GM Zyllah on Current Profession Development Versus Savants

[Fallen]

<<<< in my opinion, it really isn't fair for another profession to be introduced when, from a design standpoint, the others aren't complete.

on just spells alone we're missing: 150, 235, 250, 320, 335, 350, 440, 450, 535, 550, 735, 750, 935, 940, 950, 1050, 1135, 1140, 1650

i really just don't see how they justify not completing this kind of stuff. it's a big bucket o' fail on SIMUs part.

~Mikoguchi >>>>




Every single one of those spells you listed is a high level spell. In my opinion, at this point in the game I believe all professions can be stated to be finished. All of the professions are highly viable in their current states. Filling all the high level slots, while certainly exceedingly fun to have, is not required in order to make a profession playable or even attractive. If any of the professions had zero spells over the 20th slot then I think it could be stated that profession isn't finished yet. But that's not the case anymore, thank goodness!

My main point though is that high level spells are not easy to come up with that can actually be implemented. So many different goals have to be met for each spell: would the spell add something worthwhile to the profession, would the spell be at least somewhat unigue, would players find any use for it, would the spell's function be worth the mana cost, would the spell be balanced, and I'm sure there's more too.

All this means is that it's very shortsighted to say as a development goal, "We're not going to put any resources into developing a new profession until we have all those high level spell slots filled." Doing that is a very poor use of resources. The high level spells, once designed and approved, are not usually that difficult to code. So once a good idea has been approved the spell can be coded and implemented even while the Dev GMs are working on other projects. The cleric spell 350 is a good example of how that works.

I'm not commenting here on needed improvements/updating to modern standards for existing spells. I do believe some of those should be a high priority. But seriously, we end up with better high level spells leaving their development to the current system of them being implemented as we go along. If we set them as a priority then the goal is to just get the slots filled, and thus quality of the spells would suffer.

I'd rather wait two years and get a nifty spell than to get one four months from now that's completely lackluster but fills the slot in order to create a false sense of completeness. With slot-fillers you know what comes next. Demands from players of that profession to replace the worthless spell before new projects are worked on. ;)

Zyllah

p.s. It's probably worth noting that my statements aren't biased because I'm dying to play a savant. I think they'll be a very interesting addition to the game but personally I'm not into pures. <grin>

[Fallen]

I thought it best to not bother responding to this on the official boards because it would eventually get pulled. If you skimmed over Zyllah's response, I suggest going back and reading it carefully. THIS is the mindset that people who want to see growth for their own, existing professions are up against. I don't have the time to go into detail as to why I staunchly disagree with GM Zyllah's logic, but I know for a fact that it is shared by several other GMs.

[Allereli]

GM Zyllah's logic

these words often don't go together

[Baelog]

SAVANTS!?!?!11!?!?//1?!?

[Fallen]

<<< In my opinion, at this point in the game I believe all professions can be stated to be finished. All of the professions are highly viable in their current states. Filling all the high level slots, while certainly exceedingly fun to have, is not required in order to make a profession playable or even attractive. If any of the professions had zero spells over the 20th slot then I think it could be stated that profession isn't finished yet. But that's not the case anymore, thank goodness! >>>


I think this is the part of her logic with which I most strongly disagree. I do NOT think any of the professions should be considered "Finished". Are all the professions viable? Sure, but aside from empaths being able to hunt as good as any other pure 1-100, that has been done for years. Saying that further work on existing profession spell lists should take a backseat to entirely new professions is a mistake. I can't think of a better way to phrase it. Even rangers, who have a completed spell list would benefit from as much GM attention as they can possibly garner to get a working guild complete with Roleplay oriented, and combat/utility use guild skills.


I can understand the fact that Zyllah is stating halting development solely for new high level spells is a mistake, though to a point I still disagree with her. However, I contend that ANY work on new professions and spell lists take a backseat to further development of existing professions. So you don't want to fill 750...fine. Take the resources going to design the Savant spell lists and fix 713 and 716. You can't come up with 1050? Code the bard guild's skills.


People are clamoring for existing profession growth OVER the creation of new professions. If you cannot give them what they want in the form of high level spells, then fulfill the needs that still VERY MUCH exist with our current classes. Improved CMANs and profession specific features for squares, guild skills for semi's, and lore reviews, spell modifications, and guild skills for pures. ALL professions should have their own Oscuro/Estild. If that means that Savants and Monks never come about, then so be it.

