Rejected Job Offer

[Kuyuk]

So I had a job interview series last week, went to the city, did about 12 interviews with different managers, and then did a follow up tasting a few days later, did great, etc.

They called me on the phone, told me they'd like to make an offer of 48k, and bump it to 50k after 90 days if I can accomplish a few things they were looking for, etc. The relocation package was 2 weeks paid extra on the 1st paycheck, + 1500 reimbursement...

I have a few other things in the hopper, so I sent them this e-mail:

<<Can I get the offer letter with all the details in writing to look over please?


I understand you guys are in a time crunch to try and get the position filled, I am currently in the process of interviews/tasting with a resort up in Vermont and two places here in Atlanta. I am trying to move as fast as possible with them so everyone is satisfied, but I am probably looking at a 2 week timeframe to accomodate the traveling and such.>>

I am a pretty open and honest person, I am interested in the position, but I feel that 48k is about 7k too little to take the position without looking.. the relocation package is nice, however there is no bonus program setup..

They shot back this e-mail:

<< the offer letter is generated after you verbally accept the offer. The two week time frame won't work for us. I understand that you want to see what options are out there for you. If that is the case then we will have to withdraw the offer. If you want to discuss this live I am available tomorrow after 10AM.>>


Maybe it's just me, but aren't offer letters offered, before accepted? Everywhere else I interview, we sit down, write it up, go over it, and I either accepted, or declined, or haggled with.. But they just want to have me accept it before I see any of it in writing? wtf is that?

They wont wait 2 weeks for me, but the process of getting this far to offer me a letter took from december 20th approx... They took 24 days to get to an offer stage, and wont wait longer? The position has been open since October, they've had 2 other people interview, and they obviously didnt take the job...


I'm just bouncing my thoughts out to the world, since I dont really have people to discuss with other than my imagionary online peers.. How would you feel about not getting a phyiscal offer letter before thinking about accepting a job?

Seems shady to me, specially since it is a large corporation.

K.

[Alfster]

They must have loved the professionalism in your email.

[thefarmer]

Seems shady to me, specially since it is a large corporation.

K.

Not really.

It's a large corporation, there's no need for them to sit on their thumbs waiting while you figure out if you want to work there or not. So they let you know that. Plus, they see your response as a bargaining tactic as much as theirs is.

[Kuyuk]

After a month of phone calls and e-mails, both parties lose the professionalism to an extent..

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Do you want to work for a company that treats you with little respect when they should be treating you the best they ever will?

I think your letter was unprofessional, but they don't seem to be very professional themselves, so I'd just call it a wash and find a different job.

[Kuyuk]

<It's a large corporation, there's no need for them to sit on their thumbs waiting while you figure out if you want to work there or not. So they let you know that. Plus, they see your response as a bargaining tactic as much as theirs is.>

True enough. However the position has been open for 2.5 months, with only 3 people taking interest.. one would think they would be a bit more willing to bend a bit to get it filled..


K.

[thefarmer]

I don't see their response as unprofessional.

[Seran]

Depends on the line of work you're in and your relative experience. The company I work for also did the written offers once you informally accepted, which is truly no different than someone making you an offer and asking for a handshake on the spot.

I am surprised however that they offered so much up front when you consider the 2k bump after ninety days. Makes me really curious as to what profession you're in.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I don't see their response as unprofessional.

The choppy what it's written screams unprofessional to me. Like a telegram. STOP. Every sentence was done. STOP. I think this is annoying and unprofessional. STOP. They should have a standard response if they are such a big company. STOP. Or get someone to proof their letters. STOP.

[The Ponzzz]

I'm with SHM here, but tossing away a 50k salary in this economy would make some cringe.

[Skeeter]

I guess it comes down to how bad you need the job. I wasn't able to negotiate for shit on my last job because I needed the job bad, and they knew I needed the job.

I settled for about 5-8k less than I probably should've got, yet I still felt lucky to get the position.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Just a point of clarity, I've never seen a company create an offer letter before the candidate has accepted. Said another way, I always thought it was standard practice to call the candidate, discuss the position, what you are offering and the benefits, and if the candidate accepts, inform them they'll get the official offer letter in the mail which has much more specific information like start date, benefits kick in date, any more specifics around a moving package, etc.

[Rathgar]

If you're a head chef and a decent one ask how much liberty you have with the menu. Get people hooked on your food. Ask for pay raise or you leave for a competing resort.

[thefarmer]

The choppy what it's written screams unprofessional to me. Like a telegram. STOP. Every sentence was done. STOP. I think this is annoying and unprofessional. STOP. They should have a standard response if they are such a big company. STOP. Or get someone to proof their letters. STOP.

