New Development

[Jumpkick]

What sort of interest is out there these days for an alternative to Gemstone IV in the genre of text-based fantasy games? I realize at this point people have spent 10+ years on their characters and I am wondering if that is past the point of people wanting to try something new in the same genre of game. I know there are already a couple games out there right now ( The Iron Realms games for example ) but what about a game that would contain heavily influences from Gemstone and thus would not be that far a departure from what you have already dedicated so much of your time to master.

[Khariz]

What sort of interest is out there these days for an alternative to Gemstone IV in the genre of text-based fantasy games? I realize at this point people have spent 10+ years on their characters and I am wondering if that is past the point of people wanting to try something new in the same genre of game. I know there are already a couple games out there right now ( The Iron Realms games for example ) but what about a game that would contain heavily influences from Gemstone and thus would not be that far a departure from what you have already dedicated so much of your time to master.

None.

[Revalos]

It has been tried several times before. Some alternatives even promised level equivalencies for characters that left Gemstone. I can't even remember the names of the ones that have tried offhand.

I was actually on Aeternity's (Aephir/Banthis' project) development team for a while about seven years ago. I still have all the documentation from it and could probably start another GS clone with it.

The problem really is that if people want to quit GS, they go play WoW or something like that, quitting GS to play another text based game (other than DR maybe) is fairly uncommon these days, IMHO. I'm not sure what would drive someone to leave GS that would still want elements of GS associated with it.

[Jumpkick]

I too was with Aephir when that project took place so many years back. I can certainly see what you mean about WoW these days and with the increase in Korean games being shoveled over there really does seem to be a small window for other games to show they even exist.

[Jumpkick]

I think it might be worth noting at this point I am not concerned about the overall financial impact ( not looking for a get rich quick scheme ). I am really just concerned about developing something that has at least some chance of getting a playerbase to allow for ideas and innovations to take place.

[Martaigne]

...did I meet either of you on Aeternity? I was around for a short while in 2001 but left due to personal issues with another member of staff.

[Jumpkick]

I can't even remember what my GM name was ... I am thinking probably Valic?

[Revalos]

...did I meet either of you on Aeternity? I was around for a short while in 2001 but left due to personal issues with another member of staff.

Kyrne here. By the time I got accepted there, The Great Purge/Aephir Quitting had already happened. What was left was dying fast, then one day...poof, no e-mails, nothing, the site disappears, then it became a street blowjob porn site...heh, that was funny as hell.


I think it might be worth noting at this point I am not concerned about the overall financial impact ( not looking for a get rich quick scheme ). I am really just concerned about developing something that has at least some chance of getting a playerbase to allow for ideas and innovations to take place.

Best bet these days is to try to get in on the ground floor with some graphics based MMORPG development. The next generation of those may finally have the ability to copy the things I like about GS (truly randomly generated items, alterations allowing for fine details, and continuous GM involvement in storylines) and get rid of the things I don't (grindtastic grind, professions, and a cannon so complex at this point, you'd have to be George Lucas to figure out how to stick to it).

I'm still upset about Heroes Journey and the way it is turning out (WoW clone par excellance) so I hope that some other company can figure out how to put their stuff together and create an addictive environment that they can suck $20 a month out of pockets of suckers like me.

[Mathari]

What sort of interest is out there these days for an alternative to Gemstone IV in the genre of text-based fantasy games? I realize at this point people have spent 10+ years on their characters and I am wondering if that is past the point of people wanting to try something new in the same genre of game. I know there are already a couple games out there right now ( The Iron Realms games for example ) but what about a game that would contain heavily influences from Gemstone and thus would not be that far a departure from what you have already dedicated so much of your time to master.
If it's free, TONS. If it costs less than GS, some. If it costs the same as (or more than) GS, none.

[waywardgs]

Didn't thalior's player try to start one? I remember playing the beta years ago... It showed a lot of promise.

[Martaigne]

Didn't thalior's player try to start one? I remember playing the beta years ago... It showed a lot of promise.

No. That was Realms of Exile/Unwritten Legends and the owner just used the name Thalior then shortened it to Thal later because of the confusion.

[GS4_HappyTimez]

Nothing will ever take Gemstone's place. Far too great with others providing just funny attempts.

