Ways to Nerf Sign of Wracking

[Fallen]

As we all know, with Oscuro tasked to "Bring the other Societies up to standard", changes are a-coming to the Good Council. While I would like to believe that such updates wont include a series of slash and burn nerfs, it would be silly to assume such is the case. ANYWHO, as one who enjoys the use of Sign of Wracking, I've compiled a list of ways in which the ability could be modified while still remaining useful.

Before getting to the list, I would like to make the general suggestion that any penalties placed upon COL signs and sign duration be able to be slowly mitigated by completing tasks, paying bribes, or doing SOMETHING to the effect of Effort = Reward after mastery. This would give those in COL that have already mastered a reason to stay active within the society beyond any token penalties of upkeep. Getting people hooked into super long term goals is a great way to retain the player base. The Adventurer's Guild, and to an extent, Post Cap Training, are prime examples of such a phenomenon.

Feel free to comment, modify, or add your own ideas to the discussion.

1. Added Upkeep to specific COL Powers- Along with the society being more difficult to master and having an added upkeep to continue to use one's powers, there could be some wracking specific upkeep, such as a sign devoted to the process. Use of the sign would drain spirit/mana/stamina to put towards the payment of a debt for use of the particular sign. Constantly feeding resources into the system would allow you to constantly pull them out. Just one idea along these lines of many, I think there is definitely room here to make something work.

2. Flat Use Timer - Obvious in its implications, one would only be able to use Sign of Wracking once every X minutes. A very simplistic and rather unimaginative approach, but likely the easiest to implement and balance. It seems 5 minutes is the normal threshold for these types of restrictions (1107, 160X). My problem with this change is either you're damaging those who use their mules as mana batteries (for spells or whatever), or you are targeting those that use it multiple times per hunt. The latter being the case you would need a 15-20 minute timer on the ability, which would certainly be a bitter pill to swallow.

3. Increased Spirit Cost - Either a flat increase in cost per use, or a sliding scale of cost based upon usage, rank status, tasks completed, etc. I think a jump from 5 spirit to 7 would certainly prove an effective nerf without destroying the overall utility of the sign.

4. Reduced Mana Return - A front runner IMO of what will actually be done, instead of recovering all your mana, you will be given a lesser, flat amount. I'm not a huge fan of this idea, though if there were ways that with effort and time invested we could RAISE the amount of mana recovered to approach full returns I could see it as a viable solution. Another way to implement the idea would be reduced returns for repeated use within X amount of time. Say over a 20 minute period, the first use of the sign yields 100% of your mana, then 75%, then 50%, then 25% and stays at a determined base level until 20 minutes have passed.

5. Spirit/Mana Recovery Penalties - Much like the above idea of a reduced return over a set period of time, a penalty to one's ability to recover spirit with repeated use would prove an excellent way to balance heavy use of the sign. An example of the idea is that over a 1 hour period of time, every use of Sign of Wracking drops you down 1 level of Spirit Recovery. This penalty will stack until the hour passes, or it could be implemented so that it passes after X amount of time from the last use. Remember, there are 3 levels of spirit recovery ABOVE Halflings/Gnomes, and three levels BELOW Dark Elf.

6. Variable Spirit Cost - Unless implemented carefully, people wouldn't bother to use Sign of Wracking without having the maximum spirit Cost on the randomized scale. Rather than straight spirit death, perhaps an added penalty could take affect if you lacked the amount of spirit to convert the randomized outcome of demand. Something harsh, like a stiff Spirit/Mana/Stamina recovery penalty, or a significant loss of health. In my opinion this method of balance would be more interesting than a flat increase in cost.

7. Allotted Uses Per Day - Similar to a timer, but more along the lines of a Self-charging item. You would get X amount of uses of the sign in a day, to be used at whatever point you desired, then use of the sign would be removed until a set amount of time has passed, a set amount of tasks have been completed, or a set price has been paid. One could then implement a means of raising this threshold with continued active service within the Council of Light.

8. Prolonged Exposure Vulnerability - Either by having the time at which the exposure from using your sign be randomized, having multiple triggers for exposure, or adding new ways of exposing one's use of powers, the idea remains the same. You increase the likelihood of members of the Council getting caught by non-members. I will add to this bullet the increased penalty in being caught using your signs. The greater the penalties, the greater the justification for more powerful abilities.

9. Cosmetic Symptoms Of Spirit Drain/Sign use - Many people wont use 130 because it makes you throw up in your mouth, fall over like a retard, and basically look weak and foolish (Unless you're an empath). If added cosmetic penalties from having reduced spirit were put into affect, they could either act as part of number 8, creating a chance your spirit usage will be noted by non-members, AND will discourage characters not wishing to portray themselves as weak, peeked, feeble, wobbly, light-headed, etc. The only downside to this change would be the scroll it would create as some characters are bound to ignore the messaging the use creates.

10. Increased Penalties to Spirit Loss - This is another penalty which could be potentially crippling to wracking if implemented too harshly. I believe I remember Oscuro favoring such a method, however, so I imagine it is likely to come to pass. Basically, using spirit would affect your PC more harshly than it does now. Not only would you lose AS/DS, you would drop in TD, CS, CMAN strength/defense, Recoveries (Health, Spirit, Mana, Stamina), and stats. I don’t think I need to go into much detail on this one. It could be done well, or it could be done poorly.

11. Delayed/Staggered Mana Returns - A suggestion of Belnia's, I believe, you would upon activation of the Sign of Wracking receive 20% of your current mana pool, then over a set period of time continue to receive 20% of your mana pool until 100% of it has been returned. Helpful for Semi's and Squares, Not so much for Pures IMO. Still, it is one possible nerf worth listing.

[Ignot]

what is the problem with sign of wracking, currently? As a wizard, I know I never used it because the spirit drop effects my AS. I know sorcs can use it with no change to their CS. Is this the issue? I always thought that a lose in spirit should reduce casting strength as well as attack strength.

[Sean]

Someone, I think SR, said it in the other thread... why does GS have to be a chore?

[Fallen]

what is the problem with sign of wracking, currently? As a wizard, I know I never used it because the spirit drop effects my AS. I know sorcs can use it with no change to their CS. Is this the issue? I always thought that a lose in spirit should reduce casting strength as well as attack strength.

It is thought that it gives people access to too much mana too quickly without adequate costs. I disagree, but I am in the minority.

[Stanley Burrell]

SIGNS will only work once you have killed enough living not-undead NPCs.

Edit: You get twice as much Dark Favor of V'Tull for offing Halflings. YEAH I DONE SAID IT. WHAT?!

Edit-edit: You win the game if you decapitate the ethereal head of an undead Halfling banshee. Think about how extra high-pitched their cosmic wails must be. Definitely a game winner. Hands down. Thumbs up. High five.

Edit-edit-edit: Edit.

[Fallen]

You could only have to kill living stuff to make your SIGNS work.

It is possible, if Oscuro decides to tie COL to Luukos, or another of the evil Arkati. Not terribly balancing, though, unless you could only pool enough "favor" to power 1 or 2 signs before needing to be replenished.

[Ignot]

Kind of off topic but I would like to see bounties tied into societies.

[Stanley Burrell]

In all seriousness, I'd go with reduced base spirit return with messaging along the lines of.

As your SIGN of SWORDS fades, you notice a diminishing blibbittyhoohah within the vorpal deathly forces that bond you to the spirits of the universe.

Followed by,

You feel that special spiritual tingle in teh gonads that allows you to have normal spirit on your next swordy SIGN, mang.

Shit like that, yo.

[Fallen]

Yeah, reduced spirit recovery makes the most sense to me too.

[Stanley Burrell]

It is possible, if Oscuro decides to tie COL to Luukos, or another of the evil Arkati. Not terribly balancing, though, unless you could only pool enough "favor" to power 1 or 2 signs before needing to be replenished.

I was just poking fun at abject Voln tedium.

It would probably be easier since you don't need claidhmore blesses as a CoL Warrior/Rogue, but I venture to say it would still have that "I-just-watch-2girls1cup-for-the-first-time-ever" factor that could cause great angst amidst the five people who still play.

Who actually has a CoL character, heavily-reliant on SIGNS for hunting that has under 8 spirit points anyway?

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, reduced spirit recovery makes the most sense to me too.

The first thing I'd do, if I played a CoL Warrior would be to cry about how CMAN SURGE != Society (if you're talking about hampered mana return as a result of excessive sign usage) and then have a ten-thousand page thread before Emeradan baleets everyone's existential arguments that have transcended into the fiery pits of an anarchic debate on whether or not the veil-iron in so-and-so's bootlaces should be dyable.