[CrystalTears]

So you didn't post that on the officials? You really should. Growth for professions doesn't lie exclusively on high level spells.

[Baelog]

What Fallen said. Very well written. And yes, I think you should post that on the Officials, even if there's a large chance that it'll get taken down by the leader of the GemStone Gestappo, and we all know who that is

[Fallen]

I just did. I had to count to ten a few dozen times before I could organize my thoughts.

[Fallen]

The issue with development resources always boils down to the TYPE of coding that is being done. The CE team cannot code spells, so saying RP events should be cancelled so that a new spell can instead be made is faulty logic. In this case, however, the resources being tapped to build Savants and monks are exactly what is needed to further develop the existing professions.

Work on Savants/Monks *IS* directly taking away from your favored profession. Sometimes in the form of pulling from existing professions "Guru's", and the rest of it taking NEW Dev resources and setting them aside for THE NEW AND EXCITING!!.. blech

[Xaerve]

This thread makes me sad. Great points Fallen.

[B2]

Zyllah usually prefaces all of her posts with "I'm not a Dev GM and have no say whatsoever in any sort of game development and these are my personal feelings, not a GM stance." ZOI-1.

It's kind of useless to get upset at anything she says.

[Fallen]

As I said, her mindset has been echoed on the boards by more than a few GMs. The mantra is old growth is not as important as new growth. They can produce more by volume making a new profession with the same amount of resources it takes to fix up a few things on an old profession. What I don't know is who is heralding this stance, besides other GMs? I am much more excited for the elemental lore review than I am Monks, and it takes a hell of a lot less effort to crank that out than a new profession.

[CrystalTears]

I guess I don't understand how new development would be "easier" than current profession development. You would think since the professions are used thoroughly and have enough research that updating them isn't that big of an issue.

New development has to undergo a huge amount of QA to pass, as opposed to current stuff that is just QAing what's new and passing it on. Then again I'm speaking on personal experience with different software, but the concept should be relatively the same.

[thefarmer]

As I said, her mindset has been echoed on the boards by more than a few GMs. The mantra is old growth is not as important as new growth. They can produce more by volume making a new profession with the same amount of resources it takes to fix up a few things on an old profession. What I don't know is who is heralding this stance, besides other GMs? I am much more excited for the elemental lore review than I am Monks, and it takes a hell of a lot less effort to crank that out than a new profession.

The problem I think is a lot of staff in the decision-making seats are GS lifers. So to them, all the bugs and kinks and problems have always been there, so they're used to it. Since they see the 'future plans' in their assorted and typically unannounced RSN phases, they get more excited about the shiny new things that GS can provide. It's hard for GMs to have a player persepective anymore, since a large majority (if not all) play their PCs rarely, especially the longtime ones.

Tie that with the bad/complicated legacy code that a majority if the game has, and the idea that "if we release shiny new toys they'll forget the old broken ones for a little while". Also, I can understand how some would feel their time better spent on accomplishing something new, then fixing x mechanic that has been needing update for y number years. Less hassle and creating something brand new.

[CrystalTears]

God yes. They need to update and remove that old code that no one wants to deal with.

[Rathgar]

I also think they got the wrong guys on the wrong projects. For instance, now that Coase has left Estild/Oscuro is on monks full time. Well, I recall back in Oscuro's previous official messages that "I'm really more looking forward to Savants then monks. Not really interested in monks per say."

Basically, you have a guy working on the brand spanking new unarmed combat sys and a profession that he has absolutely no interest in.Further, I think he's severely pure inclined not that he's bias but that he's used to giving a profession it's abilities through spells. "No, their natural armor is entirely by 1602 and not through any innate monk ability."

I just don't think a product can be fleshed out as best as it can when the people working on them A.) Don't like the concept of what their doing. B.) Rather be working on something else. Now people will say, "Hey, STFU and do your job." But you can only say that when the person doing the job is getting PAID and not a volunteer.

Thus, you see a steady decline in quality, as folks leave and GS management scrambles to ram and squeeze people into projects they may NOT like or even hate.

Just my two cents.