[Makkah]

I was in for a few days on the Aeternity beta. I loved the idea of some of the races (Occian), but that game turned out pretty miserably. I'd love to play another MUD on the side...

[Cephalopod]

Holy shit, do NOT go to the Aephir's Den site. It is NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE.

[GS4_HappyTimez]

I think someone already clarified that earlier in the thread. Learn to read and mistakes like that won't happen.

[Cephalopod]

Agreed, I did miss the earlier mention of his site turning into street-blowjob porn. 1000 apologies.

[Jumpkick]

I guess I will start to put something together with some contacts I have and see what sort of interest can be generated. I'd love to see some alternative to Gemstone come online without the micro-transaction proposition of the Iron Realms games.

[Methais]

I was actually on Aeternity's (Aephir/Banthis' project) development team for a while about seven years ago.

Pretty sure Banthis wasn't in on Aeternity. Banthis fired Aephir or at least caused him to quit GS if I remember right.

[Moist Happenings]

Check out Dark and Shattered Lands sometime (www.dsl-mud.org) (http://www.dsl-mud.org%29). Back when Gemstone first started costing money, and I had none, a friend and I went searching for a suitable free MUD to replace it. At any rate, we settled on DSL because it was a pretty large RP base community with a lot of other interesting twists. It was Diku stock to start, but at this point it's its own codebase really. There are a lot of former Gemstone and Legends of Terris players there still, and it's one of the higher populated MUDs out there (100-200 people online most of the time)

I still play it every now and then when I get bored, but if you're looking to do research on some things that Gemstone or previous Gemstone players would be interested in, check it out.

Edit: Don't mention Gemstone or any other game if you log in there though on any public channel. They're very touchy about that. The Imm staff there makes the GS staff look like angels.

[Fallen]

What is the link to that webpage that rates MUDs? There are atleast 10 MUDs that rank higher than GS without a much larger active population. I have no idea if they are any good, and to what level of RP they have going on, but they could be worth a shot. Me? I spent WAY too long knowing the ins and outs of almost every aspect of this game to try to learn anything nearly as complicated.

[Moist Happenings]

What is the link to that webpage that rates MUDs? There are atleast 10 MUDs that rank higher than GS without a much larger active population. I have no idea if they are any good, and to what level of RP they have going on, but they could be worth a shot. Me? I spent WAY too long knowing the ins and outs of almost every aspect of this game to try to learn anything nearly as complicated.


www.mudconnector.com (http://www.mudconnector.com)

But of the top 10 in my opinion only DSL and 3-Kingdoms have anything that your average Gemstone player would enjoy in the same way as GS, or close. At least, those are the only two I've ever met anyone that used to play, and I've played most of those there on the current top 10 for decent periods of time over the years. Couple friends and I worked on developing a MUD at one point, and we all played a bunch of them for a while to get ideas, see what worked, what didn't, et cetera.

Also, Federation's always been fun, but it's a completely different kind of game.

Edit:

Just took a look at the top 10 there now. It's a little iffy, and will be for the next couple days. They reset the counter monthly, but it's usually the same 9 or 10 MUDs on the list every month. There are four or five on there that won't be in a week right now.

[Fallen]

You mean to tell me there are no other popular medieval Muds that are heavily RP based?

[Moist Happenings]

You mean to tell me there are no other popular medieval Muds that are heavily RP based?

Eh, there are, but that's not really the only factor that we looked for. Truth be told, there are very few MUDs anymore with more than 10 players on at any given point. The top ten list is pretty much it for 50+ players on average. Even then, a few ON the top ten list rarely have more than 20, like Federation. If ya wanna make a successful MUD, even a semi clone MUD, you take your research to the MUDs that have retained their playerbases over the years.

Most MUDs that were successful at the same time Gemstone was at its peak, like Legends of Terris, have lost their entire playerbase even though the game is now free to level 35 (relatively high for Terris). There were elements of that game that were incredibly fun, but the lack of updates, and in particular, the constraints to the systems in regards to other players are what killed it.

For as much trouble as CvC conflict causes in Gemstone, I think having it open has helped Gemstone retain its playerbase over the years in small part. Players don't generally like having so many constraints put on them without options. DSL was nice because it gives both. There's a Kingdom system where PvP is only done in arenas, or if you flag yourself for it, and a clan system, which is pvp all the time, with wars against other clans. The reason DSL was my suggestion was because it allowed for the best of both worlds, while making it easy for each of those worlds to interact and roleplay with each other. That's what's kept its playerbase over the years.

