Heartless or not?

[GSLeloo]

Ok here is the background information that led to me being called heartless...

We were sitting in Holocaust studies and discussing Jews in Poland and Jews in Germany pre-WWII. It was observed that the Jews in Poland tended to segregate themselves from the rest of the citizens of that country.

Our teacher then related it to current times by saying our french teacher (the only Jewish person in our entire high school) chose to raise her children in Fairlawn so they could live in a predominantly Jewish town.

Now here's where I was a bit irked. First of all, my father grew up in Fairlawn and being not only not Jewish, but having a british accent, and being new he was teased by them. Of course my father got very tall very fast so they couldn't really do anything to him but still it's not like they were accepting of other races in their town.

So then it became back to the segregation thing and how like... it just seems that they want to keep themselves separate from everyone else. So I raised my hand and just said that sometimes it annoys me that a lot of people make it seem as if the holocaust was so horrible (which it was) and like "the poor Jews" but in my opinion these things have happened hundreds of times. The slaves, the american indians, tribes in Africa, even I guess Iraq. I guess it just bothers me that it seems like we should just forget all the other times this happened and focus only on the one that happened to the Jewish population.

I actually said it a lot nicer than that, a lot more politically correct and not quite as harsh sounding... but anyway, then my friend Jes says "You're heartless." And no, she's not Jewish.

So was my statement really that heartless?

No.

[Mint]

You were in Holocaust studies no?

[Snapp]

Nah, you're not heartless by any means... the fact you made this topic because it was bothering you proves that. ;) It's just a sensitive subject for a lot of people... and I agree with you.

[Souzy]

I would've said, "If I'm heartless, then you're a fuckin' moron, biaaatch." Really, I would've said that, you should see me with my friends.

[GSLeloo]

I just don't think that the Holocaust gives them a special right to anything or that we should ignore the fact that this shit happened a thousand times more. Here's a clip of my friend and I discussing it...


GSLeloo (10:44:57 PM): I simply said that it annoys me that the Jews always cry over the holocaust as if that was the only one of its kind but it has happened to hundreds of races all over the world.
???? (10:46:08 PM): Oh, well, that annoys me, too, but then, it annoys me when blacks bitch about slavery, native americans bitch about whatever they bitch about, and women bitch about the shit women bitch about.
GSLeloo (10:49:45 PM): It just feels like people act like the jews are the only ones who have experienced it and we should make a special acceptance to them
???? (10:50:28 PM): Yeah, like the way blacks are given special stuff by way of affirmitive action and college acceptance quotas, you mean?
GSLeloo (10:50:45 PM): Yes
???? (10:51:31 PM): WEll, yeah, I can agree with you there. I don't think anyone should be treated special based on their race or religion.
???? (10:51:46 PM): Or sex, or sexual orientation, for that matter.
GSLeloo (10:52:11 PM): I am sorry but unless you are born with a brain deficiency then I don't think someone should wipe your ass.
???? (10:52:28 PM): ....Dude that should be a shirt. o_O
GSLeloo (10:52:39 PM): Why...
???? (10:52:56 PM): Because it just sounds like something *ID* say.
GSLeloo (10:53:05 PM): lol

[Mint]

This is too close to a political thread so bowing out. Sorry.

[Sean]

Yes and no ... You're in a class called holocaust studies class and its not even what a month old? You have a lot more time through the semester to get to other areas of genocide. Unless im making a wrong asusmption about what the class is about, im just going by what I read in your post. I do think it's a bit heartless however to say hey lets not talk about these people anymore I want to talk about these people instead.

[GSLeloo]

No I wasn't saying I didn't want to discuss them.

The class is Human Behavior using the Holocaust as a case study. It's a full year course. We've been doing human nature, human responsibility and such to set up to understand why what happened in Germany happened. we just finished WWI and pre-WWI. I wasn't saying that I don't want to talk about it, I wasn't truly relating it to that class but the world in general and how a lot of... I really hate to say it but Jews make it seem like the Holocaust was worse than anything that has ever been done in history.




Off topic, wasn't there some leader in Italy or Spain a bit before WWII that murdered thousands or millions of people? Not sure, just checking.

[Mint]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
... I really hate to say it but Jews make it seem like the Holocaust was worse than anything that has ever been done in history.


I dont know Leloo, the planned systematic elimination of an entire group of people seems pretty damn awful to me.

[Myshel]

Your talking about 3 million people being killed. Not a couple of hundred thousand. 3 million.

[Pallon]

OMG NAZI PIG

nah, but you have to admit that in terms of scale, organization, and the time in which it was accomplished, the holocaust pretty much topped everything

[Mint]

Originally posted by Myshel
Your talking about 3 million people being killed. Not a couple of hundred thousand. 3 million.

bit more than that actually:

'Modern research has begun to deal more extensively with the suffering of other victims of the Nazi genocide. For example, homosexuals, Gypsies, prisoners of war, Russians, Poles, Catholic priests, Jehovah's Witnesses and others were more or less systematically murdered as the Holocaust continued. By the end of the war, as many as 6 million of these people had been killed, along with between 5 and 6 million Jews. '

Edited to give credit to the quote: http://www.holocaust-history.org/


[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Mint]

[GSLeloo]

Miss Ruege said today, it wasn't exactly that it was personal. He was a madman and in his head the Jews were in the way of where his master race was supposed to live. And the Polish were below his race and taking up living space so they should be moved and enslaved to work for the Aryan's.

Don't forget that he also killed gypsies and mentally retarded people and insane people.

And as for destroying races, do not forget what we did to the Native Americans and the Africans we made our slaves. Also the Hutsus and the Titsus (names may be spelled horribly wrong) that had their own genocide. People were locked in churches by their own people and then had bulldozers crush the churches and kill all those inside. There were many many genocides throughout history. So to specifically ignore all the others as if they are no match for the Holocaust.. I think that's wrong.

[Sean]

slavery != genocide

both are horrible things but i believe for something to be considered a holocaust genocide has to be a factor.

[GSLeloo]

And yeah, six and a half million I think was the number. Was it 3 million children?

I am not saying at all that it wasn't a horrific event. I fully believe it is. I chose to be in Holocaust studies because I wanted to study it and see why and how it happened. But I am not talking about the history now. I am talking about the people today who for some reason make it seem like the holocaust was the only event that ever happened like that.

[Mint]

5......or......6......MILLION Leloo. This makes every other horrible historical and present day atrocity PALE in comparison.

[Mint]

and I am really mad I let myself get sucked into this

[GSLeloo]

How many millions of Africans do you think died within the three hundred years we had them as slaves? So if the number of deaths matter do the numbers of years also matter? Three hundred verses ten?

[Sean]

No one was deliberitly trying to remove the slaves from the face of the planet .. that would be counter productive. But to also imply no one talks about slavery, especially in an educational setting, in my opinion is a rather stupid thing to say anyway. I mean hell it seems like all we talked about in february was Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth and various other slavery based topics.


[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Tijay]

[Mint]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
How many millions of Africans do you think died within the three hundred years we had them as slaves? So if the number of deaths matter do the numbers of years also matter? Three hundred verses ten?

