Mechanics questions

[HSB]

Looking for some more info from my more experienced roguish peers...

Having mastered Cheapshot in the guild, and tinkered with it a little bit... what are the more effective of the cheapshots in an actual combat situation? Which ones do you use / find the most helpful?

And is it easier to aim a dagger / stiletto? I know that people rave about poking out eyes, but at this point I still miss the body part I'm aiming for about 20% of the time, and I'd hate to do like 3 damage and be standing there with dagger in hand on a miss. If I switch to using a dagger, is it easier to aim / get the necessary crit rank to get a kill?

[Stretch]

Looking for some more info from my more experienced roguish peers...

Having mastered Cheapshot in the guild, and tinkered with it a little bit... what are the more effective of the cheapshots in an actual combat situation? Which ones do you use / find the most helpful?

Footstomp - occasionally useful when you want to put something in RT...but you better be way over leveled or 2x in CM

Templeshot - useless and doesn't actually work anyway

Nosetweak - useless and doesn't actually work anyway

Throatchop - great potential...but duration makes it useless

Kneebash - cheaper than sweep, works on more things, higher RT ceiling. Ding!

Swiftkick - useless with the new ambush mechanics


And is it easier to aim a dagger / stiletto? I know that people rave about poking out eyes, but at this point I still miss the body part I'm aiming for about 20% of the time, and I'd hate to do like 3 damage and be standing there with dagger in hand on a miss. If I switch to using a dagger, is it easier to aim / get the necessary crit rank to get a kill?

Depends on the armor and your level / training. I used a dagger exclusively at cap when I was sword / board. Short sword is a decent balance.

[Mtenda]

Looking for some more info from my more experienced roguish peers...

Having mastered Cheapshot in the guild, and tinkered with it a little bit... what are the more effective of the cheapshots in an actual combat situation? Which ones do you use / find the most helpful?

And is it easier to aim a dagger / stiletto? I know that people rave about poking out eyes, but at this point I still miss the body part I'm aiming for about 20% of the time, and I'd hate to do like 3 damage and be standing there with dagger in hand on a miss. If I switch to using a dagger, is it easier to aim / get the necessary crit rank to get a kill?

Don't worry about cheapshots. Just kill the damn thing.

I'm assuming that your rogue is relatively young if you are missing your body part 20% of the time? If your rogue is really young, I recommend picking up a claid, pwning, then fixskills when you can get your ambush bonus higher. Generally, the smaller the weapon, the easier it is to aim. However, if you miss and hit another body part then you might as well go to bed if you are using a dagger. This is why I don't like daggers or any other OHE for that matter. Poking out eyes is overrated. The most efficient one handed weapon for one shot kills while ambushing from hiding is the mace (unless you have an unusually low AS). If you absolutely must use an OHE, go with a handaxe or falchion IMO. The dagger might be better for eyeshots, but eyes are harder to hit and daggers slash to much to make them reliable. Speed is the only mechanical advantage I see for using a dagger. But haste imbeds are easy enough to stock in which case most weapons are the same in that aspect.

[HSB]

Footstomp - occasionally useful when you want to put something in RT...but you better be way over leveled or 2x in CM

Templeshot - useless and doesn't actually work anyway

Nosetweak - useless and doesn't actually work anyway

Throatchop - great potential...but duration makes it useless

Kneebash - cheaper than sweep, works on more things, higher RT ceiling. Ding!

Swiftkick - useless with the new ambush mechanics



Depends on the armor and your level / training. I used a dagger exclusively at cap when I was sword / board. Short sword is a decent balance.

Specifically, I guess, I'm currently 59 trains and am getting tired of getting wtfpwned by harbingers. I was perusing my never-used cheapshots, which were mastered about 15 trains ago, and wondered about throatchop to keep them from blowing me up with spells. I can sweep the things (and plan to try out kneebash now), hide, and get off an ambush, but they wear MBP and I swear I get a death crit (aiming for both eyes, head, and neck) maybe... 20% of the time? If they don't die, then I'm left with an angry non-stunned harbinger throwing spells. I was considering switching to a dagger for the eye shot, and wondering if I would have more success.