[Mathari]

Virtually all MUDs suck, in my opinion, especially in comparison with Simu games. Their typically automated (and bland) combat systems, lack of a playerbase, lack of RP, and unfocused development (lots of them just load themselves up with tons of features, races, classes, etc., but the emphasis is on quantity, not quality) make them pretty much unbearable. There are some notable exceptions (Shadows of Isildur is RP-heavy, does not have automated combat, and has focused development), but they're few and far between, and usually have their own problems (SoI, for example, has a low playerbase and is a bit too serious in my opinion: you have to submit an application for a character with a developed back-story, if you die once in the game, your character is gone for good, etc.; sometimes I just want to play a friggin' fantasy game and relax).

I guess that basically sums up why I still pay for GemStone. :shrug:

[Moist Happenings]

Virtually all MUDs suck, in my opinion, especially in comparison with Simu games. Their typically automated (and bland) combat systems, lack of a playerbase, lack of RP, and unfocused development (lots of them just load themselves up with tons of features, races, classes, etc., but the emphasis is on quantity, not quality) make them pretty much unbearable. There are some notable exceptions (Shadows of Isildur is RP-heavy, does not have automated combat, and has focused development), but they're few and far between, and usually have their own problems (SoI, for example, has a low playerbase and is a bit too serious in my opinion: you have to submit an application for a character with a developed back-story, if you die once in the game, your character is gone for good, etc.; sometimes I just want to play a friggin' fantasy game and relax).

I guess that basically sums up why I still pay for GemStone. :shrug:

QFT. The only game out of all the MUDs I've played that came close to giving me the same sort of satisfaction was DSL, and even it came up pretty far short.

Some go way too heavy, some go way too light, some go way too far trying to pump up their advertisement page on Mudconnector with "Number of Classes" and "Number of Races" and "Number of Rooms" that they really compromise the enjoyability of the game. The top 10 list is pretty much the list of all of 'em that got it right, kept updating, didn't try to do too much, and kept their players interested.

Also the Red Sox suck.

[Mathari]

http://www.topmudsites.com/ also has a reasonably good list, as far as MUDs go.

[Fallen]

What about Inferno? I know Starshadow left to be a GM on their Mud. It must be pretty decent.

[Fallen]

What sort of interest is out there these days for an alternative to Gemstone IV in the genre of text-based fantasy games? I realize at this point people have spent 10+ years on their characters and I am wondering if that is past the point of people wanting to try something new in the same genre of game. I know there are already a couple games out there right now ( The Iron Realms games for example ) but what about a game that would contain heavily influences from Gemstone and thus would not be that far a departure from what you have already dedicated so much of your time to master.

Oh, heh. Obvious question time. Have you tried Dragonrealms?

[Makkah]

Didn't Bestatte leave for Inferno too? I think that was one of the ones offering level transition from GS to it.

[Mathari]

Inferno's dead right now. It was when I went looking about a month ago, anyway.

[Moist Happenings]

Just did a quick search for Inferno.

Page went to adspace in 2006.

Couldn't have been THAT great.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060221172735/http://www.ke9.com/

[Mathari]

Here's a thread about Inferno from late 2008: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/tavern-blue-hand/5141-world-inferno.html

[Laccon]

Trade Wars FTW! although it is based upon space travel and such.....

[Jumpkick]

Oh, heh. Obvious question time. Have you tried Dragonrealms?

I have. I played Gemstone for about 12 years starting in 1997 and played Dragonrealms for about 1 at some point during those 12 years. I didn't care too much for the leveling and skilling functions in the game so it didn't really stick with me.

The problem I have with all the TopMudSites games is they are mostly all Diku derivitive games, sharing most of the same backend systems like combat / crafting / treasure / etc. They are all fine for a game to play when you are tired of Gemstone for awhile but for me, none of them have had any staying power. I think a big contributor to that is the fact that most of them are free ( or do a micro-transaction system for buying gold or skill points which i feel ruins the game ).

I want to create a game that people can enjoy as they once did when Gemstone was in its infancy, or at least when it made the move to AOL. Something that you can enjoy with the feeling that it is possible to explore something new and experience something for the first time. A big part of that for me is playing a game that has not already been conquered by a large portion of the current playerbase.