You know Leloo, you are trying to encompass a subject that countless scholars have spent their entire lives on and I really cant answer your questions. I am no philosopher or educator. I should not have gotten involved. You have opened a whole can of worms here though that few are going to be able to answer to your satisfaction.

[GSLeloo]

I guess it's just like... in my opinion it seems like people of all races think simply because they are born into a certain race that they deserve something the others don't. Or that they are above others or below or whatever. In my opinion I think that we are all equal and we all should have to work for what we get. Unless you were in that concentration camp or you were a slave or you were taken from your home lands, I don't think you should be able to use events from the past to cover yourself now or to help yourself now or to make yourself special somehow... I just think you should be determined by you, not your biological past.

Since we're dealing with facts, talk about the 20 million or so people Stalin had exterminated during the same time frame. Genocidal acts are not uncommon to man and have happened numerous times throughout history on differing scales and magnitutudes.

Furthermore, the overall intent does not diminish in any fashion the number of people who died as a direct result of some actions. Just because the purpose of slavery wasn't the systematic extermination of africans, does not mean that it was any less heinous or evil on any cosmic scales.

For the question iniitally posed: I too grow tired of groups who continually bemoan themselves because of some atrocity or wrong their ancestors might have experienced how many years ago. Complaining about slavery, the holocaust, or any other similar incident is irrelevent, pointless and a complete waste of time. Should they be forgotten? By no means, they should always be rememebered so people can strive hard to ensure that it never happens again, but there is a difference between intellectual or historical discussion and bitching.

That said i have probaly have more respect for the jewish persuation then any other in this world.

[Mint]

Please itemize these things that 'other' races expect?

edited to say: directed at Leloo


[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Mint]

[GSLeloo]

Mwahaha RangerD1 got it! I KNEW there was someone who murdered more than the holocaust in that timeframe, I just was wary to quote it without knowing.

And what other races want was what my friend said, affirmitive action. Plus that damn wall going up in Israel pisses me off.

[Myshel]

Yea I'm kind of curious what perks you think the jews expect?

[GSLeloo]

It's not perks. My father said it very well but I don't know the words he used... he said that the Jews are just as hateful towards other races. They have words for white people and words for whites that date blacks. And they use these words (they used them on him) but if you say the word.. kike? kyke? (No idea, he said it) they have a fit and it's anti-semitism and they protest you. To me that's hypocrisy.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
How many millions of Africans do you think died within the three hundred years we had them as slaves? So if the number of deaths matter do the numbers of years also matter? Three hundred verses ten?

Yes, the span of time the events take place in DO change the impact they have.

Lets take for example, 160K, the approximate number of deaths caused by lung cancer in the US for the year 1998.

We are all aware of the possibility of developing lung cancer and most know someone or know of someone who suffered from it.

Lets assume that suddenly we compress 10 years of fatlities into one and we lose 1.6 million citizens....or worse we compress 300 years as used in your example we see a loss of 48 MILLION.

A sizable difference in the percentage of the population and one that goes a lot farther toward having the chance to wipe out a population.

[Bobmuhthol]

Heartless is an understatement.

If you could explain wtf you're talking about in one sentence I'd be very happy.

Its not about tangible perks. However, i could easily point to different movements for some form of mass reparations. But i believe the things leloo is referring to are the social and personal sympathy that is expected from members of a certain race. I.e. Some black people feel that a certain level of respect and recognition is due by default because of the harash conditions their forebearers had to endure. Not saying that such a thing is undeserved or pernicious, but that its there.

[Myshel]

You know, just an observation, but it seems like your taking your father's dislike of jews as your own. Why don't you go out and meet some jews, perhaps you will meet one who's grandparents survived the war. They can tell you how it affected them. Or even ask them what "perks" are associated with having 6 million people of their faith wiped out. I'm not jewish but it affected me as human being.

[Sean]

I demand rice crispey treats!

[Skirmisher]

And in answer to your initial question of why the Holocaust is spoken of so much I submit the following.

The major reasons the Holocaust gets more play than the other atrocities commited by humankind in our history are

A) The wonderful record keeping by our anal friends in the German government.

B) The explosion of mass media which allows so many more people at the lower levels of society to be "aware" of what happens in the world.

C) The fact that the allies won. If they had lost then of course the holocaust would have been buried much like the US glossed over the abuse and near extermination of the native american indian population.

Thankfully the axis lost and so the horrors commited have been made known and help us remember the things that humans are capable of when we dehumanize an enemy to the point where they truly do become less than a human but some sort of animal in need of being put down.

Rangers example of the number of people who died in the USSR under Stalin are a perfect example.

The US was his ally during the war so of course we were not about to show things that would paint them in a bad light. Heck, the US played up the ferocious fighting spirit of our Russian allies in film news reels during the war.

After the war, the Russians would be understandably .....reluctant to help any research into such losses of people and most especialy how many were not killed by German hands, but by Russian.

The victors are the ones that get to write history...and often, only the passage of time can help us see the things that occured with the clarity needed to see them as they truly were.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Skirmisher cause I really can't seem to spell during]

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Skirmisher]

[Artha]

Heartless. Your examples are off too. Any Iraqis we killed weren't rounded up because they were Persian and stuck in a concentration camp to work until they starved, caught a disease, or were 'operated' on.

Only two dictators come close to Hitler, and they are Stalin and Pol Pot.

[Speaker]

>>I just don't think that the Holocaust gives them a special right to anything or that we should ignore the fact that this shit happened a thousand times more.<<

I don't think that anyone expects you to treat Jews differently because of the Holocuast. No one is asking you to ignore the other genocidal acts that have taken place in the world either. Bottom line is they're all bad, and they all shouldn't happen again.

But, it is a Holocaust class and though I don't believe you were trying to dimiish it, it might have come across that way, and I can certainly understand why.

The argument that one genocide is worse than another doesn't really work, and I don't think a Holocaust studies class is ever trying to make that argument.

-Speaker

[GSLeloo]

I do not take my fathers views on anything. I do not take anyone's views on anything. I sit and listen to all sides and formulate my own ideas and question. My french teacher is jewish and she did make us do holocaust things every single year. We went to France and she sobbed hysterically when she saw a swastika in Spain and I comforted her. I went to a Jewish YMCA and listened to a survivor of the holocaust speak.

I have also heard the stories of what happens in Israel on both sides. News reports and what people say. I simply use my father as a case study.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Mint
You have opened a whole can of worms here though that few are going to be able to answer to your satisfaction.

Okay due mostly to Skirmisher and Ranger I hereby retract this statement.

[Sean]

is it just me or does jewish ymca make anyone else chuckle?

why, is it okay to use your father as a case study? because you have the "facts" and know about it. your teacher, in my opinion, is just using a historical occurance that was well documented so it's easier to discuss "fact."

[GSLeloo]

Oh I didn't mean what WE did to Iraq. I have not studied Iraq at all but I have been told of what their leader did to them. But that I cannot confirm

Artha, I was in no way saying that the Holocaust was not absolutely disgusting and it makes me angry that no one stopped it before it escalated to such a point. No one should have died, not like that. No one should have gone through what those people did. But over sixty years later, those who have never been in Germany, never stepped foot into a concentration camp, should they deserve a certain liscence above all others/

I just don't think it's right to say that if I say something bad about them that they should be given more consideration than if they said something of equal purpose to me. That is my issue. I don't like double standards.

