Best way to train additional DS in.

[Fatsix]

I'm trying to figure out the best and cheapest (if there is such a thing) to train in more DS in defensive. Level 80 giant pure bard, my CS is high enough to hunt OTF, so i can afford right now to single in spells and pick up some other skills. I use a sonic tower shield and sonic armor. (7x)

Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Shield Use.........................| 182 82
Brawling...........................| 182 82
Physical Fitness...................| 182 82
Perception.........................| 181 81
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75
Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 82

Do i get 10-20 ranks of dodge to reap the max benefits of the higher bonus per rank? 2x shield or brawling? MOC would help with groups.. what about CM?

5/0 2 Armor Use
5/0 2 Shield Use
6/6 2 Dodging
8/4 2 Combat Manuvers
3/1 2 Brawling
7/3 1 M.O.C
0/3 2 Perception
4/0 2 Physical Training

[Fallen]

Have you considered Arcane Symbols or MIU? If you buy a bunch of small statues from playershops and get your MIU up to around 1x you will get over an Hour per Rub. That's a damn fast +20 DS. Plus, you will have more breathing room to wear outside spells. Same thing with Arcane Symbols and a commonly accessable spell like 503. One invocation at 1x will give you roughly an hour of use. That's another +20 DS.That, or get yourself 5 or so ranger rods that hold close to 80 and have them imbedded with 503. Raise them for a very healthy duration, and they will last a long, long time.

If you're dead set on using only your own training to get more DS, you could dump your CM ranks into that CMAN that gives you a +DS per rank when activated. The CM skill by itself does not help with DS in any stance. Another skill to consider is Perception. Scouts in OTF ambush, and Perception training helps negate the ambush pushdown. It wont stop them from pushing you to Offensive every now and then, but every advantage helps.

[Stretch]

Get air lore to maximize the benefits of your Sonic Shield and Song of Mirrors.

I forget what the thresholds are (20, 50, 100?), but more air lore = less penalty to dodge from larger shields.

[Fatsix]

i'm currently picking up miu ranks and using the outside spells like you mentioned. I usually have statues on. I'm trying to get away from going thru all this spell bs to gain additional ds not to mention some critters mass dispell you. Its a pain in the ass keeping track of spells when you play on two different computers during the day.

Hey Fallen, do you have an alert system setup so it pages your cellphone when you someone posts on this forum? A response in 2 minutes is great. just fucking with you.

[Fatsix]

cant do air lore and telepathy, my manip is maxed. i usually run around with +100 dodge anyway, I'm using the larger shield for more defensive ds, plus the additional blocking attacks is just as good. my mirrors add +52 dodge ranks.

[Celephais]

Umm... if your dodge is higher than your shield use ranks and you don't have air lore to mitigate away the large shield dodge penalty you shouldn't be using a large shield. The extra EVP block isn't made up for by the loss of extra EVP dodge, and your DS would be suffering as well.

So either try out a different size shield, or get some air lore. (you can have air lore and manipulation lore, different skills)

[Fatsix]

20 50 and 100 air lore ranks for shield sizing with sonic shield, mirrors is effected by bard spell ranks.

[Fatsix]

or i could just not have dex on +32 dodge. you can only train in 1 lore rank per train.

[Fatsix]

i switch shield sizes based on my dodge bonus. i should have made that more clear. but usually its medium shield and 100 dodge, or 52 dodge and tower shield. the 52 dodge and tower shield yeilds better results for me

[Fatsix]

shield ranks are cheaper than air lore ranks. 10/0 vs, 16/0 (converted) so that could be an option

[Stretch]

Manip and telepathy are mental lores.

Air lore is elemental.

You can keep your manip and still do air.

I'm also somewhat confused as to why you broke your points out across five posts.

[NocturnalRob]

2x brawling

kthnxbai

[Celephais]

you can only train in 1 lore rank per train.
False. Elemental Lore is a different skill pool than Mental Lore.

the 52 dodge and tower shield yeilds better results for me
I don't know if I buy that. Have you actually looked at the numbers or are you just saying it feels better? 82 shield use and 52 dodge ranks would leave me to believe you are losing a LOT of those dodge ranks to the larger shield, your stats could play a roll in this as well. It does depend more on the stance you are concerned with (if you're concerned with guarded stance then you have other problems... if you're concerned with offensive stance then dodge is more valuable)

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=39403
That thread has some info you may want to read up on.

