup the monster - something most squares have to do) - you just cast and kill? Stance off, cast? Doesn't 702/705/719/720 fit that bill already? You want it even EASIER?

[CrystalTears]

That leaves spells like Quake or Elemental Wave. Use of these spells are certainly effective, even when uphunting, but one must then start examining mana costs. If you are spending 9-10 mana to bring the creature within range to be struck, then another 16 mana to cast the bolt spell, the cost begins to outweigh the benefit for casting. One solution to this problem is to grant sorcerers another means to raise their AS. Another, and in my opinion more favorable option is to give the spell itself a means to lower the target's defense, or raise the sorcerer's AS for this one means of attack in order to strike its target.
Don't most professions have to take considerations into what they cast, what they hunt, and use strategies once in a while to see what works best? With all the spells you currently have, why would (should) you get another bolt spell that also either lowers their DS or raise your AS?

[Fallen]

Bolt DS is already insanely low on most creatures without shields. So basically you want a spell where you don't even have to prepare - you just cast and kill? Stance off, cast? Doesn't 702/705/719/720 fit that bill already? You want it even EASIER?

Was the idea to give empaths such a spell when they balanced their bolt AS? Of course not. A bolt attack is most usually useful when attempting to overcome a creature's defenses from an alternative angle. For example, when uphunting, or facing creatures during an invasion, creature's TDs may be beyond what can be warded. If that is the case, then you switch to a bolt spell to strike the creature.

[Fallen]

Don't most professions have to take considerations into what they cast, what they hunt, and use strategies once in a while to see what works best? With all the spells you currently have, why would (should) you get another bolt spell that also either lowers their DS or raise your AS?

All pure professions currently have a bolt spell in their primary spell circles. I believe for the reasons just mentioned in my response to Strayrogue why I think one would be useful to a sorcerer. Now, the question becomes why is it fine for a sorcerer to require disabling spells to lower a creature's Bolt DS when a profession with double the Bolt AS via spells does not? Where is the strategy there? An Empath just goes into offensive and casts, right? Or is it not that simple?

[CrystalTears]

An Empath just goes into offensive and casts, right? Or is it not that simple?Not always, no. Some creatures don't have bones to shatter. Some don't burn. Some don't wither. Some don't unbalance. Some just laugh at all your spells and you have to take out the SORCERER wands and hope that works or bleed it to death... if it has blood to drain in the first place.

Maybe some empaths are able to just cast and go, but it still depends on the creature and which spell will work on it.

[Fallen]

Not always, no. Some creatures don't have bones to shatter. Some don't burn. Some don't wither. Some don't unbalance. Some just laugh at all your spells and you have to take out the SORCERER wands and hope that works or bleed it to death... if it has blood to drain in the first place.

Maybe some empaths are able to just cast and go, but it still depends on the creature and which spell will work on it.

Which creatures don't wither?

[Some Rogue]

When sorcerers were nerfed, and then rebuilt, we were told certain things like attrition based combat and components were going to be the "wave of the future." This turned out to be largely nothing but bullshit - except as applied to sorcerers.


ROFL

You really believe that it only applies to sorcs? Come on. You have to be kidding.

[CrystalTears]

Which creatures don't wither?
I honestly can't remember which creatures they were right now off the top of my head, but there have been times when I've cast wither and it didn't do anything. Or it worked the first time and doesn't work after that. It has happened.

[StrayRogue]

Was the idea to give empaths such a spell when they balanced their bolt AS? Of course not. A bolt attack is most usually useful when attempting to overcome a creature's defenses from an alternative angle. For example, when uphunting, or facing creatures during an invasion, creature's TDs may be beyond what can be warded. If that is the case, then you switch to a bolt spell to strike the creature.

Sorry I would bet that Warden designs all spells and all abilities NOT on what might happen in an invasion or when a character is up hunting, but rather when he or she is hunting at her level.

The reason Empaths were given a bolt spell was because they already had one CS based nuking spell. Boneshatter - you know the one sorcerers whined about when it was released?

I imagine they wanted to add some flavour to the class (and add some variety to training - as everyone was a cookie cutter prior to 1110?'s release) and thus made the new one a bolt spell. By coinciding it's power with lores (the first spell to really do that), it created a template for other bolt spells to come (such as web).

You assume, as ever, that everyone who uses this spell is capped with max lores and spell aim. I tell you, at level 66 my empath sure as shit could not afford either the lores or the spell aiming to use 1110. It was either hunt/skin/heal like a god, or bolt and do the rest in a mediocre fashion. Try thinking about lower level characters and grounds - perhaps like when you had to cast the TD curse to be able to ward things, or ewave/LD to disable them. Get out of the single spell instant kill/stun mindset.