[droit]

Having recently switched to ambushing with a dagger with my capped ranger, I'm going to guess that you'd have difficulty critting harbs reliably. With a dagger's DF vs. plate, you'd have to get a 220 endroll just to do a rank 1 eye crit. Then, assuming you hit the eye successfully, you'd still need at least 27 more points of combined raw damage and crit weighting to do a rank 4 crit (which is only fatal 50% of the time), or 36 to do a rank 5 (100%). Even then, there is still the very real possibility of having the final crit rank randomized down.

You're much better off with a handaxe to the head, IMO. Dagger ambushing versus plate class armors is really only viable at cap.

[Stunseed]

Specifically, I guess, I'm currently 59 trains and am getting tired of getting wtfpwned by harbingers. I was perusing my never-used cheapshots, which were mastered about 15 trains ago, and wondered about throatchop to keep them from blowing me up with spells. I can sweep the things (and plan to try out kneebash now), hide, and get off an ambush, but they wear MBP and I swear I get a death crit (aiming for both eyes, head, and neck) maybe... 20% of the time? If they don't die, then I'm left with an angry non-stunned harbinger throwing spells. I was considering switching to a dagger for the eye shot, and wondering if I would have more success.


How much training in the Ambush skill do you have?

[HSB]

How much training in the Ambush skill do you have?

Ambush.............................| 222 122

I should say... I'm not working off of hard numbers when I say 20%, but I DO miss the part I aim for once every other critter or so. Guessing five ambushes per critter, that's more like a miss 10% of the time. Though of course it's higher when I'm swinging for eyes.

[droit]

Speed is the only mechanical advantage I see for using a dagger. But haste imbeds are easy enough to stock in which case most weapons are the same in that aspect.

Also, I wanted to address this point. Obviously speed is the main reason to use a smaller weapon instead of a heavier one, but I've found that the 2 seconds I save using my dagger instead of my handaxe increase my hunting efficiency more than the math would suggest.

Ambushing with a handaxe puts my total RT at 8 seconds per attack (hide + ambush). This is on par with the majority of (at least capped) creature RTs. It's almost turn-based; I swing, it swings, I swing, it swings, etc. If it's a creature that doesn't stun and I knock it down, it's able to get back up before I can take a shot at it prone. On the other hand, the 6 second RT of my dagger allows me to basically lap the creatures, often acting twice before they get a chance to react. I find this gives me a tactical advantage that makes the dagger a worthwhile weapon.

[Mtenda]

Also, I wanted to address this point. Obviously speed is the main reason to use a smaller weapon instead of a heavier one, but I've found that the 2 seconds I save using my dagger instead of my handaxe increase my hunting efficiency more than the math would suggest.

Ambushing with a handaxe puts my total RT at 8 seconds per attack (hide + ambush). This is on par with the majority of (at least capped) creature RTs. It's almost turn-based; I swing, it swings, I swing, it swings, etc. If it's a creature that doesn't stun and I knock it down, it's able to get back up before I can take a shot at it prone. On the other hand, the 6 second RT of my dagger allows me to basically lap the creatures, often acting twice before they get a chance to react. I find this to give me a tactical advantage that makes the dagger a worthwhile weapon.

I was speaking from the perspective of having haste active, and using a maul with plenty of difference in my AS/AVD vs. my opponent. So I don't need a second swing most of the time because I go right for the head on my first shot. Though I realize that not everyone has those luxuries.

[droit]

Still, even when using a haste imbed, you're looking at a 5 second hide+ambush with the handaxe versus a 3 second hide+ambush with the dagger. That's what, 140% faster? If you've got the skill to make each of those a killing blow, I'd say the dagger wins.

In the interest of full disclosure, let me say that I'm not quite at that skill level yet. I only recently started taking ambush from 1x to 2x, so my crit weighting isn't always enough to one-shot things in full plate. Anything in a lower armor group is dead instantly, but it often takes a couple tries on warrior Grimswarm, for example. Soon, though. Soon...

EDIT: Err..I was responding to something Mtenda edited out in his previous post (cheater!). Wait, do you use a handaxe or maul? I could have sworn you said handaxe before.