SIMU could make Voln less sucky, too. I think it took me 3 years to master my first Voln character; from when I was like 14-17 real-life age, and I still left the house to do social activities. Saying give that shit up because I don't want to be forced into hunting an extremely narrow range of undead crap towards the near cap grind/saying I need to burn time in GoS when I've already invested into a still-nerfed Voln is just a fantastically stupid way ... of being fantastically stupid. I don't want to sacrifice citizenship buy/sell advantages because I don't have $23094830890 in multiple accounts to pass stuff around; but more than that, I still look at The Nations as an expansion area and my familiarity with Illistim is nothing like it is with, say, Teras. Or Wehnimer's. Or Icemule for that matter. Maybe if SIMU nerfs CoL really badly and makes symbol of dreams useful, then people couldn't complain, because they could join either GoS or Voln.

Or SIMU could just not hit CoL with the nerf bat, although I don't see that not happening for some reason. The last "update" to gaining ranks was a pretty colorful nerf. Blowing up the bathhouse was kind of cool though. I mean, if you're that into torturing vast-er majorities of people, then why not create some RT marshes with a minimum of 30 minutes delay to-and-from Solhaven, since joining any societies/towns/adventurer guild escorts are "optional"...

...And then add some really awesome multisyllabic descriptions about wading around through mud and do l33t temporary appearance alters so that when you LOOK at Lady and Lord So-And-So they are TOTALLY COVERED IN MUD, omigod!111one so that everyone who goes to and from Solhaven instantly has raunchy Silvergate Inn cybersex. (Since you know how everyone loves RP'ing and doesn't want to actually level their character.)

Just add MIU + mana expenditure to blue crystals and we'll be all set.

[Another odd duck]

I remember the dark assassin ..... tried to outrun him in the landing once .... didn't make it ... paid attention to my sign use much better after that ...

[Ignot]

Reduced spirit recovery for all signs or just wracking? I would hate reduction for swords/shields unless their duration was increased.

[Fallen]

Reduced spirit recovery for all signs or just wracking? I would hate reduction for swords/shields unless their duration was increased.

Just the high spirit ones, like Wracking, Madness, Darkness, etc.

[Stanley Burrell]

No one uses MADNESS!

Yes/No?


http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/madness.jpg

Seriously though, Link would be a horrible fucking Persian messenger.

[Soulpieced]

Soulpieced votes for less fun, more tedium.

[Moist Happenings]

Well, I do agree that it is a bit "easy" to upkeep CoL now, but realistically all you're doing is mechanically negating the use for small races.

What are there a lot of now? Elves, Giantman, ???

Why do you play a giantman?

1. Lots of health
2. Good spirit recovery
3. Can hold lots of stuff

Why do you play a forest gnome?

1. Good spirit recovery
2. Maybe you watched David the Gnome as a kid.

Why do you play a dwarf?

1. Good spirit recovery
2. Maybe RP basis

Take away the good spirit recovery aspect, and you're going to see a big drop in at least two races being played because mechanically there is a HUGE difference between them.

Negate spirit recovery, and gnomes/dwarves are basically Giantmen with half the health that can carry a quarter as much.

That's not to say people wouldn't still play those two races for RP reasons, but knowing the average gemstone player, I really doubt RP will overpower the desire not to make the game even more tedious and annoying. I think if you get rid of that spirit regen aspect, you're gonna see a lot more giantmen, and a lot fewer other races.

[Ignot]

2. Maybe you watched David the Gnome as a kid.


I did, for some reason I can't remember the theme song! But I do remember him flying on some fox...

[Moist Happenings]

I did, for some reason I can't remember the theme song! But I do remember him flying on some fox...

I remember the show being on Nickelodeon, but I was never that into it.

[Fallen]

The name was the fox was swift.

[Abyran'sa]

9. Cosmetic Symptoms Of Spirit Drain/Sign use.
--- This I like. Everyone in CoL ends up looking like meth users if they wrack too much.... but so would Master alchemists (who already have their OWN meth labs!).


Not to hijack the topic, but along the COL balance lines.
One way I have thought to balance the Council as a whole has been by adding non-combat balancing factors. Ideas dealing with death come to mind, especially with the history of the organization. Such as...
What if deeds were more expensive, or harder to obtain for COL members? Perhaps if COL MASTERS could only get deeds in Teras, or only via some new system that granted deeds outside of the temple/deedbox, was available everywhere but took a substantial of effort? Or what about if the priestesses sold the Death's sting potions for twice as much?.. OR not at all? Force Col Members to find other ways of mitigating death's sting...

I would like to see more undead have the 'empathic tug' mechanics, as that could really end up being a major hurdle at higher levels (ex. vaespilions)

[Rathain]

Two things in line with Sunfist are shorter durations and outstanding and diverse ephemeral benefits. I can see them nuking current duration levels, but also taxing a player for spirit when a skill is first used instead of drainage when the duration expires. Spirit isn't like mana or stamina, in the sense that it's harder to increase spirit levels without enhancive. If Oscuro does stay with Spirit as the fuel source, I would hope that the skills wouldn't get nuked too much.

Instead of messing around with CoL abilities and potential spirit regeneration penalties, It'd be great if they allowed for a CoL ability that granted increased spirit regeneration for that shorter duration, or an ability to convert mana/stamina into spirit. This would help mitigate other decreased skill durations and sharper costs to skills like wracking, while still being balanced.

[diethx]

http://students.kennesaw.edu/~sjacobs9/wracking.jpg

[Inspire]

4. Reduced Mana Return -
Say over a 20 minute period, the first use of the sign yields 100% of your mana, then 75%, then 50%, then 25% and stays at a determined base level until 20 minutes have passed.


I could live with this.

I currently use sign of wracking when spelling up or when I need to extend my hunt to finish a bounty. (Sylvan Wizard)

If they changed things too far I would most likely change over to Sunfist unless Voln by some miracle becomes a good society. (Bring back dreams!)

[Fallen]

>>>Not to hijack the topic, but along the COL balance lines.
One way I have thought to balance the Council as a whole has been by adding non-combat balancing factors. Ideas dealing with death come to mind, especially with the history of the organization. Such as...
What if deeds were more expensive, or harder to obtain for COL members? Perhaps if COL MASTERS could only get deeds in Teras, or only via some new system that granted deeds outside of the temple/deedbox, was available everywhere but took a substantial of effort? Or what about if the priestesses sold the Death's sting potions for twice as much?.. OR not at all? Force Col Members to find other ways of mitigating death's sting...

I would like to see more undead have the 'empathic tug' mechanics, as that could really end up being a major hurdle at higher levels (ex. vaespilions) >>

I think general penalties to being in COL are a great way to balance the society. It doesn't always have to be about nuking the society's current powers, but that is all people who are favoring changes seem to be calling for.

[Sean]

Are you trying to make joining CoL less desirable or make it more balanced?

[Fallen]

Are you trying to make joining CoL less desirable or make it more balanced?

Both, though I believe the key way towards making the society less desirable is to make it truly evil, and require upkeep costs which require effort to maintain membership within the society.

Nuking sign powers will just piss everyone else off for little mechanical "Balance" gain.

[Fallen]

A recent X-post from the officials.

>If profession development is taking societies in consideration there is something wrong in my opinion. If this is true and I do not know if it is, societies need to be nerfed, brought down to a level where development of professions are not based on what should be an optional, highly RP based and cost/benefit associated choice. <DUBBELMACKAN> >>>

I have been told 100% flat-out by GMs this is not the case, societal signs are NOT taken into account when designing for a current profession. I would absolutely LOVE to be told otherwise by a GM, as it would contradict a lot of what was said in an earlier debate. Though as much as this has already happened, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Someone explain to me how having access to a large pool of mana at an increased risk is unbalancing. Is it so because other societies cannot offer the same perks? This again goes towards making the other societies more attractive. I don't think Wracking is so unbalancing that if a society offers something of near equal power that it would disrupt game balance. Voln used to have it by nature of a combination of its powers being potent, and by Symbol of Dreams. That was always the big debate, "should I give up Symbol of Dreams for Wracking?" That debate went bye-bye when they nerfed Voln, which was no fault of COL. Mind you, this was during an era of a 160!! level cap. Talk about extended durations.

Is it because players have access to that much mana IN THE FIELD without a significant increase in risk? To this I say you are quite mistaken in how dramatic an effect a loss of 5 spirit is on one's defenses, let alone their offenses. Take a 4x runestaff, 4x full leather wearing cleric/sorcerer/wizard and drain half his spirit. I would bet in guarded it would drop said character well within range of being struck by normal attacks throughout the area. Now, take that character and drop him prone, or put him into offensive, OR ..put him in PRONE OFFENSIVE. Guess what? He is going to die. Just for craps and giggles, drop said person down to 3 spirit or below, because apparently some people wrack twice during a hunt, and repeat the study. As you will see, it is only those people who apply measures FAR outside what this game is balanced around to be able to survive under such circumstances. I say wracking in the field is balanced, or damn well close to it. Now factor in that you cannot wrack in front of others. A most annoying feature for those that, you know, actually like to roleplay with others during hunting.

