2009 Goals - Archery

[DaCapn]

Archery/Thrown weapons update Expected late Spring 2009

I've heard people say that archery is due for a nerf. Is this really the case or is it just due for a nerf in the sense that a lot of other stuff should really be due to be brought up to par with archery? It seems to me like the mechanics of archery are somewhat realistic and maybe it's just the fact that sniping is cheap/unfair/whatever in basically every game.

I'm a little unseasoned with archery (and am only familiar from the perspective of a rogue) so I'm just hoping for a little clarity with regards to these slated updates:
What do you guys think will be the focus of these revisions?
What needs to be revised (not to be confused with the previous question)?
What is implied (if anything) by the grouping of the two?

[Fallen]

If there was no such thing as fixskill, I would say archery would be balanced just fine.

[thefarmer]

Encumbrance

[The Ponzzz]

When people say archery is going to get nerfed, it is because archey has been too good for too long. Because thrown is a form of ranged combat, my guess is ranged DS is going to become more in line with each other, and simply holding a bow in your left hand will no longer be INSTANT DS.

My next guess is AS. Having a 10x weapon at all times was not something I think that was intended. I have no clue how this will change, but I'd say a good start would be that bows to give different benefits instead of straight AS addition to arrows.

Lastly, already covered, encumbrance.

[Stretch]

If there was no such thing as fixskill, I would say archery would be balanced just fine.

^

Benefits:

- 3 second aimed eye shots with a composite once you hit 40 STR bonus
- High DS if you're a rogue archer due to the Ranged bonus to Dodge
- Encumberance is a non-issue w.r.t. RT
- DS is less of a factor

Down sides:

- Full plate = fail
- Undead = fail
- Mfire = epic fail

Neutral:

- Easy access to high enchant is usually offset by higher creature DS
- No crit bonus for hiding

Class specific, but there is no other build that is as efficient as ranged for a rogue. I can't emphasize how much faster it is than cookie cutter sword / board. At best, you're looking at 6 seconds to kill something with a dagger (2 hide with smastery, 4 ambush), or 2x the time it takes to fire an aimed eye shot. Also don't have to worry about parrying, just evade / block.

[Kitsun]

I would love to see crossbow mechanics become less cumbersome. Being able to hold a bolt + fire would auto-cock and fire by combining the RTs. It is a monstrous pain in the ass how they are currently implemented. Ideally, I'd like to see them be usable like how my e-xbow used to work.

[Gan]

I would like to see them ease up crossbow usage.

I have to agree with Stretch on his opinions of archery and rogues. Thats why my rogue will never go back to sword/board.

[Deathravin]

Things I'd like to see changed:

1) Crossbows don't get used enough - figure out some way to make them better to use. Every ranged user should have a serious question: "crossbow or bow?". Maybe an ability to muti-cock it. I know it's not really IC, but... If I could get 20 shots out of a crossbow then re-cock it 20 times when I'm resting, I'd do that...

2) Arrowhead material bonus should add to arrow shaft material bonus.

3) Arrowheads, woods, fletchings, etc need to take a much more active role. I think there is too much potential there to not implement something very cool.
a) Fletchings for flares (already in place, blue griffin etc)
b) Arrowheads should increase the AvD or DF versus lower armors, and different metals and woods could be used for different applications.
c) Woods should add to the sighting of the arrow. Again different woods for different applications. Certain woods would fly differently or even flex to find openings in armor more easily.
While I don't agree with breakage, I do think arrows should be able to break. I don't like the fact they're so easy to lose, but maybe reduce or eliminate the loss ratio, and implement a breakage situation instead.

As for the rest, eh... I just hope they don't nerf me too bad. I don't really see that it's all that over powered. Archery is well balanced IMO.

[droit]

See, those are all ideas to make archery more powerful. Let me be the first to say, Fuck That. At least drop ranged DS if you're going to implement any of it. Belnia shouldn't have a higher DS with a bow than I have with a 9x shield. I mean, that's supposed to be the main benefit of going OHE/Shield--I give up the stopping power of a two-handed weapon style in exchange for a higher defense. That ranged users get the best of both worlds is wrong. Ranged DS should either be on par with THW or TWC defense, or shield users should get a bump.

