sorcs dead?

[Septik]

So I'm just doing a bit of reading on this class and I'm seeing some saying the sorc class has been murdered. Is there any truth to this? Anyone care to explain why some are saying this?

:thanx:

[BriarFox]

So I'm just doing a bit of reading on this class and I'm seeing some saying the sorc class has been murdered. Is there any truth to this? Anyone care to explain why some are saying this?

:thanx:

Because the glory days are always in the past. Duh!

DC and Mana Disruption and whatnot used to be more powerful. I imagine that's the basis of the complaint.

[Fallen]

If COL Wracking gets nerfed you're going to see all of the warding based casters, to include sorcerers, take a huge hit. Depending on how long you've been gone/not paying attention, yes. Sorcerers lost a lot of power from the Growing Pains Dark Cat/Mana Disrupt nerfs. Beyond that, though, we've been doing ok. Really, it only seems like sorcerers got nerfed because a few other classes, like empaths, have risen to power so quickly. Sorcerers are fine, and from a recent post by Strathspay, have a good deal to look forward to.

You want to talk about dead classes? I would point you in the direction of rogues. They are stale.

[Skeeter]

I was a warding sorc who was full voln. I think I converted over in the mid 40s. mana never was an issue.

[Fallen]

I was a warding sorc who was full voln. I think I converted over in the mid 40s. mana never was an issue.

It is a question of hunting tactics. Volners tend to get used to plinking.

[Septik]

If COL Wracking gets nerfed you're going to see all of the warding based casters, to include sorcerers, take a huge hit. Depending on how long you've been gone/not paying attention, yes. Sorcerers lost a lot of power from the Growing Pains Dark Cat/Mana Disrupt nerfs. Beyond that, though, we've been doing ok. Really, it only seems like sorcerers got nerfed because a few other classes, like empaths, have risen to power so quickly. Sorcerers are fine, and from a recent post by Strathspay, have a good deal to look forward to.

You want to talk about dead classes? I would point you in the direction of rogues. They are stale.

Well I've been away over 6 years. I knew in those days MD would be nerfed eventually but how was DC nerfed? With these 2 spells being toned down, what is the main spell(s) sorcs use to hunt now adays?

[Fallen]

The mana returns on DC have been slashed. You will normally receive 1-4 mana on a cast on the proper type of target. Sometimes you can get as high as 9-12. Further, only magical, and to a lesser extent, semi-magical creatures are susceptible to the spell. Hitting physical creatures will do like 15 damage and be a complete waste of mana.

Sorcerers mainly use 702, 705, 719, and 720. The same spells, just far less powerful for 702/705 unless you channel your casts with an open hand from offensive (though what is in your hands doesn't matter for 705). Channelling gives you 3 seconds of hard RT. We have no lores to improve the damage output from 702/705, and you must train in Elemental lores to power up Dark Catalyst. 720 was nerfed against players, and has been given a much higher mana cost regardless of your Mana Control training. Other than that it is still the best Non-CS based DD spell in the game. Rarely get any treasure, though.

Minor Summoning (725) sucks

Animate Dead (730) pretty much sucks without toys or an obscene amount of lore training.

[Allereli]

718 is severely underrated and under used

[Fallen]

The delay in it striking the target and the danger faced in having to stand in front of something in offensive make it a tough spell to utilize often. That being said I work it into my arsinal when I can.

[Septik]

The mana returns on DC have been slashed. You will normally receive 1-4 mana on a cast on the proper type of target. Sometimes you can get as high as 9-12. Further, only magical, and to a lesser extent, semi-magical creatures are susceptible to the spell. Hitting physical creatures will do like 15 damage and be a complete waste of mana.

Sorcerers mainly use 702, 705, 719, and 720. The same spells, just far less powerful for 702/705 unless you channel your casts with an open hand from offensive (though what is in your hands doesn't matter for 705). Channelling gives you 3 seconds of hard RT. We have no lores to improve the damage output from 702/705, and you must train in Elemental lores to power up Dark Catalyst. 720 was nerfed against players, and has been given a much higher mana cost regardless of your Mana Control training. Other than that it is still the best Non-CS based DD spell in the game. Rarely get any treasure, though.

Minor Summoning (725) sucks

Animate Dead (730) pretty much sucks without toys or an obscene amount of lore training.


Damn, I was hoping 730 wouldn't suck.. When you say without toys, what do you mean? How much lore training do you think is needed to make this spell decent?

[Fallen]

Damn, I was hoping 730 wouldn't suck.. When you say without toys, what do you mean? How much lore training do you think is needed to make this spell decent?


There are 2 Soulstone wands which greatly increase the power of the spell, and replace the need to use Salt Crystals. Without it you need a lot more Necro ranks to animate like level. You need to stay just about 1xed if you want to animate creatures anywhere near your level. Someone post the MAL formula. I am in the middle of playing Tales of Vesperia again.