This brings us to people believing that Wracking is unbalanced due to the amount of mana it provides people OUTSIDE of the field. Here we start getting into questionable territory. There are essentially no risks towards wracking in a controlled environment outside of the field. THIS is the scenario where I personally believe an added measure of balance must come into play. Now, how do you rectify this problem? Harsh moral penalties aren't going to rattle the ethics of your favorite slave wizard or mana battery. My solution would be added GENERAL UPKEEP to COL. Enough so that you must make your mule run errands, or spend time/silvers towards having others run errands for your mule so that they can keep providing you with mana.

Lets hear some viable arguments from all those people who just say Wracking = overpowered without justification. Don't worry, I will even wait for you to stop laughing so you can actually form a valid complaint.

[zhelas]

Honestly when one gets high enough in training, the need to wrack really isn't all that necessary.

What do I mean? At 95 trains and 297 mana my sorcerer doesn't need to wrack when he hunts Nelemar. I might have a different opinion when I cap since it will take more kills to fry. Then again my CS is 489 so I don't fail as often like i used to.

However, when I was starting my sorcerer out, I wracked once out in the field every hunt. I knew the risks but the plinking would eat away at the mana. Sure we have sacrifice. I could 2x in HP but for 1 aditional mana it wasn't worth the cost in training points.

I do agree that COL is way to easy to Master.

I would like to see something happen with the society that would keep my interest in it. Right now once you master you can forget it even exists unless your spirit drops too low infront of a non member.

Peace

[zhelas]

I think the tasks could vary.

A few rambling ideas..........

1. A different way for gathering "donations"

We have word that a large shipment of arms will be traveling between the Landing and Solhaven. Make sure those arms never make it to their destination. (Of course the caravan will be heavily guarded.)

2. Maybe we become the "Secret Assassin" for some tasks and kill NPC former members etc, etc....

Word has it that a former member of our group has left and is going to our enemies to tell them of our secrets. They have a safe house in one of the Villages around the Landing. Go persuade that former member not to speak.

(We would go search for the house in one of the villages around the town. Enter the house and kill the former member. Of course our enemies would be guarding that member. Since this event is happening in town. We run the risk of being arrested. However this could be mitigated by bribes to either the guards or the constable.)

3. We might have a task where we assist in the planting of our agents within the government of towns.

4. We could be sent to kill spies that have infiltrated our group.

-----------------------------------------------------
This is the "darker" society. Lets be that!

And there should be an ingame time limit to have these completed.

If you take tooo long you get demoted.

[zhelas]

I don't see why there couldn't be some upkeep involved especially for our use of the more powerful signs.

You want to use Sign of Shields/Swords/Healing/Wracking etc etc no problem. However you need to have built up a reputation within the organization (Almost like Voln Favor or GoS prestige) to gain access to these signs in addition to the mana and spirit drain that comes with them.

The more powerful the sign, the higher the cost of reputation points needed to use them.

[Fallen]

I don't see why there couldn't be some upkeep involved especially for our use of the more powerful signs.

You want to use Sign of Shields/Swords/Healing/Wracking etc etc no problem. However you need to have built up a reputation within the organization (Almost like Voln Favor or GoS prestige) to gain access to these signs in addition to the mana and spirit drain that comes with them.

The more powerful the sign, the higher the cost of reputation points needed to use them.

I agree. This is most definitely the approach I recommend. As so long as there are options besides traveling to Ta'Vaalor and Solhaven I am completely fine with added upkeep tasks. Who this is going to hurt is your locker character/spell slaves. You will also need to be running tasks for them as well, though I imagine this is the idea.

[Ignot]

They should get rid of the adventure guild, have each society have it's own bounties and bounty point system, different rewards, different badges, etc. Except fixskill/fixstat potions they all need to have that.

[zhelas]

I agree. This is most definitely the approach I recommend. As so long as there are options besides traveling to Ta'Vaalor and Solhaven I am completely fine with added upkeep tasks. Who this is going to hurt is your locker character/spell slaves. You will also need to be running tasks for them as well, though I imagine this is the idea.

They could have a RP event where the council wanted set up point of contacts/government officials/fences etc etc in other cities. This would only become available to folks who have Mastered.

All non mastered members would still either have to work in Solhaven or Ta' Vaalor. Or once you get past rank 10, you move to another city to complete the last 10 ranks.


They should get rid of the adventure guild, have each society have it's own bounties and bounty point system, different rewards, different badges, etc. Except fixskill/fixstat potions they all need to have that.
Honestly I like the adventurer guild still. I think they could definately add some different bounties. It does break up the hunt/rest/hunt/rest etc etc...

COL, Voln, and GoS are all not manditory for someone to play. One does get some extra advantages if they do join. Atleast they have the Adventurer Guild if they wish.

Peace

[nocturnix]

As we all know, with Oscuro tasked to "Bring the other Societies up to standard", changes are a-coming to the Good Council. While I would like to believe that such updates wont include a series of slash and burn nerfs, it would be silly to assume such is the case. ANYWHO, as one who enjoys the use of Sign of Wracking, I've compiled a list of ways in which the ability could be modified while still remaining useful.

Before getting to the list, I would like to make the general suggestion that any penalties placed upon COL signs and sign duration be able to be slowly mitigated by completing tasks, paying bribes, or doing SOMETHING to the effect of Effort = Reward after mastery. This would give those in COL that have already mastered a reason to stay active within the society beyond any token penalties of upkeep. Getting people hooked into super long term goals is a great way to retain the player base. The Adventurer's Guild, and to an extent, Post Cap Training, are prime examples of such a phenomenon.

Feel free to comment, modify, or add your own ideas to the discussion.

1. Added Upkeep to specific COL Powers- Along with the society being more difficult to master and having an added upkeep to continue to use one's powers, there could be some wracking specific upkeep, such as a sign devoted to the process. Use of the sign would drain spirit/mana/stamina to put towards the payment of a debt for use of the particular sign. Constantly feeding resources into the system would allow you to constantly pull them out. Just one idea along these lines of many, I think there is definitely room here to make something work.

2. Flat Use Timer - Obvious in its implications, one would only be able to use Sign of Wracking once every X minutes. A very simplistic and rather unimaginative approach, but likely the easiest to implement and balance. It seems 5 minutes is the normal threshold for these types of restrictions (1107, 160X). My problem with this change is either you're damaging those who use their mules as mana batteries (for spells or whatever), or you are targeting those that use it multiple times per hunt. The latter being the case you would need a 15-20 minute timer on the ability, which would certainly be a bitter pill to swallow.

3. Increased Spirit Cost - Either a flat increase in cost per use, or a sliding scale of cost based upon usage, rank status, tasks completed, etc. I think a jump from 5 spirit to 7 would certainly prove an effective nerf without destroying the overall utility of the sign.

4. Reduced Mana Return - A front runner IMO of what will actually be done, instead of recovering all your mana, you will be given a lesser, flat amount. I'm not a huge fan of this idea, though if there were ways that with effort and time invested we could RAISE the amount of mana recovered to approach full returns I could see it as a viable solution. Another way to implement the idea would be reduced returns for repeated use within X amount of time. Say over a 20 minute period, the first use of the sign yields 100% of your mana, then 75%, then 50%, then 25% and stays at a determined base level until 20 minutes have passed.

5. Spirit/Mana Recovery Penalties - Much like the above idea of a reduced return over a set period of time, a penalty to one's ability to recover spirit with repeated use would prove an excellent way to balance heavy use of the sign. An example of the idea is that over a 1 hour period of time, every use of Sign of Wracking drops you down 1 level of Spirit Recovery. This penalty will stack until the hour passes, or it could be implemented so that it passes after X amount of time from the last use. Remember, there are 3 levels of spirit recovery ABOVE Halflings/Gnomes, and three levels BELOW Dark Elf.

6. Variable Spirit Cost - Unless implemented carefully, people wouldn't bother to use Sign of Wracking without having the maximum spirit Cost on the randomized scale. Rather than straight spirit death, perhaps an added penalty could take affect if you lacked the amount of spirit to convert the randomized outcome of demand. Something harsh, like a stiff Spirit/Mana/Stamina recovery penalty, or a significant loss of health. In my opinion this method of balance would be more interesting than a flat increase in cost.

7. Allotted Uses Per Day - Similar to a timer, but more along the lines of a Self-charging item. You would get X amount of uses of the sign in a day, to be used at whatever point you desired, then use of the sign would be removed until a set amount of time has passed, a set amount of tasks have been completed, or a set price has been paid. One could then implement a means of raising this threshold with continued active service within the Council of Light.