I think the idea of paying for a quality game helps make the game have quality. When a group of people are not getting paid to offer the service to its players, they tend to be less inclined to make sure the players are having fun and the game is generating quality focused ( not quantity focused ) content.

The question is, in this current time is a $9.95/mo text game destined to fail. Assuming what they create is of quality and run with compitent staff. This message board tends to house a lot of negativity, but it seems to be the largest group of people focused on a single genre of game that I enjoy myself.

[Fallen]

The thing is, Gemstone is pretty much as good as it is going to get MUD wise by the fact of its sheer size and history. Any MUD coming out is instantly at a disadvantage because of the what? 15+ years of coding GS has done? What kind of a game can hope to match that complexity. Sure, it might have 1 thing that GS doesn't, like advanced sailing mechanics, or mounted combat, but after you explore that *1* thing, that's it.

What are the main complaints about GS? Usually, the price. After that, what next? The lack of development at cap? The lack of capstone spells? The lack of support for a particular profession? Out of all those things, the only issue I see not going away is the price. If this current bunch of staffers get up to speed I can see development kicking into a high gear. It isn't out of the realm of possibility for every profession to have a Guru that cranks out as much work as Estild/Oscuro. Would that be enough to satisfy everyone? Probably not. This is a text-based game. One can only hope to get so much out of it.

[Jumpkick]

The thing is, Gemstone is pretty much as good as it is going to get MUD wise by the fact of its sheer size and history. Any MUD coming out is instantly at a disadvantage because of the what? 15+ years of coding GS has done? What kind of a game can hope to match that complexity. Sure, it might have 1 thing that GS doesn't, like advanced sailing mechanics, or mounted combat, but after you explore that *1* thing, that's it.

What are the main complaints about GS? Usually, the price. After that, what next? The lack of development at cap? The lack of capstone spells? The lack of support for a particular profession? Out of all those things, the only issue I see not going away is the price. If this current bunch of staffers get up to speed I can see development kicking into a high gear. It isn't out of the realm of possibility for every profession to have a Guru that cranks out as much work as Estild/Oscuro. Would that be enough to satisfy everyone? Probably not. This is a text-based game. One can only hope to get so much out of it.

I think the 20+ years of development can be a double edged sword. Sure you have a lot of thought that has gone into your game over the years and some truly engaging experiences. However, all those experiences have already been entertained by the majority of the playerbase. There doesn't seem to be ( for me at least ) a sense that i can do or be anything unique in a game that has existed for so long. I agree that a new game can't hope to match all the development that has happened over the lifetime of Gemstone but what I think you can offer is a sense of 'new and exciting adventures' for people to take part in.

Personally, I don't mind the standard pricing. However, given that most attention is paid to those paying for Platinum or Premium, you pretty much get the ass end when paying the standard price. The game becomes something where the person with the most money ( outside Gemstone ) can have the best experience inside the game. That removes a sense of emersion for myself.

[Fallen]

I think the 20+ years of development can be a double edged sword. Sure you have a lot of thought that has gone into your game over the years and some truly engaging experiences. However, all those experiences have already been entertained by the majority of the playerbase. There doesn't seem to be ( for me at least ) a sense that i can do or be anything unique in a game that has existed for so long. I agree that a new game can't hope to match all the development that has happened over the lifetime of Gemstone but what I think you can offer is a sense of 'new and exciting adventures' for people to take part in.

Personally, I don't mind the standard pricing. However, given that most attention is paid to those paying for Platinum or Premium, you pretty much get the ass end when paying the standard price. The game becomes something where the person with the most money ( outside Gemstone ) can have the best experience inside the game. That removes a sense of emersion for myself.

I suppose that is true if you equate "Best time" with high end gear, or pay festivals. Neither of which are required to enjoy the game IMO. Heck, if you work hard at it you can make a ton of silver merchanting, skinning, and getting lucky with the new treasure system. Short of the very best gear the game has to offer, it isn't hard IMO to get non-standard everything. It is when you want to go above 7x, or HCP/W does it start to get expensive.

