GM Oscuro's Thoughts on 320

[Fallen]

Oscuro and I have discussed the concept (deity-specific blessings) of such a proposal, although usually in reference to Holy Receptacle (325), many times. Unfortunately, we always run into the same problems:

1.) It is exceedingly difficult to design and balance 30+ different mechanical benefits. This is especially important when the proposal limits accessibility based upon convert status (in almost all cases, it wouldn't make sense for a Cleric of Lorminstra to be able to grant blessings from Luukos). The only solution I can immediately think of is to restrict blessings by pantheon and offer duplicate abilities across all pantheons.

2.) It requires tremendous effort and time to design, balance, and implement 30+ different mechanical benefits. A typical spells usually does 1-2 things to a specific target. This type of proposal involves dealing in any number of systems doing many different things. There really is no solution to this problem.

3.) Offering multiple smaller bonuses vs. one large bonus. It has been my experience that players prefer the latter even if it is at the cost of diversity. (i.e. 650 vs 350 or 1150)

I definitely want to see Clerics gain access to another blessing spell, as I don't feel Clerics live up to the standard of typical priests in that regard. I'm providing this feedback so that responses to this proposal can account for these factors and hopefully a workable solution can be found.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Well crap, that was Estild, and I can't truly fix the title. Can a mod help me out?

[Fallen]

NOTE: This is further discussion of a spell idea of Belnia, and the limitations of a multi-benefit spell for 320. I figured it would be interesting to Clerics, but non-clerics may simply wish to skip this thread.


<<<<ROBERTSM8I already feel as a neutrally aligned cleric I got royally screwed in this recent shrine adding benefits to blessings update. People of Liabo or Lornon alignments have probably 10x as many shrines they can see a benefit in as I do. There are exactly TWO deities in the neutral pantheon. That seems a bit unfair to us who're neutrally aligned when we get no "partial bonus" shrines other than one other deity, and other clerics have access to a dozen "partial benefit" shrine deities, which greatly increases their access. Anyone ever looked at exactly how many (or how few) neutrally aligned deity shrines exist compared to lornon or liabo shrines? Where's the balance in that?>>>>

We consider the following deities as neutral: Gosaena, Zelia, Aeia, Arachne, the Huntress, and "Other".

The list definitely isn't as large as Liabo or Lornon, but it's also not that difficult to find a shrine for any one of these.

Also, while Liabo or Lornon may have more overall shrines, the benefit does not increase. I.e. if a Cleric of Koar goes to one of Solhaven's Liabo temples for some alignment bonus, just because there are 10+ other Liabo temples in the area does not mean the Cleric is gaining any greater benefit than a Cleric of Gosaena who also goes to a neutral temple in the area. Now, to receive the greatest benefit, a Cleric must go to a shrine of their deity, and in that case, some Clerics have a minor convenience advantage, but it's not insurmountable.

<<<<<<<<ROBERTSM8I absolutely cannot possible disagree with this statement more. I absolutely HATE HATE HATE having a spell that I can only use once a day. I'd MUCH rather see 320 be something that lasts shorter durations but can be cast multiple times a day rather than one long duration or huge boon once a day. I may be in the minority here, but a spell I can only use once a day is near useless. The only slots we've seen this in is the x50 slots, and I certainly hope a level 20 profession spell is NEVER limited to once a day. That would be terribly disappointing. I think the problem with the 650 vs. 350 debate is that 650 has a terribly terribly BAD duration for the mana involved. Its ridiculous to have a spell last 2 minutes for 50 mana, especially for such limited benefits IMO. Either those benefits should be drastically increased for a 2 minute duration, or the duration should be extended considerably. I can't see why it would be the end-all if Assume Aspect lasted 10 minutes instead of 2. Might at least make it somewhat useful for a ranger when he/she hunts.>>>>>>>

My comparison was not meant to imply any benefit would be restricted to once per day.

<<<<<<ROBERTSM8This is what confuses me. How else can clerics get another blessing spell if not deity specific? I can't imagine all this work on the conversion system to be wasted by giving clerics a "generic" blessing spell. It flies in the face of what I see as current design directions for the Clerical profession. Either we're deity specific or we're not. I guess as you pointed out there's the option of having a liabo blessing, a lornon blessing and a neutral blessing. If this is the direction you'd rather see us go in, could you let us know where maybe we could steer the conversation there?>>>>>>

Messaging can be deity-specific while mechanical advantages are generic. Lastly, I'm not saying that mechanical benefits must be generic. I am only pointing out the problem with such an approach. If we were to implement them, they would must likely be limited to 1 deity-specific benefit due to the reasons previously listed.