[Allereli]

Also posted by Zyllah today re harnesses closing:

<<In before a million people post logs of them closing their harnesses!>>

Yeah I know there are a lot of sheaths and harnesses out there that are closeable. I think this is mostly due to the fact that when a GM creates an item made from a container profile it is by default set to be able to open and close. A lot of GMs don't go back and change it. I still stand by my statement that sheaths and harnesses are not container types that open and close since by design they can't. ;)

For the flap on a sheath comment, if there was a flap across the top of the sheath then your weapon would not be able to fit inside with it closed, since the hilt would be sticking out past the top of the sheath. If it's the case of one of those thin straps that fits over one side of the hilt guard, that's not the same thing as actually closing a container.

Zyllah

/facepalm

I swear she just makes comments to show that a GM is reading the boards

[CrystalTears]

Facepalm indeed.

[Parkbandit]

Zyllah is one of the worst GMs in the game. I decided that being a Senior Game Host wasn't worth the trouble of having to deal with her and left the program and then the game. She always felt that she needed to give you constructive criticism before you actually responded to the guests... like she wanted to either treat you like a puppet OR she was honing her ESP and knew what you were going to say before you said it.

[Askip]

One part I must agree with:

<< I'd rather wait two years and get a nifty spell than to get one four months from now that's completely lackluster but fills the slot in order to create a false sense of completeness. >>

930 rocks, 520 is so-so, 535 is teh suck.

Of course, it would be even better to get a nice spell in four months.

:D

[Danical]

I think the reason for the preference of New Growth is fairly obvious; New Growth is a marketing ploy.

However, just filling slots like the pieces of shit that are 1025 and 1040 sucks pendulous donkey balls.

Sorc spells need work.
MnE and MjE need reviewing.
Empaths should go demonic.
Warriors need to be less gear dependent, most exciting, most post cap advancement options.
MONKS!!!!!!!!!!11

[Danical]

One part I must agree with:

<< I'd rather wait two years and get a nifty spell than to get one four months from now that's completely lackluster but fills the slot in order to create a false sense of completeness. >>

930 rocks, 520 is so-so, 535 is teh suck.

Of course, it would be even better to get a nice spell in four months.

:D

535?

[Martaigne]

If it's the case of one of those thin straps that fits over one side of the hilt guard, that's not the same thing as actually closing a container.

Zyllah

> close scabbard

You tie the peace knot on your scabbard.

[CrystalTears]

I think the reason for the preference of New Growth is fairly obvious; New Growth is a marketing ploy.Marketing to who?

[Danical]

Marketing to who?

AHA!!!!!!!

wait.

:(

[Rimalon]

They've got until StarCraft 2 comes out to impress me with SOMETHING--whether it be the Elemental Lore Review, a new spell, alchemy phase 2, whatever--or else I'm out for a couple years.

OUT, I SAY. Just not worth all that money per month to grind post-cap XP.

[Methais]

I'd rather wait two years and get a nifty spell than to get one four months from now that's completely lackluster but fills the slot in order to create a false sense of completeness.

Tell that to sorcerers who waited 10+ years for demons and got some weak halfass shit in return for their patience.

[Numbers]

I still don't understand how and if Simu is getting any new customers. They don't seem to do ANY marketing whatsoever.

The last advert I saw for a Simu product was when they were still on AOL.

[diethx]

I saw an article on Hero's Journey a few years ago in a gaming magazine that J got a subscription to by signing up for GameStop's membership program thing. They spelled them "Simultronics", though. Heh. I guess that's not exactly an advertisement, though.

[Methais]

535?

Think he meant 530, which from my experience, is only useful against sentries and greater water elementals to bring them down to a wardable TD. Even then it's a gamble.

[Senglent]

Wow, just sad. No other way to put it.

Yet another reason (or a reminder of a couple) why I will be taking a break from GS soon (yet to be determined if it's permanent).

They really need to shake up management and fire some of the current staff for ineptitude.

Hmmm now what should I spend my extra money on now?

[Sean of the Thread]

Hmmm now what should I spend my extra money on now?


A pizza and a 12 pack?

*More importantly what do you plan with your new spare time?

[Danical]

You can get a pizza and a 12er for 15?

Seriously?