[Stunseed]

See, those are all ideas to make archery more powerful. Let me be the first to say, Fuck That. At least drop ranged DS if you're going to implement any of it. Belnia shouldn't have a higher DS with a bow than I have with a 9x shield. I mean, that's supposed to be the main benefit of going OHE/Shield--I give up the stopping power of a two-handed weapon style in exchange for a higher defense. That ranged users get the best of both worlds is wrong. Ranged DS should either be on par with THW or TWC defense, or shield users should get a bump.

ding ding ding.

[The Ponzzz]

That's what I was saying in my post. Ranged DS needs to get hit HARD. Simulated DS is the only way to go without a combat engagement system.

[Ignot]

Ranged sucks in GS because there really is nothing to simulate distance. The DR combat system makes alot more sense to me when it comes to ranged.

[The Ponzzz]

Yeah, a flat DS bonus just because you have a bow in your left hand has never made sense, and has always felt like a bandaid. "Crap, well this is what we'll do for now, until we fix it..." But a way to make simulated distance between shots should be the way both thrown and ranged are handled, with ranged combat having a higher DS for a longer time.

[Deathravin]

See, those are all ideas to make archery more powerful. Let me be the first to say, Fuck That. At least drop ranged DS if you're going to implement any of it. Belnia shouldn't have a higher DS with a bow than I have with a 9x shield. I mean, that's supposed to be the main benefit of going OHE/Shield--I give up the stopping power of a two-handed weapon style in exchange for a higher defense. That ranged users get the best of both worlds is wrong. Ranged DS should either be on par with THW or TWC defense, or shield users should get a bump.

You get to block and parry with your shield. I don't with my bow. You don't think that's a decent trade-off?

Also, you with your 9x shield, and me with my 4x bow. I've NEVER had a higher DS than any other build of my level except an unspelled sorcerer.

[thefarmer]

You get to block and parry with your shield. I don't with my bow. You don't think that's a decent trade-off?

No.

[The Ponzzz]

With Dhask, My DS went through the roof with 3x dodge, compared to 1x shield and 2x dodge with a 10x shield. If I add in a bow with 3x dodge, I become invincible.

[droit]

What farmer said.

[DaCapn]

^

Benefits:

- 3 second aimed eye shots with a composite once you hit 40 STR bonus
- High DS if you're a rogue archer due to the Ranged bonus to Dodge
- Encumberance is a non-issue w.r.t. RT
- DS is less of a factor

Down sides:

- Full plate = fail
- Undead = fail
- Mfire = epic fail

Neutral:

- Easy access to high enchant is usually offset by higher creature DS
- No crit bonus for hiding

Class specific, but there is no other build that is as efficient as ranged for a rogue. I can't emphasize how much faster it is than cookie cutter sword / board. At best, you're looking at 6 seconds to kill something with a dagger (2 hide with smastery, 4 ambush), or 2x the time it takes to fire an aimed eye shot. Also don't have to worry about parrying, just evade / block.

Giantmen are the only ones who have access to 40 STR bonus without enhancives. There are only 3 other races which are capable of achieving this with enhancives, anyway. I don't think the RT is a factor for archery until you get to encumbrance. That's probably a good idea, but at that point, why aren't you also examining casting RT?

My sword and board DS seemed to be better than my ranged DS. Tsoran's sheet predicts a loss of about 100 in defensive and 40 in offensive before enchantments are taken into account.

Also, the "double dagger time" comparison seems a little thin. You're assuming that the character has a 40 STR bonus and that they were already hidden in the case of the archer, and you assumed that they weren't with the dagger wielder.

EDIT: Don't know how I forgot to account for surge and 509. Either way, there's still some valid points in there. Also, you're using ambush RT for dagger and an umaimed composite shot (which would be 4 seconds aimed in the case you mentioned, right?) Plus, RT of an attack isn't everything when it comes to encumbrance. It's what you see most clearly when you're playing but just because you're an archer doesn't mean you're without encumbrance penalties.


I would like to see them ease up crossbow usage.

I have to agree with Stretch on his opinions of archery and rogues. Thats why my rogue will never go back to sword/board.

Both of these posts give a pretty distinct whiff of "because melee combat is worse;" especially with regards to rogues. That's why I switched from sword/board with that rogue. It was more due to my previous training being mostly incapable rather than the other being amazing.


Belnia shouldn't have a higher DS with a bow than I have with a 9x shield.

Be careful about these comparisons. Pretty apples-to-oranges at this point.

[Deathravin]

Be careful about these comparisons. Pretty apples-to-oranges at this point.