8. Prolonged Exposure Vulnerability - Either by having the time at which the exposure from using your sign be randomized, having multiple triggers for exposure, or adding new ways of exposing one's use of powers, the idea remains the same. You increase the likelihood of members of the Council getting caught by non-members. I will add to this bullet the increased penalty in being caught using your signs. The greater the penalties, the greater the justification for more powerful abilities.

9. Cosmetic Symptoms Of Spirit Drain/Sign use - Many people wont use 130 because it makes you throw up in your mouth, fall over like a retard, and basically look weak and foolish (Unless you're an empath). If added cosmetic penalties from having reduced spirit were put into affect, they could either act as part of number 8, creating a chance your spirit usage will be noted by non-members, AND will discourage characters not wishing to portray themselves as weak, peeked, feeble, wobbly, light-headed, etc. The only downside to this change would be the scroll it would create as some characters are bound to ignore the messaging the use creates.

10. Increased Penalties to Spirit Loss - This is another penalty which could be potentially crippling to wracking if implemented too harshly. I believe I remember Oscuro favoring such a method, however, so I imagine it is likely to come to pass. Basically, using spirit would affect your PC more harshly than it does now. Not only would you lose AS/DS, you would drop in TD, CS, CMAN strength/defense, Recoveries (Health, Spirit, Mana, Stamina), and stats. I don’t think I need to go into much detail on this one. It could be done well, or it could be done poorly.

11. Delayed/Staggered Mana Returns - A suggestion of Belnia's, I believe, you would upon activation of the Sign of Wracking receive 20% of your current mana pool, then over a set period of time continue to receive 20% of your mana pool until 100% of it has been returned. Helpful for Semi's and Squares, Not so much for Pures IMO. Still, it is one possible nerf worth listing.

My characters whole training path depends on being able to wrack multiple times in one hunt.

If they nerf that style of hunting, essentially they are nerfing my character into usefullness (also my sorcerer too) and I will cancel my accounts. Period. So you can forward that information on to those who disagree with you.

[droit]

Indeed.

[m444w]

Nerfing more shit is just stupid. They should just fix Voln to bring it in line with the other two societies.

[Sean]

I don't see why there couldn't be some upkeep involved especially for our use of the more powerful signs.

You want to use Sign of Shields/Swords/Healing/Wracking etc etc no problem. However you need to have built up a reputation within the organization (Almost like Voln Favor or GoS prestige) to gain access to these signs in addition to the mana and spirit drain that comes with them.

The more powerful the sign, the higher the cost of reputation points needed to use them.

Might I also suggest an upkeep on your spells as well then.

[Methais]

Here are some great ideas:

- Don't nerf wracking.

- Restore Symbol of Dreams to its old form so it's useful again.

- Take comfort in the fact that you can hunt anywhere you want at any level and get free crit padding and minimum herb RT as a member of GoS.

- Accept the fact that each society has different benefits and incentives for joining.

[diethx]

Here are some great ideas:

- Don't nerf wracking.

- Restore Symbol of Dreams to its old form so it's useful again.

- Take comfort in the fact that you can hunt anywhere you want at any level and get free crit padding and minimum herb RT as a member of GoS.

- Accept the fact that each society has different benefits and incentives for joining.

:yeahthat:

[zhelas]

Might I also suggest an upkeep on your spells as well then.

Hell I am a Sorcerer. I have enough components that I need to carry for upkeep on 740, 725, 730, and 714.

Trust me I don't want anymore upkeep. It is nice to have completed COL and once it was done I don't have to think about it. Change is coming whether I want it or not.

I F'ing hate the nerf bat. Why not bring the other societies up to par? I just don't see that happening. :(

[Methais]

Hell I am a Sorcerer. I have enough components that I need to carry for upkeep on 740, 725, 730, and 714.

Trust me I don't want anymore upkeep. It is nice to have completed COL and once it was done I don't have to think about it. Change is coming whether I want it or not.

I F'ing hate the nerf bat. Why not bring the other societies up to par? I just don't see that happening. :(

It's ok. RL society is about to be nerfed too.

[Nilandia]

While I agree that downtweaks in any form are generally not desirable, we do have to bear in mind that societies are intended to be optional, and that any character should be able to do just fine without their benefits. Uptweaking societies would weaken that premise, and instead make them more of a requirement than they already are.

When I talk to people about training characters and society comes up, the other person always asks which society a character is in and not if they're in one. If I tell someone that a character I play isn't in a society for whatever reason, they'll almost invariably make a comment of how I'm short-changing myself or they'll try to convince me to have the character join a particular one.

In addition, I've seen a number of people over the years post their character builds that rely upon a specific society power, particularly wracking. While I wouldn't say that it's a bad thing, since it's making use of an ability that's there for use, it does make one wonder that so many people base their whole character around it.

Gretchen

[Fallen]

In addition, I've seen a number of people over the years post their character builds that rely upon a specific society power, particularly wracking. While I wouldn't say that it's a bad thing, since it's making use of an ability that's there for use, it does make one wonder that so many people base their whole character around it.

Gretchen

Well that's simple. More mana = more fun.

[zhelas]

In addition, I've seen a number of people over the years post their character builds that rely upon a specific society power, particularly wracking. While I wouldn't say that it's a bad thing, since it's making use of an ability that's there for use, it does make one wonder that so many people base their whole character around it.

Gretchen

If I had to guess.

-Being able to hunt and fry. Especially with being a younger character. Plink, Plink, Plink. WTF it is not dead yet? I am out of mana! ::sigh::

-Extend the hunting. The hope to get some loot in a poor treasure system. The hope to finish a bounty.

-Spell ups. I know you don't need to spell up to 4hrs all the time. However many folks do. 4hrs of spells = less upkeep.

It can be frustrating to sit around waiting for mana to return.

As Evarin said:
Mana = More Fun!

Peace

[zhelas]

It's ok. RL society is about to be nerfed too.

That might be a good thing :P However I will have to see what is released! :)

[diethx]

lol @ more fun. DON'T YOU KNOW THAT ISN'T ALLOWED HERE?!?!?

[Lilabell]

I don't want wracking to be nerfed either. Sacrifice is nice, but not as nice as the full store of mana that wracking provides.

[Rimalon]

I haven't been reading the threads here or on the officials very carefully, but did anyone mention just a straight cooldown for Wracking, yet?

15 minutes would probably balance the sign straight away. Knowing Simu, they'd probably go for 30.

It would sort of screw over those people who hoard +Aura, +spirit, +spirit recovery items and/or have a horde of WoL-ing clerics, yeah, but in theory the other (rather useless) signs would be improved/changed to give them options in which to use all of that extra spirit.

[Fallen]

I haven't been reading the threads here or on the officials very carefully, but did anyone mention just a straight cooldown for Wracking, yet?

15 minutes would probably balance the sign straight away. Knowing Simu, they'd probably go for 30.

It would sort of screw over those people who hoard +Aura, +spirit, +spirit recovery items and/or have a horde of WoL-ing clerics, yeah, but in theory the other (rather useless) signs would be improved/changed to give them options in which to use all of that extra spirit.

I suggested it, but among the options presented that is among my least favorite. I rather they balance the sign by having it penalize your spirit recovery. That way you can make USE of all those enhancives to bring you back up to a reasonable level of wracking ability.

[Rimalon]

I rather they balance the sign by having it penalize your spirit recovery.

Yeah, I probably like this better too. It doesn't stop a group of 5 WoL-ing Clerics from generating uber amounts of mana at a table, but that'd be rare, and they'd have no urgent need for that mana anyway.

[Fallen]

Yeah, you could just have them send you mana instead of spirit.

[Gnomad]

How about making Symbol of Mana worthwhile, while we're at it.

Sym Mana: Doubles mana recovery for 5 minutes. Not refreshable.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I suggested it, but among the options presented that is among my least favorite. I rather they balance the sign by having it penalize your spirit recovery. That way you can make USE of all those enhancives to bring you back up to a reasonable level of wracking ability.

They don't balance abilities based on whether the min/maxers in the game can still use it just as easily after they nerf it. They make the mistake of nerfing abilities that the min-maxers enjoy abusing/figuring out, and that the casual players never take full advantage of.

Who was the GM that was going to balance the other two societies against the one that's already the best mechanically (Sunfist)...was it Oscuro?

[Fallen]

Oscuro, yes.

[Stanley Burrell]

Not that this is related to my Paladin CoL'er casting 1604 at manna bread I'll be keeping an ample supply of in the future if any changes occur specifically related to spirit regeneration penalties... but:

When I start purifying manna bread if a spirit regeneration penalty goes into effect, do I actually have to sit down and rest after I eat it, or be seated while eating it?

Sometimes I PEER out of rooms that are nodes, adjacent to the hunting field, in order to see if there's a lot of bad guys hanging out; and, if there are, I usually go 1630 apeshit with WRACKING and then move one room back to a node. Do you have to stay sitting or lying down in the same room? Can it regenerate spirit when you're walking around a hunting area?