[zhelas]

Necromancy and MAL
MAL is set on a scale of -10 to +26. Meaning, a sorcerer, at her worst, can animate at ten levels below her own, and at her best, she could animate up to 26 levels above her own. Sorcerers without significant training in Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy are going to have negative MALs, but not to worry, this will not preclude you from animating, or finding worthwhile targets for animation. To find out what your exact MAL is (using Troll King blood), use your Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy ranks as (N) into the following equation:

MAL = {(N-20)/5}-10 [round down]
If your Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy ranks are less than 20, assume a -10 MAL. If you are a less experienced sorcerer, this number will be modified by whatever bonus you’re getting from the troll blood you’re using, and it likely be higher than what this equation assumes. Refer to section 4 (Troll Blood and MAL) or the Troll page for more detailed information.

Example: 'Sorcerer A' is level 58 and has 58 ranks of Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy. 58 minus 20 is 38. 38 ranks divided by 5 is slightly over 7. Rounding down, we get 7 even. Next, subtract 10 from 7, and we have -3. This means that Sorcerer A, using Troll King blood, will be able to animate at 3 levels below their own, or in other words, any creatures up to and including level 55. Increasing their Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy ranks to 60, would cause their MAL to rise to -2 (they may animate up to level 56).


You need about 70 ranks of Necro to animate a creature equal to your training.

Peace

[Septik]

Thanks all for taking the time to help with this useful info. It's really appreciated.

[Septik]

And dayum that is alot of necro ranks

[zhelas]

And dayum that is alot of necro ranks

True.

Zhelas is a full 1x in Necro and .5x in Demonology.

One of our best spells is Pain (711) To receive the best benefits on that spell try to be .75x to 1x in Necro.

A good reference website is Krakiipedia.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

[Numbers]

I got real bored of my sorcerer after all the growing pain nerfs. Sure, MD and DC were overpowered. But that made up for being such a pussy class in the lower levels, having no other decent attack spells, and being so difficult to level (back then).

Animate Dead had amazing potential. But they fucked it up with the shitty duration and absurd prep/lore requirements. The spell doesn't become worth it until near cap. Minor summoning just plain sucks. Creative and nifty, but still worthless as a utility spell.

[Warriorbird]

Sorcs = still GS easy mode. You just have to have a high tolerance for complete fucking boredom.

[zhelas]

Animate Dead had amazing potential. But they fucked it up with the shitty duration and absurd prep/lore requirements.

The spell is also still buggy. Sure Strath has been fixing small bugs but it is like holding a broken car together with chewing gum.

If you don't have one of those nifty wands. You can't heal your animates either if they get damaged. I really don't see why they can't release healing animates. The coding is there. I guess they don't want to piss the folks off who spent all those silvers at that EG auction for the wands.


Sorcs = still GS easy mode.
We should add any CS warding class to your list.
Empaths
Clerics
and Immolation Wizards


You just have to have a high tolerance for complete fucking boredom.
True. About the only things you can do is hunt, be an artisan or do boring guild reps.

We have screamed and begged the GMs to give the class other options. Honestly I don't think they have a clear vision on what the class should be.
Right now we are Master Plinkers and the collectors of Components.

[Drew]

Sorcs suck only in comparison to when they used to be clearly better than any other class. Like empaths today.


If you are looking for an uber class I'd wager bards is the way to go. I don't think they'll be nerfed anytime soon and they are great once you cap. Empaths might get nerfed sometime between now and capping.

[TheWitch]

Here's my 2 cents:

We're far from dead, still very playable and we have some really cool spells.
740. Intra/cross realm transport. 725 is okay, if you lower your expectations from what a lot of us had. They're pets, not DEMONS!!11! They're not scary, they're not dangerous. They just carry some stuff for you. Yawn. 730's been covered - much potential, largely failed implementation.

IMO, we were over balanced, and I blame Nilven for being a spineless wimp when it came to this and cowtowing too far to Warden. Then disappearing. Our cool spells all come with a pile of shit to carry around with us, and the only one I think is "balanced" (I have so much hate for that word) is 740. A book, some chalk, off you go. 730 is an absolute friggen joke with the components.

Meanwhile, our two staple spells, especially at low levels - 702 and 705 - have no way to be enhanced via training. Channel from offensive, one hand open. Again, yawn. 718 again so much potential, but sacrificed at the alter of balance.

Know this, if you come back from a pre IV conversion, you have a month to mess around with your stats and training with free migration.

[Mtenda]

Going from Teras to Ta'Illistim in an instant with 740 is epic win.

[Fallen]

If you don't have one of those nifty wands. You can't heal your animates either if they get damaged. I really don't see why they can't release healing animates. The coding is there. I guess they don't want to piss the folks off who spent all those silvers at that EG auction for the wands.

That would be a bullshit reason if that were true, Zhelas. Virilneus and I both own the wands, and I got mine from Querthose. We all have tried repeatedly to get the spell tweaked to the point it would make our wands near useless. A spell this fun shouldn't just be viable for those who own 1 of 2 items in the whole game. Same thing goes for the language earcuffs. I have owned two of them and I still want everyone to be able to learn languages in some way or another.

Sorcerers, and all warding based casters (clerics are probably more boring) all = GS on easy mode, as long as you don't suck. That doesn't mean some of our spells don't blow.