I do agree that maybe things are a bit unrealistic. But as it is, I really don't think it would need more than minor changes to make it very equal.

Every positive for every build has negatives. I don't see the problem, to be honest. Although when I first realized I could wear MBP with virtually no downside, I felt that was a touch broken LOL.

I was hunting with my ranged rogue and a twc dagger ambushing rogue hunted with me. He critted a HELL of a lot more often than I did.

His DS was WAY higher than mine, he could parry.

[DaCapn]

I think The Ponzzz is right about the easy enchantment-based gains to AS, but that's relatively minor. They probably didn't intend for it to be that way and it probably shouldn't be. So there are some things where a cutback is warranted.

Based entirely off of combat versatility, I'm not going back to handaxe/buckler/MBP from bow/ewave/brig. The numbers have little to do with it as far as I'm concerned. They can lower archer's DSes, lower their ASes, and add encumbrance. The innate weaknesses of the first plan over the second haven't changed.

[Xaerve]

Nerfing shit in a dieing game is bad business.

Boost shields is the answer.

[Gan]

Things I'd like to see changed:

1) Crossbows don't get used enough - figure out some way to make them better to use. Every ranged user should have a serious question: "crossbow or bow?". Maybe an ability to muti-cock it. I know it's not really IC, but... If I could get 20 shots out of a crossbow then re-cock it 20 times when I'm resting, I'd do that...

2) Arrowhead material bonus should add to arrow shaft material bonus.

3) Arrowheads, woods, fletchings, etc need to take a much more active role. I think there is too much potential there to not implement something very cool.
a) Fletchings for flares (already in place, blue griffin etc)
b) Arrowheads should increase the AvD or DF versus lower armors, and different metals and woods could be used for different applications.
c) Woods should add to the sighting of the arrow. Again different woods for different applications. Certain woods would fly differently or even flex to find openings in armor more easily.
While I don't agree with breakage, I do think arrows should be able to break. I don't like the fact they're so easy to lose, but maybe reduce or eliminate the loss ratio, and implement a breakage situation instead.

As for the rest, eh... I just hope they don't nerf me too bad. I don't really see that it's all that over powered. Archery is well balanced IMO.

/Agreed

[Stretch]

I don't think the RT is a factor for archery until you get to encumbrance. That's probably a good idea, but at that point, why aren't you also examining casting RT?

My sword and board DS seemed to be better than my ranged DS.

Also, the "double dagger time" comparison seems a little thin. You're assuming that the character has a 40 STR bonus and that they were already hidden in the case of the archer, and you assumed that they weren't with the dagger wielder.



Surge enhances STR by +16 at 5 ranks, which pretty much opens this up to every race except the weaker ones (Elves, Aelotoi, Halflings, Gnomes). Casting RT is irrelevant, since probably 80% of all archers are Rangers / Rogues.

Ranged DS > sword / board if you have the pts to 2x+ in Dodge.

My point comparing daggers is that hiding is a waste of time with ranged, once you reach a certain level, which is related to Fallen's post. It's totally unnecessary once you can hit certain end roll thresholds with each armor class, since you can just fire in the open.

Again, this is all focused on the latter part of the game. If there was no such thing as reallocation I'd say ranged is okay, but as it is now, there is no build that's better after say level 65 for certain professions.

[Gan]

Surge enhances STR by +16 at 5 ranks, which pretty much opens this up to every race except the weaker ones (Elves, Aelotoi, Halflings, Gnomes). Casting RT is irrelevant, since probably 80% of all archers are Rangers / Rogues.

Ranged DS > sword / board if you have the pts to 2x+ in Dodge.

My point comparing daggers is that hiding is a waste of time with ranged, once you reach a certain level, which is related to Fallen's post. It's totally unnecessary once you can hit certain end roll thresholds with each armor class, since you can just fire in the open.

Again, this is all focused on the latter part of the game. If there was no such thing as reallocation I'd say ranged is okay, but as it is now, there is no build that's better after say level 65 for certain professions.

The thing to remember is that DS != TD. And that is a huge reason why hiding IS relevant to archery, especially in high end areas.

If you want to walk around and shoot arrows in the open then be a ranger, that way you have the benefit of cheaper spells to learn and use (ie MnS for TD).

[Stretch]

The thing to remember is that DS != TD. And that is a huge reason why hiding IS relevant to archery, especially in high end areas.