I've played GS since time started to exist and I still don't know the mechanical technicalities of manna bread.

[Ignot]

I was under the impression you could eat it all and then go do whatever.

[Stanley Burrell]

I was under the impression you could eat it all and then go do whatever.

Doesn't it tell you to go roll a blunt and sit pow-wow or something? Or am I getting manna bread confused with liberal arts college students again?

[Ignot]

yeah it says you should sit and rest.

[Stanley Burrell]

SHIT

[Methais]

I suggested it, but among the options presented that is among my least favorite. I rather they balance the sign by having it penalize your spirit recovery. That way you can make USE of all those enhancives to bring you back up to a reasonable level of wracking ability.

Yeah, and then when like 5 people start stacking 472384027 enhancives and can wrack almost all the time, Simu will hit a grand slam with the nerf bat and ruin wracking completely.

I still say they should just leave it alone, but if they insist on nerfing it, just give it a 10 minute cooldown.


How about making Symbol of Mana worthwhile, while we're at it.

Sym Mana: Doubles mana recovery for 5 minutes. Not refreshable.

Make it cost favor imo. Don't make it cheap, but don't make it ridiculously expensive either.

[Stanley Burrell]

I suggested it, but among the options presented that is among my least favorite. I rather they balance the sign by having it penalize your spirit recovery. That way you can make USE of all those enhancives to bring you back up to a reasonable level of wracking ability.


Yeah, and then when like 5 people start stacking 472384027 enhancives and can wrack almost all the time, Simu will hit a grand slam with the nerf bat and ruin wracking completely.

My idea is that since spirit regen enhancives are going to keep dropping, that if this is a way to circumvent a spirit regeneration penalty to WRACKING (in a completely non-game-breaking + fair sense too) that it is way less of a nerf than a cooldown period where you can't wrack at all.

There is no way the dev'ers would implement a spirit regeneration penalty to WRACKING specifically and then go on to further castrate it. I seriously don't think they would have that audacity. They aren't exactly going after enhancives -- And if they do, I'd raise a shit-fucking-fit about how people were refunded Premium Points when enchanted shit became blessable again since I've spent a good deal of Premium Points on spirit regen items. If I'd spent Premium Points on Aura enhancives or Max Spirit stuff on my only Premium account, or silver for that matter, for the sheer sake of the coveted double wrack and they implemented a cooldown period, I'd want to stab SIMU until my arm got tired.

[nocturnix]

From the general feeling of this thread is this:

Bring the other societies up, dont nerf an entire hunting strategy and playing style.

GS is a hard game as it is, why make it even harder? There is no way I would be able to fry solo on my spirit casters without wracking the way it is now. Simply no way. And i NEVER group. If you want to make a game with 200 people online a group only game, go for it. But thats like digging your own grave.

I dont see AT ALL how wracking is overpowering characters. I underhunt on my sorcerer and still can barely fry wracking 2 or 3 times in one hunt. And he has 0, thats right 0 enhancives. So if the problem is the enhancives making wracking OPed, then that would mean bringing enhancives in = overpowering wracking = nerf wracking = ruin my 2 main characters hunting ability = end of gemstone for me.

If you are going to nerf wracking, you might as well do a complete review of spell mana costs to bring everyone in line and make it possible to fry solo, because as it is now the only characters I play who can fry every time easily are melee.

[Fallen]

How the hell is making wracking less able to be abused going to make sense when in GoS you can get stamina enhancives to max out mana gains? An empath can 3x Physical Training, has a spell which can completely replenish all stamina every 5 minutes, and you can get enhancives which ups your total stamina as well as your stamina recovery. It is bullshit to say that they give a rat's ass about stopping Min Maxers.

[Rathgar]

There is a simple solution.

> sign of wrack
You sign symbol of wracking.
>
You feel drained!
>
Roll:59 (d100 41)
>
Suddenly you feel the ground beneath shift as dark tendrils start emanating around your feet. The tendrils circle your ankles and you are bound!

MK:203 (droll:120) Stance: Tiger (droll:101)
You are grabbed!
...
You have been thrown down!
...
Mk (droll:140) Save (droll:19)
Stamina Drained!
...
You have been knocked out!
...hits for 20 pts of concussion damage!

Slowly you feel yourself slowly melting into the ground, the dark tendrils pulling you deeper and deeper. You make a frantic attempt to dig your fingernails into the ground
but the pull of the shadowy tentacles are too strong. You succumb to darkness and dream of your fondest memories of home and family.
RT: 30 sec

[Hell]
You are surrounded in darkness which is only illuminated by a few sparks of fire from the distance. The cold surface of obsidian mixed with black ash forms most of this limitless cavern. The cries of men and women in intense pain are heard all throughout this sweltering land. Nearby you see a pile of human and elf body parts and the staked heads of both sexes of varying races. You also see a small sign made of bone and human skin.
Exits: South
>
read sign
>
The sign reads:

"Abandon hope all who enter here."
>
s
>
You have to get up first!
stand
>
You struggle in futility as the cords made from halfling intestines constricts it's bond over you.
>
A massive Ver'sher Barbed demon arrives.
>
A massive Ver'Sher Barbed demon states, "Well, well, well... looks like I'm going to have some fun!"
>
A massive Ver'Sher Barbed demon turns you over and holds you down!
RT: 3 seconds
>
A massive Ver'Sher Barbed Demon inserts his barbed prick into your anus and begins to ravage you mercilessly!
RT: 66529 sec
>scream
You scream!
>
The Ver'Sher barbed demon laughs!
>
The Ver'Sher Barbed demon growls, "Oh we won't nerf Wracking, this is just too much fun! And don't try logging off either, I'll still be here along with your RT."
>scream
You scream!
>
The Ver'Sher Barbed demon laughs!
>

[Methais]

How the hell is making wracking less able to be abused going to make sense when in GoS you can get stamina enhancives to max out mana gains? An empath can 3x Physical Training, has a spell which can completely replenish all stamina every 5 minutes, and you can get enhancives which ups your total stamina as well as your stamina recovery. It is bullshit to say that they give a rat's ass about stopping Min Maxers.

When has logic ever been Simu's strong point?

[Fatsix]

gs is already a chore, why make it a full time job now? Lets say they implement a time penalty on wracking. Spell up and go hunt, wrack and then die. So now you have to wait 15 minutes on top of the death, plus the time to wait from wracking from the spellup. and on top of it being on xxx, that blows. I'd rather see it get some sort of favor like voln, as long as you hunt, that would supply plenty of favor to use the signs and hinder the use of spell mules, which would suck, but wracking twice in a hunt is a necesity, specially doing bounties that require 28 OTF critters to be eliminated which consumes alot of time and mana as it is. Or put a time penalty for using a multiple ammount of signs compaired to level, like bard spellsong penalties. Take back sign of clotting, and sign of recognition, sign of hoplessness, and nerf staunching, I really dont need 25 minutes of not bleeding, 5 will do just fine.
Seems like this should be on the back burner and simu should focus on more important things, like fixing the bounty system, specially the gem and critter tasks. OR DOING THINGS THAT MAKE MORE PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY AND WORTH THEIR TIME. If i can only cast elemental magic, why do i get construct tasks 5 times in a row? (GM told me to ask for easier tasks, constructs are at the lower level of my tasks, moron.) And brown zircons are the rarest gem in elanthia, takes 3 days to find 9 of them and i get 200 bounty points? F-that. I havent found one of those in 30 levels from normal hunting. I'm done bitching now. oH and if anything gets changed we whould get a fixstat and fixskill as well, since everyone builds their characters around a society :shoot:

[Some Rogue]

Wall of text crits you for 50000.

You die.

[Ignot]

GS is a hard game as it is

Since when did this happen!?

[Fallen]

It looks like from the numbers people are posting for Wracking, they are receiving a paltry hit to their DS. I think the desperaty I notice is because in OTF Scouts are pushing me into offensive and beyond by ambushing. People are wracking below 5 spirit and are seeing as little as 25-30 DS lost in the process. That isn't a decent risk Vrs Reward scenario.

I think the penalty to your DS should be more severe. Something along the lines of 10% of your stat/skill based DS drops for every 10% of your spirit that you're missing. If you wrack to half of your spirit, you lose half of your Stat/Skill based DS. That wont actually be a pure 50% as caster's spell based DS will not fluctuate.

[droit]

That sounds reasonable. I was surprised by those numbers too, as I had always assumed the DS drop mirrored the AS drop of having low spirit. Glad I asked. There should definitely be some risk involved.

[Fallen]

That sounds reasonable. I was surprised by those numbers too, as I had always assumed the DS drop mirrored the AS drop of having low spirit. Glad I asked. There should definitely be some risk involved.

Agreed. I will readily admit I also thought the DS penalties more severe.

[Stanley Burrell]

Start nerfing CS and TD when your spirit points drop below 75% too?