[zhelas]

I returned after leaving during Growing Pains and saw a lot of great changes to Sorcery. I was thinking WOW we have come a long way! And we have!

However.......

The struggle to level 20 is still hard. But is much easier with the exp gift you get once a week.

You will start feeling your power around level 40. Mana problems begin to disappear and you can dabble with the more powerful spells.

At level 96 the power is great.

You will feel frustrated when you discover that the creatures have a high TD against Sorcerer Spells. While Empaths and Clerics don't have that penalty.

The high creature TDs is an old outdated fix that was implemented to try and combat folks who tripled in Sorcerer Circle back in the GS3 days. Today if your Sorcerer Circle is more than 20 ranks above your current level you get deminishing returns. I know someone here has that break down.

So GS clamped down on tripling to some extent but the left the high TDs. Therefore we have low endrolls and we..... Plink!

But WAIT Sorcerers have FI! Which is the god like spell. Honestly. FI isn't all it is cracked up to be. As you start using it, you will see that even being fully 2x in Spell aiming there will be many times it could take upto 6 casts to kill one creature. (Happened a lot in the Bowels when I hunted Jarls) Plus if the creature is blown to bits = NO LOOT. At 96 trains the only creature I use FI on is Water Elementals.

Unfortunately our profession is still based off the old CS model. I recommend being 2.3x to 2.4x in spell training. This will help your CS be high enough. Use one of those heavy quartz orbs. It will add 10 to your CS for about 10 minutes.

Sure there are mutant builds that use 111 and 118. Those spells are GREAT! But they are Mana Intensive and not practical at low levels. Plus an investment in Summoning Lores is needed to make them even better.

Positive note! .............maybe

I owe you folks a long post on my devious plans for the 700s, but I haven't had enough focus to sit down and type up a good one. I know there's been a lot of anguish over the prospect of a sorecery lore review. The bottom line is that I want to do it after the elemental lores are done. More words on that (and other things) to come.

-Strath

Peace

[zhelas]

That would be a bullshit reason if that were true, Zhelas. Virilneus and I both own the wands, and I got mine from Querthose. We all have tried repeatedly to get the spell tweaked to the point it would make our wands near useless. A spell this fun shouldn't just be viable for those who own 1 of 2 items in the whole game. Same thing goes for the language earcuffs. I have owned two of them and I still want everyone to be able to learn languages in some way or another.


I agree with your post.

I know you, V, Rheisia, Querthose and many others have screamed, begged, banged your heads trying to understand the GM's reasoning why things still remain the status quo. That is why my statement was BS. (Sorry I should have put sarcasm in that earlier post)

There is no logical reason to keep those options to a few who have the items.

[Rathain]

You will feel frustrated when you discover that the creatures have a high TD against Sorcerer Spells. While Empaths and Clerics don't have that penalty.

If you test your statement in game, you'll find it to be incorrect. It's been tested by a number of people to be false, probably most thoroughly by Windi/Shaukal.

Once you begin testing on a cleric and sorcerer with an equal number of spell ranks (ie 3x with massive overtraining in the profession specific circle), you'll find that the total warding margin goes as follows: sorcerer > empath > cleric.

Sorcerer's at 3x can generate a higher warding margin on animal creatures (to avoid innate creature profession TD bias) upwards of 15 or greater points higher than a cleric. Empaths follow next at 5-8 higher than a cleric. Clerics come in last because it was hardcoded that way. They expected clerics to overtrain in their circle more than any other pure - for that particular class, there really is no better option for tp's after level 70 than to tack on spell ranks. Because of this expectation, 425 is actually a boon. It's just that many players of sorcerers don't take notice that they are comparing warding margins from their 2.4x spell training build vs. a empath or cleric who is near 3x. Once the sorcerer comes near 3x, it's no contest.

[Fallen]

So, at WAAAAY post cap, Sorcerers come out ahead. The vast majority of the time otherwise Clerics/Empaths have it easier. Good to know. That still doesn't change the fact that sorcerers still get screwed out of CS for our lesser circles because of the hybrid situation. Supposedly, we get our perks elsewhere. I would rather ditch those nebulous "perks" and have a higher Spirutal/Elemental CS.

[Rathain]

It's not way post cap for all. There are sorcerers out there near 3xed pre cap. Winowyll for one had a higher CS than Evarin despite Evarin's higher accumulation of xp. Why ? She made the decision to amp her CS.

If you streamline their training path with others that generate higher CS, sorcerers come out on top. I'm not sure where you feel there is some great evil plotting against you. The CS differential is a direct result of a training pathway chosen by the player.

As far as spiritual/elemental CS - sorcerers are hybrids. You reap the TD benefits of being a hybrid (by having higher spiritual TD than a wizard and higher elemental TD than a cleric), and you reap the CS penalty of being less effective casters in those minor spheres. I don't know if this is a fair exchange for all, but it's part of the package that you must have known about before capping your character.

[Fallen]

As far as spiritual/elemental CS - sorcerers are hybrids. You reap the TD benefits of being a hybrid (by having higher spiritual TD than a wizard and higher elemental TD than a cleric), and you reap the CS penalty of being less effective casters in those minor spheres. I don't know if this is a fair exchange for all, but it's part of the package that you must have known about before capping your character.