If you want to walk around and shoot arrows in the open then be a ranger, that way you have the benefit of cheaper spells to learn and use (ie MnS for TD).

Even before I went past 404, I had way fewer problems hunting from the open with ranged than I did sword/board hiding.

Post-cap, you're exposed in the open for some time with all the swarms in OTF, or you're dealing with radicals / sirens which don't exactly have overly destructive TD spells.

I guess it's all a matter of opinion though. There are diehards like Gibreficul who swear off ranged FO EVAH, but most people who make the change don't change back.

[Fallen]

Most people who don't bother with ranged are like sorcerers who don't implosion hunt. There isn't much of a challenge in it at cap.

[DaCapn]

Surge enhances STR by +16 at 5 ranks, which pretty much opens this up to every race except the weaker ones (Elves, Aelotoi, Halflings, Gnomes). Casting RT is irrelevant, since probably 80% of all archers are Rangers / Rogues.
Yeah, I already self-castigated about surge in my edit. I only brought up casting RT just because it's not affected by encumbrance either. I'm just trying to bring up the point that I'm not sure whether people think that it would be "correct" for ranged combat to be affected by encumbrance or if it's more-or-less just the fact that melee combat is and ranged isn't and people don't like that comparatively.

Ranged DS > sword / board if you have the pts to 2x+ in Dodge.
I saw otherwise here. If you're saying that your DS goes up after now freeing up the shield use points allowing you to 2x in dodge, then you're only saying that dodge is better than shield use. I went from 2x dodge, 1x shield, sword and buckler to 2x dodge and a bow and I saw a drop in DS.

My point comparing daggers is that hiding is a waste of time with ranged, once you reach a certain level, which is related to Fallen's post. It's totally unnecessary once you can hit certain end roll thresholds with each armor class, since you can just fire in the open.
Okay, that makes more sense. Point well taken.

Again, this is all focused on the latter part of the game. If there was no such thing as reallocation I'd say ranged is okay, but as it is now, there is no build that's better after say level 65 for certain professions.
That sort of thing always makes me nervous. The idea is a change to limit high level characters, they get limited but low-level characters get a much harder shafting which wasn't the objective (nor the location of imbalance). I still feel like melee just needs to be brought up rather than ranged being brought down.

[thefarmer]

Yeah, I already self-castigated about surge in my edit. I only brought up casting RT just because it's not affected by encumbrance either. I'm just trying to bring up the point that I'm not sure whether people think that it would be "correct" for ranged combat to be affected by encumbrance or if it's more-or-less just the fact that melee combat is and ranged isn't and people don't like that comparatively.


Ranged combat is affected by encumbrance. Try a hurling character. Then try an archer. Notice the huge difference.


That sort of thing always makes me nervous. The idea is a change to limit high level characters..

You know for a fact that this is the case?

[DaCapn]

Ranged combat is affected by encumbrance. Try a hurling character. Then try an archer. Notice the huge difference.
I should have said archery instead of ranged. Probably slipped up due to the fact that the skill is called "ranged weapons."

You know for a fact that this is the case?
Sorry if I was unclear, all I was saying is that sort of thing in general makes me uneasy. I haven't the slightest clue whether or not the projected ranged combat changes will be anything like that.

[thefarmer]

I should have said archery instead of ranged. Probably slipped up due to the fact that the skill is called "ranged weapons."

That's kind of my point.


Ranged weapons SHOULD have encumbrance play a factor. Archery really doesn't. Thrown *really* does.



Sorry if I was unclear, all I was saying is that sort of thing in general makes me uneasy. I haven't the slightest clue whether or not the projected ranged combat changes will be anything like that.

Ah. Gotcha.

[CaptContagious]

maybe the change is bringing thrown UP to or ranged down to Throwns equivlent? I know Thrown weapons have been up for review for a while now. I dont see much wrong with ranged but thrown has great potential and very fun.

[Stabbyrogue]

I just hope that everyone wanting archery nerfed takes the time to watch someone fire an arrow at anything in plate, made of stone, or undead.

[Stunseed]

Tactics. When you can't hunt effectively, find another place to hunt. Archery is no exception.

[Stabbyrogue]

I agree with you about tactics. What I'm saying is that archery, like anything else, has ups and downs. It just seems like everyone wants it nerfed without considering the downsides. I don't think these downsides should be eliminated, everyone shouldn't be able to do everything, but don't nerf MY hunting style because my character does some things better than yours.