[Makkah]

Frozen pizza from Walmart Deli and Natty Lite. Sure.

[Sean of the Thread]

No usually just a 12er for $15 but I through it in just in case we're talking about a premium account or more than likely two basics.


Pizza alone is 15 nowadays ffs. Now I'm hungry and thirsty... thanks.

[Danical]

Pizza alone is 15 nowadays ffs. Now I'm hungry and thirsty... thanks.

You started it :(

[Sean of the Thread]

Frozen pizza from Walmart Deli and Natty Lite. Sure.


I haven't had walmart pizza but I've been told it's good. Personally if I'm going frozen I gotta have a Tomb Stone.

There really are no good original pie places here. I miss good mom and pop pies. Something there was an abundance of up north.

[Makkah]

Actually, I typed that incorrectly. The good pizzas at Walmart aren't actually frozen. Just uncooked. They really are good.

[Senglent]

Actually its my premium and basic and my wifes basic. (she said If I am not playing anymore why should she).

And where the hell do you pay $15 for a 12er? thats a 24 by me.

*free time?

Finish rebuilding my 1958 ford F-100 (my first truck) and my 1957 chevy Belair (I like the chevy cause it was my dads first car), and thats most likely where the money is gonna go. I really don't have much left to buy for them as far as parts, so the money will be for the beer in the garage ;)

[Elementz]

Pizza alone is 15 nowadays ffs.

In defense of pizza, Little Caesar's got those $5 pizzas (They taste like cardboard but with a case anything can taste good...)!!

I've got nothing to defend Simu with. Zyllah was full of teh suck on that post. :banghead:

[Sean of the Thread]

Actually its my premium and basic and my wifes basic. (she said If I am not playing anymore why should she).

And where the hell do you pay $15 for a 12er? thats a 24 by me.

*free time?

Finish rebuilding my 1958 ford F-100 (my first truck) and my 1957 chevy Belair (I like the chevy cause it was my dads first car), and thats most likely where the money is gonna go. I really don't have much left to buy for them as far as parts, so the money will be for the beer in the garage ;)

Nice trucks. Slightly jealous.

Beer is slightly expensive down here for some reason. 12 pack of just plain miller lite is 11 bucks. Up north it was much cheaper.

[Sean of the Thread]

Actually, I typed that incorrectly. The good pizzas at Walmart aren't actually frozen. Just uncooked. They really are good.


Oohhh I've had those and yeah not bad at all. Well I've had the uncooked ones from Sam's Club which is basically a big ass walmart. Prolly the same thing.

But alas I'm walking to Publix to find the perfect frozen pizza and stop at walgreens for a 1.75 of the cheap vodka.

Wish me luck.

[Makkah]

Publix chicken strips >>> all

[thefarmer]

Tostinos are the best frozen pizza. Can usually find the for a buck in the grocery store.

Also fuck Publix frozen pizza the CHICKEN TENDERS and/or SANDWICH IS WHERE IT"S AT!!1!!1!!!

[Senglent]

good luck on the Vodka! and May I recommend Svedka for a nicely priced Vodka? Not bad ,pretty smooth, and it's only $10 for a liter, least up north.

And Yeah I put that up thinking of miller lite then thought of Corona, heiniken, and the other stuff that goes for about $15 a 12er.

[Sean of the Thread]

mmmm tenders. I seriously have not eaten in a couple days and that sounds splendid. Perhaps with a can of hunts spag sauce and a $1 loaf of french or cuban bread first broiled with garlic and butter.


FUUUUCK.

[Sean of the Thread]

Tostinos are the best frozen pizza. C

Tosti's as we call them are like $1.50 now here but no where near the quality of a nice tombstone.

dipshit was talking about chicken tenders now... arrrgh why do you guys fuck with me so much.

[Stunseed]

Tostinos are the best frozen pizza. Can usually find the for a buck in the grocery store.

Also fuck Publix frozen pizza the CHICKEN TENDERS and/or SANDWICH IS WHERE IT"S AT!!1!!1!!!

A Publix steak and cheese sandwich with sweet, hot, green and banana peppers does it up right for me. A real treat.

[thefarmer]

I will admit that that sandwich also wins epically.. just not as much as the chicken.

[Makkah]

dipshit was talking about chicken tenders now... arrrgh why do you guys fuck with me so much.