I never bothered to play around with CS based spells in either of my lesser circles until I was bored to tears with my own spells. This was right about the time I capped in OTF. You of all people know how easy it is to get extra DS/TD from trinkets and scrolls, Rathain. How easy is it to get CS?

Anyone that is 3xing spells is a mutant build. Using a mutant to compare against normal training and saying it is advantageous in one way is a flawed argument. Winowyll also got absolutely decimated in OTF because of a lack of defensive skills. You, on the other hand walked around OTF Barehanded for the juicy double open handed Chanelling benefits. Which, I will admit is pretty badass and I eventually mean to do with Evarin.

A bit off topic, did you see what they did with Smite/Bane? Pity you don't play Rathain anymore as you would be loving that change.

[crb]

If you test your statement in game, you'll find it to be incorrect. It's been tested by a number of people to be false, probably most thoroughly by Windi/Shaukal.

Once you begin testing on a cleric and sorcerer with an equal number of spell ranks (ie 3x with massive overtraining in the profession specific circle), you'll find that the total warding margin goes as follows: sorcerer > empath > cleric.

Sorcerer's at 3x can generate a higher warding margin on animal creatures (to avoid innate creature profession TD bias) upwards of 15 or greater points higher than a cleric. Empaths follow next at 5-8 higher than a cleric. Clerics come in last because it was hardcoded that way. They expected clerics to overtrain in their circle more than any other pure - for that particular class, there really is no better option for tp's after level 70 than to tack on spell ranks. Because of this expectation, 425 is actually a boon. It's just that many players of sorcerers don't take notice that they are comparing warding margins from their 2.4x spell training build vs. a empath or cleric who is near 3x. Once the sorcerer comes near 3x, it's no contest.

Actually no, Windi's tests were completely ridiculous and I proved as much on the officials and she quit the thread in a funny little tantrum.

Furthermore it has been confirmed by GMs, Estild & Oscuro, they don't think it is a big deal, but they've confirmed it.

What Windi idiotically did was look only at a very small sample size of fully dispelled critters. Like say an Ithzir adept. Ithzir adepts gen with quite a few elemental defensive spells, but, being elemental, they don't cast a single spiritual buff. As such, their fully dispelled Spiritual TD is far closer to their fully spelled Spiritual TD than the same comparison registers with elemental TDs. So when you fully dispel them it appears that clerics are punished, but of course, no player (who hasn't expended dozens and dozens of mana) ever encounters a fully dispelled adept, and the proper way to do the comparison is at the point that GMs have balance, IE the gen state. Windi couldn't understand this, no matter how many times myself and Estild explained it, I think Zyllah may have even chimed in too.

[crb]

As far as spiritual/elemental CS - sorcerers are hybrids. You reap the TD benefits of being a hybrid (by having higher spiritual TD than a wizard and higher elemental TD than a cleric), and you reap the CS penalty of being less effective casters in those minor spheres. I don't know if this is a fair exchange for all, but it's part of the package that you must have known about before capping your character.

Another logical fallacy.

The better elemental TD than a cleric is counteracted by the worse elemental TD than a wizard.

The better spiritual TD than a wizard is counteracted by the worse spiritual TD than a cleric.

Those are direct relationships.

Though, wholly, it is a huge snafu to assign one benefit from one profession as being justified by an unrelated penalty in that same profession. You can't pick one penalty, having a lower CS (which apparently you now admit exists?) and combine it one another benefit like middling TD when compared to other pures. (yay middling!). And call things even. You could do that all day with arbitrary profession features, you won't get anywhere.

[crb]

That would be a bullshit reason if that were true, Zhelas. Virilneus and I both own the wands, and I got mine from Querthose. We all have tried repeatedly to get the spell tweaked to the point it would make our wands near useless. A spell this fun shouldn't just be viable for those who own 1 of 2 items in the whole game. Same thing goes for the language earcuffs. I have owned two of them and I still want everyone to be able to learn languages in some way or another.

Sorcerers, and all warding based casters (clerics are probably more boring) all = GS on easy mode, as long as you don't suck. That doesn't mean some of our spells don't blow.
Since I bought my wand AT the actual auction I paid far less than I'm sure Evarin did. I would of course be miffed still if it was made worthless, however... giving others the ability to heal animates, perhaps through alchemy, doesn't take away from my ability to likely do it quicker and easier. And even giving others the ability to animate without crystals doesn't mean my wand, which takes the place of crystals, loses that ability. Crystal-used animates would stay superior,a nd so all my animates would be superior.

Or to say it another way, I'm fully confident in the superiority of the wand that I'm not at all threatened by any improvements to the spell.

[Rathain]

Actually no, Windi's tests were completely ridiculous and I proved as much on the officials and she quit the thread in a funny little tantrum.

Furthermore it has been confirmed by GMs, Estild & Oscuro, they don't think it is a big deal, but they've confirmed it.