[Fallen]

Sorry I would bet that Warden designs all spells and all abilities NOT on what might happen in an invasion or when a character is up hunting, but rather when he or she is hunting at her level.

The reason Empaths were given a bolt spell was because they already had one CS based nuking spell. Boneshatter - you know the one sorcerers whined about when it was released?

I imagine they wanted to add some flavour to the class (and add some variety to training - as everyone was a cookie cutter prior to 1110?'s release) and thus made the new one a bolt spell. By coinciding it's power with lores (the first spell to really do that), it created a template for other bolt spells to come (such as web).

You assume, as ever, that everyone who uses this spell is capped with max lores and spell aim. I tell you, at level 66 my empath sure as shit could not afford either the lores or the spell aiming to use 1110. It was either hunt/skin/heal like a god, or bolt and do the rest in a mediocre fashion. Try thinking about lower level characters and grounds - perhaps like when you had to cast the TD curse to be able to ward things, or ewave/LD to disable them. Get out of the single spell instant kill/stun mindset.

A sorcerer, or a cleric for that matter, could be facing the same difficulties towards generating a high Bolt AS due to insufficient Spell Aiming. If anything, sorcerers not having a bolt spell in their primary circle would discourage heavy training in Spell aiming. Anyway, the point is moot as the AS gained from Spell Aiming is = across the board. Clerics might have to pay more for it, but they have other skills where they pay less than the other pure classes.

Diversification would be great for any class. I wouldn't mind having to train in tertiary skills to gain the ability to bolt better, if that is what you mean. Hell, I have 90 ranks of Summoning Lore just to play with my off-circle spells and bolt better. That is just for a tertiary spell. If Disease Bolt required that I trained in an Elemental lore to raise my Bolt AS, so be it. Oscuro did mention that E-lores might provide such an increase so something along those lines will be the case. Right now, however, there is nothing I can train in, nor is there anything a cleric can train in to raise their bolt AS. That isn't Diversification, that is a hard cap.

[StrayRogue]

Like people have posted, sorcerers do not require as high a bolt AS as empaths to compete with them. They have disabling abilities that more than level the playing field. If you don't like the fact you have to "prepare" a mob for killing well be grateful you played the single-button class of GS. Squares typically don't have it so easy. Neither do rangers, bards etc.

As for diversification - empaths were lucky in the respect that their entire spell list was more or less built around compatibility with lores. Mainly because the 800's was so fucked up, of course. They've gained the most directly from lore training, but it's been a long and tough road. Without lores an empath is gimped. You can't really say the same for a sorcerer or cleric or wizard.

[Fallen]

Like people have posted, sorcerers do not require as high a bolt AS as empaths to compete with them. They have disabling abilities that more than level the playing field. If you don't like the fact you have to "prepare" a mob for killing well be grateful you played the single-button class of GS. Squares typically don't have it so easy. Neither do rangers, bards etc.

As for diversification - empaths were lucky in the respect that their entire spell list was more or less built around compatibility with lores. Mainly because the 800's was so fucked up, of course. They've gained the most directly from lore training, but it's been a long and tough road. Without lores an empath is gimped. You can't really say the same for a sorcerer or cleric or wizard.

In terms of Diversification, no one can touch empaths. They are hands down the most diverse class in the game. You make a valid argument in saying that without lores they are weak, but who has absolutely no lores? It was stated by GMs that every pure is expected to be atleast 1x lores, and have been given the TPs via their costs to do just that. WITH their lores, they are able to have much more effective attack spells. A luxury sorcerers do not have. This, however, will be addressed with the sorcerer lore review which has been stated to take place after the completion of the Elemental Lore Review.

Whether or not you believe sorcerers "deserve" a bolt spell isn't something I care to debate. You would have to take it up with Strathspey, if and when he does code one. I return to my original point that because of the sorcerer's lack of ability to generate a large amount of bolt AS, any bolt spells designed for the sorcerer should have this fact taken into account. I imagine that instead of trying to generate a ton of damage from the initial strike with the Bolt, a Sorcerer's bolt would only use the Bolt AS/DS mechanics as a vehicle to overcome their opponents offenses and unleash a secondary damage effect. This concept is IMO in keeping with the feel of Disease. It starts small and grows into a much more serious issue.

[StrayRogue]

For the fourth time now, a sorcerer does not NEED a high bolt AS because they can disable a target much more capably than probably any other class. When will this sink in...?