If it's personal communication between the hiring manager and the OP, I don't see the phrasing such a unprofessional. Bad? Sloppy? Yes, but unprofessional? Not really. If it's from a committee (with a secretary probably typing it up), then yeah they should have had someone proof it.

I guess it's in how we determine unprofessionalism. Three button suit or two? Winsor tie knot? or the easier version?

Edit: To clarify, I don't see the bad phrasing as treating the OP with less respect, or that it's a sign of anything else important. Again, this is assuming that it's a personal email exchange between him and the manager.

[thefarmer]

Just a point of clarity, I've never seen a company create an offer letter before the candidate has accepted. Said another way, I always thought it was standard practice to call the candidate, discuss the position, what you are offering and the benefits, and if the candidate accepts, inform them they'll get the official offer letter in the mail which has much more specific information like start date, benefits kick in date, any more specifics around a moving package, etc.

This is how it's worked for me. Both when I offered jobs and accepted them.

[Stretch]

I have a few other things in the hopper, so I sent them this e-mail:

<<Can I get the offer letter with all the details in writing to look over please?

I understand you guys are in a time crunch to try and get the position filled, I am currently in the process of interviews/tasting with a resort up in Vermont and two places here in Atlanta. I am trying to move as fast as possible with them so everyone is satisfied, but I am probably looking at a 2 week timeframe to accomodate the traveling and such.>>

I am a pretty open and honest person, I am interested in the position, but I feel that 48k is about 7k too little to take the position without looking.. the relocation package is nice, however there is no bonus program setup..

They shot back this e-mail:

<< the offer letter is generated after you verbally accept the offer. The two week time frame won't work for us. I understand that you want to see what options are out there for you. If that is the case then we will have to withdraw the offer. If you want to discuss this live I am available tomorrow after 10AM.>>


I don't think there's any problem verbally agreeing to terms before getting it in writing and formally accepting an offer, particularly with large corporations.

I also think that this is one of those situations where being forthcoming does not help you. I would refrain from letting them know that you're still interviewing elsewhere, unless they ask.

My guess is that you were their top choice, but they'd also be okay hiring one of the other guys.

I would call tomorrow morning and see if the situation can still be salvaged. With the current job market...take what you can get.

[Ignot]

It's a business and maybe they really can't wait 2 weeks. Maybe they have someone else ready to start that meets their deadline. If they knew your time frames specifically from day one and you kept them up to date on your time frames and plans, etc then fine. If they were unaware and you sprung this on them then I could see why they may be a bit peeved. Other then that i don't see anything wrong with either side, it just didn't work out.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

It's a business and maybe they really can't wait 2 weeks. Maybe they have someone else ready to start that meets their deadline. If they knew your time frames specifically from day one and you kept them up to date on your time frames and plans, etc then fine. If they were unaware and you sprung this on them then I could see why they may be a bit peeved. Other then that i don't see anything wrong with either side, it just didn't work out.

In my experience hiring and interviewing... if you blew out the interview they'll wait any reasonable amount of time. Companies have an amazing proficiency at operating with an open position, if they know it's a critical role that needs just the right person to fill it.

I personally managed a half a billion dollar budget without an accountable Vice President over me for over a year. The veep in roll now was definitely worth the wait, IMO, and I kept from getting myself fired by not making any stupid decisions somehow. Basically what I'm saying is no one is irreplaceable or so critical a few weeks without them will destroy a company. At least, not in my experience.

[Kuyuk]

It's an exec. chef of a hospital.. the letters were from me to the regional recruiter for the company who I've been talking to regularly, so the need for professionalism isnt so high. From day 1, we both discussed that I needed to have multiple options, and not to put all my eggs in 1 basket, regardless of if I can get said basket.

The job manages roughly 98 hourly employees... the menu doesnt really change, it's a 21 day rotating menu for the retail line, a 7 day rotating menu for the patient line, and some higher end catering for the Doctors..

Is it a hard job? Cooking wise, no, it's easy. However, I've been cooking from scratch since I've been in professional kitchens, and this job is just popping a bag open and tossing it in the oven/fryer/on a plate. I have zero interest in that style of cooking. The real job is managing the people and dealing with them.

Either way, I appreciate the discussion everyone has brought up.

K.

[Ignot]

In my experience hiring and interviewing... if you blew out the interview they'll wait any reasonable amount of time. Companies have an amazing proficiency at operating with an open position, if they know it's a critical role that needs just the right person to fill it.