Good thread, good thread.

[Fatsix]

my ds drops from 500ish to 390-400 going down to 2 sp. add on top of that a swarm and its not pretty.

[Fallen]

Start nerfing CS and TD when your spirit points drop below 75% too?

Good thread, good thread.

That would make it pointless to anyone but those that near tripled. Do we really want to get back to that nonsense again?

[Some Rogue]

But it's fair that it drops AS?

[Gnomad]

RT: 66529 sec
I can't be the only one who read this post and thought "I doubt they're using 32 bits for RT", can I?

[Fallen]

But it's fair that it drops AS?

AS can be increased via a great many ways, and is not nearly as closely balanced as CS. If I could get CS as readily as a swinger can garner AS I would be all for linking the two. As it stands now it is Quartz orbs, and a self-cast non-imbeddable Paladin spell.

Further, if loss of spirit dropped CS/TD, could squares afford to use it at all? Your supposed bane is TD, and even as readily as TD is available via spells, most squares refuse to spell-tank.

[Sean]

AS can be increased via a great many ways, and is not nearly as closely balanced as CS. If I could get CS as readily as a swinger can garner AS I would be all for linking the two. As it stands now it is Quartz orbs, and a self-cast non-imbeddable Paladin spell.

Tying items like enhansives to spell/skills tweaks is a horrible idea.

[Some Rogue]

I was actually looking at this from a wizard point of view as I doubt many squares feel the need to wrack....

[Sean]

Further, if loss of spirit dropped CS/TD, could squares afford to use it at all? Your supposed bane is TD, and even as readily as TD is available via spells, most squares refuse to spell-tank.

How many squares are wracking? He said >75% of spirit. Losing your Swords/Shields shouldn't put you below that.

[Fallen]

I was actually looking at this from a wizard point of view as I doubt many squares feel the need to wrack....

Wizards definitely get the short end of the stick with Wracking, but they still use it heavily to spell up. Their spell durations are terrible. Further, the ever popular Immolation wizard build wracks just as hard as any sorcerer/cleric.

[Fallen]

How many squares are wracking? He said >75% of spirit. Losing your Swords/Shields shouldn't put you below that.

You're saying a sign specific penalty to target those casters who wrack, yet avoids nerfing COL swingers in any way? One might say that comes off as a bit bias.

[CrystalTears]

You're saying a sign specific penalty to target those casters who wrack, yet avoids nerfing COL swingers in any way? One might say that comes off as a bit bias.IRONY! Your suggestions are sorcerer biased already.

[Sean]

You're saying a sign specific penalty to target those casters who wrack, yet avoids nerfing COL swingers in any way? One might say that comes off as a bit bias.

Um it already effects CoL swingers now if they wrack by lowering AS...

[Fallen]

IRONY! Your suggestions are sorcerer biased already.

How? I listed any number of nerfs to Wracking, to include CS/TD, Stat based penalties. You do also realize that any nerf to wracking affects more than just sorcerers..right?

[Fallen]

Um it already effects CoL swingers now if they wrack by lowering AS...

I agree that AS is singled out while DS is left largely alone. I do think there should be stiffer penalties for going low in spirit which universally affect both pures and squares. However, as COL swingers don't have the need to drop their spirit that much at once, any CS/TD based penalty would primarily target pures and not squares.

[Fallen]

>>>10. Increased Penalties to Spirit Loss - This is another penalty which could be potentially crippling to wracking if implemented too harshly. I believe I remember Oscuro favoring such a method, however, so I imagine it is likely to come to pass. Basically, using spirit would affect your PC more harshly than it does now. Not only would you lose AS/DS, you would drop in TD, CS, CMAN strength/defense, Recoveries (Health, Spirit, Mana, Stamina), and stats. I don’t think I need to go into much detail on this one. It could be done well, or it could be done poorly. >>

From my original post. I believe if done with restraint, this method of balancing wracking would be viable. However, if the penalties are too severe, you will ruin not only Wracking, but any use of signs which drain spirit. If the penalties capped off at how bad your stats CS/TD/DS/AS were at a depart without deeds for going down to 1 spirit, I imagine that would be acceptable. What would casters do? Most likely cut out any uneeded skills to get every spell rank they could to off-set any loss of CS. It would basically mean more cookie cutter builds similar to what took place before Growing Pains.

[Fatsix]

isnt GoS biased twords swingers and ranged anyway? with the ability to fight through wounds, i see that as huge, and not training in cm due to huge spell costs being a pure keeps me away, but it was my choice.
simu pushed alot of people away from voln with the limited undead in the higher trains, having to under hunt soul golems and wind wraiths to just get favor and no exp just to be able to use dreams later royally sucked. and then took dreams away, so why stay for a measly 15 as and brawling skills that you trained in that are useless above 70? years ago it was the norm to get to level 5, wear full plate and voln fu until they finally caught on.
so why cant col stay the way it is? and modify voln to be non biased society, since they already are and just need to be revamped. changing wracking is gonna kill a lot of characters, because now your going to be back to the rest/hunt/rest/hunt/rest/hunt that bounties were supposed to relieve. now you gotta hunt 6 times just to get a bounty finished. why not just nerf GS4 and go back to gs3.
on a side note, it costs me 96 mana to sing up 1003, 1006, 1009, 1010, 1019. and 41 mana to renew them every 7.5 minutes. so its inevitable that i am getting a renewal during a hunt, and if i gotta cast 1040, forget about it.
DS 11 spirit stance def. 511
DS 6 spirit stance def 476
ds 2 spirit stance def 436
seems fair to me.

and is everyone fogeting that we DO get penalized for extending too much spirit? 20 minutes and stackable for going lower than 5 spirit in public.

[Fallen]

Apparently any defense against nerfing wracking is trying to fuck squares over. Silly if you ask me. The DS loss from wracking is pretty paltry, it should be the same as the AS loss.

level 56 DE Wizard
4x runestaff
No armor
No encumberance
10 spirit
Full health
Self-spelled only

Stance Defensive, Full Spirit (10):
AS: +16 vs DS: +422 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +49 = -332

Stance Guarded, Full Spirit (10):
AS: +16 vs DS: +394 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +61 = -292

Stance Offensive, Full Spirit (10):
AS: +16 vs DS: +280 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +37 = -202

Stance Defensive, Half Spirit (5):
AS: +16 vs DS: +406 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +55 = -310
DS dropped by 16 vs full spirit

Stance Guarded, Half Spirit (5):
AS: +16 vs DS: +379 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +27 = -311
DS dropped by 15 vs full spirit

Stance Offensive, Half Spirit (5):
AS: +16 vs DS: +273 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +84 = -148
DS dropped by 7 vs full spirit

Stance Defensive, One Spirit:
AS: +16 vs DS: +375 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +73 = -261
DS dropped by 47 vs full spirit
DS dropped by 31 vs halfl spirit

Stance Guarded, One Spirit:
AS: +16 vs DS: +352 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +92 = -219
DS dropped by 42 vs full spirit
DS dropped by 27 vs half spirit

Stance Offensive, One Spirit:
AS: +16 vs DS: +261 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +36 = -184
DS dropped by 19 vs full spirit
DS dropped by 12 vs half spirit

[Fatsix]

Deftone (at level 80), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 81

[droit]

I think this whole discussion has gone on too far and taken some weird turns. Just slap a cooldown period during which wracking costs extra spirit on it and call it good.

[Fallen]

What do you think? 5 jumps to 6, then 7, etc or something more severe?

[droit]

Without crunching any numbers, I would say a jump to 7 during a 15 minute cooldown period sounds about right.

How long does it take halflings to recoup 5 spirit?

[Fallen]

Not long, even faster for those like Jinsem, but you don't balance off the min-maxers.

[thefarmer]

Not long, even faster for those like Jinsem, but you don't balance off the single-minded freaks of nature who have hit the max spirit with enhancives.

Poor Jinsem. His guys always get the nerf bat.

[droit]

OFFICIAL:

These are the AS/DS penalties for having low spirit points:

Less than 25% Max Spirit: -50% AS, -30% Evade, Block and Parry DS
25 to 49% Max Spirit: -35% AS, -20% Evade, Block and Parry DS
50 to 74% Max Spirit: -20% AS, -10% Evade, Block and Parry DS
75%+ Max Spirit: No penalty.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team
Voln/CoL Guru

[Tea & Strumpets]

OFFICIAL:

These are the AS/DS penalties for having low spirit points:

Less than 25% Max Spirit: -50% AS, -30% Evade, Block and Parry DS
25 to 49% Max Spirit: -35% AS, -20% Evade, Block and Parry DS
50 to 74% Max Spirit: -20% AS, -10% Evade, Block and Parry DS
75%+ Max Spirit: No penalty.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team
Voln/CoL Guru

The DS part doesn't matter because the only blade swingers that wrack are semi's. Even with the DS drop after wracking, nothing like level is hitting me in guarded stance.