[Fallen]

For the fourth time now, a sorcerer does not NEED a high bolt AS because they can disable a target much more capably than probably any other class. When will this sink in...?

Please point out in the above post where I was calling for one.

[CrystalTears]

I really don't care if they give sorcerers a bolt spell. What I can't comprehend is why that spell should also include a DS pusher or AS enhancer.

[Fallen]

I really don't care if they give sorcerers a bolt spell. What I can't comprehend is why that spell should also include a DS pusher or AS enhancer.

It comes back to cost. What should the spell provide for the cost of 16 mana per cast? Name me another bolt spell that expensive, or remotely close to it on a Profession level closed circle. You will find that bolt spells with that high of a mana cost attached to it come with tangible secondary benefits. If you have a suggestion for what aside from an AS boost or a DS pushdown it should provide I would enjoy hearing it. As I stated before, I was already thinking along those lines myself. Casting Disease bolt at a target isn't going to garner you a massive instant damage effect by endrolls alone. For one, it simply isn't possible due to a lack of the ability to generate a high Bolt AS.

[StrayRogue]

I really don't care if they give sorcerers a bolt spell. What I can't comprehend is why that spell should also include a DS pusher or AS enhancer.

Exactly.

I totally agree with your idea Fallen. Perhaps the bolt could do a little initial damage and greater "internal" or "putrification" damage afterwards (lore based).

However it makes the argument about bolt AS comparisons pretty pointless.

[Fallen]

Exactly.

I totally agree with your idea Fallen. Perhaps the bolt could do a little initial damage and greater "internal" or "putrification" damage afterwards (lore based).

However it makes the argument about bolt AS comparisons pretty pointless.

Well, my point in regards to Bolt AS was originally being made for Clerics. Lets face it, they're boned on this one. Holy Bolt blows for the slot it is taking up, and they aren't going to get the means to make it better any time soon.

[StrayRogue]

It comes back to cost. What should the spell provide for the cost of 16 mana per cast? Name me another bolt spell that expensive, or remotely close to it on a Profession level closed circle. You will find that bolt spells with that high of a mana cost attached to it come with tangible secondary benefits. If you have a suggestion for what aside from an AS boost or a DS pushdown it should provide I would enjoy hearing it. As I stated before, I was already thinking along those lines myself. Casting Disease bolt at a target isn't going to garner you a massive instant damage effect. For one, it simply isn't possible due to a lack of the ability to generate a high Bolt AS.

Again a pointless argument. Just because there isn't another bolt spell of that level, it does not mean that it should be super awesome. You could ask the same question over any number of spells/abilities.

What secondary tangible benefit do you want? It hits the fucking creature, it dies. What more do you want? Jesus, sorcerers enjoy one of the few high level spells that actually has a tangible secondary benefit, namely 719.

[StrayRogue]

Well, my point in regards to Bolt AS was originally being made for Clerics. Lets face it, they're boned on this one. Holy Bolt blows for the slot it is taking up, and they aren't going to get the means to make it better any time soon.

Could say the same for any number of abilities. What does this have to do with empaths being so overpowered?

[CrystalTears]

I totally agree with your idea Fallen. Perhaps the bolt could do a little initial damage and greater "internal" or "putrification" damage afterwards (lore based). That would be cool, actually. Just as long as the spell landed, it would just eat away at the creature.

[Fallen]

Could say the same for any number of abilities. What does this have to do with empaths being so overpowered?

Nothing. It was never my point to state that empaths were overpowered. My point was there is a very large gap in the amount of Bolt AS an empath can generate versus a cleric. Their lack of an ability to generate a high enough Bolt AS makes Holy Bolt a lackluster spell.

[StrayRogue]

Do empaths have an open castable instant damage spell? Base I might add.

[Danical]

I hate empaths.

:yeahthat:

I stopped reading after this.

(don't hate me CT)

[Izzy]

Nothing. It was never my point to state that empaths were overpowered. My point was there is a very large gap in the amount of Bolt AS an empath can generate versus a cleric. Their lack of an ability to generate a high enough Bolt AS makes Holy Bolt a lackluster spell.

Holy bolt does have the highest damage factor of any bolt spell (tied with 910) if I remember correctly. It's not lacking much, IMO.

[Fallen]

Again a pointless argument. Just because there isn't another bolt spell of that level, it does not mean that it should be super awesome. You could ask the same question over any number of spells/abilities.