I personally managed a half a billion dollar budget without an accountable Vice President over me for over a year. The veep in roll now was definitely worth the wait, IMO, and I kept from getting myself fired by not making any stupid decisions somehow. Basically what I'm saying is no one is irreplaceable or so critical a few weeks without them will destroy a company. At least, not in my experience.

Geez fine. "SOME" businesses have deadlines to be met when getting staff hired and they may not be able to wait. Such as the case where I work which is a typical big corporation. I thought it would be understood that each company is different, hence my use of the word maybe.

[The Ponzzz]

Ah, well, we didn't know that. We all figured it was working for Chef Ramsey.

[Kuyuk]

I'd take 30k and work for him. Killer learning experience.

[Kranar]

Was Google no good?

[Kuyuk]

budget cuts, and since they didnt resign almost any contractors, we stopped feeding 65% of the people we were once feeding, couple them together and you're out the door..

[Sean of the Thread]

I can watch Ramsay clips endlessly. Even the Lil Gordon clips are funny.

[TheRunt]

It's an exec. chef of a hospital..
The job manages roughly 98 hourly employees... the menu doesnt really change, it's a 21 day rotating menu for the retail line, a 7 day rotating menu for the patient line, and some higher end catering for the Doctors..

this job is just popping a bag open and tossing it in the oven/fryer/on a plate. I have zero interest in that style of cooking. The real job is managing the people and dealing with them.
K.

If your a chef why the hell are you going for a job like this? The pay? which you stated is less than you would like. Other than perhaps cooking for the Drs. your going to be a glorified lunch lady ffs. I in no way call myself a chef but I'm a damn good cook and I'd feel bad taking this job under that title, give me a title kitchen supervisor maybe but exec chef? yeah right. You want to be a Chef then Chef if you want to tell people what can to open first well then.....

[Celephais]

one would think they would be a bit more willing to bend a bit to get it filled..
I know stef was.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Geez fine. "SOME" businesses have deadlines to be met when getting staff hired and they may not be able to wait. Such as the case where I work which is a typical big corporation. I thought it would be understood that each company is different, hence my use of the word maybe.

No need to get all puffy we can both be correct you know ;p

Even with some, I'm just saying I've never met anyone that wasn't replaceable, with exception being at the CEO/very high executive levels.

Based on Kuyuk's additional info, if he's looking for management experience, I'd take it. 98 direct reports is huge and will definitely look good on a resume and he'll grow in ways he never knew he could! It doesn't sound like his ultimate job, but I think in terms of experience and resume building, that's the way to go.

Anyway, just my opinion ;)

[Parkbandit]

With 7% unemployment, it's an employers market out there. You essentially told them that you aren't really that interested in the job they offered you when you said you still had 2 weeks of interviews lined up.

They will find someone who will be happy to get that job and not feel the need to keep interviewing.

[DeV]

With 7% unemployment, it's an employers market out there. You essentially told them that you aren't really that interested in the job they offered you when you said you still had 2 weeks of interviews lined up.

They will find someone who will be happy to get that job and not feel the need to keep interviewing.
This is the feeling I got from the tone of their response e-mail. Even if you are the best candidate for a position, there's always someone else less qualified and much more eager.

[CrystalTears]

How good are these other jobs you're going to interview for that you want to give them a chance? If they're all similar, not sure why you would refuse one that has an offer, even if it is for less money.

Maybe it's just the paranoid person in me, but this isn't the time to be that picky. People are putting up with crap in their current job just because they have a job.

There is nothing saying that you can't take this job, gain some experience from it, then move on. It doesn't have to be permanent. Besides, you never know if this could be your calling and you actually enjoy it.

Personally, it would drive me bonkers if I turned down an offer, kept going on interviews, and never got another offer.

[Kyra231]

How good are these other jobs you're going to interview for that you want to give them a chance? If they're all similar, not sure why you would refuse one that has an offer, even if it is for less money.

Maybe it's just the paranoid person in me, but this isn't the time to be that picky. People are putting up with crap in their current job just because they have a job.

There is nothing saying that you can't take this job, gain some experience from it, then move on. It doesn't have to be permanent. Besides, you never know if this could be your calling and you actually enjoy it.

Personally, it would drive me bonkers if I turned down an offer, kept going on interviews, and never got another offer.

This ^^ I made the mistake of turning down a job a year ago & have been trying to find another ever since, it's gotten pretty craptastic.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Based on Kuyuk's additional info, if he's looking for management experience, I'd take it. 98 direct reports is huge.

