Debating releasing insider Aeternity info to SIMU

[Revalos]

So...remember Aeternity? The game that Aephir left GS3 to start? Well, in May of this year, one day, the website ceased to exist. No warnings, no e-mails. Nothing. To this day, I have no idea what happened. All I can think of is that someone who owned the server equipment died or their house burned down, the server was hacked and formatted, or somehow the server got corrupted and was too expensive to replace.

Still, you'd think SOMEONE would tell those who worked for the company what the hell happened!

That's right...I was a designer that had been only recently hired in the previous october. Things had been falling apart there for some time, but as far as I could determine, work was being done to make it better. Hell, I put in a lot of work trying to get people interested in the game again.

Well, regardless of all that, I've still got everything from my work there. All the design schematics, descriptions, histories, just about everything related to the game itself.

So here's the issue. I've been considering turning it all over to SIMU so they could take a look at it and find some of the more interesting things helpful in designing new spells, new areas, creatures, and stuff. There are also a lot of improvements to how items are handled by the system, a method of changing room descriptions seasonally, a whole heap of stuff.

So...should I just send it for free? Should I try to sell it to them? Am I entitled to the information since the company no longer exists? How can I prove the company doesn't exist? Is this even something they'd be interested in in the first place?

I dunno. I'm having a crappy month since I can't find a job, and no place will give me a rental lease without one. These crazy ideas pop into my head you know.

[Edited on 7-17-2003 by Revalos]

[Skaster]

Yes. Send it. Aeternity stole enough from GS.

[imported_Kranar]

How about just telling us?

I know I'd personally be interested. Well if you decide to tell Simu for free, and are willing to give me some info, please do so.

I don't know that Simu would buy information on Aeternity, doesn't seem to me like they'd care. But who knows...

If YOU did help out with the project, I don't see anything wrong with releasing the info or passing it off. Neither morally, or legally, unless you signed an NDA.

If you did sign an NDA, then I think it would be morally wrong to release the information, and it may be legally wrong.

[Edited on 7-17-2003 by Kranar]

[Taernath]

Wait until more information comes out on why Aeternity shut down (if it has) before you make a decision. I doubt that Simu would buy ideas, and I'd hate to see you get burned by legal action.

[Revalos]

I did sign an NDA. But my question is: If the game no longer exists does the NDA hold any value?

And exactly what should I do to find out what happened to the game? The only other person I still can contact is as in the dark as I am. And he had a 15% share in the company! You'd think he know something, right?

The real amusing thing is that the e-mail provider they used still exists, but they claim that my username/password is invalid, as they have since that day in May. The people who worked with the company have had my normal Hotmail address, yet I've recieved nothing from them.

I'm just frustrated with my job experiences that piddle out into nothing.

Oh, and I'll give anyone here that wants info to them as well once I can figure out what my decision is about all this. I didn't really think they would actually pay for it. That was the alcohol talking. Yep.

[imported_Kranar]

Well, I for one would be interested, rest assured. I don't want to push you into giving me the info though without figuring out what's going on.

I heard a lot of things about Aeternity, like the engine was physically stolen, and some other problems with staff. Anyways, that sucks that you had to go through this.

[Revalos]

Heh...I also figured that given that GS4 revolves around converting the coding system into something different, that knowledge of the "stolen" GS3/GSL code that might be present would probably not be something that I would get in trouble for releasing to the public from SIMU.

I just looked over most of what I have, and I don't have any of the "hidden roll equations" (like what goes into manoeuver attacks) that I can see. Which would be something VERY interesting if I had it. Most of the info is technical regarding OOP coding in general, or specific to AEternity regarding history, mythos, and such.

I just wish that I'd been pushed to learn more of the coding stuff instead of just being a room and item designer. That would have actually been helpful in this job search I'm doing. Everyone wants a programmer these days it seems, no room for us analysts and data producers.

[imported_Kranar]

Aeternity used GSL escape codes?

I dont think that's illegal to spread since you can easily figure out what the GSL escape codes mean by connecting to GS using another front end.

I don't want technical info. I'm asking this because I'm making an online MUD. I have all the technicals down, all I need are ideas and design info to help make the game cooler.

[Bestatte]

It kinda depends on a few things.

1) A contract based on illegal activities is not a valid contract. You can sign your mother's life away to the devil in exchange for immortality, but since your mother's life isn't yours to give, the contract is invalid. The same goes for stolen code. You are not bound by the NDA to protect code in Aeternity if the code didn't belong to them.