How is it a pointless argument to want to see a 16th level spellslot be worth the mana it takes to cast? If your view held true there wouldn't be any reason to repair Disease as the spell stands now. It would be "good enough" without any "super awesome" effects. GMs Nilven and Strathspay have stated that Disease is lackluster due to its placement on the spell circle versus what it offers. Spells are constantly balanced around what they should be providing in terms of their cost. This phenomenon is not localized to the sorcerer profession by any means.



What secondary tangible benefit do you want? It hits the fucking creature, it dies. What more do you want? Jesus, sorcerers enjoy one of the few high level spells that actually has a tangible secondary benefit, namely 719.

My point is if it didn't have any tertiary benefits the fucking creature wouldn't die if it hits, to use your words. Just a few posts ago you said that the spell should not do a lot of damage. It should hit for a light amount of damage, then cause greater damage over time, or by another means. This is the commonly held idea for the spell.

[Fallen]

Do empaths have an open castable instant damage spell? Base I might add.

Do you mean maneuver based or otherwise?

[Fallen]

Holy bolt does have the highest damage factor of any bolt spell (tied with 910) if I remember correctly. It's not lacking much, IMO.

I've yet to meet a cleric who hunts with it. I'm not saying they don't exist. I would like to hear from one who uses it often in like-level situations.

[CrystalTears]

My point is if it didn't have any tertiary benefits the fucking creature wouldn't die if it hits, to use your words. Just a few posts ago you said that the spell should not do a lot of damage. It should hit for a light amount of damage, then cause greater damage over time, or by another means. This is the commonly held idea for the spell.And if that's the case, the AS doesn't need to be really high, it just needs to high enough to land and the spell will do the rest.

[CrystalTears]

I've yet to meet a cleric who hunts with it. I'm not saying they don't exist. I would like to hear from one who uses it often in like-level situations.
Meh, my cleric is only level 12 so a bad example, but I use it all the time as a final kill. :shrug:

[Fallen]

And if that's the case, the AS doesn't need to be really high, it just needs to high enough to land and the spell will do the rest.

That's the idea. However, this is not the idea with Holy Bolt, which was the impetus of this whole discussion. The Sorcerer aspect simply was lumped into it because of the profession I favor. If a wizard posted this same research I imagine the discussion would have went in a different direction.

[StrayRogue]

I didn't say that the spell should do anything. I found an idea "cool". At the end of the day disease will never work simply because the entire concept of a disease is that of a slow and painful death - something so pointless in an MMO.

No amount of AS boosting or DS reduction will ever aid this.

And as far as I remember No empaths do not have any AoE spells worth shit (beyond stuff like silence/web). Compare this to a wizard, sorc, even a cleric. The point is some classes are good at some things, and not so good at others. Clerics can wtfpwn pretty much anything one and one, and do better in a swarm than an empath generally. They can't heal or bolt as well as the lowly puff though.

[CrystalTears]

I didn't say that the spell should do anything. I found an idea "cool". At the end of the day disease will never work simply because the entire concept of a disease is that of a slow and painful death - something so pointless in an MMO. That's true, I hadn't considered that. Unless the sorcerer intends to just cast disease on a whole mess of creatures then go back to town and wait for them to all die and suddenly fry.

[Fallen]

I didn't say that the spell should do anything. I found an idea "cool". At the end of the day disease will never work simply because the entire concept of a disease is that of a slow and painful death - something so pointless in an MMO. No amount of AS boosting or DS reduction will ever aid this.

My idea for the spell would be one with multiple uses, like Web. It would have a much improved CS based version, but the bolt based version would strike for a low DF damage result. Something comparable to Unbalance. However, when it struck it would cause the target immediate hard RT due to a coughing fit brought on by the noxious nature of the Disease bolt. The resulting effects would depend upon what the CS based version of the spell does. Creatures that don't breath would obviously be immune.

[Fallen]

That's true, I hadn't considered that. Unless the sorcerer intends to just cast disease on a whole mess of creatures then go back to town and wait for them to all die and suddenly fry.

That's a no-go. They put a stop to that a long time ago. People would try that with Blood Burst and Disease. You must now remain in the hunting ground to receive EXP for a kill.

[BigWorm]

I think if the disease effects are disabling so that the creature is on the ground and/or stunned for a lot its duration it could work. I mean, it wouldn't be a sorcerer spell if it wasn't a disabler.

[CrystalTears]

I think if the disease effects are disabling so that the creature is on the ground and/or stunned for a lot its duration it could work. I mean, it wouldn't be a sorcerer spell if it wasn't a disabler.
Agreed.