They should just nerf CS after wracking along those same criteria. Then I can just continue to wrack and spikethorn, and the society will get balanced without it affecting me.

Also, my idea is completely unbiased and leave Fallen alone you meanies.

[Swami71]

They might nerf wracking some. But maybe they'll improve many other "signs". There are a lot of signs I never use. All the sunfist sigils seem pretty useful just crappy durations.

[thefarmer]

They might nerf wracking some. But maybe they'll improve many other "signs". There are a lot of signs I never use. All the sunfist sigils seem pretty useful just crappy durations.

Really?

There are the only ones that are useless.

11 - Hypnosis
Calms one target, subject to warding
Duration: Short
Cost: 1 spirit point

17 - Possession
Mass calm, subject to warding
Duration: Short
Cost: 4 spirit points

20 - Hopelessness
Spirit death, including decay
Duration: Instant
Cost: 2 deeds

3 useless signs out of 20 isn't a bad ratio.

Voln on the other hand..

[droit]

I would add clotting to that list, and madness is only used by a few people (and rarely at that).

It's still a good ratio, but only because their AS/DS signs are split into 6 separate ones.

[thefarmer]

I thought about adding those, but the fact that they CAN do something useful made me not.

[droit]

Well, if you take the three unhelpful signs you mentioned and include the two I did, then consolidate the AS/DS signs (at the very least, striking+smiting and warding+defending), that's 7 out of 20 signs that aren't really necessary.

[thefarmer]

Why would you consolidate them?

[Swami71]

Really?



Sign of Recognition (needed and on par with sunfist)
Signal (worthless but its only the 2nd rank so okay)
Sign of Warding (good)
Sign of Striking (good)
Sign of Clotting (useless just use staunching)
Sign of Thought (good)
Sign of Defending (good)
Sign of Smiting (good
Sign of Staunching (good)
Sign of Deflection (good)
Sign of Hypnosis (useless to me)
Sign of Swords (good)
Sign of Shields (good)
Sign of Dissipation (good but I rarely use cause of all the spirit costs)
Sign of Healing (useless, not worth the cost and rarely helpful
Sign of Madness (useless to most and not worth the cost of spirit)
Sign of Possession (useless, to much cost for the duration)
Sign of Wracking (Amazing)
Sign of Darkness (labeling useless cause it costs to much spirit for my liking)
Sign of Hopelessness (beyond useless, someone please explain the point of this one)

Yeah, I count 7. Which is a lot. Cause when I look at the sunfist sigils they all look good (only downside is duration and a little less AS/DS). So I'm hoping this move will make CoL as a whole better with the sacrifice to wracking.

[zhelas]

Sign of Healing (useless, not worth the cost and rarely helpful

I agree with your list except Sign of Healing is quite useful at times. It really just depends on ones playing style.

My Dwarf warrior uses it quite a bit if he is close to death. Before GoS quite a few empaths used it when they are being swamped by folks needing to get healed.

[Swami71]

I agree with your list except Sign of Healing is quite useful at times. It really just depends on ones playing style.

My Dwarf warrior uses it quite a bit if he is close to death. Before GoS quite a few empaths used it when they are being swamped by folks needing to get healed.

I'll concede with you there. I never use it but its decent. Still I think the sunfist sigils are much better overall 1-20. I love sigil of determination.

[Fallen]

The DS part doesn't matter because the only blade swingers that wrack are semi's. Even with the DS drop after wracking, nothing like level is hitting me in guarded stance.

They should just nerf CS after wracking along those same criteria. Then I can just continue to wrack and spikethorn, and the society will get balanced without it affecting me.

Also, my idea is completely unbiased and leave Fallen alone you meanies.

My method of wracking and using implosion is better than your method of using wracking and using Spike Thorn, so its all good. Glad you got my back, though, dawg.

[Fatsix]

at the worst i'd like to see a penalty for wracking multiple times. give it a duration value based on level like the other signs, this way the older you are the longer it lasts, cause the older you are in GoS, the more stamina you can have trained in. anything more than twice and spirit regen would take a hit and get progressively worse. since we sold our soul to begin with make it based on that.
after just writing that, why not just adjust the sign durations for col? because having to renew sign of shields or swords twice as much would hinder the ammount of times you could wrack directly. but that doesnt solve the problem with spell mules. so we would be penalized for actually "playing".

[crb]

Wracking and col are not overpowered.

You cannot do an apples to apples comparison of Col's Wracking vs. the other societies ways of gaining mana.

COL has the best way of gaining mana.

VOLN has the best fog, in addition to providing new means of attack (fu, retribution), full decay prevention, self blessing, etc.

GoS gives you the ability to hunt, with free crit weighting, anywhere in the game.

If people get a stick up their ass about making wracking be equivalent to GoS and Voln mana abilities (and GoS is pretty hot with mana with the right build as FALLEN has pointed out). Then I want COL to be equivalent to GOS in hunting flexibility, and I want a group fog like VOLN. And fuck it, I also want to be able to use my society abilities, all of them, in public. Afterall, if everything must be equal, make everything equal.

We should start thinking up a COL equivalent of VolnFU. Maybe since COL is "evil" we can get things like Vulcan Death Pinch. Dark Side of the Force Choke, Ninjitsu Poisoning and Sand in the eyes.

Then how to make a GOS equivalent hunting system for COL. What if it was two parts. COL members would walk around tagging liabo converted characters which teleported them to secret underground temples where other COL members hunted these characters for experience?

[Tea & Strumpets]

My method of wracking and using implosion is better than your method of using wracking and using Spike Thorn, so its all good. Glad you got my back, though, dawg.

Not true. I read the sorceror boards one time, and even though implosion is the most overpowered spell in the game, apparently it's also completely useless for hunting because you get no treasure!

[Fallen]

Not true. I read the sorceror boards one time, and even though implosion is the most overpowered spell in the game, apparently it's also completely useless for hunting because you get no treasure!

Pshh. Wracking is the most overpowered ability/spell in this game, not Implosion. Didn't you get the memo?

[Fatsix]

i agree with crb. also with GoS you can swing and cast with major injuries, cant do that with col. so it seems that GoS is the overpowered society. Like i said before, Simu needs to look at something else to screw up.

[Izzy]

Wracking and col are not overpowered.

You cannot do an apples to apples comparison of Col's Wracking vs. the other societies ways of gaining mana.


I tend to agree that the societies are apples vs oranges. The various abilities don't need to have an exact reciprocal in each society...that's why you have to pick one. My only gripe is that voln's mana recovery symbols is fucking stupid. I don't need it to be AMAZING, just reasonably useful. 2 deeds?! Fuck that.

[Fallen]

I tend to agree that the societies are apples vs oranges. The various abilities don't need to have an exact reciprocal in each society...that's why you have to pick one. My only gripe is that voln's mana recovery symbols is fucking stupid. I don't need it to be AMAZING, just reasonably useful. 2 deeds?! Fuck that.

I haven't seen a single person attempting to make the argument of Voln being overpowered in its current incarnation. I think its silly to use Voln's weaknesses as the basis of any standard of measurement.

[Methais]

Pshh. Wracking is the most overpowered ability/spell in this game, not Implosion. Didn't you get the memo?

Meteor Swarm is the most overpowered spell in the game actually, if you leave Andraste out of the equation.

I'm in GoS and already used my society reset, so it's not like I'm arguing it for my own benefit.

But this whole thread and all the ideas in it are stupid.

Wracking is not overpowered.

Wracking doesn't need a nerf.

[Sean]

I haven't seen a single person attempting to make the argument of Voln being overpowered in its current incarnation. I think its silly to use Voln's weaknesses as the basis of any standard of measurement.

Why? You get to buy mana from voln at 1 deed (or is it 2?) per 50 mana? you can do it nearly infinitely.

[crb]

YA sure, voln sucks for mana. But that is why we have choices.

Not that I'm saying voln should stay sucking (2 deeds is stupid, then again some people have nigh unlimited favor, so just using favor wouldn't work either), but rather I think its good that the societies aren't just cookie cutter copies of each other.

If you want mana, go col, if you want hunting flexibility, and free weighting, even on fireballs, go sunfist. If you want to kill undead, get a free fog (cheaper than training up to 130 for a square), or as pure gain a melee based attack method, go voln. choices choices.

[Izzy]

I haven't seen a single person attempting to make the argument of Voln being overpowered in its current incarnation. I think its silly to use Voln's weaknesses as the basis of any standard of measurement.

I don't know how you got anything like this out of my post.

I said, in effect, "I agree, it's silly to compare the societies' powers as apples to apples because they aren't".

I never said any society was overpowered. I wasn't comparing any society to anything. I simply stated as a point of fact that voln's mana ability is completely and utterly worthless as it exists. I was very specific in that I don't need or want it to be even comparable to the other societies, just usable.