While we're on the subject, I want wizard's cone of lightning nerfed because it can clear a room faster than anyone else, a sorcerer's evil eye nerfed because they don't even have to be in a room to kill things, bards nerfed because they get free 7x weapons and armor, empaths nerfed because they shouldn't be able to heal AND hunt, and I'd like monks nerfed before they come out because they use unarmed combat better than I can.

[Gan]

I avoid undead like the plague. I still go for full plate when I see an opening

[Mala04]

Yeah, I already self-castigated about surge in my edit. I only brought up casting RT just because it's not affected by encumbrance either. I'm just trying to bring up the point that I'm not sure whether people think that it would be "correct" for ranged combat to be affected by encumbrance or if it's more-or-less just the fact that melee combat is and ranged isn't and people don't like that comparatively.

I do think that encumbrance would have more effect on you pulling back your bow string or cocking your crossbow. Reason being that you are actually having to exert a force to do these things, which the more your weighed down, the more tiring it will be. Where as when casting a spell you are doing nothing more than flopping around your weightless hand.

[Durgrimst]

I do think that encumbrance would have more effect on you pulling back your bow string or cocking your crossbow. Reason being that you are actually having to exert a force to do these things, which the more your weighed down, the more tiring it will be. Where as when casting a spell you are doing nothing more than flopping around your weightless hand.

And pures are already suckers for maneuvers, so adding encumbrance only makes the issue worse if you are hunting in an area with BCS critters.

[DaCapn]

I do think that encumbrance would have more effect on you pulling back your bow string or cocking your crossbow. Reason being that you are actually having to exert a force to do these things, which the more your weighed down, the more tiring it will be. Where as when casting a spell you are doing nothing more than flopping around your weightless hand.

You're drawing comparisons between a real life action (pulling a bowstring) and some made up action (casting a spell) in a magical world which you didn't invent. Any presumptions about the physical requirements of spell preparation are thin at best.

You could equally imagine the concept that casting spells is just as physically exhausting where you're required to contain magical energy with your physical strength. Maybe your ball of major fire explodes in your hands if you don't contain it, maybe it won't hit your target unless you hurl it at 100 mph.

Either way, the tidbit has no real value if the one making the statement didn't invent the magical setting.

[Mala04]

Uhm .. maybe you didn't realize this, but you actually see the action of (pulling a bowstring/cocking your crossbow) in the game ... So how am I making a comparison between real life and some made up action?

And there your logic goes both ways, did you invent this magical setting? Who are you to say casting spells takes more than just waggling your finger?

Let's not forget that fact that strength is the main factor in your encumbrance. Which plays no part at all in your ability to manipulate magic. The closest thing to it is the spell hinderance recieved from wearing heavier armors. Which logically this hinderance comes from your movements being restricted. When's the last time you casted a spell holding your container in your hand? (there by making your arms heavier is what I'm going for with that ... )

[DaCapn]

Uhm .. maybe you didn't realize this, but you actually see the action of (pulling a bowstring/cocking your crossbow) in the game ... So how am I making a comparison between real life and some made up action?

Re-read my post paying attention while you do so. Maybe read your post which I quoted too. You will need both here.


And there your logic goes both ways, did you invent this magical setting? Who are you to say casting spells takes more than just waggling your finger?

That was my point. I wasn't arguing about the physical requirements of a magical gesture. This goes back to the whole "paying attention" thing.


Let's not forget that fact that strength is the main factor in your encumbrance. Which plays no part at all in your ability to manipulate magic. The closest thing to it is the spell hinderance recieved from wearing heavier armors. Which logically this hinderance comes from your movements being restricted. When's the last time you casted a spell holding your container in your hand? (there by making your arms heavier is what I'm going for with that ... )

I wasn't making any statements about the way things are or should be in this regard. I'm not sure that I have a distinct opinion as to how I would like encumbrance to affect magic and ranged combat. Some of them I could see either way and haven't really decided which I think is the most balanced mechanics-wise.

[Mala04]

You win! The game is completely made up and there is absolutely no logic to the mechanics ...

[thefarmer]

Some of them I could see either way and haven't really decided which I think is the most balanced mechanics-wise.

Either make archery closer to thrown for encumbrance or make thrown closer to ranged. As it is now, it's unbalanced.