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by Tijay
is it just me or does jewish ymca make anyone else chuckle?

why, is it okay to use your father as a case study? because you have the "facts" and know about it. your teacher, in my opinion, is just using a historical occurance that was well documented so it's easier to discuss "fact."

I am not using him to say all Jewish people are horrible and racist. My teacher, although one-sided, I don't think she ever would've spoken out against anyone ever.

I am simply trying to say that there are as many racists that are Jews as there are that are Scottish, Italian, british, HUMAN. So why does one group get more consideration than the other?

[GSLeloo]

And it was a Jewish YMCA.... you had to be Jewish to be a member. We were there to see an exhibit from the Holocaust Museum in Washington and hear the man speak.

[HarmNone]

I do not think you were heartless at all, Leloo. I think, perhaps, you were looking at the subject matter from a different perspective than that of your friend.

It is through the airing of different views that the various facets of the Holocaust and other such horrors can better be brought forth for analysis. That is what will make the class more interesting and more productive. :)

HarmNone

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
And as for destroying races, do not forget what we did to the Native Americans and the Africans we made our slaves. Wow, you must be pretty old to have had slaves or oppressed the native Americans.

All kidding aside, however:
in my opinion it seems like people of all races think simply because they are born into a certain race that they deserve something the others don't. You hit the nail on the head with that one. While the Holocaust basically trumps everything if in terms of perception alone, there are many examples of the behavior you describe.

I went to a Jewish YMCA YMCA stands for Young Men's Christian Association. That's what Tijay was giggling about. You're not heartless. Anyone who construed you as such was operating within faulty parameters.

p.s. putting "Mwahaha" in a thread about murderous dictators and madmen is a bit... odd.

[Sean]

after reading latrinsorms post something popped out at me that is actually kind of a curious question?

why is it not okay to say we suffered (this can be any ethnic or relgious group etc.) but it is okay to say we oppressed (insert group here). you are making an arguement saying i shouldn't beable to draw upon my family history for support or sympathy. but you use we freely when discussing what happened in the past that you and i did not take part in. i dunno i guess i found it a bit itnerest even though its a bit off topic and most people, myself included have a habit of doing it.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Tijay]

[Pierat]

Being half jewish and "looking" a little jewish (I have dark hair and a Jewish last name, no my nose isnt big ::grumble::) I would like to say I would be upset if you called me a kyke... lol....
2 years ago in college I was asleep early on a friday night.... My girlfriend was over and we were woken up to someone kicking my door repeatidly and yelling free bagels in the jews room....
Someone a few days before running for class president gave out bagels and wrote on the doors free bagels.
Of cource I ran out the door with my lacrosse stick ready to knock the guys skull in but he ran off.
Now, was I pissed because he called me a jew? No, I was pissed because he was being a racist sob.
If my friend, or even someone I didnt know who was black next door had their door kicked at, and someone yelled the "N" word? Would I be out there in my boxer shorts with my stick ready to help bash the kids skull in?

Yes.

Your coming off as heartless because as other people pointed out, its the angle of attack.
Your not wrong at all, but no ones asking for special treatment, I doubt many people in your class or that you will ever meet actually were involved in the holocost (as in a survivor)
But when you say "so what" even if your saying so what in comparrison to other events, people dont hear the "in comparrison" they just hear the so what, cause thats how people are.
I work with hundreds of kids, kids dont care if your jewish. Kids dont care if your black or anything, they really dont. They mimic adults, and they pick on kids because theyre different. If ones kids brittish, he gets picked on.... If one kids a jewish person, he gets picked on. The short kids a midget, the tall kids a freak...The world has no mercy on anyone if your different.
Any jewish person who tells you jews are perfect and we went through this so you have no right to say were not perfect is just a jackass which there are plenty of in this world or all races, creeds and religions.
In this day and age, we need to "try" to be a little sensitive to all races, groups, creeds, and religions..... why? Not because they dealt with this or that, its because of kids.
Your sharing some of your fathers thoughts. I just realized all my life ive hated opera. Why? Yah know? I dont think ive ever listened to it, I just remember my dad always hating it. Its kids we need to worry about and the more we can just chill out and listen to what happened but try not to insult one another over it and have a little sympathy for everyone, in time, things will get better.

[Myshel]

Leeloo I dont think your heartless, your questioning and I think thats good. What I believe is what happened was the first modern genocide that was on tv and pictured so vividly. Seeing with our own eyes always makes more of an impact that what we read in history books. Like Pol pot, or Stalin's secret genocide. That alot of the jew that survived immigrated to the States also made us all aware. Just like what happened in Cambodia, all the immigrants made us aware. Did we help them to settle here, get jobs, gave them homes because of what happened to them. Yes we did, should we have? I believe so. As long as these things are the front page of the newspapers and being taught in HS and colleges, hopefully as we as a people become more enlightened then the probability of it being repeated becomes less and less.
If polictical leaders see what happened to Hilter and Pol Pot, and Saddam, the consequenses of genocide become less attractive.
As far as the Jews, people of the Jewish faith have been persecuted for thousands of years. Its woven into their heritage and beliefs. I think they can handle it.

Originally posted by GSLeloo

Don't forget that he also killed gypsies and mentally retarded people and insane people.


He tried to kill the mentally retarted but there was public outcry against it and it was put to a stop.

One Stalin's "work" on the people in his country were not directed at one single ethnic group or race, it was directed at any and all who opposed his power and rule so it does not apply in the same sense that what Hitler did does.

The Reason the Holocaust is such an issue is There are people who went through it who are still alive. They remember exactly what happened and lived through the horrid things that were done. Show me one slave, Show me one American Indian etc. The things people did 200-300 years ago cannot in any way be related to what happened today. The education back then was different people did not know any better than to take the prejudice of their peers as their own. In today's world Leloo the European population as well as the American population is far better educated and for the people to allow such things to happen is disgusting

Another reason it is an issue is if you look back at the history of the Jewish, they have always been a target for oppression or murder just because they are Jewish.

I had a gentlemen come to one of my classes and speak, he was a survivor, the only one of his family of 7 that he knows of to live through it... Things like that are why it is still such an issue because the people are still around, In my view unlike others here your comments were heartless, you need to sit back and think about what you said.... What's the big deal it has happened to others? You should feel the same for all of those who have died because of who they were born. And you learning about this now will help to prevent things like that from ever happening again.

[i remember halloween]

too many mindless idiots are caught up in this whole politically correct fad. don't let idiots trick you into thinking a logically through out theory is racist or prejudice. if you can substantiate it at least a little then it isn't unfounded.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Mwahaha RangerD1 got it! I KNEW there was someone who murdered more than the holocaust in that timeframe, I just was wary to quote it without knowing.


There have been plenty. In Bosnia, there was genocidal programs aplenty. The Indonesian Government are pretty much obliterating the East Timorians (if thats what they would be called in East Timor). The World sat and watch students in Chianamin (sp?) square killed by the Chinese Government, the Russians in Afghanistan and Czechnia, the Iraqi slaughter of the Kurds and the British and Americans in Iraq over the past ten years. It happens a lot. Some of which we agree is bad, some of which we do something about.