[Fallen]

I don't know how you got anything like this out of my post.

I said, in effect, "I agree, it's silly to compare the societies' powers as apples to apples because they aren't".

I never said any society was overpowered. I wasn't comparing any society to anything. I simply stated as a point of fact that voln's mana ability is completely and utterly worthless as it exists. I was very specific in that I don't need or want it to be even comparable to the other societies, just usable.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, Izzy. I was stating in a general sense that people err when using Voln's lack of mana recovery as a means to justify curtailing COL's. You even said you agree that it is comparing apples to oranges, so my points do not contradict your own.

[CrystalTears]

You shouldn't have quoted Izzy. It didn't make sense if that was the case.

[Izzy]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, Izzy. I was stating in a general sense that people err when using Voln's lack of mana recovery as a means to justify curtailing COL's. You even said you agree that it is comparing apples to oranges, so my points do not contradict your own.

Gotcha. Clearly some non-communication going on here. Carry on :D

[Fallen]

Yes, even I had to re-read carefully to see the point I was trying to make, so I can see where the confusion may have arose. What I was attempting to spell out was that Voln is terrible for regaining mana. Up to 2 deeds for 50 mana? Retarded. Yet when people draw comparisons between Voln and COL, they say "Look at the difference between the two, COL is clearly overpowered."

I think we're on the same wavelength now.

[thefarmer]

Sign of Recognition (needed and on par with sunfist)
Signal (worthless but its only the 2nd rank so okay)
Sign of Clotting (useless just use staunching)
Sign of Hypnosis (useless to me)
Sign of Healing (useless, not worth the cost and rarely helpful
Sign of Madness (useless to most and not worth the cost of spirit)
Sign of Darkness (labeling useless cause it costs to much spirit for my liking)
Yeah, I count 7. Which is a lot. Cause when I look at the sunfist sigils they all look good (only downside is duration and a little less AS/DS). So I'm hoping this move will make CoL as a whole better with the sacrifice to wracking.

Looking back I'll agree on clotting, for some reason I thought it took 1 mana, while staunching used 1 spirit.

Healing isn't useless. Plenty of people use it (empaths especially).
Madness, while it's not something you can use your entire hunt, can be useful.
Darkness is still useful, despite you not wanting to use it.

Compared to Voln, the cost ratio and usefulness is still weighted towards CoL, which was my original point.

[Stanley Burrell]

Along the lines of CLOTTING + STAUNCHING taking up space garbage, I'd like to see THROW, PUNCH and KICK appear once, too, in the Path to Enlightenment. Replace the later or earlier 3 with something. That does something. That isn't the same something already being done.

Kthnx.

[Swami71]

Looking back I'll agree on clotting, for some reason I thought it took 1 mana, while staunching used 1 spirit.

Healing isn't useless. Plenty of people use it (empaths especially).
Madness, while it's not something you can use your entire hunt, can be useful.
Darkness is still useful, despite you not wanting to use it.

Compared to Voln, the cost ratio and usefulness is still weighted towards CoL, which was my original point.

Don't know much about voln and I agree with you CoL is better than voln. But I was meaning that the change to bring it in line with sunfist could be good if they improve those 7 signs and down tweak wracking.

[Fatsix]

Don't know much about voln and I agree with you CoL is better than voln. :wtf:

why not swap symbol of dreams and symbol of mana? Let mana be favor based and dreams be deed based.

i agree on the removal and upgrade of repetative symbols/signs

[Fallen]

:wtf:

why not swap symbol of dreams and symbol of mana? Let mana be favor based and dreams be deed based.

i agree on the removal and upgrade of repetative symbols/signs

That's a DAMN fine suggestion, Fatsix. You should make that one on the officials. Put dreams back, but have it be limited use a day (nothing too drastic, like 1 hours? total dreaming a day), and have it pulse throughout the dream with a chance to remove a deed.

[Fatsix]

Is there a post already running over there? I can't access play.net from work, unless i had a link.

[Fallen]

I will try to get you a link from which you can reply.

[Fallen]

Is there a post already running over there? I can't access play.net from work, unless i had a link.

https://www.play.net/forums/messages...mp;message=540

I personally use this link to backdoor onto the officials. It will ask me something about Security and give me a yes or no prompt. If I click yes, the site is blocked. If I click no, it will ask me to log in. Sometimes when I log in the site will automatically block. If that happens I click on the link again and I will be logged in and taken in a round about way to the boards. Other times it just lets me onto the site without hassle. Stupid firewall.

[Fallen]

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=20&topic=6

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=20&topic=6&message=2685

There are some more links if the others don't work.

[Fatsix]

I'd like to offer a suggestion to the nerf wracking/ make symbol of mana like wracking dilema.

Swap costs of symbol of mana and symbol of dreams, de-nerf dreams a bit. (put the exp back on)
Symbol of Mana- 5 favor?
Symbol of Dreams- 5 favor? + possibility of loosing a deed or two. 1 hour (accumulated dreaming) in a 24 hour period. Have some type of roll when you enter your dream, Bad dream and you loose a deed, Die in your dream you loose two. Was just an idea, not sure if favor costs are in line with other symbols.

I agree that voln and col need to get rid of the reduntant signals/signs. However all three societies do not and should not have all the same equal skills. There would be no point in joining one over the other, so some Bias has to remain.


should work, and draw some attention, if Simu dont kill it with not making it to hard to dream without loosing a deed, and not make it too easy.

[Fallen]

5 favor for unlimited mana is a bit much. They need a way so that someone hunting undead couldn't have infinite mana with absolutely no drawbacks. Even wracking has SOME affect on your AS/DS, and can only be done 2 times without a prolonged wait.

[Fatsix]

i thought 1 favor was 1 like level undead kill? been about 10 years since i was in voln. half mana per use would work, make it favor intensive so you cant run around with all signs on, symbol of mana and then dream, cause you aint doin it with col, or gos either.

[Khariz]

i thought 1 favor was 1 like level undead kill? been about 10 years since i was in voln. half mana per use would work, make it favor intensive so you cant run around with all signs on, symbol of mana and then dream, cause you aint doin it with col, or gos either.

Doesn't work that way any more. Favor is now granted based on the level of the mob regardless of your level. You can be a capped sorcerer, go kill phantasmas for a couple days and get max spins.

[Methais]

5 favor for unlimited mana is a bit much. They need a way so that someone hunting undead couldn't have infinite mana with absolutely no drawbacks. Even wracking has SOME affect on your AS/DS, and can only be done 2 times without a prolonged wait.

Give it a cooldown and diminishing returns, like how mana leech works.

Make the base mana be higher though, like 100 mana for the first use. Each subsequent use drops the mana returned by x% until you're temporarily unable to use it anymore until the cooldown recovers. Either make it recover in increments like mana leech, or just a flat 0 - 100% cooldown.

Either way, the cooldown perioud shouldn't be more than 5-10 minutes to go from 0% to 100%.

[droit]

Give it a cooldown and diminishing returns, like how mana leech works.

Make the base mana be higher though, like 100 mana for the first use. Each subsequent use drops the mana returned by x% until you're temporarily unable to use it anymore until the cooldown recovers. Either make it recover in increments like mana leech, or just a flat 0 - 100% cooldown.

Either way, the cooldown perioud shouldn't be more than 5-10 minutes to go from 0% to 100%.

This combined with a decent favor cost sounds like a well-balanced power. You should put it on the officials.

[Khariz]

This combined with a decent favor cost sounds like a well-balanced power. You should put it on the officials.

I agree. If you don't do it, or don't want to, I'll do it.

[Methais]

You do it. I'm too lazy.

[Khariz]

You do it. I'm too lazy.

Done.

[Methais]

Link the GM responses that won't happen. I'm too lazy to keep up with the officials and their 1984 message board system.

[Khariz]

Link the GM responses that won't happen. I'm too lazy to keep up with the officials and their 1984 message board system.

Will do.

[droit]

No one is going to respond, but I do think they'll take note.

[Methais]

NO THEY HAVE TO RESPOND RIGHT NOW AND SAY OMG THIS R TEH BEST IDEA EVAR WE'LL GET 2 WRK ON IT RITE NOW SO IT'LL BE READY BY 2012!!!!!1

[Stanley Burrell]

Along the lines of CLOTTING + STAUNCHING taking up space garbage, I'd like to see THROW, PUNCH and KICK appear once, too, in the Path to Enlightenment. Replace the later or earlier 3 with something. That does something. That isn't the same something already being done.

Kthnx.

I am quoting my post.

[Methais]

I am quoting my post.

I am posting your quote.

[Stanley Burrell]

I am posting your quote.

...

I am ninja. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEmss2lg-ug)

[Apotheosis]

whoever nerfs Wracking can insert a part of my anatomy in their mouth and engage in a sucking action.