Because you're a fat fucker?

[onurb]

http://www.caymanshoppers.com/media/Sausage%20Pep..jpg

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm not a fat fucker anymore dipshit. I'm down to 201lbs (publix scale ftw) and look like a rail.


ANNNNYYYY WAYS. Just got back. Fucking strips are $8 something a LB which ends up like 5 strips. No thanks. I thought about a philly sub or an ultimate but they're 8 bucks as well. Not in my budget but either wasn't out of the question it was just my first stop.

Frozen aisle.. LOW AND BEHOLD.. tombstones on sale 2 for $6. Score. Ones in the oven now percolating it's yummy out.

Oh and the cheapest vodka was Popov and it was 11.49 now. :/

Fucking stunseed had to bring up the banana peppers.. I'm craving that now. You guys gotta keep in mind I go a couple days without eating at a time at the moment.. fucking food sounds good when you bring it up. When I don't think about I'm fine.

[Senglent]

Hey Banana peppers and pepperoni pizza! Now thats the shit!

[Sean of the Thread]

I wish I had a jar of them. Ahhhh the good old days. You know you're poor when you can't afford a jar of peppers for 2 something with the olive branches on it.. I forget the name. But damn those are good.

I put them on everything. Then again I made homemade subs all the time. Roast beef (save the emislutty pics I invented them) cheese lettuce and banananannanana peppers. Fucking yum.

[DCSL]

I'm hungry, fuckers. ;_; Damn you all.

[Sean of the Thread]

I uncharacteristically ate half the pizza. I'm going to feel guilt about it all night.

[Stunseed]

I wish I had a jar of them. Ahhhh the good old days. You know you're poor when you can't afford a jar of peppers for 2 something with the olive branches on it.. I forget the name. But damn those are good.

I put them on everything. Then again I made homemade subs all the time. Roast beef (save the emislutty pics I invented them) cheese lettuce and banananannanana peppers. Fucking yum.

Mt. Olive makes some damn good peppers. I normally buy Vlassic, for my sweets and banana peppers, if I cook a meal with it, I'll use the juices to heighten the taste.

For my slow cook chili, I'll brown meat, drain it tons and then add a can of corn and sweet peppers and cook it into them. Good stuff. For a cheap fix, use a large skillet and cook your sweets/bananas on one side and Steak-Ums on the other. Flop that cheap shit meat onto the skillet and pour some of the sweet pepper juices on it.

[DCSL]

Will you sadistic bastards hush up? I purposefully avoid the recipe thread for this exact reason. Damnit. When the hell will my pizza show up?!

[Sean of the Thread]

Mt Olive! That's it.

[Askip]

Red Baron supreme pizza is decent, but I add toppings.

The best food value around here (North Georgia) is Golden Corral. A great buffet for less than $10 bucks and if you want to pocket a few fried chicken breasts to go...

<< Think he meant 530, which from my experience, is only useful against sentries and greater water elementals to bring them down to a wardable TD. Even then it's a gamble. >>

Yeah, that. Thanks Methais.

:D

[Makkah]

Steak Night at Golden C is bangin...

[Sean of the Thread]

oh shit they have a Golden C here but I've only been once.. it was a fight for you life type of place and I can't say I enjoyed the food but maybe the "I'm afraid that I'm going to get shanked in the back" mood ruined it for me.


I hit up Sweet Tomatoes for my buffet needs. And it's delicious.

[diethx]

I love the pizza at Golden Corral. Only place in GA that has decent pizza. I dunno what they put in it, maybe crack. It's that irresistable. I'd take their breakfast buffet over their lunch or dinner any day of the week though. Unfortunately i'm not usually up in time for it. But it's the most wonderful spread i've ever seen.

[Belnia]

Totino's party pizzas for like 89 cents each. Grab an extra bag of shredded pizza cheese and you're on your way to yumville.

I've also had some pretty good results with omelettes for dining on the cheap. A 3 egg omelette is a great way to wrap up a lot of stuff. Toss in peppers, mushrooms, veggies, potatos, meats. Any combination of those and you're golden.

[Parkbandit]

I haven't had walmart pizza but I've been told it's good. Personally if I'm going frozen I gotta have a Tomb Stone.