<<<<<<GRANTAWhy? Why does everyone have to have access to the same blessings? If you want a neat super duper bloodlust battle charm, you should go find a priest of V'tull. And deal with the repercussions of consorting with eeeeevil, any sort of bargain involved in the process and whatnot. Why can't we have a differentiation between Lornon and Liabo? I agree some abilities work well cross pantheon (ie: Lumnis and Fash'lo'nae would probably have similar blessings), but how could any sort of blessing from say V'tull or Marlu be mirrored on the Liabo side? I guess I just feel imposing mirrored abilities for the pantheons takes away from the unique feel of each one.>>>>>>

By offering varying benefits based upon convert status, it creates unfair advantages for a select few. We already have this problem to a lesser extent with Clerics of Charl and lightning criticals. The original Divine Fury (317) when first released was solely dependent upon the deity-specific critical - compare lightning to unbalance or grapple criticals and it was a major problem.

In the past, there has also been suggestions for deity-specific stat bonuses. Imagine being the Cleric that can offer Influence bonuses while another can offer Wisdom.

All benefits don't have to be equal, but they do have to be comparable, especially when dealing with major systems such as combat.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

<<<<<<MSorry, Estild, I'm not trying to be difficult but I just don't understand the issue here. What's wrong with that? I understand one stat bonus is more more desirable than the other, but isn't that the point of deity alignment? To allow divergent paths? I agree with GRANTA here. The precedent is definately there for divergence, and one can base convert decisions on the benefits of the spells one will inherit. I know this sounds like flawed logic, but let's be realistic. Clerics DO base their conversion choices on mechanics most of the time (I know there's exceptions, so please don't run through saying but I don't). That's a reality that was created by the Cleric guru(s) when they decided to implement an alignment system (I like the system, don't get me wrong, it has added great depth to the clerical profession). Since we're on that line of thought, why not consider 320 for some sort of temporary stat/skill enhancement? Would it be difficult to allow a cleric to choose an irrevocable option for some sort of enhancive from a list for their 320? Say, for instance Cleric A can choose from statbonus1, statbonus2, statbonus3, skillbonus1, skillbonus2, skillbonus3 (sort of like how elemental attunement works...one chance to set it and that's it).\ >>>>>>>

The precedent may already be there, but that doesn't mean we want to continue down that path. Most players may think such a system is not problematic, but until they get stuck with the short end of the stick, it's easy to think that. If such a system was implemented, very few, if any, Clerics would consider it fair if they could only grant an Influence bonus while others could grant Wisdom or Strength.

My Cleric was stuck with the previous Z-variable of Bane/Smite (302) and I fought to get that changed. My Cleric got stuck with unbalance crits when Divine Fury (317) was released and I was very vocal about it until it was remedied. Diversity is fine and great, but each aspect should be comparable when dealing with combat or other major systems.

<<<<<<MThat's understandable. Do you mean each deity would only have 1 deity-specific benefit if 320 were made into a blessing spell? I was under the impression that's what we were talking about: A single deity-specific benefit for each deity. >>>>>>

The latest post dealing with the proposal included a minor and major aspect, which would not happen when dealing with deity-specific benefits as it only magnifies the problems previously listed.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Belnia, you lazy bum, X-post your spell idea in this thread and/or folder. From what I read it was quite interesting.

[Belnia]

Here's the original idea. Rimalon and I have been working to think up more benefits, and came to the conclusion that any stat boosting effects should be part of the Common/Shared pool that any cleric could invoke. That means every other Arkati effect would need to be a mechanical feature, that didn't just boost stats. Skills, I think, would be fine.

**********
I don't think Deity specific blessings are ever going to make it for 325, simply due to the vast number of specific blessings and so many Arkati. But I still love the idea of different Arkati granting different blessings, so why not use that idea to fill 320.

The cleric prays to an Arkati or immortal spirit of their choosing, and if successful, the cleric or another designated recipient, receives a divine boon for a duration. Being a draining ritual, the cleric could only attempt to request a boon once a day, with additional requests being based on Religion Lore.