[Ryvicke]

Holy shit--as the original poster (or fucking whiner) of the near-uselessness of bolting for the cleric profession on the officials I can only say that this conversation is 100x better than the 10 posts that came after over there.

For instance, now I know that I am a fucking whiner--and should probably stfu and gtfo! This board is the shit.

Really though--I think sorcs/clerics just want to fucking bolt effectively. We're not saying, fuck empaths, we're just saying, give us some love, we wanna shoot at stuff and have it die with sweet messaging. No big deal.

[CrystalTears]

Really though--I think sorcs/clerics just want to fucking bolt effectively.I accept that for clerics. Sorcerers... not so much.
We're not saying, fuck empaths, we're just saying, give us some love, we wanna shoot at stuff and have it die with sweet messaging. No big deal.Sorcerers already do with what they have.

Just saying.

[Danical]

Necrosis Bolt


DF/AvD ~ 903. Relatively weak. Disintegration crit table.
Upon striking the target, the target is diseased; every 3 seconds the target will experience a "disease" crit cycle.
A "disease" crit cycle works as follows: the location of the initial strike, and all adjacent locations, suffers a Disintegration CRITICAL equal to the current WOUND Rank +1. Note: A WOUND rank generally has 3 CRITICAL ranks associated with it.
The Disintegration CRITICAL from disease cycles will generally be on the lower end of the range of CRITICAL ranks associated with the WOUND rank.
Training in Necromancy Lore increases the chance to get a moderate or high end Disintegration CRITICAL within the range of the WOUND rank.
Training in Necromancy Lore increases the DF of the spell by 1% by Seed 1.
You may CHANNEL at a target already afflicted by the Disease to induce another Disease Crit Cycle.
Upon death, the creature automatically decays, leaving behind treasure, trinkets, and/or gems as if searched.


Example: Creature in Brig

You hurl a caliginous mass trailed by wildly lashing tails at you!
AS: +327 vs DS: +200 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +50 = 200
You hit!
<28 raw damage which translates to a rank 4 CRITICAL and Rank 2 WOUND (i think) on brig; let's say it hit the chest>
The caliginous tails furiously borrow into you!

<3 seconds later>

Your body is wracked by massive pain as widespread degeneration occurs!
<insert Rank 3 chest WOUND resulting in rank 7-9 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 neck Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 abdomen Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 back Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left arm Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right arm Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>

<3 seconds later>

Your body is wracked by massive pain as widespread degeneration occurs!
<insert Rank 3 chest WOUND resulting in rank 7-9 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 neck WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 abdomen WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 back WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 left arm WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 right arm WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right leg WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left leg WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left hand WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right hand WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 head WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left eye WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right eye WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>

NOTE: Most of those Rank 1 WOUNDS would generally be Rank 1 CRITICALS which is generally 3-5 damage.

[BigWorm]

Dammit why can't they just make you a GM and put you in charge of rogue development?

[TheWitch]

We DO NOT need another DOT.

I'm against 716 even being changed, if all it's going to be is DOT still.

DOT is bullshit.

[Danical]

We DO NOT need another DOT.

I'm against 716 even being changed, if all it's going to be is DOT still.

DOT is bullshit.

DOTs are bullshit in a crit system like GS.

It's a good thing my proposal wasn't purely a DOT.

[Danical]

Dammit why can't they just make you a GM and put you in charge of rogue development?

I don't know how to code :(

[Fallen]

I don't have a problem with DOT spells when they effectively disable the target. If Disease put the creature in RT, kept them in RT, and then eventually killed them I can put it to use. Especially once you factor in the Contagion aspect of the spell. Creatures of a like type face a pushdown when attempting to ward off the infected creature's disease, and creatures of a differing kind get a TD benefit. Necro lore lessens the TD benefit and increases the TD pushdown. Necro lore would also effect the amount of RT given upon the initial strike of the spell.

[Danical]

The point of my idea was to simulate widespread necrosis; the Crits would disable the creature in very short order.

I could see giving UP TO 3 seconds of RT on the initial strike as the tails burrow into the target.

But, another thing to consider is that Necrosis Bolt is a guaranteed death sentence. It might only take 1 cycle (if it hits a vital location) or a few more but at some point the creature will absolutely die.

Additionally, all the penalties associated with many injuries, even only Rank 1 Wounds, to many locations would severely wreck the creature's effectiveness.

[StrayRogue]

The point of my idea was to simulate widespread necrosis; the Crits would disable the creature in very short order.

I could see giving UP TO 3 seconds of RT on the initial strike as the tails burrow into the target.