I think that's probably the only saving grace about the job (besides the fact that it is a job). And even then, I think that'd be more of a personal thing than anything to beef up a resume. Most places have managers as well as Exec. chefs, so they truly are looking mostly for the skills and a great portfolio from potential chef hires.

If you really, really need the job and nothing else is looking like it'll open up, take it. But I think you'll probably be miserable at your job, not being able to really be creative or change things up or even make stuff from scratch. That's not being cynical or anything, I know from personal experience how depressing it feels to be stifled from trying anything new or the possibility of deviating from the same production list day in and day out.

[CrystalTears]

I think it's more depressing to be unemployed than to be bored/stifled at your job. But that's just me.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I think it's more depressing to be unemployed than to be bored/stifled at your job. But that's just me.

Which would be why I said he should take it unless there's something else that has opened up.

[Keller]

Just a point of clarity, I've never seen a company create an offer letter before the candidate has accepted. Said another way, I always thought it was standard practice to call the candidate, discuss the position, what you are offering and the benefits, and if the candidate accepts, inform them they'll get the official offer letter in the mail which has much more specific information like start date, benefits kick in date, any more specifics around a moving package, etc.

I got my offer letter before I accepted. Not that it's the standard in all industries, but all of my friends from school also got letters before accepting.

[CrystalTears]

I got the letter after I told them I would take the job.

[ViridianAsp]

If your a chef why the hell are you going for a job like this? The pay? which you stated is less than you would like. Other than perhaps cooking for the Drs. your going to be a glorified lunch lady ffs. I in no way call myself a chef but I'm a damn good cook and I'd feel bad taking this job under that title, give me a title kitchen supervisor maybe but exec chef? yeah right. You want to be a Chef then Chef if you want to tell people what can to open first well then.....

LOL, obviously you don't understand that in times of crappy economy the service industry gets hit hard and you try to feed your family any way you can. Yeah, it is kind of a suck job, true. But when you've got bills to pay? You aren't going to be bitching about not working in a top notch kitchen.

Personally, if you think you can do better K. and you've got other offers, I'd take them over this one. It doesn't look like there would be any real advancement, but if it's the better offer? Work this job and keep your line out there for a better opportunity.

[Sean]

2 words... Rainforest Cafe

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I got my offer letter before I accepted. Not that it's the standard in all industries, but all of my friends from school also got letters before accepting.

So you/they interviewed, and the next word you got was a letter in the mail with the particulars of the job offer? Seems disjointed to me.

[Skeeter]

2 words... Rainforest Cafe

Yeah the head chef must make at least 250k there based on what the waitresses can pull in.

[Euler]

little late to the game, but you accept offer then get letter then argue details from letter then sign when happy... or don't if not. You can back out after the letter....unless they called no backsies, then you are screwed.

[Keller]

So you/they interviewed, and the next word you got was a letter in the mail with the particulars of the job offer? Seems disjointed to me.

It might just be the process for students. Screening interview, call-back interview, job offer via phone w/ promise of hard-copy in the mail, received hard-copy, took about a month to weigh options and finally accepted by calling and sending signed offer.

[longshot]

The job manages roughly 98 hourly employees...

I would rather kill myself.

So any updates?

[Kuyuk]

I turned it down.

[CrystalTears]

Seeing as how the title says rejected job offer, we figured you turned it down. Are there are new developments that made you feel better about turning it down?

[Kuyuk]

Not really,

Just to take the job would have cost me like 3k initially (which I dont have), $1500 to break my lease, and then probably 1500 to actually move.. so while I would have been reimbursed $1500 of it, I would have had to either borrow the money or put it on a CC to move in the first place..

While I dont think I'll get this job, I got a phone call regarding a company that has 900 employees that s looking to install a food service program. It'd be a sweet deal, as it's essentially what I was just doing, except that it would not be a subsidy account and be a profit account. Only problem is, I would have to take out a loan to get the program started up..

Also talked to a few of my previous employers up north to see what their season is looking like for hires coming up, have a few leads there.. So it's not like I'm totally in the dark, just mostly :)

I appreciate everyones honesty and help on here.

K.

[Stanley Burrell]

Cooking Assistant $23,096 - 28,862
Executive Chef $55,976 - 85,328
Executive Pastry Chef $45,610 - 68,326
Food Scientist $48,289 - 73,410
Hotel Manager $64,926 - 119,094
Line Cook $19,280 - 25,229
Restaurant Manager $36,778 - 53,916
Sous Chef $31,977 - 49,745

[Kuyuk]

Thanks stan?


K.

[Stanley Burrell]

Thanks stan?


K.

Yeah, I have no fucking clue. This isn't really news.

Please make me flaccid noodle pastry with great haste.