A poll for TheRoseLady's thread.

[Moist Happenings]

Just interested to know.

You'll note there is no "ESP is real and I know it" option, because there isn't sufficient scientific data to support it yet. From the other thread you undoubtedly know my opinion on it. Just interested to know what the ratio is.

[Tisket]

I wonder why so few (none) of the self-proclaimed psychics of the world foretold 9/11, or any major disaster really...

Come to think of it, why didn't the people who died in those disasters call in sick that day. No 'intuition' there apparently.

[Moist Happenings]

I wonder why you limit the idea of ESP to predicting the future.

Watch less television.

[Tisket]

Says the person who claims his poker prowess is due to something other than normal skill.

[Moist Happenings]

Again, jump to more conclusions. It really helps your case.

[Tisket]

Again, avoidance from Neff. Big fucking surprise there.

[Moist Happenings]

Okay, if you really want to get into a debate about it, show me where I claimed that all of my poker skill was based on a sixth sense. I stated that there are times when I have a feeling, and those feelings are usually right.

Did you fail algebra?

ACDC is a great band does not equate to all bands are great bands.

Sometimes I have feelings that are correct is not greater than or equal to all of my poker skills come from feelings.

Hence, jumping to conclusions.

Here, I'll jump to one too, if it'll help you feel better.

I'm jumping to the conclusion that you didn't even bother to read the link I gave you in the other thread, and instead are content to wallow in blissful ignorance with your extensive feelings of skepticism based on television psychics, and Miss Cleo. I'm also jumping to the conclusion that you're a churchgoing christian that believes gravity can't exist because it goes against what Mel Gibson says about God.

You say there's no conclusive scientific evidence that ESP exists. That's true. I never said there was. I'm saying there's no conclusive scientific evidence saying it doesn't exist, either. Again, in the next 100 years, I think we'll have a clearer picture, and until then, I choose to believe it does. So what are you, calling me an idiot for keeping an open mind?

They burned bitches smarter than you for that as being witches, you know.

[Fallen]

No.

[CrystalTears]

I believe in ESP, I just feel that it's a rare ability and most people who say they have it just have intuition and really good gut reactions to things simply because they know how to "read" people.

[Moist Happenings]

I believe in ESP, I just feel that it's a rare ability and most people who say they have it just have intuition and really good gut reactions to things simply because they know how to "read" people.

QFT

Edit:

I also think it might be possible that people who've trained their brains to or just naturally can read people have a better chance at developing some sort of extra sensory perception, though. The same way you have a better chance of winning a marathon if you train for it.

[Sean]

I do not believe in ESP. But I'm laughing at Neff and Tisket getting into a flying spaghetti monster argument.

[Kranar]

Okay, if you really want to get into a debate about it, show me where I claimed that all of my poker skill was based on a sixth sense. I stated that there are times when I have a feeling, and those feelings are usually right.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

Should be an interesting read for you. The short version is about a horse in Germany who was supposedly trained to do math and comprehend the German language by stomping its feet to answer German questions. Turned out the horse was not a mathematician at all, but was simply very good at detecting subtle and involuntary reactions from humans in the audience who knew the correct answer and whose body language was guiding the horse.

I do not doubt that you have a similar capacity when playing poker, and in fact I would be surprised if many good poker players didn't have such feelings. These feelings, however, are not a form of ESP, and you will not have those feelings when playing poker online.



I believe in ESP, I just feel that it's a rare ability and most people who say they have it just have intuition and really good gut reactions to things simply because they know how to "read" people.

Keep in mind that ESP refers to EXTRA sensory perception. The ability to read people can only be considered ESP if that read is being done absent of any physical characteristics being given off, even if involuntarily, but the person being read.

People who are good at reading others are usually good because of tells, subtle and mostly subconscious gestures that humans give off. Such reads are being acquired through the normal senses, mostly vision.

ESP would be something paranormal, being able to read another person's mind without using your normal senses, like if you can read someone elses mind while they're in another room or something.

What you describe in your post is definitely real, it's just not ESP.

[CrystalTears]

I also think it might be possible that people who've trained their brains to or just naturally can read people have a better chance at developing some sort of extra sensory perception, though. The same way you have a better chance of winning a marathon if you train for it.Nope, I don't believe that being possible.

Developing heightened senses is one thing. Developing ESP is quite another and I feel that it's an already developed sense, if it exists at all. I'm just open to the idea.