Religion lore, cleric ranks, location (an appropriate shrine), scope (if the cleric is requesting for him or herself, or interceding on someone else's behalf) and convert status (of the cleric, and the recipient if a boon is being requested on someone else's behalf) would all play into the initial check to determine if the prayer is successful.
If it is, duration can be determined based on Summoning ranks and overall success of the initial roll.
Potency of the Boon can be based on Blessings ranks and the overall success of the initial roll.

In this fashion, a cleric could pray to any Arkati to attempt to gain a boon from them, though crossing the streams (Pantheons) still wouldn't be easy. Now, on to the fun stuff:

Arkati of Liabo
Koar - Royal Insight - Allows the recipient to send mana with no inefficiency.
Lumnis - Divine Nudge - Bonus to alchemy research attempts (when that comes out).
Ronan - Guarded Slumber or Guardian of Slumber - Either allows the recipient to enter a dreamlike state (Symbol of Sleep), or grants a small bonus to AS/DS, only during the night.
Lorminstra - Pre-Planned Paperwork - The penalties of Death's Sting are greatly reduced if the recipient dies while under the effects of the boon.
Imaera - Bountiful Harvest - Some sort of foraging bonus and not-so-rapid depletion of a room.
Phoen - Phoen's Strength - As the Ranger spell. Only available outdoors in Sunlight.
Kai - Strength of Arms - Bonus to combat maneuvers, or a random weapon form.
Oleani - ????
Jastev - Telling of the Seers - The recipient will deliver some random prophetic message. (Similar to the Prophecy Masks, here)
Eonak - Boon of the Craftsman - Very small bonus to forging (or any artisan skill) attempts.
Cholen - Similar to Tilamaire's.
Zelia - Magnanimity of the Moons - In true Zelian fashion, a random bonus to just about anything.
Tonis - Blessing of the Swift Thief - Bonus to pickpocketing attempts.
Charl - Stormy Sky - Recipient is granted an emerald trident which will crumble after one swing. It should smite down a single creature with some furious lightning vengeance.

Lesser Spirits of Liabo
Niima - Blessing of the Sea - Bonus to swimming and inability to drown while under the effects.
Tilamaire - Adept Player's Grace - Recipient becomes much more skillful with instruments for the duration. Non bards can tune instruments.
Voaris ????
Laethe ????
Voln - Prayer of the Stalwart - Bonus to resist and shake off the effects of fear.
Kuon - Benediction of the Green - Foraging bonus, can obtain twice the normal amount of herbs from a room.
Aeia - Probably the same as above, their domains overlap pretty well.
Jaston - Boon of Wings - The recipient is granted a bird familiar for the duration.
Leya - Lessons of Combat - Small bonus to Strength and/or Dexterity, and Brawling.

Arkati of Lornon
Eorgina - ???
Sheru - Tremble, Mortals! - The recipient inflicts fear in those attempting to harm him or her, for the duration. (As creature sheer fear, level checks apply.)
Luukos - Preferential Treatment - Undead creatures will not harm the recipient for the duration, unless harmed first.
V'tull - Bloodlust - Small haste-like effect for all combat roundtimes.
Mularos - ????
Ivas - ????
Marlu - Demonic Insight - Bonus to Demonology lore.
Andelas - Feline Grace - Small bonus to stalking and hiding, and dodging. Will not be attacked by feline creatures.
Gosaena - ????
Fash'lo'nae - Reckless Pursuit - Similar to Lumnis, bonus to alchemy research.

Lesser Spirits of Lornon
Arachne - Spider's Web - Resistance or immunity to poisons for the duration, small climbing bonus.
The Huntress - Hunter's Fury - Minor stun resistance, bonus to polearm weapons.
Onar - Blessing of Silence - Bonus to stalking and hiding, AS bonus if using daggers.
Amasalen - Sacrificial Lambs - Increases the effectiveness of a sorcerer using Sacrifice. Allows the recipient to use Sacrifice.

I still haven't figured out appropriate things for some of the Arkati, and the same benefit seems to fit a few Arkati very well.

[ViridianAsp]

Luukos - Preferential Treatment - Undead creatures will not harm the recipient for the duration, unless harmed first.