What Windi idiotically did was look only at a very small sample size of fully dispelled critters. Like say an Ithzir adept. Ithzir adepts gen with quite a few elemental defensive spells, but, being elemental, they don't cast a single spiritual buff. As such, their fully dispelled Spiritual TD is far closer to their fully spelled Spiritual TD than the same comparison registers with elemental TDs. So when you fully dispel them it appears that clerics are punished, but of course, no player (who hasn't expended dozens and dozens of mana) ever encounters a fully dispelled adept, and the proper way to do the comparison is at the point that GMs have balance, IE the gen state. Windi couldn't understand this, no matter how many times myself and Estild explained it, I think Zyllah may have even chimed in too.

First, just because Estild and Oscuro don't see the fault, doesn't mean it's not there. They left an ongoing bug RE:mass interference go running in OTF for years because no one bothered to investigate the problem. Estild automatically wrote it off as player bitching, until several people took notice and posted in one massive clusterfuck of a thread.

And Windi's trials were just that - trials. I didn't use her trials for any of the Ithzir subclasses, as they have inherent profession biased TD's. Instead, myself and at least one other used War griffins. It's really not that hard of a comparison - infuse a scroll of 302 and cast, use your empath to attack, and then your sorcerer. You can say logic is incorrect but this isn't logic - it's substantive evidence. If the TD warding margin for two similar races and similarly trained sorcerer and empath product a warding margin that is greater than 25 (the effect of 425 for your sorcerer), you have a warding differential that favors sorcerers. You can deny it, but you can't disprove it. Run the numbers.

[Rathain]

Another logical fallacy.

The better elemental TD than a cleric is counteracted by the worse elemental TD than a wizard.

The better spiritual TD than a wizard is counteracted by the worse spiritual TD than a cleric.

Those are direct relationships.

Though, wholly, it is a huge snafu to assign one benefit from one profession as being justified by an unrelated penalty in that same profession. You can't pick one penalty, having a lower CS (which apparently you now admit exists?) and combine it one another benefit like middling TD when compared to other pures. (yay middling!). And call things even. You could do that all day with arbitrary profession features, you won't get anywhere.

It's been said before - sorcerers are hybrids. They are superior at sorcery, and are inferior both in offensive and defensive postures when it comes to the respective minor spheres.

Since you enjoy the opinions of Estild and Oscuro enough to herald them when it comes to Sorcerery CS, I'm sure you'll also love their opinion on why a sorcerer's MnS CS is meant to be lower.

[Rathain]

I never bothered to play around with CS based spells in either of my lesser circles until I was bored to tears with my own spells. This was right about the time I capped in OTF. You of all people know how easy it is to get extra DS/TD from trinkets and scrolls, Rathain. How easy is it to get CS?

Anyone that is 3xing spells is a mutant build. Using a mutant to compare against normal training and saying it is advantageous in one way is a flawed argument. Winowyll also got absolutely decimated in OTF because of a lack of defensive skills. You, on the other hand walked around OTF Barehanded for the juicy double open handed Chanelling benefits. Which, I will admit is pretty badass and I eventually mean to do with Evarin.

A bit off topic, did you see what they did with Smite/Bane? Pity you don't play Rathain anymore as you would be loving that change.

Had a feeling you'd be ditching the shield. About smite/bane - my account has been deactivated for months, so I haven't tested it. It sounded like only the mana costed changed though, right ?

[Fallen]

OOh yeah. I remember that now. It was hilarious. You cannot say creatures are balanced as long as they are fully dispelled. Retarded argument.


Actually no, Windi's tests were completely ridiculous and I proved as much on the officials and she quit the thread in a funny little tantrum.

Furthermore it has been confirmed by GMs, Estild & Oscuro, they don't think it is a big deal, but they've confirmed it.

What Windi idiotically did was look only at a very small sample size of fully dispelled critters. Like say an Ithzir adept. Ithzir adepts gen with quite a few elemental defensive spells, but, being elemental, they don't cast a single spiritual buff. As such, their fully dispelled Spiritual TD is far closer to their fully spelled Spiritual TD than the same comparison registers with elemental TDs. So when you fully dispel them it appears that clerics are punished, but of course, no player (who hasn't expended dozens and dozens of mana) ever encounters a fully dispelled adept, and the proper way to do the comparison is at the point that GMs have balance, IE the gen state. Windi couldn't understand this, no matter how many times myself and Estild explained it, I think Zyllah may have even chimed in too.

[Fallen]

Had a feeling you'd be ditching the shield. About smite/bane - my account has been deactivated for months, so I haven't tested it. It sounded like only the mana costed changed though, right ?

I will never ditch the shield, but I may try to get my DS high enough to simply not use it for most hunting.

The Bane/Smite changes awesome. You now get the FULL benefit of Religion lore Infusions WITHOUT the infusion cost. So for 2 mana you get insane damage on Bane/Smite when you have the religion lore.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=39431&highlight=Official%3A+smite

That is the link.

[RainyDay2080]

718 again so much potential, but sacrificed at the alter of balance.

What do you mean by this? I don't remember any balance nerfs, or any changes at all even, to 718. But I haven't played a sorcerer very long and wasn't paying close attention before.