I also don't believe you have ESP either.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Should be an interesting read for you. The short version is about a horse in Germany who was supposedly trained to do math and comprehend the German language by answering German questions by stomping its feet. Turned out the horse was not a mathematician at all, but was simply very good at detecting subtle and involuntary reactions from humans in the audience who knew the correct answer and whose body language was guiding the horse.



I agree with Kranar. I think it's more likely that Neff has the intellectual capacity of horse, rather than ESP.

[Nieninque]

So this thread is a poll and a discussion about another thread?

Tasty!

p.s. ROFL @ Dar.

[Nieninque]

In before "Stalker!"

[Moist Happenings]

I agree with you Kranar about the intuition aspect, and perhaps the poker example was a bad one, but I'll elaborate a little.

I do work a lot off intuition at the poker table. It's what allows me to make money, but it's those odd situations that don't make any sense at all that I consider to be something more.

For instance,

I'm in seat 1 at the table in bad position (Button's across the table). I pull 5/6 of spades. This is a hand I wouldn't ever by the numbers do anything with pre-flop. But I looked at it and said "This is a winning hand." as soon as it was dealt.

I had gotten reads on two other people at the table as the hand was being dealt before I looked at my cards. The read told me they were strong. (One of these people ended up being in the hand with me. One didn't).

So I limp in for two bucks. Seat 3 raises 80 dollars, which is about 35 more than a call-able raise even if I thought I was relatively strong. Seat four fires back for another 80, everyone else folds, I have a read on seat 2 putting him stronger than me, no read on seat 3, and it's 158 dollars to me pre-flop to see the hand where I'm 100% certain I'm beat pre-flop.

I'd been playing with mostly the same people at that table for about 6 hours now, and I know neither seat 2 nor 3 are blasters pre-flop. I know neither have ever made a pre-flop raise with anything less than a pocket pair, so things like big slick are off the table. Furthermore, there are 9 people at the table. I'm holding low cards, and 6 people have folded. The odds of them having folded my outs instead of seat 2 and 3's are much better.

I went on that gut feeling, even though the read was bad. They were strong, and they reacted like they were strong.

Flop comes 2 5 10 rainbow. I'm sitting on a pair of fives with a six kicker against two high pocket pairs. I check, seat 2 pushes all in for 170 more. Seat 3 calls with about 150 for his all in.

I've got them covered, but if you play poker at all, you know this is a no brainer fold. I just couldn't shake that feeling that it was the winning hand. Took me five minutes and having time called on me (time never gets called on me) for me to call, but call I did. Turn is junk, I forget, and river's a 6.

Seat 2 is AA, just like my read suggested, and Seat 3 is QQ, as my read suggested. Is it possible they could have looked at their hands with AA and QQ pre-flop and given off some unconscious signals that they were gonna lose to me? Maybe..But I really doubt it.

That's the poker example that's always freshest in my memory, but I can probably come up with another 15 or 20 instances just like it. I've learned to trust it when I know the hand is a winner. It's almost always right. Doesn't happen regularly, but when it does, whatever chips I have on the table are in there.

Additionally, I did read that wikipedia article you linked. It makes sense, and it does support CT's notion that most people who think they have some form of ESP are really just intuitive. I don't think it applies in every single case though.

[Hulkein]

I absolutely believe in it.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

Should be an interesting read for you. The short version is about a horse in Germany who was supposedly trained to do math and comprehend the German language by stomping its feet to answer German questions. Turned out the horse was not a mathematician at all, but was simply very good at detecting subtle and involuntary reactions from humans in the audience who knew the correct answer and whose body language was guiding the horse.

I do not doubt that you have a similar capacity when playing poker, and in fact I would be surprised if many good poker players didn't have such feelings. These feelings, however, are not a form of ESP, and you will not have those feelings when playing poker online.


Keep in mind that ESP refers to EXTRA sensory perception. The ability to read people can only be considered ESP if that read is being done absent of any physical characteristics being given off, even if involuntarily, but the person being read.

People who are good at reading others are usually good because of tells, subtle and mostly subconscious gestures that humans give off. Such reads are being acquired through the normal senses, mostly vision.

ESP would be something paranormal, being able to read another person's mind without using your normal senses, like if you can read someone elses mind while they're in another room or something.

What you describe in your post is definitely real, it's just not ESP.

I agree with this.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I agree with you Kranar about the intuition aspect, and perhaps the poker example was a bad one, but I'll elaborate a little.

I do work a lot off intuition at the poker table. It's what allows me to make money, but it's those odd situations that don't make any sense at all that I consider to be something more.

