Mutant Build

[Sharnath]

I am currently playing an archer/picker and have grown tired of it. I am looking for a mutant build strictly for hunting. Maybe two weapon combat or two handed or something. He is currently level 30 and a CoL master and would like for him to remain in CoL. Anyone have any fun suggestions?

Sharnath

[Kitsun]

I wouldn't really consider any weapon style on a rogue to be mutant training. (Except maybe polearms) Rogues can do it all with style.

[Stretch]

Nodyre found one.

Runestaff rogue.

[Moist Happenings]

I had a two weapon combat rogue that dual wielded short swords. He could pick, but the extra training points you spend on two weapon are gonna gimp it a little compared to your standard sword and board though since you'll want to 2x hiding and ambush still.

Very very fun though. And if you can find 'em, pick up some of those veniom-hilted black rolaren long knives and dual wield those. I always wanted a rogue that wielded daggers, but mechanically daggers are junksauce. Those long knives are short sword based, 4x, and acid flaring. Quickstrike and shadowstrike made it a little out of the norm, and it was fun. Didn't always have to hunt with hide/ambush, but it was easiest of course.

Something about getting 5 ranks of multi opponent and swinging 4 times in I think 5 seconds (might have been 6, but I think it was 5) with two weapons that flared pretty often was really satisfying.

If you're looking for a fun two weapon combat deal, I suggest you try that out.

[Sean of the Thread]

the thread title made me want to play Fallout

[DaCapn]

I have a TWC rogue at about that level. Nothing really mutant about it. Using handaxe/shortsword is pretty nice. The short sword is light enough so the RT is equivalent to a single handaxe. Though I know some people use double handaxes. What race are we talking? That can really make or break certain builds based on roundtime reduction.

The only thing is how useless mstrike is against things in heavier armors. It has gotten me into more jams than it has gotten me out of. Though against light-armored foes, it does well. I plan to take MOC to 35 and then probably leave it at that. 55 would be the post-cap goal but then again, I level this character like twice per year. Also, there's not really enough points to squeeze out ewave eventually even if you wanted to.


(at level 31), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 166 66
Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Combat Maneuvers...................| 161 61
Edged Weapons......................| 166 66
Ambush.............................| 166 66
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 122 31
Physical Fitness...................| 126 33
Dodging............................| 166 66
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Stalking and Hiding................| 166 66
Perception.........................| 166 66
Climbing...........................| 120 30

Maybe an open-swinging, ewaving, MOC, TWC build would be cool though. You'd probably be able to go 2x in OHE, TWC, Dodge, 1x CM, PF, CM, MOC and get ewave with 60+ mana at level 30. It would be a bit more mutant-like.

Then again there's Mario's 2x OHE, 2x Thrown weapons handaxe hurler. I have no idea what the story with hurling is, though.

[Lucos]

I always wanted a rogue that wielded daggers, but mechanically daggers are junksauce.

Heh. I have absolutely no problems using a dagger as my primary weapon. Daggers rock.

[Moist Happenings]

Heh. I have absolutely no problems using a dagger as my primary weapon. Daggers rock.

They're cool for hide/ambush once you get higher in level, but I always liked the idea of swinging from the open for fun. Daggers just don't cut it there. Flaring shortswords were almost as fast and hit a ton harder.

[m444w]

I prefer rapiers, best of both worlds.

[Gan]

I am currently playing an archer/picker and have grown tired of it. I am looking for a mutant build strictly for hunting. Maybe two weapon combat or two handed or something. He is currently level 30 and a CoL master and would like for him to remain in CoL. Anyone have any fun suggestions?

Sharnath

It would be cheaper for you to train up/buy a warrior, since this sounds like what you really want. That way you're not stuck with a fucked up rogue until May when the next fixskills is released.

[Mtenda]

Here is the training of one of my rogues. I wouldn't really call it mutant but it's different.

(at level 72), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 245 145
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 230 130
Blunt Weapons......................| 245 145
Brawling...........................| 245 145
Ambush.............................| 230 130
Physical Fitness...................| 170 70
Dodging............................| 245 145
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Stalking and Hiding................| 230 130
Perception.........................| 90 20
Climbing...........................| 90 20

Nothing real complicated here. It's pretty much just dual mace in your face or dual sai in your eye.

[thefarmer]

TWC+thrown+war hammers

[Stretch]

Here is the training of one of my rogues. I wouldn't really call it mutant but it's different.

(at level 72), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 245 145
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 230 130
Blunt Weapons......................| 245 145
Brawling...........................| 245 145
Ambush.............................| 230 130
Physical Fitness...................| 170 70
Dodging............................| 245 145
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Stalking and Hiding................| 230 130
Perception.........................| 90 20
Climbing...........................| 90 20

Nothing real complicated here. It's pretty much just dual mace in your face or dual sai in your eye.

I don't think I've ever seen someone use TWC / Blunt / Brawl.

That's a really strange combo. Why not go Edged / Brawl / TWC and pwn with two katars?

[Mtenda]

I don't think I've ever seen someone use TWC / Blunt / Brawl.

That's a really strange combo. Why not go Edged / Brawl / TWC and pwn with two katars?