Just because it happens to others, doesnt make it any less tragic than what happened to the Jews. They say we should remember what happened during the Holocaust so it never happens again, but it does...again and again and again.


And what other races want was what my friend said, affirmitive action. Plus that damn wall going up in Israel pisses me off.

People dont want affirmative action, they want the same llife chances as the masses. They dont want to be disadvantaged because they are Black, Jewish, Female, Gay, Disabled etc.

Affirmative action is just a way of making sure that so of the prejudices that exist, dont stop those in question from getting to interview etc. I dont personally believe its the best way, but I understand why it is there.

And Leloo, I believe that you raised a valid point in your class and your friend was at fault for making it personal. If we sit and suck up everything that teachers/parents/adults tell us without questioning it, then we will end up as stupid as they are.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by The Edine

He tried to kill the mentally retarted but there was public outcry against it and it was put to a stop.

No way!

A public outcry in Nazi Germany?
They were gassing their neighbours! Who do you think was gonna stand up to them?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Mint
5......or......6......MILLION Leloo. This makes every other horrible historical and present day atrocity PALE in comparison.

Stalin killed 20 million people.
Hitler killed 60 million through WWII. Less than 1/2 of these were Jews.
King Leopold II of Belgium killed 15 million.

15 million children die every year from preventable causes, usually starvation.

Countless, literally, millions are left to fates of child abuse, pedophilism, abortion, and innumerable acts of cruelity.

Sounds to me like the main consensus is "People are still around who lived through it, which is why it is so bad."

Well, you know what, TOUGH SHIT!

You want to see someone being hurt? Go find a pedophile website where some 4 year old from syberia is being forcibly raped by her father.

Hell this isn't about children.

My point is that there are TONS of tragedies in history. Leloo's point was perfect. My interpertation of "perk" is the fact that we are still talking about it as if it is the worst thing in the world when shit that goes on RIGHT NOW is just as bad.

Oh but the number of people who died isn't as great. DOES IT MATTER? Christ!

What we did in Iraq, or Contra, or the women being sold into prostitution in Israil isn't AS BAD or doesn't diserve the same attention as the poor holocost survivor because, why?

The truth is, there is no reason why. Being heartless is looking at the death of 30m+ Jews and saying, that is horrible, but watching children starve to death, or knowing that over 3000+ difference cultures, each with their own race, langugage, heritage, history, and socio-economic system (yes, these are the American Indians) have been whipped out of existance.

You cry because there is someone left to tell of the horror. I cry because there will never be anyone again.

Bottom Line: Heartful. Your heart was for those who also suffered, and those who continue to suffer. God bless you.

[GSLeloo]

Pierat one thing, what exactly is a kyke because I have no idea. And what they did to you was horrible. My whole thing is like... say you were calling one of those people horrible names (I'm not saying you were at all) and then they called you that. It's like well... you deserved it cause you called them a name first. Not because you were any race or religion. You can ask any of my friends, I don't care about religion at all because I am not a member of any and I guess growing up where I did made me believe that there is no different between people based upon race. A human is a human is a human. Put them where you want and they're still a human.

What was my point... It was horrible what he did to you because it was a racist attack but the same would be said if you attacked them. I think I'm too tired to tackle my own thread.

[Nakiro]

http://www.rehydrate.org/facts/ten_facts.htm

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/killers.htm

For more information.

[GSLeloo]

Thank you Nakiro.

There was also technically a womans genocide but all the records of it were basically destroyed. (We learned about it in English class on a documentary one day when she was too tired to teach)

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Pierat one thing, what exactly is a kyke because I have no idea.

Its an abusive term for a Jew, same as a Yid, and the like.

[GSLeloo]

Most of the racial slurs I've heard were on TV, in a book, or being discussed. But I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually say it as in like... to someone of that ethnicity to hurt them.

Most I can remember is an old racist great uncle making fun of black people and apparently I called him a racist...

[Shalla]

I think I mentioned in one of the threads before that we're all hypocrites. Whites, blacks, asians.. even the jews. I was in hong kong vacationing before and I was with my friends.. we were at KFC, which was not a hong kong based restaurant and this chinese girl came up to our table and said to me "I hate filipinos".

I was just stunned. I never expected asian-asian racism. I just didn't say anything ( suprisingly. ) and thought to myself. "You stupid chink."

One time, my friends who were east indian. They're very wealthy here in canada, established and have many businesses. They were also shopping in hong kong, they were just window shopping in one store not really liking anything, but the owner told them to come in. Then after a while they decided to leave. Then the chinese guy said next time I'm putting a sign up in my window that says "No indian dogs allowed".

Basically.. If you don't like being descriminated against. You shouldn't descriminate against white, black, asian, jews, homosexuals, as well as culture and religous subjects.

Leloo was being realistic. I think it was completely unfair and that this class wasn't welcoming and open for thoughts.. Unless it's a class about.. "Ohhhh.. the jews went through soooo much during the holocaust.. and because of that.. we should naively think of them incapable of commiting or doing anything bad or anything related to hate." :rolleyes:

The girl who said you're heartless leloo.. is either naive, and has a clouded perception of the world around her.. Or she put you down to get a high mark. Either way, You should've kicked her face.



[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Lady Shalla]

[Shalla]

I also want to add that I do think the holocaust was horrible. And by no means excusing the people who commited them. I am also not bashing the jews.. I believe that BECAUSE of what happened during the holocaust.. that some people in Europe are still very much scared that it might happen again. Understandably.

But the people who has experienced this kind of tragedies, does not give them the right to descriminate and hate others. I think that we are all capable of hate.. If you commit hate, do not question why hate has befallen you.

We all at one time commited hate. I think we're all hypocrites.

[GSLeloo]

Oh I had a feeling that she just said it to sound cool. She tried to call me stupid once because she was too stupid to understand what I was saying. Still it pissed me off.

[Pierat]

I dont think you can point at a single jewish person whos said something racist and have them tell you "its ok for me to be racsist cause of so and so" My point was that theres stupid racist morons of all groups of people. And pointing out the "jews" and saying why are you people so special is starting to get on my nerves a little..... every group has their bad people, and then every group has a group of people standing up for something. Theres native americans fighting today trying to get money and rights for what they feel was taken from them how many generations ago? The same with people who had a history of slaves. 99% of these groups of people live their lives like every other one of us. They go to work, they dont expect any "perks" they know the world is a crappy place but they try to make it better for themselves. And thats what 99% of the Jewish people are doing too. Are there racist people? of cource....
The only thing ive heard here that was out of line was Nakiros comment.
Sorry buddy, but "Well, you know what, TOUGH SHIT!"
is a very poor choice.
I understood your point and you had a valid one.... but your choice of "extreme" launguage to get there is just insulting. I would never target a group of people who suffered through something horrible and say "Your not the only ones who went through something so tough shit"
And I expect the same treatment. Tough shit doesnt work well for me when describing the holocost.

The perk your mentioning that its still being talked about? What sort of perk is that, its a piece of history, of cource its talked about, are you trying to tell me we dont discuss slavery or what happened to the Native Americans here in the US? Or even what happened to the native americans slain even longer ago by cortez with the mayans? Please, all of those things are history and still discussed and hopefully will still be.
Maybe the Kentuky school system is just different I guess?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Affirmative action is just a way of making sure that so of the prejudices that exist, dont stop those in question from getting to interview etc. I dont personally believe its the best way, but I understand why it is there.Affirmative action is a solution to racism.
Affirmative action is racism.