But, another thing to consider is that Necrosis Bolt is a guaranteed death sentence. It might only take 1 cycle (if it hits a vital location) or a few more but at some point the creature will absolutely die.

Additionally, all the penalties associated with many injuries, even only Rank 1 Wounds, to many locations would severely wreck the creature's effectiveness.

My version of Disease would be a Warding. Causes damage over time yadda yadda yadda. Upon death, however, the body explodes showering the disease over other nearby targets, causing acid damage and infecting them.

Or something like that. I do think it should cause something special upon death that effects other monsters. Maybe blood maggots (ala death knights) rip from the body and attack a nearest mob.

[Danical]

I thought about that in my idea but I couldn't really rationalize (lulz @ rationalize) why the body would "explode" and infect nearby creatures.

It would be a sort of corpse explosion a la Necros in Diablo2.

[Fallen]

Disease should definitely be designed around crowd control. If we could choose when we wished to detonate the corpse and have the room face an RT check along with the disease chance that could be viable. We had a similar idea for turning basically all corpses into flesh bombs. Should the sorcerer become stunned...BOOM.

[StrayRogue]

You could disease your own animate...
Or yourself.

[Danical]

I guess if necro lore speeds up the rate of necrosis then it could similarly speed up the rate of decomposition and specifically, "After the body goes through the bloating stage it begins the black putrefaction stage. At this point the body cavity ruptures, the abdominal gases escape and the body darkens from its greenish color."

So, yeah, I'll modify my idea to include a corpse explosion type of deal.

[Danical]

Disease should definitely be designed around crowd control. If we could choose when we wished to detonate the corpse and have the room face an RT check along with the disease chance that could be viable. We had a similar idea for turning basically all corpses into flesh bombs. Should the sorcerer become stunned...BOOM.

http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/skills/necromancer-poison.shtml#corpseexplosion

[Danical]

Necrosis Bolt


DF/AvD ~ 903. Relatively weak. Disintegration crit table.
Upon striking the target, the target is diseased; every 3 seconds the target will experience a "disease" crit cycle.
A "disease" crit cycle works as follows: the location of the initial strike, and all adjacent locations, suffers a Disintegration CRITICAL equal to the current WOUND Rank +1. Note: A WOUND rank generally has 3 CRITICAL ranks associated with it.
The Disintegration CRITICAL from disease cycles will generally be on the lower end of the range of CRITICAL ranks associated with the WOUND rank.
Training in Necromancy Lore increases the chance to get a moderate or high end Disintegration CRITICAL within the range of the WOUND rank.
Training in Necromancy Lore increases the DF of the spell by 1% by Seed 1.
You may CHANNEL at a target already afflicted by the Disease to induce another Disease Crit Cycle.
Upon the creature's death, the abdomen bloats and explodes releasing a putrid gas cloud putting all other creatures in the room into RT (kind of like the fog beetle maneuver). The dead creature automatically decays, leaving behind treasure, trinkets, and/or gems as if searched.
The explosion also hits other creatures in the room with the diseased remnants of the killed creature. This causes a low to moderate impact critical and diseases the creature thereby causing disease cycles on the newly infected creature starting with an initial location where the impact critical hit.
If an already infected creature is hit by the "disease explosion" then said creature takes an immediate "disease" crit cycle.


Example: Creature in Brig

You hurl a caliginous mass trailed by wildly lashing tails at you!
AS: +327 vs DS: +200 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +50 = 200
You hit!
<28 raw damage which translates to a rank 4 CRITICAL and Rank 2 WOUND (i think) on brig; let's say it hit the chest>
The caliginous tails furiously borrow into you!

<3 seconds later>

Your body is wracked by massive pain as widespread degeneration occurs!
<insert Rank 3 chest WOUND resulting in rank 7-9 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 neck Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 abdomen Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 back Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left arm Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right arm Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>

<3 seconds later>

Your body is wracked by massive pain as widespread degeneration occurs!
<insert Rank 3 chest WOUND resulting in rank 7-9 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 neck WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 abdomen WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 back WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 left arm WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 right arm WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right leg WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left leg WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left hand WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right hand WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 head WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left eye WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right eye WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>

NOTE: Most of those Rank 1 WOUNDS would generally be Rank 1 CRITICALS which is generally 3-5 damage.

Since the remaining creatures in the room will most likely be in RT, at least 1 and probably 2 or 3 cycles will occur. If those creatures die, well, it's a safe bet everything in the room will be infected and die in short order.