Because dual maces pwn harder than any other weapon combo when TWC ambushing from hiding. I originally trained this character in brawling for a possible monk conversion or Voln-Fu option and just decided that while I was carrying it I would play around with brawling weapons on weak armors.

[DaCapn]

What's so great about the brawling option? If you're trained for dual maces why would you downgrade to sais at any point in time? With those extra TPs you could probably pick up 35 ranks of MOC in addition to getting some combination of hide/CM/ambush/perception up to full 2x. How is your aim with such low perception?

Aren't handaxes better than maces also (2x OHE is 3 PTP per level cheaper than 2x blunts)?

[Mtenda]

What's so great about the brawling option? If you're trained for dual maces why would you downgrade to sais at any point in time? With those extra TPs you could probably pick up 35 ranks of MOC in addition to getting some combination of hide/CM/ambush/perception up to full 2x. How is your aim with such low perception?

Aren't handaxes better than maces also (2x OHE is 3 PTP per level cheaper than 2x blunts)?

I'm carrying the brawling to leave the monk conversion option open. The sais are for when I'm bored. I suppose you could use them for extra speed but maces are plenty fast and since I pretty much keep haste active all the time I don't really need speed. If I weren't training in brawling the points probably would be spent on MOC.

Perception provides absolutely no benefit to ambushing.

Handaxes are better from a TP perspective only. The return from those few extra TP's spent on blunts is well worth it. Maces only crush and have AVD's and DF's comparable to any of the best one handed weapons (falchions, handaxes, morning stars, war hammers). Add that to the fact that you can ambush two in 6 seconds.

[DaCapn]

Handaxes have a better DF and AvD spread than maces and you can pull off a dual-handaxe ambush in 6 seconds (at least with a 70 AGIDEX bonus it is). I see you on the crushing-only standpoint, but slash/crush is still decent.

DF


Weapon AG Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
Handaxe DF .420 .300 .270 .240 .210
Mace DF .400 .300 .225 .250 .175

AvD


Weapon AsG 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Handaxe AvD 30 32 31 30 29 38 36 34 32 41 37 33 29 41 35 29 23
Mace AvD 31 32 31 30 29 35 33 31 29 42 38 34 30 36 30 24 18


Perception has no influence at all? I feel like I'm going crazy here. I guess I'm set to migrate the hell out of those, then.

[Mtenda]

Handaxes have a better DF and AvD spread than maces and you can pull off a dual-handaxe ambush in 6 seconds (at least with a 70 AGIDEX bonus it is). I see you on the crushing-only standpoint, but slash/crush is still decent.

DF


Weapon AG Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
Handaxe DF .420 .300 .270 .240 .210
Mace DF .400 .300 .225 .250 .175

AvD


Weapon AsG 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Handaxe AvD 30 32 31 30 29 38 36 34 32 41 37 33 29 41 35 29 23
Mace AvD 31 32 31 30 29 35 33 31 29 42 38 34 30 36 30 24 18


Perception has no influence at all? I feel like I'm going crazy here. I guess I'm set to migrate the hell out of those, then.

My goal as an ambusher is to have the highest percentage of one *attack* kills possible. I don't have a large sample size of hard data to show you. But I have tried everything with TWC for long periods with all of the desirable weapon bases. Maces are the most efficient. Whether or not you wanna spend 3 more PTPs is the question. It's worth it to me. Without AGIDEX enhancives...handaxes are dual ambushed in 8 seconds right?

[Izzy]

Without AGIDEX enhancives...handaxes are dual ambushed in 8 seconds right?

8 seconds base. But anyone swinging weapons is going to have at least some agi/dex RT reduction. If they don't, they wtfail.

[DaCapn]

Without AGIDEX enhancives...handaxes are dual ambushed in 8 seconds right?

I think it's 9 base ambush requiring a 38 AGIDEX bonus to get down to the minimum of 6. It looks like maces are base 7, minimum 6, though (which means only 8 AGIDEX bonus is required). That's a spread worth thinking about if you're playing a less dexterous race.

EDIT: nevermind, I think Mtenda and Izzy are right.

[Izzy]

I think it's 9 base ambush requiring a 38 AGIDEX bonus to get down to the minimum of 6. It looks like maces are base 7, minimum 6, though (which means only 8 AGIDEX bonus is required). That's a spread worth thinking about if you're playing a less dexterous race.

EDIT: nevermind, I think Mtenda and Izzy are right.

Yeah, we're right!

TWC rt is (right hand base rt) + (left hand base rt /2, rounded up). Thus, two base 4 weapons = 4 + 2 = 6. Two base 5 weapons = 5 + 3 = 8. So to ambush with the maces you need the 8 agi/dex bonus for 1 second reduction to base 5 for a 6 second ambush. The handaxes would need..I think it's 38 agi/dex for a 3 second reduction -> 6 second ambush. Pretty easy to get for most races, and it is attainable by all.

[Mtenda]

8 seconds base. But anyone swinging weapons is going to have at least some agi/dex RT reduction. If they don't, they wtfail.