For instance,

I'm in seat 1 at the table in bad position (Button's across the table). I pull 5/6 of spades. This is a hand I wouldn't ever by the numbers do anything with pre-flop. But I looked at it and said "This is a winning hand." as soon as it was dealt.

I had gotten reads on two other people at the table as the hand was being dealt before I looked at my cards. The read told me they were strong. (One of these people ended up being in the hand with me. One didn't).

So I limp in for two bucks. Seat 3 raises 80 dollars, which is about 35 more than a call-able raise even if I thought I was relatively strong. Seat four fires back for another 80, everyone else folds, I have a read on seat 2 putting him stronger than me, no read on seat 3, and it's 158 dollars to me pre-flop to see the hand where I'm 100% certain I'm beat pre-flop.

I'd been playing with mostly the same people at that table for about 6 hours now, and I know neither seat 2 nor 3 are blasters pre-flop. I know neither have ever made a pre-flop raise with anything less than a pocket pair, so things like big slick are off the table. Furthermore, there are 9 people at the table. I'm holding low cards, and 6 people have folded. The odds of them having folded my outs instead of seat 2 and 3's are much better.

I went on that gut feeling, even though the read was bad. They were strong, and they reacted like they were strong.

Flop comes 2 5 10 rainbow. I'm sitting on a pair of fives with a six kicker against two high pocket pairs. I check, seat 2 pushes all in for 170 more. Seat 3 calls with about 150 for his all in.

I've got them covered, but if you play poker at all, you know this is a no brainer fold. I just couldn't shake that feeling that it was the winning hand. Took me five minutes and having time called on me (time never gets called on me) for me to call, but call I did. Turn is junk, I forget, and river's a 6.

Seat 2 is AA, just like my read suggested, and Seat 3 is QQ, as my read suggested. Is it possible they could have looked at their hands with AA and QQ pre-flop and given off some unconscious signals that they were gonna lose to me? Maybe..But I really doubt it.

That's the poker example that's always freshest in my memory, but I can probably come up with another 15 or 20 instances just like it. I've learned to trust it when I know the hand is a winner. It's almost always right. Doesn't happen regularly, but when it does, whatever chips I have on the table are in there.

Additionally, I did read that wikipedia article you linked. It makes sense, and it does support CT's notion that most people who think they have some form of ESP are really just intuitive. I don't think it applies in every single case though.

Just because you don't consciously pick up on something, doesn't mean you don't subconsciously.

My best friend growing up hated her neighbor and refused to spend time around him.. she said she couldn't pinpoint why but that "something was wrong about him" and that she wanted nothing to do with him. He turned out to be a serial child molester. Did my best friend have ESP because she somehow came to the conclusion that this was not a good guy? Doubtful. She likely synthesized a lot of little things/clues that him and the people around him and their interactions gave off, and the conclusion it led her to was strong and negative. Just because she wasn't AWARE of what was leading to her intuition doesn't mean there was nothing there.

People give off signals all the time that we take into account without consciously thinking about it. Body language, tone of voice, even things like skin color and moisture, eye movement and pupil dilation, breath, everything. Even if you're not consciously zeroing in on those things, if you're an "intuitive" individual you probably naturally pick up on at least some of those things all the time and compile them together without having to even think about it. By all means, it's a talent and not something everyone is good at, but just because you're not aware of what pieces fitting together lead to an intuitive mood doesn't mean they weren't there, and it certainly doesn't mean it is then easily attributed to ESP.

[Moist Happenings]

Just because you don't consciously pick up on something, doesn't mean you don't subconsciously.

My best friend growing up hated her neighbor and refused to spend time around him.. she said she couldn't pinpoint why but that "something was wrong about him" and that she wanted nothing to do with him. He turned out to be a serial child molester. Did my best friend have ESP because she somehow came to the conclusion that this was not a good guy? Doubtful. She likely synthesized a lot of little things/clues that him and the people around him and their interactions gave off, and the conclusion it led her to was strong and negative. Just because she wasn't AWARE of what was leading to her intuition doesn't mean there was nothing there.

People give off signals all the time that we take into account without consciously thinking about it. Body language, tone of voice, even things like skin color and moisture, eye movement and pupil dilation, breath, everything. Even if you're not consciously zeroing in on those things, if you're an "intuitive" individual you probably naturally pick up on at least some of those things all the time and compile them together without having to even think about it. By all means, it's a talent and not something everyone is good at, but just because you're not aware of what pieces fitting together lead to an intuitive mood doesn't mean they weren't there and therefore you have ESP.

I think you're missing a little bit of the point of what I was trying to convey.