That's why affirmative action is an abomination and should be gone.
Originally posted by GSLeloo
But I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually say it as in like... to someone of that ethnicity to hurt them. Michael Jackson said it in one of his songs, but changed it later.
Originally posted by Pierat
of cource its talked aboutEver heard about what happened to the Armenians? I never did, until I actually did research on the subject.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Myshel
Your talking about 3 million people being killed. Not a couple of hundred thousand. 3 million.

Totally agreeing with Myshel here, the numbers for the amount of Jewish people killed during the Holocaust far generally exceeds the numbers of people killed in any war or displacement efforts.

Why do Jews have the right to feel victimized and oppressed? Because it wasn't just Hitler. Maybe you should give the class a bit more time, Leloo, and learn about other ways in which those who have practiced Judaism have been persecuted.

Heartless, no. Not well-informed, yes.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Caramia]

[GSLeloo]

We have studied how throughout history they have been persecuted. My point was this, I just don't believe unless it is happening to you that you should be able to use any event in the past as an excuse for anything.

Racism is racism and I don't think any race (african american, italian, mexican, jewish) has the right to make it like racism against them is higher than racism against anyone else. I would never call anyone a racial slur or ever support someone who did. I will hate you for your personality, your behavior, your choices, but I will never hate you for what you were born as.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Lady Shalla
But the people who has experienced this kind of tragedies, does not give them the right to descriminate and hate others. I think that we are all capable of hate.. If you commit hate, do not question why hate has befallen you.

If you think Jewish people automatically discriminate and hate others because of what happened to them over the last two millenium, get over it. If anything, they are some of the most understanding and compassionate people ever.

You only hate if you don't know how to love, or because you follow bad role models/have horrid examples to follow at home. Hate is taught, you aren't born with it. Difficult times often make people more tolerant and enlightened, than intolerant and closeminded.

[Pallon]

Originally posted by Lady Shalla

I was just stunned. I never expected asian-asian racism. I just didn't say anything ( suprisingly. ) and thought to myself. "You stupid chink."



rofl

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by Caramia

Originally posted by Lady Shalla
But the people who has experienced this kind of tragedies, does not give them the right to descriminate and hate others. I think that we are all capable of hate.. If you commit hate, do not question why hate has befallen you.

If you think Jewish people automatically discriminate and hate others because of what happened to them over the last two millenium, get over it. If anything, they are some of the most understanding and compassionate people ever.

You only hate if you don't know how to love, or because you follow bad role models/have horrid examples to follow at home. Hate is taught, you aren't born with it. Difficult times often make people more tolerant and enlightened, than intolerant and closeminded.

You just hit one of my points right on the head. I don't believe any race is totally tolerant because of what happened to them in the past. And as my point was before, my father was a protestant and a foreigner growing up in a mostly Jewish town and they discriminated agaisnt him and they used their own racial slurs against him. To say they don't do it is idiotic. All races do it, it's a fault of mankind, not of a certain race.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caramia
You only hate if you don't know how to love, ... Hate is taught, you aren't born with it. Difficult times often make people more tolerant and enlightened, than intolerant and closeminded. This is not true in every instance.

[Shalla]

Originally posted by Caramia
If you think Jewish people automatically discriminate and hate others because of what happened to them over the last two millenium, get over it. If anything, they are some of the most understanding and compassionate people ever.

You only hate if you don't know how to love, or because you follow bad role models/have horrid examples to follow at home. Hate is taught, you aren't born with it. Difficult times often make people more tolerant and enlightened, than intolerant and closeminded.

Just where did you get the notion that I was generalizing Jewish people? I suggest to re-read my previous posts where I said.. We are all hypocrites and are capable of hating. :rolleyes:

Might I add.. That Cain and Abel was not taught hate by god.. but Cain killed his brother.

Latinstrom said it.. and I will say it again. What you said is so wrong. It is absolutely convoluted and not well thought out.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Lady Shalla]

[Bobmuhthol]

Difficult times make me laugh. Especially at other people going through difficult times. It's fun, and enlightening.

[GSLeloo]

I do agree for many that difficult times makes people more understanding.

But don't forget that Germany in that time frame was having a difficult time and Hitler did not become more understanding of others. He became a psycho.

Plus this generation hasn't been through the hardship of the Holocaust. Just as a point.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Racism is racism and I don't think any race (african american, italian, mexican, jewish) has the right to make it like racism against them is higher than racism against anyone else. I would never call anyone a racial slur or ever support someone who did. I will hate you for your personality, your behavior, your choices, but I will never hate you for what you were born as.

Hate is such an ugly, ugly word and a very strong one to be using at such a young age, Leloo. Hate is certainly not a word to be using lightly.

I would suggest you rethink using it, and consider using dislike before you fall into the ugly, biased trap the word hate creates. It's also karmically bad, to put out such a negative vibe. Three-fold law.

Keep in mind how you would feel if someone said to you "I HATE you because your personality sucks... because your behavior is stupid... because your choices differ from mine." Sure, you can put up the bravado and say it doesn't bother you... but one day, someone you care about it will say it and it will matter. And then you'll see just how hurtful the word "hate" is.

There are much better ways to let someone know that they are displeasing, that doesn't make you just as ugly as they are, in your eyes.

Jewish people do not lourde their discrimation as being more important than anyone else's discrimination. Where are you getting that information?

You asked why they have the right to go on and on about how horrid the Holocaust is... because it was! It is precisely because of the sheer numbers killed, which exceeds any other mass extermination or genocide. That doesn't mean they think less of anyone else's murder!

There is a Jewish saying that has been used many times, including in speeches by Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson, etc.

"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now—when?" (Rabbi Hillel, the Talmud).

This simple phrase has become the battle cry for many civil rights movements, and some have even amended it at the end with "If not you—who?"

What does this mean? It's about self-esteem and a call to action. It's about right-thinking and pride. It's not about discrimination, being better than anyone else, or being hateful.

[Caramia]

PS... I grew up in a wealthy, predominantly WASP town back East, in a section where few other Jewish folks lived. I was horrifically teased and my family called names, just because we lived there and looked Sephardic. A reverse of Fairlawn.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Caramia]

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
This is not true in every instance.

Every instance, no. Some people just have their wiring all wrong, which is more chemical than anything else.

But if you come from a place of love and tolerance, you don't learn hate while in the environment.

[Shalla]

I don't know what utopian world you're living in Caramia. But a place where love and tolerance is 100% does not exist.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
But don't forget that Germany in that time frame was having a difficult time and Hitler did not become more understanding of others. He became a psycho.

Plus this generation hasn't been through the hardship of the Holocaust. Just as a point.

This generation still has living relatives that experienced it. Just because you don't live through it yourself doesn't mean you don't have a right to find it repugnant and say so.

Hitler was psycho before Germany started having "problems" as you so euphemistically put it. History texts have borne out he was a troubled child and adolescent.

If psychotherapy was only not perceived as such an anathema back then or now, we'd have far healthier people.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Pierat one thing, what exactly is a kyke because I have no idea.