I'd agree with someone else that clerics are much more of a yawn than sorcerers.

[Fallen]

What do you mean by this? I don't remember any balance nerfs, or any changes at all even, to 718. But I haven't played a sorcerer very long and wasn't paying close attention before.

I'd agree with someone else that clerics are much more of a yawn than sorcerers.

718 has only gotten uptweaked with its changes. Granted, the lore tie-ins are a bit flimsy, but the cycling damage tables were a huge boon to the spell. Instead of just doing unbalance strikes it now will do slash, puncture, and crush?, which are obviously far more deadly.

[TheWitch]

718 summons demonic forces to destroy the target.

Sounds great, right?

Except:
It takes around 5 seconds for the spell to actually work from the time you cast it, then about the same amount of time between cycles. DOT sucks, hard, by the time you have enough mana to use this spell regularily. You just cannot stand around in front of critters waiting for things to kick in. Same reason 710 fails at higher levels.

Especially in offensive stance. Which even the best trained sorcerer will want to assume, so as to avoid the spell backlashing and killing them. Casters stance directly effects the TD of the target. If you have a 100% warding rate on the critter you're casting on, then it's not a big deal.

The damage and crit tables used are the unbalance tables. Many critters are immune to unbalance, nichifying the spell. Not horrible, I admit, and as Evarin said there are other factors now. But I've had the spell take 5 rounds to actually kill, like just the other day. That's about 30 seconds of standing around waiting for something to die. In offensive.

The way this was sacrificed on the altar of balance was all those caveats, not via nerf, but the original spell design.

Since my character is post cap, by a lot, and a shield brawl build, I'll use this spell now. But as a runestaff sorcerer, it's really really risky. For not enough power, IMO. There are many sorcerers who do use the spell, and like it. I don't happen to be one of them, but I freely admit I absolutely hate DOT. HATE.

[Fallen]

I think Torment is one of the few DOT spells that actually works. I do wish you could do more in terms of training to stance down without massive TD penalties, but meh.

Wait for the creature to do something, cast 718 in offensive and move to the next room. Wait for the cycle of damage and return to either finish it off or watch your spell take effect.

I usually use it against Griffins when they enter the room. I would use it a lot more in swarms but Ithzir fade, making the spell stupid in OTF as it will either kill you, or the Ithzir will die in the Alt-Realm and you will never get to loot it. If I hunted Nelemar I would likely use the spell a lot more than I do now, but this is working with the understanding that I can stand in a room full of OTF level creatures in offensive. Normal sorcerers cannot and should not do that.

[Rathgar]

Just curious, how long does it usually take a sorc to kill a critter? Using a spell they can constantly use and having no mana problems with and being in stance o.

[crb]

It's been said before - sorcerers are hybrids. They are superior at sorcery, and are inferior both in offensive and defensive postures when it comes to the respective minor spheres.

Since you enjoy the opinions of Estild and Oscuro enough to herald them when it comes to Sorcerery CS, I'm sure you'll also love their opinion on why a sorcerer's MnS CS is meant to be lower.
And I can easily say our higher cost for elemental/spiritual lores, or say, our inability to cast the 200 and 500 circles, are what make us weaker.

You've also made some points about tripling. Did you ever stop to think that so many clerics triple (ie, overtrain 300s) because the 200 circle gives relatively little (read no) benefit for over training or training to any high degree? This luxury, full bonuses that are only increased by side lore training instead of spell training, is what allows clerics (and empaths) to triple their primary more. Wizards really have the shit stick here, with key spells in each spell circle that require incremental training. They can't just go to rank 40 and stop and make up the difference with lore.

You're looking at it like "I have to overtrain the 300s" moreso, you get to. I think if they changed the 200 circle so that a key spell or two had a much much smaller starting bonus and then required incremental training you'd have an argument for reducing critter cleric TD.

[Rathain]

And I can easily say our higher cost for elemental/spiritual lores, or say, our inability to cast the 200 and 500 circles, are what make us weaker.

You've also made some points about tripling. Did you ever stop to think that so many clerics triple (ie, overtrain 300s) because the 200 circle gives relatively little (read no) benefit for over training or training to any high degree? This luxury, full bonuses that are only increased by side lore training instead of spell training, is what allows clerics (and empaths) to triple their primary more. Wizards really have the shit stick here, with key spells in each spell circle that require incremental training. They can't just go to rank 40 and stop and make up the difference with lore.

You're looking at it like "I have to overtrain the 300s" moreso, you get to. I think if they changed the 200 circle so that a key spell or two had a much much smaller starting bonus and then required incremental training you'd have an argument for reducing critter cleric TD.

Having the 200's circle suck monkey balls is not a luxury.

And I would hardly say that wizards have the shit stick - they can train 101 ranks in each spell circle, and still ward a creature with 99% effectiveness like level (assuming they are casting from full leather with the standard +25 aura bonus). To boot, they receive ancillary (DS, TD, and enhanced enchanting.) It is a pretty neat situation to have that all around effectiveness and utility.