There really are no good original pie places here. I miss good mom and pop pies. Something there was an abundance of up north.


There's a place in Oldsmar called Alberto's that's pretty good.

[grenthor]

There's a place in Oldsmar called Alberto's that's pretty good.

Country Pizza Inn has the best Pizza anywhere around here. Only have 2 places both in Clearwater but its worth the drive from anywhere.

[Fallen]

>>Take the resources going to design the Savant spell lists and fix 713 and 716.

I don't disagree with the general sentiment of the argument that there is something that could be done for every profession. That's obviously true. However, I do have to say that the above quoted line is an example of something we intentionally avoid doing. Generally, GMs work on projects they enjoy working on. If they didn't, they would burn out very quickly and quit (which is what has happened to many people in the past). So reassigning a GM who's excited to design and code Savants to work on Sorcerer spells they don't give two cents about is only going to slow down the overall progress of the game. For example, if the player-base was given the option of keeping me working on Cleric/Empath/Monk/Savant development for years to come, or to have me crank out a new version of Disease (716) only to quit when it's 75% done since I just didn't care anymore, I think they'd choose the former.

Of course, there are a few exceptions to this when great needs arise, but this is rare and only occurs when the higher ups are willing to risk losing a GM by assigning them to an undesirable project simply because that project is so incredibly necessary or has gone delinquent for far too long.

I'm not suggesting that people don't ever volunteer to "take one for the team." However, months- to years-long projects certainly require a high level of motivation to complete.

Otherwise, Zyllah's summed up our project prioritization pretty well, especially with regard to high-level spells.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

I agree with Oscuro in that if a GM doesn't give a flying fuck about the task to which he is being assigned, then he shouldn't be pushed to do it. However, I also felt the need to post that with so many GMs quitting, that atleast some of them had to do so over creative differences.

[Parkbandit]

[I]
I'm not suggesting that people don't ever volunteer to "take one for the team." However, months- to years-long projects certainly require a high level of motivation to complete.


I think it's awesome they have "years-long projects" in a text based game.

:rofl:

[Stretch]

What exactly has been delinquent so long that they've pushed additional resources into it?

[Baelog]

I think it's awesome they have "years-long projects" in a text based game.

:rofl:

The whole of GemStone seems to be one big decades-long project that never quite gets finished, yet they insist on adding new stuff to

[Parkbandit]

My favorite part is their customers that just keep taking it in the ass because improvements are just around the corner! Just keep paying the $15, $30, $60 a month and have just a little faith.. everything will be released soon!

Monks and Savants were first announced when again?

[Baelog]

You know what just might free up some resources and get coders to actually get to coding, and hell...might pull GemStone back from where it is?

1. Remove Platinum
2. Pay your fucking staff
3. Advertise
4. ????
5. Profit

[zhelas]

Though I must ask, with this year's massive amount of GM's who quit, one has to wonder at who was being asked to do what when they didn't quite feel up to it?
-Fallen

We lost 2 established coders this year on the development team. While their loss definitely hit hard on meeting our goals, I'd hardly call 2 a "massive amount of GMs".

~Sirina


So how many coders are left currently on the development team????
Since a lot of goals didn't get completed this year, it seems to me that even losing 1 coder would have been a major hit.

[Fallen]

What exactly has been delinquent so long that they've pushed additional resources into it?

I think Belnia kept a running tally of all the announced things that were either delayed, put on hold, or cancelled indefinitely. It was well over half of their existing goals, I believe. That was only for this year's goals, and some of those were hold overs from last year..

People don't think 2 coders leaving can cripple productivity? Remove Estild and Oscuro from staff and see what would have been put out this year. Sunfist? Wasn't that Coase's baby? Now he is gone. Profession devoted GMs are often tagged to releases which far exceed their requirements as Gurus. Look at Strathspay, our sorcery guru, and the treasure system. However, if what Oscuro said is true, and Strathspay doesn't give a rat's ass about sorcery, I would rather him spend 40% of his time on us, and the rest on areas of interest instead of him burning out and quitting after a year.

[Fallen]

More on the issue from GM's Sirina and Oscuro...