Its an abusive term for a Jew, same as a Yid, and the like.

And it's kike, not kyke — although kids today probably have modernized it, like everything else with y's, x's, and z's.

And yes, it's a very hateful word.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
It's not perks. My father said it very well but I don't know the words he used... he said that the Jews are just as hateful towards other races. They have words for white people and words for whites that date blacks. And they use these words (they used them on him) but if you say the word.. kike? kyke? (No idea, he said it) they have a fit and it's anti-semitism and they protest you. To me that's hypocrisy.

Since Jews are predominantly "white", so it would be hypocritical to have a slur against white people. We do have words for non-Jewish folks, but they are hardly as hateful. And I never heard one negative word in Yiddish or Hebrew for white or black people. The yiddishe for black people doesn't mean anything bad in straight translation, but it's the WAY that it's said that is hateful.

I'm not saying that some Jews don't discriminate or practice hate, but the blanket comment that has been put out, stating they are capable of doing so — and linking it directly to what happened in Germany, is pretty eroneous. If anything, Jews would be more worried about Aryans than transferring their outrage to another minority.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Caramia]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caramia
But if you come from a place of love and tolerance, you don't learn hate while in the environment. I can't think of a more sheltered environment than my own, but I would have had to have my ears and eyes sewn shut to not experience hatred while I was growing up. There is nothing in this world crueler than a child. Children's emotions are far greater in scope and depth than any adult's. What we understand as "love" is merely a rediscovery of how much we can feel.

p.s: I'm kind of spacey right now, so sorry if that doesn't make any sense.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
I guess it's just like... in my opinion it seems like people of all races think simply because they are born into a certain race that they deserve something the others don't. Or that they are above others or below or whatever. In my opinion I think that we are all equal and we all should have to work for what we get. Unless you were in that concentration camp or you were a slave or you were taken from your home lands, I don't think you should be able to use events from the past to cover yourself now or to help yourself now or to make yourself special somehow... I just think you should be determined by you, not your biological past.

You forget that the Jewish population didn't have just the one event of persecution during their entire history so far. They are by far the most persecuted group of people over a much longer period of time.

I don't see them "making themselves 'special' or covering themselves for anything" or asking for any perks. Where does this come from, Leloo?

I do support the victims and the deceased victims' living relatives asking for recompensation over losses for UNWILLFUL imprisonment and UNLAWFUL death in the camps. And let's call them what they were, because they weren't concentration camps — they were death camps... extermination camps.

[Shalla]

I suggest to read latrinsorm's post Caramia. Well informed you may be. But latrinsorm speaks with wisdom.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
There is nothing in this world crueler than a child. Children's emotions are far greater in scope and depth than any adult's. What we understand as "love" is merely a rediscovery of how much we can feel.

I will agree that children can be cruel, but they learn this cruelty from somewhere, they aren't born with it. If the parents don't teach them, television and music does. Sorry, I know many children who are brought up in environments where they are taught the difference and they have never been cruel to another child, not like I experienced when I was young.

Children's emotions are superficial and scattered, they don't know how to make sense of them, or express themselves. it is through growth and experience that their emotions develop more depth and nuance, and they become aware. Children are innocent until taught different.

Intrinsically, we all know love from the moment of our birth -- hopefully! Because we get it from our parents and family and those who nurture us. It's as you get older than you understand there are different kinds and levels of love.

[Edited to correct my spelling from typing passionately.]

[Edited on 2-8-2004 by Caramia]

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Lady Shalla
I suggest to read latrinsorm's post Caramia. Well informed you may be. But latrinsorm speaks with wisdom.

I read it. I speak from experience, education, and being a parent.

[Shalla]

All's well then. :smilegrin:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caramia
I will agree that children can be cruel, but they learn this cruelty from somewhere, they aren't born with it. If the parents don't teach them, television and music does. Sorry, I know many children who are brought up in environments where they are taught the difference and they have never been cruel to another child, not like I experienced when I was young.

Children's emotions are superficial and scattered, they don't know how to make sense of them, or express themselves. it is through growth and experience that their emotions develop more depth and nuance, and they become aware. Children are innocent until taught different.I guess we know different kids, then. And that's really all that can be said.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I guess we know different kids, then. And that's really all that can be said.

That and there are really way too many other factors involved to simplify either of our stances. It not so very black and white, or cut and dried.

[Bobmuhthol]

<--- is a kid.
<--- hates people by choice.
<--- wasn't taught.

That should be just about settled now.

[GSLeloo]

Here is what I am saying. That if I am of X race and I call you of B race a racial slur and you call it to me back.. it is of the same equality and just as bad.

The only thing that annoyed me about all of this were those who said that because of the holocaust Jewish people are not racist or however you want to put it. I don't believe that is true at all and my dad would give his own personal experiences as to why it isn't true in all cases. All people have the ability to pick on others, especially when they are in the majority and you are in the minority. I am lucky because I have truly never seen racism in my town. We are predominantly a white dutch town but those of different minorities that are here are treated the same as the rest of us.

[Shalla]

It involves many factors.. complicated and hard to resolve. Otherwise, we would all have that love and tolerance world that we wanted.. and the religious order would not tempt us of heaven or paradise to be good. Even more scare us with purgatory anymore.

I think love and tolerance should start in our home first. before dreaming of encompassing the world.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Caramia


I will agree that children can be cruel, but they learn this cruelty from somewhere, they aren't born with it.

Children's emotions are superficial and scattered, they don't know how to make sense of them, or express themselves.

That's not true. First, if you say children aren't born with hate, and that they have to be taught it. If this was fact then there wouldn't be hatred existing in this world because there would've been no one originally to hate another.

Second, you say children don't know how to express their feelings.. that's where hatred originates. Even if a group of children were raised without any hatred, they would be unable to express certain emotions (jealousy, maybe a kid is playing with their favorite toy) and make fun of them for something that makes them different (for instance, if you had 5 white kids and 2 black kids, 2 latinos, one india). The kid would lash out and make fun of them for a reason that they weren't taught, but perceived on their own, which in this case would be having a different skin color. Hatred is a natural human vice, everyone is capable of it, taught or not.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Caramia


I will agree that children can be cruel, but they learn this cruelty from somewhere, they aren't born with it.

Children's emotions are superficial and scattered, they don't know how to make sense of them, or express themselves.

That's not true. First, if you say children aren't born with hate, and that they have to be taught it. If this was fact then there wouldn't be hatred existing in this world because there would've been no one originally to hate another.

Second, you say children don't know how to express their feelings.. that's where hatred originates. Even if a group of children were raised without any hatred, they would be unable to express certain emotions (jealousy, maybe a kid is playing with their favorite toy) and make fun of them for something that makes them different (for instance, if you had 5 white kids and 2 black kids, 2 latinos, one india). The kid would lash out and make fun of them for a reason that they weren't taught, but perceived on their own, which in this case would be having a different skin color. Hatred is a natural human vice, everyone is capable of it, taught or not.

I'm still going to disagree. There apparently was "hate" taught at the beginning of time somewhere, and spare me the Cain and Abel examples please... I'm an Agnostic Jew. I also think the Bible is something man wrote, not something given to us from a higher power.