2) Assuming Aephir covered his ass somehow regarding the stolen code issue, his affiliation with his company would determine the rest. Is it a Sole Proprietorship (S Corporation)? A Limited Liability Corporation (LLC)? Etc. etc. If he is the sole owner of the corporation, and the corporation disolves, then your NDA would still be valid, because the contract is with HIM and not with the corporation.

3) Keep in mind that Ian is a lawyer. It probably isn't a good idea to test the waters regarding releasing NDA-protected intellectual property without finding out what's going on straight from him first.
Even if that ends up being never.

[Askip]

Revalos -

I doubt that the email address I have on file for Aephir is more recent than the one you have, but if you post or send me your addy I will send you what I have.

vuwh60a@play.net

[Edited on 7-17-2003 by Askip]

[Revalos]

Actually, one bit of info that I do know is that Ian divested himself of Aephirsden at some point before I was hired. The NDA would have either been to someone else, or to the company.

He still dropped an e-mail or two but they were about hardware/software stuff, not really anything. I can't remember the exact text of the NDA. I'll have to find it around here somewhere.

I'm going to try again to contact the person "I think" was the head of the company, or at least the de-factor head and see what he has to say, but it may take some doing given the fact that the only address I know I have for him is his @aephirsden.com which is non-functional.

I'll start checking into it. Thanks for the help y'all though.

[Askip]

That's too bad, I just checked my lists again and all I had for him was ae-aephir@aephirsden.com

Good luck,
Askip

[Neildo]

His other aephirsden e-mail is:

ian@aephirsden.com

But you may have better luck here:

ian@klimon.com

or his TimeGate Studios ones:

klimian@timegatestudios.com
ian@timegatestudios.com

It's no surprise he all of a sudden seems to have vanished as he's all over the place in the gaming community. Busy, busy, busy and all.

BTW, for those that may have thought Aephirsden was his only project he was dedicated to, he's been working for TimeGate Studios for the past two years (hence his e-mail addresses) and is currently working on his follow-up game for them, Kings of War, which was at E3 a couple months ago.

And then for a side note to the above comment, this is why some things in Gemstone are implemented so slowly. Many of you already know that GMs have lives to live, jobs to work , and the like, but many have other coding jobs to other companies, not just the traditional job that may come to mind. That's what I find funny when coder hobbiest say how a certain implementation only takes such and such time to do. All other time restaints such as QC and the like, they assume GS is the only thing they're working on.

You guys at Aephirsden basically got duped, heh. This is why whenever someone wants me to help them "start up" a game, I don't do it. Only do stuff for solid companies that have already been around otherwise you'll be given the run around a lot. They'll want you to do this and that yet you'll never really have any answers to anything. They'll tell you stuff about the game almost being started up yet will continue to extend the date and never really give you any detailed answers about it.

As for what you can and cannot do, it depends on what info you have. If it's just ideas and other things you were going to implement but not share any code, you can go ahead and do that. You can give it to Simutronics if you like but I'd first become a GameMaster if I were you that way you can get some kinda credit and/or minor benefits for it because otherwise you probably won't get jack from them and they'll just take your neat ideas and tweak them to fit how they want so they basically steal your idea and you get no royalties since it's just your ideas but tweaked.

So yeah, go ahead and give it to Simu if you don't want your ideas to go to waste unless you plan on using them elsewhere for another game or somesuch. Simu tends to take good ideas from past/current players of failed games trying to compete with them. So if you have a good idea, let em make you a GM to implement em. No use in letting them go to waste, but don't be a fool and let it go for free.

That's one thing many of you guys just don't realize, you're being leeched as much as possible especially since you're working for free. While those that work for free tend to do it for the love of the game, they also happen to be clueless and too trustworthy mainly due to the friendship built from the "small community" that they all love. Working for free still doesn't take away the fact that you're being used and abused and if you think that's not the case, you're being too trustworthy. Remember, everything for the higher ups is a business. While they may be your friends, that comes second to running their business. And for your Aephirsden people, I'd keep a close eye on the other games that Ian runs just so your ideas don't wind up in other games that he got for free from you suckers of coders (no offense).

- N

[Edited on 7/29/03 by Neildo]

[Neildo]

>>>>So...remember Aeternity? The game that Aephir left GS3 to start? Well, in May of this year, one day, the website ceased to exist. No warnings, no e-mails. Nothing. To this day, I have no idea what happened. All I can think of is that someone who owned the server equipment died or their house burned down, the server was hacked and formatted, or somehow the server got corrupted and was too expensive to replace.