That being said, I will grant you that if you grew up playing gemstone the "Newness" of the game will never be recaptured. People fly through new mechanics, and have releases even as large as The Guardians of Sunfist fully disected within a week or two. So really, the addition of an entire society, which likely took 6 months to a year minimum to code, was enjoyed for about 2-3 months before being seen as commonplace.

If people are playing Gemstone solely for new/improved mechanical releases, they are playing the wrong game IMO. If you don't have ties beyond that, and are looking to always be entertained by the next best thing, this game will grow stale. Fast. For the reasons you named. Most of us have done just about everything before. The long time players are either addicted to the grind, or in it for the roleplay..or atleast the nostalgia of the grind/roleplay.

The question is, how can staff hope to fix anything about this situation? The Adventurer's guild was a huge help in some regards, but in others it just makes you cap faster. The Cap is a frustrating experience. There is a reason many hardcore players never bother to reach it. The game ENDS at cap if hunting is your primary passtime. I would like for that to change, and perhaps someday it will. However, I don't think you can fault GS because at the moment that isn't the case.

A bit off the original topic, but I think if you're looking for an experience that has the depth AND the unfamiliarity of Gemstone I would say look for the oldest MUD you can find after GS, or give Dragonrealms another try. Finding/Building a new MUD doesn't sound like it will do the trick for long.

[CrystalTears]

I hear people all the time say they'll build their own MUD yet I haven't heard of any of them panning out or lasting long to even be known. It's a huge undertaking. There just isn't a market to have new text-based games coming in anymore.

[Jumpkick]

I hear people all the time say they'll build their own MUD yet I haven't heard of any of them panning out or lasting long to even be known. It's a huge undertaking. There just isn't a market to have new text-based games coming in anymore.

It certainly can be an enormous task but if you get a group of determined and qualified people, it can also be one of the most rewarding. As a professional developer that is challenge I find in pretty much every project I take on.

I believe that in order to be successful in this space you have to make your project visible from pretty quick in order to show interest in what your team is attempting to do. Too often groups try to fly under the radar and release some massive game that has everything Gemstone has to offer ( which is insane to even attempt such a thing from the ground up in a short period of time ).

[CrystalTears]

Even then it doesn't mean success. I remember Realms of Exile, which was in beta for what seemed like forever, had people playing with it from the beginning and kept seeking people to try it out. I played it a little and it had a lot of potential. I have no idea what happened to that game, and it had more hope than a lot of the ones out there right now.

[Some Rogue]

If RoE became Unwritten Legends like I think it did...it's still being developed and will never make it out of beta. I played UL for awhile and while it's more RP centric than most games, the mechanics of it just sucked imo. It's very cliquish and just was not the game for me.

[Revalos]

If RoE became Unwritten Legends like I think it did...it's still being developed and will never make it out of beta. I played UL for awhile and while it's more RP centric than most games, the mechanics of it just sucked imo. It's very cliquish and just was not the game for me.

Cliquish is exactly the right term when it comes to describing MUDs. What is great about GS is that those cliques that would normally have a MUD all to themselves have other cliques to interact with. Solhaven RPers, Icemule/Rift hunters, Landing merchants, RR isolationists, Teras barrel COLers, maybe the Elven Nations crazies even. All of those could have been their own MUD that attracted their own type of person to play. Yet in GS they are all there and interacting with each other, especially when storylines or merchants come around. That's what GS has that no other MUD is ever going to. They might succeed in building one of those realms, but I doubt they'd ever achieve all three.

And yes, Methais, I was remembering incorrectly, Banthis was the reason Aephir/Metaephor left, that was what was confusing me.

[Makkah]

Ah... the Banthis/Metaephor Saga. Good times. He had some cool ideas for Voln, fo' sho'

[mgoddess]

I was actually on Aeternity's (Aephir/Banthis' project) development team for a while about seven years ago. I still have all the documentation from it and could probably start another GS clone with it.


I too was with Aephir when that project took place so many years back. I can certainly see what you mean about WoW these days and with the increase in Korean games being shoveled over there really does seem to be a small window for other games to show they even exist.


...did I meet either of you on Aeternity? I was around for a short while in 2001 but left due to personal issues with another member of staff.


I was in for a few days on the Aeternity beta. I loved the idea of some of the races (Occian), but that game turned out pretty miserably. I'd love to play another MUD on the side...
Damn... I was in on play-testing Aeternity too. I can't for the life of me remember my character's name though. :/