Regardless of how hate started, it unfortunately continues.

Kids today, if they don't get it from their parents, get it from other kids, TV, movies, video games, etc. Kids can be taught certain things are wrong and inappropriate, if a parent cares enough to do so.

[Hulkein]

Knowing wrong from right is a lot different then hating something. Everyone hates something inside, whether they show it or not. Hate is just a human nature. And I wasn't talking about Bible at all, I'm even saying the first people on the planet.. Who taught them hate? Get what I mean? It is obviously inside us, stirred up from natural occurences, ex- Caveman falls down a cliff because he tripped on a spear left there from a different tribe, he hates them now.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Caramia

Originally posted by Myshel
Your talking about 3 million people being killed. Not a couple of hundred thousand. 3 million.

Totally agreeing with Myshel here, the numbers for the amount of Jewish people killed during the Holocaust far generally exceeds the numbers of people killed in any war or displacement efforts.

Why do Jews have the right to feel victimized and oppressed? Because it wasn't just Hitler. Maybe you should give the class a bit more time, Leloo, and learn about other ways in which those who have practiced Judaism have been persecuted.

Heartless, no. Not well-informed, yes.

[Edited on 2-7-2004 by Caramia]

3m over the course of 5 years isn't much.
If you didn't read my last post, it said that in the last five years over twice that amount of children have died from preventable causes.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Caramia

You only hate if you don't know how to love, or because you follow bad role models/have horrid examples to follow at home. Hate is taught, you aren't born with it. Difficult times often make people more tolerant and enlightened, than intolerant and closeminded.

This could not be anymore farther from the truth.

Edit:

On further reflection, how THE HELL can you think this? Harder times make people more tolerant and enlightened?

You mean like the hard times germany went through after WWI when their entire economic system collapsed, they had no military, and they owed billions in war reparations that they could not possible produce?

These "hard times" produced a greater tolerance and enlightenment for whom?

Where have hard times ever produced greater tolernace? This quote sounds like some dumb clip you pulled out of a chick-flick.

AND IF hard times produced tolerance and enlightenment, what conditions produce the opposite? Good times?

Reminds me of the old saying: The optimist believes we live in the best of all worlds; the pesimist fears they are right.

[Edited on 2-8-2004 by Nakiro]

[Nakiro]

Caramaia, you highly underestimate the scope of a child.

And your views on the human condition go against pretty much every fundamental theory of economics, biology, ecology, sociology, and political philosophy.

You taught your kids not to do the wrong thing. They didn't grow up not doing them. You can put two 8 month babies together and watch them play with a ball, and they'll fight over it and intentionally injure one another in an effort to get that ball.

[FlypaperforFreaks]

Leloo you might not have been heartless but you sure the hell come across as stupid. You strike me as someone with just enough knowledge and education to be dangerous. And you expect everyone else to do your fucking research for you. 'Um wasnt there a guy who um did something um oh geez I dont know a long time ago to a bunch of people?' Give me a break. Don't be so damn lazy. Google, learn it, love it, live it.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro


3m over the course of 5 years isn't much.


My understanding is that it was 6 million people killed during the Holocaust, the majority of which were Polish Jews. I also believe that the "final solution" program didnt start until 1941, so that means 4 years.

When you consider that the only reason any one of these was killed is because some loony thought that Jews were responsible for all that was wrong in the german world at the time and that they should make way for a better, fairer, purer race, I think it stretches the definition of "isn't that much" beyond any plausible scope.


Originally posted by Nakirro
If you didn't read my last post, it said that in the last five years over twice that amount of children have died from preventable causes.

And that too is bad. Doesnt diminish the horrors of the Holocaust.

My family visited Poland a couple of years back and we went to the work camp and the death camps at Auschwitz while we were there. It is frightning. The scale of it was huge. To have been there while people were being killed would have been horrendous.

Visits to concentration camps should be compulsory.

[GSLeloo]

Googling doesn't work if you don't know the name of the event or the person who began it all.

I don't feel the need to justify myself to you, you simply remind me of the person who called me heartless. And so you know, she has to be one of the dumbest people in my school and yet she tries to make people think she is smart.

I have more than enough education to understand the topic. You are missing my point because you simply decided you wanted to call me stupid.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Googling doesn't work if you don't know the name of the event or the person who began it all.

I don't feel the need to justify myself to you, you simply remind me of the person who called me heartless. And so you know, she has to be one of the dumbest people in my school and yet she tries to make people think she is smart.

I have more than enough education to understand the topic. You are missing my point because you simply decided you wanted to call me stupid.

I would think that there is a little truth in much of what has been said by many here Leloo.

I agree that the person in your class who called you heartless was being overly dramatic.

I agree that the girl was using an evidently small information base along with a hearty dose of emotion to make such an accusation.

I also think that you may be falling into the trap of making final judgements about immense world events with a relatively small knowledge base. You say you have more than enough education to understand the topic yet I suggest that you consider that that is a common mistake made by many who have just enough information to understand that there IS a problem without truly grasping its scope.

I say we remove the term heartless from the discussion as clearly you are not that.

With that gone it now allows for a more dispassionate look at the topic. You seem to feel that there are some Jewish groups or individuals who take advantage of the feelings of guilt or sympathy that the Holocause evokes.

I would say that of course there will be a small minority who may do so but most hope that most do not.

I gave my perceived reasons why the Holocaust is still as prominently taught about and discussed today in an earlier post.

I think that most classes taught about the Holocaust in HS are not worth all that much to be honest (I am speaking mostly from personal experience here as my own were less than wonderful) and if you have any real interest in the subject you would do better taking one or more once you have started college.

If you wish to get a headstart on it there are many extrememly educational books you could read now.

Three that I have on my shelf that I found good are.

"The War Against the Jews"
'The Holocaust and the Historians"
"The Holocaust in History"

Of course you are not "heartless" so dont take such silly invectives tossed about so lightly in high school so dearly to heart.

[Latrinsorm]

Google is not a serious research utility, Fly. Ask Bestatte, or Peam. (my eyes still hurt from trying to read that, Peam)

[FlypaperforFreaks]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Google is not a serious research utility, Fly. Ask Bestatte, or Peam. (my eyes still hurt from trying to read that, Peam)

Leloo is lazy. Lazy people dont do things like go to the library for research. That is why I suggested google. And she is an attention whore. And naive. And STUPID. She reminds me of the little boy who asks 'Mommy why is the sky blue?' In the child it is cute in the adult it is pathetic. That is all.

[Edited on 2-8-2004 by FlypaperforFreaks]

[GSLeloo]

See Fly in your own post you made everything you said invalid. You are simply saying what you are saying because for some reason you do not like me and so you are trying to insult me. So I will remember not to take anything you say to heart or seriously because you're just a hateful person.

And I have never said that what happened in the holocaust wasn't a horrible thing. What would researching do? You can't read in a book your own personal feelings. I simply believe that no one deserves special treatment above anyone else. It is a personal feeling that I can't find in a book. Please refrain from making idiotic statements unless you know what the topic is about.

Plus if you wish to insult me, then make a thread to. Don't run around trying to in a thread that has an actual purpose.