And no, I'm not asking for critter cleric TD to be lowered (where did I ask for cleric TD to be reduced?). What I'm responding to are comments about clerics and empaths having it on easy street regarding TD to ward against, and that sorcerers are somehow shafted. It's not an accurate statement, because the warding margin favors the sorcerer of like training.

[Rathain]

I will never ditch the shield, but I may try to get my DS high enough to simply not use it for most hunting.

The Bane/Smite changes awesome. You now get the FULL benefit of Religion lore Infusions WITHOUT the infusion cost. So for 2 mana you get insane damage on Bane/Smite when you have the religion lore.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=39431&highlight=Official%3A+smite

That is the link.

This sounds pretty neat. I'm kind of tempted to see what it looks like.

[zhelas]

Just curious, how long does it usually take a sorc to kill a critter? Using a spell they can constantly use and having no mana problems with and being in stance o.

How long? Really it depends on the end roll. But for this example. If one were to cast 711 on a creature (and being fully 1x in Necro) With optimum rolls that put the creatures in excruciating pain. 3 casts.

Most of the time one may have to prep the creature with Curse 715 to lower the TD.

Without channeling 705 is about 4 to 5 casts. With decent rolls. Terrible rolls it can take more of course.

DC? Depends on the endroll and the type of creature. example: A siren might take 1 to 2 casts to kill them.

I have seen Immolation wizards just cruise through the Temple. They will one shot a creature while it take me at least 3 casts.

FI? Sometimes if it is taking me tooo long to plink away at a creature I will FI. But basically I save that for the regular and greater water elementals. Number of casts? 1 to 3 on average.

[TheWitch]

That's not such a straight-forward question to answer...

At cap I can DC the magical Ithzir and kill them in one shot about 85% of the time. They are mostly lower level, and I have ~55 ranks of elemental lore for a 719. I can 718 a griffin, so one cast, but then wait as long as 30 seconds for the death blow. I can plink on scouts and jans, usually three casts of either MD or 705 channeled from offensive, or I can usually take them out with one cast of 717. Or ignore them entirely. <--1st choice. I have 315 mana, and since I'm hunting living things can sacrifice for another ~100. I can use the high number spells for a one shot kill.

My level 34 sorcerer, on the other hand, takes 2 or 3 casts of MD, channeled from offensive - to kill a fire guardian. They're level 15. Hunting like level in pookas, it's usually 3 - 5 MD's, 2 - 3 705s. She has 118 mana. Using 719 on a regular basis really isn't an option. Using anything but 702 or 705 isn't really an option, if I want to finish a hunt fried.

The moral of the story is: Sorcerers plink, a lot. This is even more true at lower - mid levels, where it can take several casts to kill something and they lack the mana to use the more powerful (but niched) spells.

So how long? Anywhere from 3 to 30 seconds.

[zhelas]

That's not such a straight-forward question to answer...

Honestly there really isn't a great answer for that.

We do plink.

However we do have great dissabler spells. If you are 2x in spell aim, aimed limb disruption is fantastic. And 711. If you can't one shot and you must plink with with 702 and 705, I highly recomend dissabling the creature if you can. Especially if you hunt by yourself when creatures get more maneuvers.

Creature dissabled = Fewer cheap maneuver deaths.

Oh not to mention our wide category of DOT spells. :(

[Rathgar]

So essentially any spell above 717 is about a 1 shot (3 sec soft time) kill. So why not just exclusively use 717 and above? You'll at least get like 20 kills like that, isnt that enough?

[zhelas]

So essentially any spell above 717 is about a 1 shot (3 sec soft time) kill. So why not just exclusively use 717 and above? You'll at least get like 20 kills like that, isnt that enough?


Using a deadly stare, the caster instills intense fear into the target(s). Depending upon the severity of the warding failure, the terrified target may freeze, run away, or outright die

101-124 Causes target to flee one room away in a random direction No Stun; Incurs 10 seconds of hard RT

125 Causes the target to fall to the ground. Creatures will drop items in their hands. Stance will be reduced to neutral. Results in a stun. Stuns for 12 seconds

126-174 Same as previous Stun equal to previous plus 1 second every 2 endroll points. (13 seconds at 126, 14 seconds at 128, etc)

175-198 Causes the target to flee for their life out of the area. Creature targets will be considered dead, though no body will be left behind. Player targets will immediately flee to the next town. If the target is missing either two legs or a leg and the opposing arm, it will instead be knocked unconscious due to its inability to flee. No resulting stun

199+ Targets dies No resulting stun

With an Eye Spy (707) eye active, one may cast this spell unfocused and remotely. This will target some or all possible targets (creatures and players) in the same room as the eye. The actual number of targets subject to this unfocused version of the spell is randomly determined. When cast remotely, this spell is slightly weaker, and all targets receive a TD bonus of 25

So not necessarily all that practical. I personally like loot. Can't really get any if there isn't a corpse to search. 711 incurs 10 second hard RT and there is a corpse to loot after 3 casts.