I do agree that you can pick up on things intuitively to come to an unconscious conclusion that's correct.

But in the situation I detailed, there isn't anything that I could have picked up on that I hadn't. What I did pick up on was that I was beat. I was completely dead on about that. My money was all in the pot before I won. Both the other people in the hand knew they were in strong position, and I knew it too. Nobody could have seen that two cards down the line I'd suck out and win the hand against two vastly superior ones.

[Moist Happenings]

Deleted. Problem fixed itself apparently.

[Sean]

Given the stakes at casino's if people really had the ability to sense other people's hands don't you think AC, Vegas, etc. would have found a way to to do something about it?

I went to AC for my birthday with some friends and we were at Cesaers playing double attack blackjack i said outloud at the table I bet I draw a 2.. I got a 2 the guy next to me said wow what am I going to get and my friend said a 5.. and he got a 5. We chalk it up to just amazing coincidence since neither of us has the patience to count cards. Sometimes people are just lucky.

[Moist Happenings]

I'd rather be lucky than good any day, but I'm not lucky. I'm not even that good. I don't play the game, I grind it. Playing hands like that is just completely against what I do, which is why it was so difficult for me that first time.

300 bucks isn't a lot of money, but I'm the stingiest motherfucker you'll ever meet at a poker table. Takes me 20 hours to make another 300 bucks most days, and in poker you can do that in a single hand.

Maybe it's luck, maybe it's intuition, maybe it's something else. I dunno, and I probably shouldn't have used that as an example, but I have an open mind, I've had other experiences, both of my own and people close to me, and I believe there to be some form of ESP out there.

[Parkbandit]

I believe in ESP, I just feel that it's a rare ability and most people who say they have it just have intuition and really good gut reactions to things simply because they know how to "read" people.


That is how I view ESP.. just very perceptive people.

[Sean]

I'd rather be lucky than good any day, but I'm not lucky. I'm not even that good. I don't play the game, I grind it. Playing hands like that is just completely against what I do, which is why it was so difficult for me that first time.

300 bucks isn't a lot of money, but I'm the stingiest motherfucker you'll ever meet at a poker table. Takes me 20 hours to make another 300 bucks most days, and in poker you can do that in a single hand.

Maybe it's luck, maybe it's intuition, maybe it's something else. I dunno, and I probably shouldn't have used that as an example, but I have an open mind, I've had other experiences, both of my own and people close to me, and I believe there to be some form of ESP out there.

I don't believe in ESP so to be fair regardless of the example I'm going to chalk it upto chance.

If you watch people play blackjack the number of individual who hit no 17+ is actually pretty high despite it not necessarily being good for the table or prudent for the bettor. If you ask them why you'll probably hear varations on "I had a feeling", "Why not?", etc. and if it works out they look like geniuses if it fails well they lose the hand and move on. If you had lost that hand on the river instead of winning would we be having this conversation?

Anyway, since you're a poker player then I'm sure you've seen the phenomon of some new player coming to a table (usually friendly stakes) and winning hands because they stayed in on hands that a veteran player would have mucked. Do you chalk it upto ESP or luck when that happens?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I think you're missing a little bit of the point of what I was trying to convey.

I do agree that you can pick up on things intuitively to come to an unconscious conclusion that's correct.

But in the situation I detailed, there isn't anything that I could have picked up on that I hadn't. What I did pick up on was that I was beat. I was completely dead on about that. My money was all in the pot before I won. Both the other people in the hand knew they were in strong position, and I knew it too. Nobody could have seen that two cards down the line I'd suck out and win the hand against two vastly superior ones.

I'm not missing a point-- you're missing mine.

Just because you aren't aware of what you may have picked up on that led for you to have such a strong feeling, doesn't mean you actually didn't pick up on something. You do not have to be consciously aware of your brain filing away your perceptions for it to be doing so. It still has NOTHING to do with ESP.

[Moist Happenings]

I get what you're saying, Nikki, and Sean both.

To Sean - Once I can see it being a fluke. After 20 or 30 times though it starts feeling like something else. I've seen and I've been that guy at the table who sits and pulls quads the first hand. I can differentiate between the two things though.

To Nikki - I'll concede the point that it's possible I was perceiving something. I just can't see what it is with poker structured the way it is. It's possible 20 or 30 times the dealer flashed a card that I picked up on subconsciously. It's possible I read subtle reactions of the other people's hand's outs being folded. I just don't think it's likely.

