Ambush and crit weighted weapons.

[Shimmerhands]

I have returned from a long time away and it is sad to say I need to learn some things all over it seems. My questions are this;

If I max my ambush training can I at some point stop using a crit weighted weapon because I will crit just as well with out the weapon weighting due to my ambush skill? I assume ,if the answer is yes, then I need to switch to a damage weighted weapon that flares.

If this is all true, is their a chart out there that tells you how many ambush skill levels equal a certain amount of crit weighting?

[Fallen]

I am by no means a square expert, but I believe no matter how skilled you are having atleast one crit weighted weapon would be a good idea. Some creatures have built in crit padding which can be a bitch to overcome when you want to have the best possible odds of killing it in one shot.

[Khariz]

I'll let Droit handle this one, since he and I just had long discussions on this. I'll notify him of this thread, unless he sees it first.

[droit]

Go ahead, Khariz. I am actually walking out the door to attend my Grandfather's funeral. I won't be back for a few days.

:(

[Khariz]

Go ahead, Khariz. I am actually walking out the door to attend my Grandfather's funeral. I won't be back for a few days.

:(

Doh.

Okay, well Fallen basically hit the nail on the head anyway.

The answer really depends on what type of weapon (against what type of armor) you are going to be ambushing with. It will surprise nobody to hear that I am in the "more weighting is always better" category.

Questions like "how many ambush skill levels equal a certain amount of crit weighting" always fail to take something very important into consideration. Endrolls aren't a constant. If you try to ambush something and it turns out it managed to slam into defensive stance, the standard weighting you get off of your ambushing isn't gonna do jack when you can't clear that <insert number here> that you need for a death crit.

I don't have a chart that shows the minimum endroll necessary for a crit-death per various body parts with various damage types, because it is difficult to make one with the randomized crit scheme of GS4.

The basic answer to your question is: You will never get to a point where every swing you make will have a better result than if you had crit weighting. You can, however, get to a point where every time you swing your blade at a critter in offensive stance, you will be sure to kill it (assuming you hit the body part you were aiming at). That magic number depends on what body part you hit, with what type of weapon.

Puncturing eyes and crushing head/necks are the two best ways to go if you are looking for instant death. Puncturing eyes is obviously more mechanically difficult, but for an OHE user, might be more reasonable (especially if you are fully doubled in ambush).

If you want me to be more specific or elaborate more using numbers, I can.

[Shimmerhands]

If you want me to be more specific or elaborate more using numbers, I can.

That would be great!

[Khariz]

It's tough to start this discussion from a baseline:


The critical divisor for an unarmored opponent is 5, so in order to inflict a level 1 critical, an attacker must deal 5 to 9 raw damage in the absence of weighting. Achieving ten raw damage can cause a level 2 critical, though the actual level of a critical will vary due to critical randomization.

Armor Group Critical Divisor
Robes 5
Leather 6
Scale 7
Chain 9
Plate 11

Okay, so using the Damage Factor of the weapon type, and the Crit Divisor of the armor type, you can determine the Level of the crit that you will deliver to a certain armor type based on the amount of damage that you do to the critter.

Certain types of damage cause a Death Critical at a lower threshold than others. So while you may need a rank 9 crit to kill something by hitting it in the chest, you only need a rank 5 crit to kill something if you CRUSH it in the neck.

So what you are looking for is the minimum endroll you can achieve to cause a death critical by hitting a certain part of the body with a certain weapon. The way crit-weighting is factored in to this is by adding "phantom damage" into the equation for the sake of calculating the critical. So say I swing a claidhmore at something. Claidhmores have 40 points of weighting, and if I get lucky and crit-randomization gives me all 20 points of phantom damage possible, I get to add 20 to the damage that I ACTUALLY dealt when calculating my crit.

So if I did 55 damage, the game will PRETEND that I did 75 and then factor the crit divisor from there for determination of crit rank. So again, alot depends on the Damage Factor of the weapon you are using, when deciding if you NEED crit weighting.

Here's a recent quote from Droit, which I think is fairly accurate:


With a dagger's DF vs. plate, you'd have to get a 220 endroll just to do a rank 1 eye crit. Then, assuming you hit the eye successfully, you'd still need at least 27 more points of combined raw damage and crit weighting to do a rank 4 crit (which is only fatal 50% of the time), or 36 to do a rank 5 (100%). Even then, there is still the very real possibility of having the final crit rank randomized down.

You're much better off with a handaxe to the head, IMO. Dagger ambushing versus plate class armors is really only viable at cap.

Pretty much every weapon would fare better. The numbers can be theoretically crunched for anything. Enrolls are the end all be all. If you are clearing 300+ endrolls on everything you attack, you don't need to be worried about crit-weighting. If you are clearing endrolls of 108-220, I'd seriously think about the benefits that weighting would afford you.

[Shimmerhands]

The numbers can be theoretically crunched for anything. Enrolls are the end all be all. If you are clearing 300+ endrolls on everything you attack, you don't need to be worried about crit-weighting. If you are clearing endrolls of 108-220, I'd seriously think about the benefits that weighting would afford you.

Very helpful indeed! I was reading the 2006 thread..

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21906

but alot can and does change in 1-2 years.

Thanks Khariz.

[Danical]

Questions like "how many ambush skill levels equal a certain amount of crit weighting" always fail to take something very important into consideration. Endrolls aren't a constant. If you try to ambush something and it turns out it managed to slam into defensive stance, the standard weighting you get off of your ambushing isn't gonna do jack when you can't clear that <insert number here> that you need for a death crit.

Generally, rogues will have enough ambush skill to push a creature to full offensive; you needn't worry about a creature going to defensive.