***I vaguely remember reading something about how it works in OTF. Weren't some of the creatures immune to it?***


718 is a DOT. About the only use I have ever had with it is hunting Fire Mages. Still not a one shot kill. I know other who hunt OTF use it on griffins and such. I really don't want to stand in full offense waiting for it to kill a Triton Combatant, Radical etc. While I wait an Executioner ambushes me. I would rather disable it and kill it.

719 is not always one shot kill. Rhiesia Witch I know has heavily invested in Elemental lores to make it marginally better.

720 is not always a one shot kill. And besides many of us like Loot. Blown to bits no loot.

[zhelas]

>717
Voodoo '717' to 'INCANT 717'.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Evil Eye...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton executioner.
You stare at a triton executioner.
CS: +494 - TD: +381 + CvA: +20 + d100: +59 == +192
Warding failed!
The triton executioner looks at you in utter terror!
The triton executioner drops its sharply tapered longsword.
The triton executioner drops its black steel buckler.
The triton executioner turns and runs screaming into the distance, never to be seen again.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>loot
Could not find a valid target to loot.
>

Sorry no thanks!

[Fallen]

Evil Eye faces stupidly high resistances in OTF. About half the creatures receive a bonus of some sort, and creatures like the Seer are practically immune. This also goes for a few other of our spells and Ithzir.

[TheWitch]

Evil Eye faces stupidly high resistances in OTF. About half the creatures receive a bonus of some sort, and creatures like the Seer are practically immune. This also goes for a few other of our spells and Ithzir.

Scouts and jans are easily wardable with 717, but yea, the magical Ithzir especially seers I can't ward, sometimes at all. Evil eye I find amusing as hell, when you get the "runs off into the distance" messaging, and very much in keeping with the witch. So it's really more of an RP thing when I use it, because I would prefer to ignore them entirely. Sometimes they're just too annoying to do that.

And yes I have 55 - 25 in fire because that's the first cycle of the spell, the other 30 spread evenly over the other three - ranks of elemental lore for a better DC. How much better than someone with 0 elemental lore, I have no idea. They can't/won't tell us.

And no, it's not at all accurate to say anything above 717 is a one shot kill. It can be a one shot kill, yes, which rarely if ever happens with anything below 717.

702 and 705 plink, 710 takes like two hours (okay, I'm exagerating a little), 711 takes three casts minimum, 715 stanced for DOT and 716 rarely kill at all - before the duration runs out. The rest are set up: 701, 706, 709, 713 and yes even my favorite, 708.

I hunt fine, and always have, this isn't a "poor sorcerers" discussion, IMO. The OP asked the status of the profession, he's getting it from people who play sorcerers. So you buttwipes out there giving negative rep for this discussin, sit and spin.

[zhelas]

711 takes three casts minimum... this isn't a "poor sorcerers" discussion, IMO.

Amen to not a poor sorcerers discussion.

711 is one of my favorite spells. Love it!

But for shits and grins....

Folks who are new to the profession when you look at that "711 takes three casts at a minimum"....How many casts does it take to kill a fresh Giant Rat or a Kobold? 3.... F'ed up really....Yes Yes I know. "WHY WOULD YOU WASTE 711 ON A GIANT RAT OR KOBOLD!" But it is interesting that it would take 33 mana to kill one of those creatures.

I still love 711 it is meant to be used against much older creatures.

Peace

[Sean of the Thread]

I remember speccin for 111 once before and it was a blast (literally)

[Fallen]

I remember speccin for 111 once before and it was a blast (literally)

Yep. That and Web Bolt (118), as well as Area web is a lot of fun too. If you get enough lore, Call Lightning (125) can be a good tool for invasions, and opening boxes in the field as well. Summoning lore is my favorite lore of our three primaries: Necro, Demon, and Summoning.

[zhelas]

I remember speccin for 111 once before and it was a blast (literally)

I know Virilneus swears by it. With Summoning lores in combination with Web/Spirit Fire. He says it is basically godly. But then he is way post cap.

It is a bit more challenging for folks who don't have a huge bank of mana.

111 on Plane 5 against the Vaesps was a lot of fun.

Peace

[zhelas]

Yep. That and Web Bolt (118), as well as Area web is a lot of fun too. If you get enough lore, Call Lightning (125) can be a good tool for invasions, and opening boxes in the field as well. Summoning lore is my favorite lore of our three primaries: Necro, Demon, and Summoning.

My summoning lores aren't up to snuff yet but it is one of my primary post cap goals to fix that. Spirit Fire causes the Web to catch on fire yes?

Four more Trains till cap

Peace

[Fallen]

It does at that, though I don't usually use that method. I rather creatures remain immobile than receive piddling fire damage.

[TheLastShamurai]

If you get enough lore, Call Lightning (125) can be a good tool for invasions

how so?

[Stanley Burrell]

sords dead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFXGwHsD_A

[Fallen]

It ignores level in terms of damage.

[Anferis]

The delay in it striking the target and the danger faced in having to stand in front of something in offensive make it a tough spell to utilize often. That being said I work it into my arsinal when I can.

Is there any specific amount of time that the delay takes? I'd probably work it in more if I knew how much time I could spare in guarded and casting at other things.

[Fallen]

I believe one full round before the spell takes effect. 5 seconds.