Still, you'd think SOMEONE would tell those who worked for the company what the hell happened!<<<<


Oh yeah, to respond to your first paragraph, I find your resolutions as to what happened to be somewhat amusing. Out of what you could think of, none of them are "bad" on the higher-ups part.. nothing that is really their fault such as being dead, hacked, etc. Never once did the idea of your free-to-piddly-wage self think that you were being used and then were all of a sudden cut off intentionally?

My guess is that Ian got way too busy and decided to just can the game since not much was happening. That or he's taking all the neat ideas you people gave him for free, or practically for free, and will use them as his own ideas in other games that aren't neccesarily MUDs (his recent games have been graphical).

What reason is there to contact you all after he pulls the plug? Sure, it would be the NICE thing to do but does he really HAVE to do it? He's a lawyer so he knows what he can and cannot do. You may think you're all friends for working with each other, but when push comes to shove, it's all about business and he could care less about you all unless you're making him rich. You know those bosses that care only about money and the like? When they have to downsize, they don't lose any sleep about letting people go.

As for the person who also owns 15% of the stock in the company, how much money is that? It could be a word game where that 15% of the companies stock sounds like a lot, but it can be practically nothing so the guy doesn't mind losing it.. if he lost it at all. Hell, he could be in cahoots in this whole scheme. Yeah, Aephir made some cool critters and areas in Gemstone and people love him for that, but that doesn't mean he's a nice guy. Most people are idiots and tend to kiss ass and/or love someone when it benefits them. They'd justify what a drug lord does if that drug lord gave them a million bucks, heh. But yeah, Aephir's a shady guy. Nobody questions why he got fired from Simutronics.

Anyhow, yeah, just wanted to chime in on your thoughts of what could have happened with Aeternity. I just found it amusing, and predictable, that you wouldn't think of anything bad on the higher ups part of why everything just disappeared. But hey, I don't know either and I love conspiracy theories as much as the next person. ;)

- N

[imported_Kranar]

Neildo, you really are involved in conspiracy theories and the like.

A little too involved if you ask me.

[Neildo]

Hehe.

I'm just makin little reference about certain things that I know have happened before. So if something like that happened with Aeternity where the people got similarly screwed, it's not even far-fetched. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst is all I'm sayin.

- N

[Serein]

Hey there Revelos, I remember you!
Glad to see you around. I was on LOA or maybe even more distant by the time you were hired in as staff, but I remember you as a player very well. I had fun with you.
As far as the legality of turning over all the info you have to another game or company, well I would advise against it. We did sign NDAs and the company actually does still exist. I don't know what is going on with the website, but that is no indication of the status of the company. The NDAs released all our work and such to the AephirsDen, so treating it as if you own it is not actually a viable option legally. Morally it is even more sketchy. Sure, you might feel okay taking and using the specific items or rooms you painted perhaps, but the other stuff created by other staff members would be difficult to justify using without their permission.
Personally, I'd be a little bugged to see (more of) my ideas implemented in another game if I was hoping to use them myself somewhere. I know Hallah is working on a game and was hoping to use some of her ideas and designs over there, once the NDA period was over. I spoke with Iam the other day and he had some interesting things to say. If you are interested, I would be happy to fill you in on what actually did happen, at least as much as I know now. To answer a couple points, since I can, AE was not using GSL, Ian didn't release ALL interest, but he did turn over production to some others and it didn't work out but he does want to see it come back to life in the future. I have more information which is not appropriate for public posting, but feel free to contact me if you still want to know more.

I'm thinking what I have to share will make you happy.

~Serein of the Sea

[Warriorbird]

I'd release it.

[Revalos]

Serein,

I'm glad to hear from you. I've really gotten over the whole thing now that I am gainfully employed, it was just a whim that I wanted to get back at yet another company who folded up and disappeared leaving me with zilch. I wasn't really thinking of all the other people that would be affected by such a move that put work into AE.

I'd really appreciate understanding what went on/is going on with the company. At this point, I'm going to have to resign anyway because my new job is going to be waaay more work than I could possibly do.

I was upset that we, as staff, were not contacted about what happened within a few weeks. And the fact that I spoke to GM Cabot and he was in the dark some time in June left me even more upset.

Please e-mail me so I can at least get a handle on what is going on. Its g_ographer@ho tmail.com (take out the space)