[Fatsix]

because i am in training, and i have to keep flicking the page down and answer questions which is breaking my thought process. hahaha.

your right on the air lore, but its still only -3 shield sizes at 100 ranks, which is more expensive than 2x shield, which would yield direct ds results and i can carry as much dodge as i want.

[Izzy]

Umm... if your dodge is higher than your shield use ranks and you don't have air lore to mitigate away the large shield dodge penalty you shouldn't be using a large shield. The extra EVP block isn't made up for by the loss of extra EVP dodge, and your DS would be suffering as well.

So either try out a different size shield, or get some air lore. (you can have air lore and manipulation lore, different skills)

EBP, not EVP. Like, evade, block, parry.

Just sayin' :)

[Fatsix]

i'm concerned with defensive in stance d and guarded. here is the link for my shield testing
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=38902

[Fatsix]

heres a cut

101: Spirit Warding I - 56:11 remaining. [+10STD, +10BoltDS]
103: Spirit Defense - 33:04 remaining. [+10DS]
107: Spirit Warding II - 57:07 remaining. [+25STD, +25BoltDS]
202: Spirit Shield - 9:23 remaining. [+10DS]
204: Unpresence - 9:27 remaining.
401: Elemental Defense I - 59:38 remaining. [+5DS, +5ETD]
406: Elemental Defense II - 59:41 remaining. [+10DS, +10ETD]
414: Elemental Defense III - 59:44 remaining. [+20DS, +15ETD]
425: Elemental Targeting - 17:17 remaining. [+50AS, +50ECS]
430: Elemental Barrier - 17:20 remaining. [+37DS, +37ETD]
601: Mass Colors - 3h 31:11 remaining. [+10DS]
618: Mobility - 3h 28:56 remaining. [+20Dodging]
1003: Fortitude Song - 5:33 remaining. [+10DS]
1006: Song of Luck - 5:48 remaining.
1009: Sonic Shield Song - 5:52 remaining. [+35Shield]
1010: Song of Valor - 5:37 remaining. [+20DS]
1014: Sonic Armor Song - 5:58 remaining. [+35Armor]
1019: Song of Mirrors - 5:14 remaining. [+50Dodging]
Renewal: Bard Renewal Cycle - 5:14 remaining.
Staunching: Sign of Staunching - 22:40 remaining.

Total: [+35STD, +35BoltDS, +132DS, +67ETD, +50AS, +50ECS, +70Dodging, +35Shield, +35Armor]

dont know why mobility is showing up as +20, it says +32 when i cast it from the other player.

[Mtenda]

heres a cut

101: Spirit Warding I - 57:59 remaining. [+10STD, +10BoltDS]
103: Spirit Defense - 34:52 remaining. [+10DS]
107: Spirit Warding II - 58:55 remaining. [+25STD, +25BoltDS]
202: Spirit Shield - 11:11 remaining. [+10DS]
204: Unpresence - 11:15 remaining.
401: Elemental Defense I - 1h 01:26 remaining. [+5DS, +5ETD]
406: Elemental Defense II - 1h 01:29 remaining. [+10DS, +10ETD]
414: Elemental Defense III - 1h 01:32 remaining. [+20DS, +15ETD]
425: Elemental Targeting - 19:05 remaining. [+50AS, +50ECS]
430: Elemental Barrier - 19:08 remaining. [+37DS, +37ETD]
601: Mass Colors - 3h 32:59 remaining. [+10DS]
618: Mobility - 3h 30:44 remaining. [+20Dodging]
1019: Song of Mirrors - 7:02 remaining. [+50Dodging]
Renewal: Bard Renewal Cycle - 7:02 remaining.
Staunching: Sign of Staunching - 24:28 remaining.

Total: [+35STD, +35BoltDS, +102DS, +67ETD, +50AS, +50ECS, +70Dodging]

dont know why mobility is showing up as +20, it says +32 when i cast it from the other player.