I have no explanation for the cat thing though, or numerous other occurrences, so I'm gonna remain firm in my belief. I do hear what you're saying, though.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

To Nikki - I'll concede the point that it's possible I was perceiving something. I just can't see what it is with poker structured the way it is. It's possible 20 or 30 times the dealer flashed a card that I picked up on subconsciously. It's possible I read subtle reactions of the other people's hand's outs being folded. I just don't think it's likely.

I think it's more likely than ESP, put it that way.

:shrug:

[CrystalTears]

Ya know I never hear of rich, powerful, or famous people claiming to have ESP. It's always these unknown fruit loops. Maybe it's just better to not be clairvoyant.

[Moist Happenings]

I think it's more likely than ESP, put it that way.

:shrug:

It's a valid line of thinking, at least. I can respect it.


Now that we've settled that, let's move the conversation back to TRL's thread if there's anything more to say. I just created this thread to add a poll. Didn't mean to hijack hers.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=38388

[Hulkein]

I don't think people have ESP strong enough to pinpoint major disasters or events like 9/11. I do think people can have ESP between family members and close friends. Two examples:

My mom's dad had a heart attack around 15 years ago. My mom and her brother who at the time lived in Florida had not spoken in over a month. He had no reason to know anything was wrong since this was not an ongoing health problem and no one had spoken to him in days. As my mom was fearing that her father was going to die from this she was thinking "Oh God what is Michael going to do" or something along those lines and a minute later he called the house and asked "what's wrong with dad" without saying anything prior or hearing anything prior. They had always joked that they never lost when they played pinochle together for this reason.

My mom is also scarily accurate with calling when someone in our family is going to die. I was always a skeptic until she pretty much won me over with her accuracy. She isn't just right because of crying wolf, either.

It is tough to explain and I doubt many people believe this anecdotal stuff until they witness it first hand but I figured I'd explain why I believe in something along the lines of ESP.

[Hulkein]

PS. Is anyone else shocked that someone with the username 'Swami71' voted 'Yes'? :)

[Sean of the Thread]

BOOMER VOTES FOR ESP(n) AND THE BUCCANEERS!

[Tisket]

They burned bitches smarter than you for that as being witches, you know.

Translation: "Omg. You are stoopid. You are dumb for not agreeing with everything I say. I know I'm right, even though I know nothing about the subject, but my feelings about it matter more than anything else. And I feel it MUST be true so it is. And because my friend knows someone that read someone's blog somewhere that mentioned something about it. I win, so stfu, you idiot moron. God, your stupid. You're such a stupid idiot."

Yawn.

[Kitsun]

Begrudgingly, I voted Yes. While I think the people on TV are quacks but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that ESP is possible. We've got billions of people on the planet and there are things science can't explain(yet)... shit can happen, right?

[Tisket]

See, I can respect someone who has an agnostic point of view about this subject. Claims that there is scientific proof for it's existence are ridiculous though.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Begrudgingly, I voted Yes. While I think the people on TV are quacks but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that ESP is possible. We've got billions of people on the planet and there are things science can't explain(yet)... shit can happen, right?

That's why I voted "no opinion."

I think there's a possibility it does exist, I just can't say say that yes I think it does exist. I don't know one way or the other but the burden of proof lies on proving it exists to me.

I'm not hardcore skeptical about everything, it's just that unless I have a personal experience that can't be scientifically explained away to my satisfaction, I prefer to have hard data to support beliefs about this stuff.

[Drunken Durfin]

I foresaw the starting of this thread.

[Clove]

That's why I voted "no opinion."

I think there's a possibility it does exist, I just can't say say that yes I think it does exist. I don't know one way or the other but the burden of proof lies on proving it exists to me.

I'm not hardcore skeptical about everything, it's just that unless I have a personal experience that can't be scientifically explained away to my satisfaction, I prefer to have hard data to support beliefs about this stuff.I don't believe in ESP for the same reason I don't believe in UFO's. An Unidentified Flying Object by definition can't be an alien spacecraft... because you've fucking identified it. I don't believe you perceive something without senses either.

That being said, I do believe in the growing body of evidence that we make intuitive leaps in comprehension and that our brains are meant to work this way.


A lot o' people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.

[Ignot]

We've got billions of people on the planet and there are things science can't explain(yet)... shit can happen, right?

You got that right. I never would of thought to run into two threads about ESP......on a text based RPing game forum.

[Danical]

I attended a lecture with a professor from Cal Tech who was the editor/contributor/producer/somethingsomething of Skeptic Magazine.

It was a great lecture.

My girlfriend believes in ESP and moreover that her mom is psychic via reading tea leaves. She has absolutely no proof and it drives me fucking insane.