[DwarvenTank]

Necrosis Bolt


DF/AvD ~ 903. Relatively weak. Disintegration crit table.
Upon striking the target, the target is diseased; every 3 seconds the target will experience a "disease" crit cycle.
A "disease" crit cycle works as follows: the location of the initial strike, and all adjacent locations, suffers a Disintegration CRITICAL equal to the current WOUND Rank +1. Note: A WOUND rank generally has 3 CRITICAL ranks associated with it.
The Disintegration CRITICAL from disease cycles will generally be on the lower end of the range of CRITICAL ranks associated with the WOUND rank.
Training in Necromancy Lore increases the chance to get a moderate or high end Disintegration CRITICAL within the range of the WOUND rank.
Training in Necromancy Lore increases the DF of the spell by 1% by Seed 1.
You may CHANNEL at a target already afflicted by the Disease to induce another Disease Crit Cycle.
Upon death, the creature automatically decays, leaving behind treasure, trinkets, and/or gems as if searched.


Example: Creature in Brig

You hurl a caliginous mass trailed by wildly lashing tails at you!
AS: +327 vs DS: +200 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +50 = 200
You hit!
<28 raw damage which translates to a rank 4 CRITICAL and Rank 2 WOUND (i think) on brig; let's say it hit the chest>
The caliginous tails furiously borrow into you!

<3 seconds later>

Your body is wracked by massive pain as widespread degeneration occurs!
<insert Rank 3 chest WOUND resulting in rank 7-9 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 neck Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 abdomen Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 back Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left arm Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right arm Wound resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>

<3 seconds later>

Your body is wracked by massive pain as widespread degeneration occurs!
<insert Rank 3 chest WOUND resulting in rank 7-9 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 neck WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 abdomen WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 back WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 left arm WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 2 right arm WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right leg WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left leg WOUND resulting in rank 4-6 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left hand WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right hand WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 head WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 left eye WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>
<insert Rank 1 right eye WOUND resulting in rank 1-3 (i think?) CRITICAL.>

NOTE: Most of those Rank 1 WOUNDS would generally be Rank 1 CRITICALS which is generally 3-5 damage.

I like this Idea, but at the same time I think it has to be limited on cycles based on lore training, say max of 3 each causing RT type effects like coughing fits, and not an auto death sentence. Maybe have undisease stop the extra cycles.

The reason it shouldn't be a death sentence is if this spell is developed then creatures will surely get it and squares don't need another oh crap I got hit with a 101 endroll now I'm doooooooomed!!!! spell to deal with. Also I'm skeptical about having the wounds stack causing 2-3's to your whole body ending your hunt every time you get tapped with a bolt spell, which happens regularly as a two handed weapon swinger, though I could live with the stacking wounds over a guaranteed death.

[Danical]

oh, snap, I didn't think about creatures casting it.

That's a good point. I'll think about it some more later, I've got work to do :(

[Danical]

I had this huge fucking thing all typed up and my computer fucks my day up.

I'm not retyping the flowery text. This fucking spell does this fucking shit.

Necrosis Bolt v2.0

Desc: summon an caliginous orb of living disease with wildly lashing appendages.


8 motherfucking mana.
DF/AvD ~ 903. Relatively weak. Disintegration crit table.
CHANNEL - Increases number of orbs by god damn 1. Summoning Lore increases this chance by 1% per rank (e.g., 202 Summoning lore gets you 4 total orbs with 2% chance to get a 5th). Additional orbs cost 4 additional mana reduced by 1 mana per 20 elemental or spiritual lore ranks. I choose CHANNEL to amplify the spell so creatures wouldn't fuck up asshole characters.
May CHANNEL <target> or CHANNEL w/o target. If targeted, all orbs attack a single target, otherwise all orbs attack randomly assigned creatures in the room. If more orbs than creatures, "spillover" orbs attack another random creature. If an orb kills a creature and a "spillover" orb was assigned to that creature, the orb reassigns to another creature.
If hit, the creature is infected. Infections don't stack. Infection slows creature by 2 seconds + cumulative 1 second per 3% Necro Lore. Creature suffers base 15% vulnerability to ALL damage types + 1% Necro Lore on Seed 1.
Summoning Lore increases AvD of orbs by 1 per Seed 1.
Necro Lore increases DF by 1% per Seed 1.


That is my fucking spell. It's like a weird Judgment/Mstrike/Slowing/Setup/Attack Spell. You can bet with Vulnerability to damage you'll either fuck up a single creature easily or set up a bunch for massive pwnage.

Fuck yeah.