----
>>>Though I must ask, with this year's massive amount of GM's who quit, one has to wonder at who was being asked to do what when they didn't quite feel up to it? >>>>>

We lost 2 established coders this year on the development team. While their loss definitely hit hard on meeting our goals, I'd hardly call 2 a "massive amount of GMs".

~Sirina

-----

https://www.play.net/images/transparent.gif>>>>>A convincing argument, Oscuro. Thank you for the response. Though I must ask, with this year's [two Dev] GM's who quit, one has to wonder at who was being asked to do what when they didn't quite feel up to it?>>>>>>

I can't speak for them, but I don't think I'd attribute either of our two dev GMs we lost this year to the aforementioned phenomenon. Just because that's why some GMs leave our team, it doesn't mean that's why all do. There are many reasons why people move on; most of the reasons involve real life priorities. In fact, in recent years, I've noticed that project assignment has been done in a way to avoid GM burn out as much as possible. I personally appreciate that very much. It makes the job feel a lot more like a hobby and less like a...job.

In any case, there are a number of us dev GMs excited to do work on both Monks and Savants. And even though we're working on those professions, it doesn't mean we're not working on our existing professions, either.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team

(https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&command=ignoreauthor&iauthor=GS4-OSCURO)
--------https://www.play.net/images/transparent.gif

>>>>>>BTW Zyllah, I don't consider 320 to be a particularly high level spell. Any pure class that doesn't have a full spell list up to level 20 shouldn't be considered 'finished'.>>>>>>>

While I agree that of all current empty spell slots, 320 should be the highest priority to fill, it doesn't mean that we should just fill it with any old thing. If you head over to the Cleric folder, we have had many discussions there about the design parameters for the spell. GM Estild and I have been brainstorming for the last three years for this slot and have, unfortunately, been unable to thusfar find something that meets all the required constraints. We'll continue to brainstorm for this slot, but we're not going to halt all our development because we're stumped on one slot. It's not an emergency situation, as Clerics are, on the whole, doing well as a class.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team

[Stretch]

Let's play the numbers game a bit here with the following assumptions.

- 400 to 500 Prime accounts logged in during peak hours
- 30% of Prime accounts are Premie
- 40 to 50 active Plat accounts during peak hours

Assume total active accounts = 10x peak hour log ins. Ball park monthly revenue would be

500 x 10 x 0.7 x 15 = 52.5k
500 x 10 x 0.3 x 40 = 60.0k
50 x 10 x 50 = 25.0k

$137,500 in monthly subscription revenue. My active account mutiplier is probably way too aggressive, so call it a range of $70k - $140k.

Assume they're able to get 100 new sign-ups with $10k in marketing (about one basis point net response at average CPM display rates). Also assume that the retention rate after the free 30 days is 70%, with a 100% renewal rate for the first year (not likely).

Does it pay for itself? Sure, but they would probably be better off finding more opportunities to whore out / improve Hero Engine. Why invest peanuts into a sinking ship for another few thousand in revenue per month when you can make 10x that with a new license?

[Stretch]

To continue, the Gemstone subscription base hasn't dropped off quite as much as I had thought.

Peak hours now run around what, 550-600? In late 2003, it was around 1000 at its high point. Worst-case scenario, call it a 50% drop off in subscriptions over the past 5 years.

That was somewhat offset by the pricing increases (Prime to $14.95, Premium to $39.95). Granted there were probably a fair number of people who dropped from premie to prime as a result, but I'm guessing their overall revenue stream didn't change drastically enough for them to care enough to put out a ton of releases.

[Rathgar]

All I know is that if unarmed combat and monks don't bring anything new and exciting to the game then I'm done, read as: quit.

Just taking a step back and looking at it, paying 30 bucks for a text based MMO when you can be paying half that for an MMO with an army of PAID and professional developers working 9 to 5 day in and day out just doesn't make any sense anymore. Whatever, lets see what the next 6 months will bring.

[CrystalTears]

All I know is that if unarmed combat and monks don't bring anything new and exciting to the game then I'm done read as: quit.So you've been about to quit for the last four years? ;)

[Parkbandit]

There will be a point at some time in the future that GS will cease to exist because the Revenue < Expenses. That time period won't be anytime soon, since they run it on a shoe string budget... and many of their customers have almost zero expectations from the game and are happy with the way it currently is.