It'd be a pain in the ass to have to maintain enough AGIDEX enhancives to take off two seconds. But speed isn't even the first reason why the mace is better for ambushing/hiding. If I were trying to kill things with damage, and could only choose between a handaxe and a mace, I'd pick the handaxe. But it's really all about how many training points you are willing to invest. You get what you pay for I guess.

[Sharnath]

Thanks for all of the information. Now I need to decide between the two crit weighted waraxes that I have or finding a nice set of maces. This was the type of build I was looking for. Thanks again for all of the good information.

Sharnath
Weed Mage

[Soulpieced]

My warrior's latest build was TWC with blunts, and he was using one of the 5x somewhat weighted golvern morning stars and a 5x decent crit weighted mace. 5 second RT for the base two swings = disgusting. Too bad warriors are boring.

[Sharnath]

The only reason I'm not using a warrior for this build is because I want to use this rogue for picking in the later levels. Between the bard and ranger I have a metric crap ton amount of boxes and I hate using the town locksmith. I really want to leave the boxes behind but I can't make myself do it. I still think one day I'm actually going to find something in a box.

Sharnath
Weed Mage

[CaptContagious]

As for the handaxes vs maces build. the crits from ambush are based on DF and weapon size. Maces would be considers a smaller weapon would it not hit harder due to the crit factor?

[Mtenda]

As for the handaxes vs maces build. the crits from ambush are based on DF and weapon size. Maces would be considers a smaller weapon would it not hit harder due to the crit factor?

I'm pretty sure weapon size only affects the accuracy of an ambush. Though I am not sure how weapon size is determined. If it is determined by speed then the mace wins over the handaxe. If not then I would assume they are about the same size. If you know, please chime in. But the most important reason why maces are superior for hiding and ambushing is damage type. It's the same reason why people choose mattocks and mauls over other two handed weapons. It only crushes. I don't know if there is a crit table out there any more but slash comes in a distant second from what I remember. Handaxes slash half of the time. If you are ambushing from hiding and hit something in the head with a mace for 90 points of damage it will always die whereas with the handaxe it will always die only when you do crushing damage. When it slashes there is something like a 10 percent failure rate. Like I said before....My goal as an ambusher is to have the highest percentage of one *attack* kills possible. It's not really a matter of opinion on which one is more effective in the long run. The AVDs and DFs are not a big enough difference to make the handaxe more efficient.

[CaptContagious]

Ambush (saved post)
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Category: 4
Topic: 9
Message number: 406
Author: GAMEMASTER.2 [Cyper]
Date: Fri Nov 10, 1995 at 02:37 EST
Subject: (Unknown)

One change, one addition:

Change: The way the Damage Severity Weighting is calculated has been changed. Previous system ranged from 0 to DW (Damage Weighting) dependent on the weapon's DF. Now it ranges from half DW to DW dependant on the weapon's DF. This will raise the adder for attacks from hiding or while invisible (assuming ambush training) and for damage weighted weapons.

Addition: AMBUSH verb that permit aimed attacks.
Adds 3 seconds to Round Time Calculations, prior to Truncation. Note, since RT's are truncated at 5 seconds on the low end for attack and ambush, aiming at a target may not always add 3 seconds to the Round Time the AMBUSH user sees.
Aim at any body part that can be injured, eyes, legs, hands, et cetera. Different areas have different difficulty modifiers when aimed at.
Each weapon type has an aiming modifier associated with it. The highest bonus is for daggers, the greatest penalty is for the lance.
Some size restrictions play a role, no halflings aiming shots at a golem's neck unless the golem is not standing.
Works exactly like ATTACK if no area on the target is specified for an aimed attack. This includes final Round Time evaluation.
Skill for melee aiming is one quarter ambush plus one quarter combat maneuvers.
Skill for aimed attack from hiding or invisiblity is half ambush skill.
Failed skill checks may result in no attack or an attack to a random area on the target. The 3 seconds is still added in the latter case and a 5 second Round Time is accessed for failed checks that result in no attack.
Currently Parry does not play a role in th[e] ability to target an area.
Damage weighted weapons are harder to aim with than non-damage weighted varities of the same weapon type.
Cyper

Category: Rogues
Topic: So You Want to be a Rogue?
Message number: 11313
Author: GS4-ILDRAN
Date: 7/5/2008 8:27:17 PM
Subject: Re: Playing my rogue again

IOI: 4

>If so this is a serious change from before. When did he post that? I'd be curious to know when it took place.

Perception hasn't ever helped with aiming melee weapons (though it does help with aiming ranged weapons). The only skills involved have been Ambush and Combat Maneuvers since the AMBUSH verb was created.

- Consigliere Ildran, Shizlock Holmesplice

Category: Rogues
Topic: So You Want to be a Rogue?
Message number: 11313
Author: GS4-ILDRAN
Date: 7/6/2008 8:07:34 AM
Subject: Re: Ildran, Concerning Ambushing

IOI: 4

>Ildran, concerning ambushing, are damage weighted weapons still harder to aim than regular weapons?

No, there's no penalty for aiming weighted weapons.

>And does Parry still not play a role in the ability to target an area?

Correct, stance does not play a role.

- Consigliere Ildran, Shizlock Holmesplice

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hope that helps