[Izzy]

I had this huge fucking thing all typed up and my computer fucks my day up.

I'm not retyping the flowery text. This fucking spell does this fucking shit.

Necrosis Bolt v2.0

Desc: summon an caliginous orb of living disease with wildly lashing appendages.


8 motherfucking mana.
DF/AvD ~ 903. Relatively weak. Disintegration crit table.
CHANNEL - Increases number of orbs by god damn 1. Summoning Lore increases this chance by 1% per rank (e.g., 202 Summoning lore gets you 4 total orbs with 2% chance to get a 5th). Additional orbs cost 4 additional mana reduced by 1 mana per 20 elemental or spiritual lore ranks. I choose CHANNEL to amplify the spell so creatures wouldn't fuck up asshole characters.
May CHANNEL <target> or CHANNEL w/o target. If targeted, all orbs attack a single target, otherwise all orbs attack randomly assigned creatures in the room. If more orbs than creatures, "spillover" orbs attack another random creature. If an orb kills a creature and a "spillover" orb was assigned to that creature, the orb reassigns to another creature.
If hit, the creature is infected. Infections don't stack. Infection slows creature by 2 seconds + cumulative 1 second per 3% Necro Lore. Creature suffers base 15% vulnerability to ALL damage types + 1% Necro Lore on Seed 1.
Summoning Lore increases AvD of orbs by 1 per Seed 1.
Necro Lore increases DF by 1% per Seed 1.


That is my fucking spell. It's like a weird Judgment/Mstrike/Slowing/Setup/Attack Spell. You can bet with Vulnerability to damage you'll either fuck up a single creature easily or set up a bunch for massive pwnage.

Fuck yeah.

I like it. But sorcerers are already op, give it to empaths ;)

[Fallen]

They already have a spell like this. Disintegrate X 3, or Wither.

[Izzy]

They already have a spell like this. Disintegrate X 3, or Wither.

Oops, someone missed the ;) at the end.

[Danical]

They already have a spell like this. Disintegrate X 3, or Wither.

No spell in the game imparts vulnerabilities and can "mstrike" a target. How rad would that be?!

[Fallen]

No spell in the game imparts vulnerabilities and can "mstrike" a target. How rad would that be?!

Wither M-strikes a creature's body part until it is gone, then starts in somewhere else. You could also say Empathic Assault has an M-strike feature as it hits over and over in cycles.

[CrystalTears]

Wither M-strikes a creature's body part until it is gone, then starts in somewhere else. You could also say Empathic Assault has an M-strike feature as it hits over and over in cycles.
With a shitload of lore.

[Danical]

That's like saying DC is a 4-tap Mstrike or BS is a 2 tap Mstrike but they aren't because the bulk of their damage and effectiveness comes from crit damage. This idea, you can hit the target 2-5 times and pwn it for decent raw damage (especially after you attached the first vulnerability) and crit damage each time!

Also, can you hit multiple targets with those other spells???????????????????????????????????????????? ????

[Danical]

I have posted my idea in the Sorc folder.

I anticipate a WTFOMFGURSTUPID!!!!

[Celephais]

Oh! I know, make disease like the opposite of spell store, when infected with the disease, spells you prepare only stay prepared half as long! Talk about amazing utility.

[BigWorm]

Oh! I know, make disease like the opposite of spell store, when infected with the disease, spells you prepare only stay prepared half as long! Talk about amazing utility.

Yeah and double the prep RT!

[LMingrone]

Empaths have always been the easiest to level. Who was that girl that was something like level 350?

[CrystalTears]

Empaths have always been the easiest to level. Who was that girl that was something like level 350?
Angellisa.

[TheLastShamurai]

This is from Dragonrealms, its something thats been suggested/associated with the Necromancer profession over there...


Bloodstorm
Such a dangerous spell even in the hands of the well trained, Bloodstorm combines the blazing ferocity of Elemental mana with Life magic in a nearly uncontrollable frenzy of acidic destruction. This magic requires blood to power it, so if the caster does not have a fresh, bleeding wound, he should have a dagger or other light blade in his right hand. Once begun, the Bloodstorm can easily spread. As such, it is very much against the law to be seen casting this spell. Requirements: 20th Circle, Blood Shield

Basically the idea was that the storm would be created/feed off blood. The storm would cause "acidic destruction" to anything it came into contact with (making more bleeders to feed off of) and continue to get larger and spread about the area like a plague.

[Warriorbird]

Playing a pure =

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/02/DoingItWrong_Auto_3.jpg

[thefarmer]

Angellisa.

Phillippa too