[Belnia]

I kept a large list of the 2007 goals, when it was still divided up quarterly. We seem to have moved away from quarterly goals to a few large scale projects a year.

[Rathgar]

So you've been about to quit for the last four years? ;)

Yeah you're right. I should have done it a long time ago, especially when WoW came out.

But, I'm really looking forward to this new unarmed combat sys because it may break away (hoping and praying) from the standard "AS:Blah - DS:Blah blah + AvD = Blah blah blah"

I'm expecting like 30 different martial moves spread across different styles with the ability to string combos and create new moves (similar to alchemy and recipes).

We'll see what they come up with.

[Sean of the Thread]

I just want proper verbs added that allow me to slam my virtual balls into an asshole.

C'mon SIMU... my needs need to be met.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah you're right. I should have done it a long time ago, especially when WoW came out.

But, I'm really looking forward to this new unarmed combat sys because it may break away (hoping and praying) from the standard "AS:Blah - DS:Blah blah + AvD = Blah blah blah"

I'm expecting like 30 different martial moves spread across different styles with the ability to string combos and create new moves (similar to alchemy and recipes).

We'll see what they come up with.
Maybe I've gotten cynical in my older age, but I see it more as maybe a souped up version of Voln Fu. I honestly don't see them going into any kind of elaborate changes and combos for the combat.

And really, if they introduce guild skills along with the profession, it will be a major fuckup on their behalf seeing as how bards and rangers don't have anything, and the casters just have alchemy for the most part. I for one will be seriously pissed off.

[Methais]

Estild and I have been brainstorming for the last three years for this slot and have, unfortunately, been unable to thusfar find something that meets all the required constraints.

Stumped for 3 years.....on one spell......3 years.....most full fledged gigantic blockbuster games take less than 3 years to go from nothing to finished product.


3 years.....
















































http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/neosimkin/rofl.png

[TheRoseLady]

Are they doing any merchant/pay events? It's kind of sad to know that as time goes by...little changes in Simuland.

I'm surprised that more folks haven't dropped their subscriptions based on the economy.

As an aside, Zyllah created some kick-ass items for my cleric over the years. She really put out some nice RP items.

Sorry...rambling...

[thefarmer]

But, I'm really looking forward to this new unarmed combat sys because it may break away (hoping and praying) from the standard "AS:Blah - DS:Blah blah + AvD = Blah blah blah"

I'm expecting like 30 different martial moves spread across different styles with the ability to string combos and create new moves (similar to alchemy and recipes).

You should just sell out now.

The expectations have been built up so much by you and others, there's no way it'll ever come close to what you expect. String combos? This isn't street fighter. Create new moves? Alchemy doesn't just make up new recipes, at least not in the sense you're thinking of.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm officially drunk. Theis was the vodka trhead so I thought I'd post it here.

[TheLastShamurai]

There is a significant difference in designing spells for a completely new profession (Monks or Savants) and designing a single spell for an existing, balanced, and complete profession (Clerics).

from Estild in response to this comment i made...


well according to the cleric team, they've been trying to THINK of a spell for the 20th Cleric slot for three years.

so following that kind of progress if monks came out in 09, we would be ahead of schedule.

[Drunken Durfin]

Peak hours now run around what, 550-600? In late 2003, it was around 1000 at its high point. Worst-case scenario, call it a 50% drop off in subscriptions over the past 5 years.


574 players are adventuring in DragonRealms right now!
419 players are adventuring in GemStone IV right now!
14 players are adventuring in Alliance of Heroes right now!
8 investigators in Modis Operandi right now!
9 players in Cyberstrike2 (according to fan page)

[Makkah]

Dunno if I'd call 10-11 PM as peak, but yea, I'd say 500ish is about right for peak.

[Ausek]

I actually saw us top over 600 the other evening...was quite suprised.

[Danical]

It makes me sad to think of all the burned out players of Graphical MMOs that would absolutely love GS if they only knew about it; people that really would like RP and not just Gear Hunting.

[Rathgar]

Whatley is a fairly smart dude probably. If he genuinely believed that advertising would draw more players into the game he would have done it like a million years ago... to him it's all about the $$ so he definetly would have advertised.

Seeing how he hasn't he must think that it wouldn't help at all.

[TheLastShamurai]

i'm not so sure of that.