Because it gives you a base 20 dodging ranks whereas when a ranger cast it they get a bonus for ranger spell ranks.

[Fatsix]

that would make sense. still under on the dodge vs shield ranks for an x large shield.

[Fallen]

Hey Fallen, do you have an alert system setup so it pages your cellphone when you someone posts on this forum? A response in 2 minutes is great. just fucking with you.

No, but that isn't a half bad idea. Would save me from compulsively clicking refresh, anyway.

[NocturnalRob]

No, but that isn't a half bad idea. Would save me from compulsively clicking refresh, anyway.
pshhh...n00b. F5, motherfucker. F5!!

http://www.csulb.edu/divisions/aa/academic_technology/av/equipment/resources/laptop/images/lcdkey_toshiba_satellite.jpg

[Fallen]

Huh. You learn something new every day.

[NocturnalRob]

i saw this right after you posted it. THANKS, F5!!

edit: fuck you, F5. i was stuck reading that retarded vulture empath thread that no one gives a shit about. set demeanor! NOW STFU!

[Fatsix]

how does weapon training (brawling) figure into defensive ds?

[droit]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=39403
That thread has some info you may want to read up on.

I'm sort of responding to a link within a link, but I figure it's better to ask here than bump the old thread.

Celephais, you gave the link of the program you used to parse that EBP research you did a few weeks ago and I definitely want to download it. I'm fairly computer-ignorant, so could you explain what the prerequisite .NET 2.0 is and how I can tell if I have it installed?

[Stunseed]

Acquiring agility/dodge/shield items. Every 2 agi = 1 DS, every 3 dodge = 2 DS.

[Fallen]

How many ranks of shield does it take to = 1 point of DS?

[droit]

Acquiring agility/dodge/shield items. Every 2 agi = 1 DS, every 3 dodge = 2 DS.

It's more complicated than that, but your numbers might be a good rule of thumb. The difference is that shield and armor penalties act as modifiers for the entire dodge equation, so with full plate and a tower shield, your base dodge would be multiplied by a factor of 0.41, whereas using a brig and a buckler would have a modifier of 0.75.


Dodge Ranks + (Agility Bonus) + (Intuition Bonus / 4) = Base Dodge

While:

Stance Modifier = 0.75 + (Stance / 4)

Shield Penalty is 0.8 with a small shield, 0.7 with a medium shield, 0.6 for a large shield, and 0.5 for a tower shield. Armor Hindrance is half the Action Penalty subtracted in percentage, so metal breastplate (Action Penalty of -20) would be -10% or 0.9.

The resulting formula:

Base Dodge × Stance Modifier × Shield Penalty × Armor Hindrance = Dodge DS

So say you had 101 dodge ranks, 25 AGI bonus and 20 INT, your base dodge would be 131. Assuming an offensive stance, the fullplate+tower character would receive only 40.2 dodge DS, whereas the brig+buckler character would get 73.7. Or on a rank by rank basis, 1 rank of dodge for the plate+tower guy equals 0.31 DS, and 1 rank of dodge for the brig+buckler guy equals 0.56 DS.

Here's the shield formula:

((Shield Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4))/(1.5)) = Base DS bonus

Base DS bonus × Stance Modifier × (1.0 + Shield Size Modifier) + 20 + Shield enchant = Final DS bonus
0.5 + (Stance/2) = Stance Modifier

where shield size modifiers are as follows:

* Small shield: -0.15
* Medium shield: 0.00
* Large shield: 0.15
* Tower shield: 0.30

So by the above formula, again assuming an offensive stance, each rank of shield use would give you 0.28 DS when using a buckler vs. 0.43 when using a tower shield.

EDIT: Fixed my math.

[Celephais]

I'm sort of responding to a link within a link, but I figure it's better to ask here than bump the old thread.