[Mtenda]

Still, even when using a haste imbed, you're looking at a 5 second hide+ambush with the handaxe versus a 3 second hide+ambush with the dagger. That's what, 140% faster? If you've got the skill to make each of those a killing blow, I'd say the dagger wins.

In the interest of full disclosure, let me say that I'm not quite at that skill level yet. I only recently started taking ambush from 1x to 2x, so my crit weighting isn't always enough to one-shot things in full plate. Anything in a lower armor group is dead instantly, but it often takes a couple tries on warrior Grimswarm, for example. Soon, though. Soon...

1 second to hide...if i'm not already hidden when i come across the creature....plus 3 seconds to ambush the maul.....you cannot lower ambush round time below 3 seconds so it's exactly the same with a dagger right?

I should also note in the interest of full disclosure that I am ambushing a maul in 6 seconds standard with a half-elf. For humans and such it would be 7 seconds without agidex enhancives.

[Mtenda]

Still, even when using a haste imbed, you're looking at a 5 second hide+ambush with the handaxe versus a 3 second hide+ambush with the dagger. That's what, 140% faster? If you've got the skill to make each of those a killing blow, I'd say the dagger wins.

In the interest of full disclosure, let me say that I'm not quite at that skill level yet. I only recently started taking ambush from 1x to 2x, so my crit weighting isn't always enough to one-shot things in full plate. Anything in a lower armor group is dead instantly, but it often takes a couple tries on warrior Grimswarm, for example. Soon, though. Soon...

EDIT: Err..I was responding to something Mtenda edited out in his previous post (cheater!). Wait, do you use a handaxe or maul? I could have sworn you said handaxe before.

Sorry about that...I am full of typos and edits today. I was speaking hypothetically about using a handaxe. My ambushers don't use OHEs.

[droit]

1 second to hide...if i'm not already hidden when i come across the creature....plus 3 seconds to ambush the maul.....you cannot lower ambush round time below 3 seconds so it's exactly the same with a dagger right?

Actually, you're half right. I mistakenly thought that haste imbeds only reduced a 6 RT to 4 instead of 3. The dagger is still one second faster at 2 (the minimum hasted RT is 1), but the difference is less.

I tend to only use haste imbeds when necessary instead of having them active all the time, so I guess that's where our strategies diverge. In the case of being hasted constantly, the maul would definitely have a greater advantage.

[Mtenda]

Actually, you're half right. I mistakenly thought that haste imbeds only reduced a 6 RT to 4 instead of 3. The dagger is still one second faster at 2 (the minimum hasted RT is 1), but the difference is less.

I tend to only use haste imbeds when necessary instead of having them active all the time, so I guess that's where our strategies diverge. In the case of being hasted constantly, the maul would definitely have a greater advantage.

I stand corrected....I coulda swore that you could not go below 3 seconds on an ambush for haste rt, regardless of weapon...even with rediculous air lore training. And that changes my end of debate entirely because I was speaking originally about using a handaxe.

[droit]

I stand corrected....I coulda swore that you could not go below 3 seconds on an ambush for haste rt, regardless of weapon...even with rediculous air lore training. And that changes my end of debate entirely because I was speaking originally about using a handaxe.

Naw. If we were smart, we'd just go for 1 second hasted longbow shots to the eyes from the open. But what do we really have if not our dignity?

[Xeromist]

Harbingers were a headache for me to kill because of their speed; dagger ambushing vs. plate at that level is a bit of a gamble, but harbs were fast enough to cast and get their attack in if you use anything much heavier. They weren't stunnable by normal means, and they healed themselves. I think I might have completed maybe 2 bounties involving harbingers ever. I personally would find something else to hunt.

[HSB]

Harbingers were a headache for me to kill because of their speed; dagger ambushing vs. plate at that level is a bit of a gamble, but harbs were fast enough to cast and get their attack in if you use anything much heavier. They weren't stunnable by normal means, and they healed themselves. I think I might have completed maybe 2 bounties involving harbingers ever. I personally would find something else to hunt.

I definitely only venture out there when the guild sends me. Otherwise it's Illoke and Troll Kings all the way. :medieval:

[SolitareConfinement]

I definitely only venture out there when the guild sends me. Otherwise it's Illoke and Troll Kings all the way. :medieval:

enjoy TK's with that dagger :)