Seeing as I have a Luukosian, this is not something I would consider useful. My Luukosian hunts undead out of need (she hunts the living because obviously it's easier hunting, and undead/living hunting areas are far and few in between), but otherwise, she stays clear of them. Unless there is going to be another big bad storyline like GSS, as you'll never see my Luukosian trying to help out in a conflict, seige ect. unless she's on the wrong side.

Just sayin'

[diethx]

Charl - Stormy Sky - Recipient is granted an emerald trident which will crumble after one swing. It should smite down a single creature with some furious lightning vengeance.


:rofl: :rofl:

[Some Rogue]

I would totally run around yelling "Lightning bolt!"

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Estild and Oscuro are the best thing to happen to Clerics (and Gemstone spells/classes in General) for years. Actually there are lots of awesome folks, but those two really stand out when I think of what they've done for professions and spells.

[Rimalon]

Here's a new list of ideas, with many of Belnia's included. In general, I think I made them more powerful, but eh. Take a look.

Duration of 320 is generally assumed to be 10 minutes.

--

Arkati of Liabo

Koar: Royal Insight: Allows the recipient to send mana with no inefficiency. +5 Mana Regeneration.

Lumnis: Divine Nudge: Bonus to alchemy research. +25 Max Mana, +5 Mana Regeneration.

Ronan : Guarded Slumber: Either allows the recipient to enter a dreamlike state (Symbol of Sleep, with greatly enhanced bonuses), or, if used in front of creatures, has a chance of putting them to sleep.

Lorminstra: Pre-Planned Paperwork: The penalties of Death's Sting are removed if the recipient dies while under the effects of the boon. IN ADDITION, no deed is removed.

Imaera: Nature's Wrath: Gives self-knowledge of spell 610: Tangleweed. Costs 20 mana per use, and the only version of the spell that may be used is the one cast from a defensive stance.

Phoen: Phoen's Strength: Gains self-knowledge of spell 606. Only available outdoors in Sunlight, and costs 20 mana to cast.

Kai: Strength of Arms: Gains phantom 5 ranks of CMANs Bearhug, Twin Hammerfists, and Bullrush in addition to +25 Max Stamina and +5 Stamina Recovery.

Oleani: ????: Halp plz.

Jastev: Telling of the Seers: The recipient will deliver some random prophetic message. If used in front of creatures, there is a % chance, based on Religion Lore, that the creatures will see their own demise and enter a sheer-fear-like state.

Eonak: Boon of the Craftsman: Bonus to any artisan skill attempt. Like the Adventurer's Guild charms, -40 LBs encumbrance for the duration of the spell.

Cholen: Gender Bender: Allows the Cleric to switch gender for the duration of the spell. In addition, opposite-gender creatures will not target the Cleric unless provoked (mass spells exempt).

Zelia: Magnanimity of the Moons: In true Zelian fashion, another Arkati/Lesser Spirit's bonus is randomly chosen and applied.

Tonis: Blessing of the Swift Thief: Substantial bonus to pickpocketing, bonus to Trading skill.

Charl: Sea of Vengeance: Allows spell Cone of Water (creatures have it) to be cast at a cost of 20 mana.

Lesser Spirits of Liabo

Niima: Blessing of the Sea: Bonus to swimming and inability to drown while under the effects. Large DF bonus for 306: Holy Bolt.

Tilamaire: Adept Player's Grace: Recipient becomes much more skillful with instruments for the duration. Non bards can tune instruments. Self-knowledge of some ghey spellsong.

Voaris: ????: Who the fuck knows?

Laethe: ????: Seriously, who the fuck knows.

Voln: Prayer of the Stalwart: Bonus to resistance and shaking off the effects of fear. Ability to turn undead, using the BESEECH TURN command, removing them from the area. Subject to warding roll, and no experience is gained from their removal.

Kuon: Benediction of the Green: Persistent Troll's Blood like-effect on the Cleric, based on Religion Lore.

Aeia: Blessing of the Earth Mother: All herb-eating RTs reduced to 3 seconds. Gives phantom 100 ranks Spiritual Lore: Summoning for purposes of spell 1118: Herb Production ONLY.

Jaston: Boon of Wings: The recipient is granted a bird familiar (that is noticeably different than Wizards') for the duration. Has same restrictions as Bard familiars summoned from instruments.

Leya: Martial Law: Bonus to unarmed combat. loololololololol.