Celephais, you gave the link of the program you used to parse that EBP research you did a few weeks ago and I definitely want to download it. I'm fairly computer-ignorant, so could you explain what the prerequisite .NET 2.0 is and how I can tell if I have it installed?
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=333325FD-AE52-4E35-B531-508D977D32A6&displaylang=en

That'll either install .NET 3.5 or tell you you already have it. It's used by a lot of programs, odds are you'll need it eventually. (I forget what comes included w/ various service packs... pretty sure Vista already has 3.5)

You also need the Parallel extensions library, just copy this into your C:\Windows\Assembly folder http://forum.gsplayers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2294&d=1216870835

Then you just put a RegEx in the textbox, in my case I wanted all the lines of code that came after "A giant rat tries to bite you!" so my regex looked like:

A giant rat tries to bite you!
(?<Next>[A-Z,a-z, ,0-9,\,,-,\'\.\!\?]+)
When I click parse I can pick my log files (or multiple log files) and it'll spit out a ParseOut.csv file, which can be opened in excel and I used excel to calculate the percentages.

... umm, it's not as straitforward as pointing at a log file and it telling you EBP numbers.

(I don't know why I constantly want to say EVP, I know it's EBP but I say EVP all the time... arg)

[Fatsix]

it looks like 1 shield rank is = to 1 ds in offensive. but i am trying to acheive a higher guarded ds. i'd like to see how additional brawling ranks effect my defensive ds..

[Celephais]

it looks like 1 shield rank is = to 1 ds in offensive. but i am trying to acheive a higher guarded ds. i'd like to see how additional brawling ranks effect my defensive ds..
what did you train one rank and get one ds? train another and you won't get any DS ... it's not that simple. Please actually read what people post when they try to help you.

[Fallen]

Still, even .65 DS per rank is pretty damn nice. I will have to play around with enhancives and see if that holds true.

[Celephais]

Still, even .65 DS per rank is pretty damn nice. I will have to play around with enhancives and see if that holds true.
I'm pretty sure that number is for defensive stance (so good enough to say for guarded stance). Personally I don't think he's addressing the root of his problem, I doubt it's guarded DS that's getting him in trouble, it's likely either manuevers or pushdown DS.

[droit]

In guarded stance, each rank of shield use would bump up your DS by 0.51 with a buckler or 0.78 with a tower shield.

EDIT: Fixed.

[Celephais]

In guarded stance, each rank of shield use would bump up your DS by 0.77 with a buckler or 1.17 with a tower shield.
Where are you getting that value?

((Shield Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4))/(1.5)) = Base DS bonus
1 / 1.5 = 0.666 DS

Base DS bonus × Stance Modifier × (1.0 + Shield Size Modifier) + 20 + Shield enchant = Final DS bonus

0.666 x 0.9 x 1.3 = 0.78 DS per rank in guarded stance w/ a tower shield.

[Celephais]

No, the 0.65 for offensive. Stance modifier of 0.5 multiplied by a shield size modifier of 1.3 equals 0.65 per rank.
You forgot to divide by 1.5

[droit]

Whoops, Celephais is totally right. I misplaced the outer parentheses on this equation:

((Shield Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4))/(1.5)) = Base DS bonus

I thought only the STR and DEX were divided by 1.5, not the shield ranks too.

Went back and fixed the numbers. Good catch.

[droit]

Stupid order of operations.

[Fallen]

In guarded stance, each rank of shield use would bump up your DS by 0.51 with a buckler or 0.78 with a tower shield.

EDIT: Fixed.

Any idea what those numbers would be in offensive? I would do it myself but math makes me sad.

[droit]

So by the above formula, again assuming an offensive stance, each rank of shield use would give you 0.28 DS when using a buckler vs. 0.43 when using a tower shield.

EDIT: Fixed my math.

I went and fixed that part too.

[Fallen]

That is a healthy DS increase. I should start giving Stunseed a run for his money on those items.

[droit]

Parry DS = (Weapon Skill+(STR/4)+(DEX/4)) &#215; (0.20 + stance/2) + (stance &#215; 25)

So in guarded stance, 1 rank of weapon skill equals 0.6 DS.

...right? Now I'm all paranoid and second-guessing myself.

[Celephais]

Correct.

[Fatsix]

interesting. .6 ds per weapon rank. and .78 ds per shield rank (tower). each cost 10/0 per 2nd rank. so 30/0 per 2 ds. shitty. i think miu is 0/8? which would be 16/0.. looks like more miu ranks.... 102, 310, 712, 613, and others, here i come.