[GSLeloo]

And for your information, I worked my ass off since seventh grade to be smart. I have been on the honor roll every single year since. I am not lazy nor am I stupid. I simply KNOW that you can't find every answer you want in a book. Nor would I want to simply take the opinion of someone else. I would rather question and form my own opinions rather than take someone else's.

[Drew2]

I pity Leloo and the sheltered life she leads.

[peam]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
And for your information, I worked my ass off since seventh grade to be smart. I have been on the honor roll every single year since. I am not lazy nor am I stupid. I simply KNOW that you can't find every answer you want in a book. Nor would I want to simply take the opinion of someone else. I would rather question and form my own opinions rather than take someone else's.

On a tangent, good grades do not translate into being smart. I'm not calling you stupid at all, but I can't stand people that equate intelligence into being on the dean's list/honor roll/etc.

A few people who graduated at the top of my high school class were some of the biggest morons I've ever came across. Hardworking and skilled in making decisions? Maybe. Automatically intelligent? Not a chance.

[Edited on 2-8-2004 by peam]

[GSLeloo]

I am simply saying she was calling me lazy that I wouldn't research or something. And I was saying not only am I not lazy because I did work for the grades, which included research, but it's also an opinion.

And maybe I do live a sheltered life but for now I prefer that it keeps me from being jaded.

[FlypaperforFreaks]

Originally posted by GSLeloo

The slaves, the american indians, tribes in Africa, even I guess Iraq. I guess it just bothers me that it seems like we should just forget all the other times this happened and focus only on the one that happened to the Jewish population.



Have you ever BEEN to a library Leloo. Try wandering the history section occasionally. Just to be able to say you had.

[GSLeloo]

Fly, I repeat. You want to flame me, make a thraed. Don't be lazy. But this thread had an actual purpose and an actual discussion so please don't try to derail it.

[Syberus]

How does her desire to look at other genocidal attempts aside from the Holocaust make her lazy or stupid?

[Edited on 2-8-2004 by Syberus]

[Skirmisher]

Insults were not really ever needed in this thread.

Nothing she said was ever something I would take as malicious and I disagree with her.

There are some threads that are just flamefests,this should not be one of them, this should be one of education and sharing of information.

Lets all cut the uncalled for insults please?

[FlypaperforFreaks]

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by Mint
You have opened a whole can of worms here though that few are going to be able to answer to your satisfaction.

Okay due mostly to Skirmisher and Ranger I hereby retract this statement.

Don't retract it, some people will never be satisfied with the answers they receive. I believe Leloo is one of these people. And contrary to what she believes that is not a flame. Not being satisfied with pat answers is a good thing always. My issue is her unwillingness to admit that to some issues there never will be an answer. Bad things have happened to many groups of people. How the hell do you address them all in one thread? Or one lifetime for that matter. Should we not try at all? Of course we should. Just dont be so damn lazy in doing so.

[GSLeloo]

I wasn't lazy at all and that is where the insult is. My whole point is this... if something happened to my ancestors a hundred years ago, do I have the right to special treatment because of that? I believe children born with AIDS or born to abusive parents, people dying of diseases, people that are trapped in a life that will destroy them... they deserve special treatment, they deserve to be helped. But in my personal opinion I don't believe because someone is born any particular race that just by being that race they deserve some kind of special treatment. (Not at just the Jewish race, I mean any race at all.)

[Mint]

QUIT QUOTING ME! That is why I never get involved in political discussion. :bye:

[GSLeloo]

Aw... ~hugs mint~ It's ok, you have the great Tweetie avatar!

[Mint]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Aw... ~hugs mint~ It's ok, you have the great Tweetie avatar!

hehe, Leloo is very perceptive! Tweetie is my love.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Caramia
Kids today, if they don't get it from their parents, get it from other kids, TV, movies, video games, etc. Kids can be taught certain things are wrong and inappropriate, if a parent cares enough to do so.

Right. Kids can be taught certain things are wrong. Why do we have to teach them that these things are wrong if they are not born with the natural desire to do them?

[Caramia]

Right. Kids can be taught certain things are wrong. Why do we have to teach them that these things are wrong if they are not born with the natural desire to do them?

They aren't born with the desire to do them, more an innocence about right and wrong, harmless and harmful, etc.

If you don't know what a stove is at birth, how can you know if it's hot, and not to place your hand on the flame/coils? You aren't born knowing or wanting to put your hand there.

[Caramia]

It's the blanket statements that Leloo makes that are disconcerting, as have already been pointed out. The entire Jewish race does not believe or act like they are due everything, or even due something, because of a near-lifetime of persecution or the Holocaust.

Were they merely a race that had been ostracized once over history as far back as we know it, perhaps I could agree that holding such an attitude might be ill-founded... but it's not been just one event, nor is it all people.

As for Hulkein, Nakiro, and others that disagree with my view of society -- glad you disagree. It doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong, or vice versa.

Whether it's been watching the growth of siblings, children, grandchildren, and nieces or nephews, it has certainly demonstrated to me that the role the parent takes and the things children are taught by them and other caring individuals, that definitely contributes in large part to their makeup.

If you are taught hatred at home, or are left to immerse yourself in a world of violence through television, movies, and video games, life can become pretty ugly.

I do not believe I was born with hate inside me, and I do not believe I hate anyone or anything. I might dislike brussel sprouts, rude people, and petty dictators that oppress their nations-- but I don't hate them. Hate is a pretty strong word to use, and I believe in the three-fold law. But if you want to believe that hate is natural, be my guest. I have never seen it demonstrated.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caramia
But if you want to believe that hate is natural, be my guest. I have never seen it demonstrated. Not to dig this up all over again, or anything, but hate is no more or less natural than love, or happiness, or sadness. Call it genetic programming, cultural memory, the breath of God, or whatever, but the overwhelming majority of people experience emotions. It'd be hard to argue that any one of them isn't "natural".

Of course you're right about that nurture stuff. I don't think anyone could argue against that either.

Originally posted by FlypaperforFreaks

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by Mint
You have opened a whole can of worms here though that few are going to be able to answer to your satisfaction.

Okay due mostly to Skirmisher and Ranger I hereby retract this statement.

Don't retract it, some people will never be satisfied with the answers they receive. I believe Leloo is one of these people. And contrary to what she believes that is not a flame. Not being satisfied with pat answers is a good thing always. My issue is her unwillingness to admit that to some issues there never will be an answer. Bad things have happened to many groups of people. How the hell do you address them all in one thread? Or one lifetime for that matter. Should we not try at all? Of course we should. Just dont be so damn lazy in doing so.

Keep in mind that i agreed with Leloo.

Originally posted by Caramia

Right. Kids can be taught certain things are wrong. Why do we have to teach them that these things are wrong if they are not born with the natural desire to do them?

They aren't born with the desire to do them, more an innocence about right and wrong, harmless and harmful, etc.

If you don't know what a stove is at birth, how can you know if it's hot, and not to place your hand on the flame/coils? You aren't born knowing or wanting to put your hand there.

Negative. You made the claim that children were not born with the ability to hate. If they "hate" or become abusive or do fviolent things, it does not matter that they do not know the consequences of their actions.

Your example of the "Stove" is also fallacious. For that example to be true, people would have to *stop* doing evil things. Since there are thousands of examples to the contrary everyday i think my point is proven.