Arkati of Lornon


Eorgina: Shroud of Darkness: Allows the Cleric to try to break (and prevent) a sanctuary, just like the black shards.

Sheru: Tremble, Mortals!: The recipient inflicts fear in those attempting to harm him or her, for the duration. (As creature sheer fear, level checks apply.)

Luukos: Snake Venom: Complete resistance to disease and poison. In addition, undead creatures will not harm the recipient for the duration, unless harmed first.

V'tull: Bloodlust: Small haste-like effect for all combat roundtimes. Phantom 5 ranks of CMAN Berserk.

Mularos: Pain Into Pleasure: Ability to exchange a Rank 1 wound added to a random body part in for 25 health using the BESEECH PAIN command. +10 Health Regeneration for the duration.

Ivas: Temporary Infatuation: Ivas wraps the Cleric in a magical embrace, disallowing the Cleric to be targeted from any creature. The effect ends if the Cleric makes any offensive action. Mass spells will still affect the Cleric.

Marlu: Demonic Insight: Allows the Cleric to summon a minor demon for the duration of the spell. The minor demon is extremely weak when compared to a Sorcerer's.

Andelas: Nine Lives: +25 ranks of Dodge, +40 ranks Climb. Phantom 2 ranks of CMANs Combat Mobility and Combat Mastery. Will not be attacked by feline creatures.

Gosaena: Gift of Foresight: Allows for a Temporal Reversion-like affect for the duration of the spell. Instead of 200 DS, the bonus is cut in half to 100. % chance of firing dependent on Spiritual Lore: Religion ranks.

Fash'lo'nae: Reckless Pursuit: Bonus to alchemy research. +25 max mana, +5 mana regen.

Lesser Spirits of Lornon

Arachne: Web Mastery: Like the sorcerer demon, arashan, can take control of webs. Adds additional web charges, TD pushdown, and web bolt AS.

The Huntress: Hunter's Fury: Minor stun resistance, complete resistance to being webbed or bound (take that, Arachne).

Onar: Blessing of Silence: Gives phantom stalking and hide ranks. Gives 5 phantom ranks of CMANs Coup de Grace, Cutthroat, and Garrote

Amasalen: Sacrificial Lamb: Allows the Cleric to use the Sacrifice Ability. Period.

--

THOUGHTS?

[Fallen]

Granting an entire class, even if it is only those who follow a specific deity, class specific CMANS, spells, and abilities will be a very tough sell. A scroll may allow you to cast something unusual, but that is finite. This would go far beyond that, and for only a 20th level spell. Even for a 50th level spell, some of these powers would be extremely iffy. I would suggest moving away from deity specific powers, and focus instead on pantheon specific powers, with deity specific messaging. A set of powers for Lornon, one for Liabo, and one for the neutral aligned deities. With lore training, and perhaps with deity specific influence, the numbers of said benefits are tweaked to varying degrees.

[Drew]

At least Estlid and Oscuro seem to realize how crappy 650 is.

[Belnia]

I would say avoid any self knowledge of spells, since they could then be imbedded.

[NocturnalRob]

Um and bring back the emerald trident...

[Makkah]

Ronnie Brown >>> all

[Drew]

Ronnie Brown >>> all

Agreed, I'd love to see him running for an O-line like Minnesota has.

[mrjrd222]

I really like some of those ideas, the +5 mana regen, or +25 mana for 10 minutes with +5 mana regen seems really nice, almost too nice for a level 20 spell, but something might be worked out.

I also agree that any kind of self knowledge of other classes spells/cmans is WAY too powerful and would cause a huge uproar. A pantheon specific spell wouldn't be too bad, although as the ideas for bonuses show, within one pantheon there is a huge variety of what might be expected of a deity.

Another problem with deity specific effects, some people would undoubtedly get zero use of their "new" spell.

I'd like to see some kind of mana regen, or mana leeching ability. Could 320 just be an upgrade to 314 that drains a % of the mana per pulse, and returns it to the caster? There would obviously need to be a cooldown, and a maximum amount of mana that could be drawn based upon warding margin... Although this idea could just be added through lots of lores (yet I don't see that happening, as the spirit lore review is finished).

[Makkah]

Belnia's idea, btw, is a direct rip off of an idea Gnimble and I had for 1050, and I am NOT going to stand it.

(it does sound pretty cool though)