Groups & Hiding

[DaCapn]

I find it a pain the way hiding works in groups so I pretty much gave up group hunting in GS with ambushing rogues. Today I just said "what the hell" and posted a request for some changes in the developer's corner on the officials.

I just want to encourage people to discuss it here and especially there (because in this case, that's the one that "matters"). So please, if you think this is a good idea, post something on the officials.

Read my post here: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=2&message=5324
Check the topic here: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=2

Here's a re-posting of my officials post for your convenience:

Here's a suggestion to better the hunting experience of rogues: Allow grouping to work more seamlessly with hiding.

Ambushing rogues tend to solo-hunt more because they disrupt open casting (or at least can get nailed by it). Also it's irritating for people to have to deal with waiting for the rogue to hide and stalk and give a signal that they're ready (maybe this makes people less interested in hunting with them). And all around, it's just irritating.

With the "recent" pushes to make this game more group oriented, I feel this was left out. There was the cman changes a while back that gave some group hunting advantages and there's Sunfist which emphasizes the group effort as well.

More specifically, this is what I'm asking for:
- If you GROUP with someone and you hide, you remain grouped but hidden.
- If you are revealed from hiding (by one effect or another), you remain grouped but unhidden.
- Allow to GROUP with people when hiding (as opposed to stalking).

It seems to me (from the vantage point of an outsider) that it would be a matter of changing GROUP to being hide-unconditional and making STALK less like grouping.

Of course I have no idea about how this should be implemented, but there's really a lot of options. You could make it such that when you use GROUP and you hide, the whole group can see that you're hidden (if you're in a group, presumably you have some kind of unity in your actions). Maybe even some group messaging when you're out of hide RT (Character signals to your group from the shadows that he is ready for action) and that the character has joined in hiding (Character slips in behind your group) since it is a consensual action. For STALK, nothing would need to change except possibly losing group spell benefits (after all, you're only following them).

[CrystalTears]

Yeah, this has been argued ad nauseum for ages now. Where have been in the last decade? Asleep in the shadows? This is part of the cry for fixes to the hiding mechanics.

[DaCapn]

What other hiding fixes are people crying for?

[Bokertal]

I'm totally with you.

[The Ponzzz]

The whole hiding system needs to be changed. Grouping needs to be allowed, the 3 second, "I R NINJA" aspect of it needs to be ditched, terrain needs to take account to how well you can hide, each room description should take into account to where one can hide, if outside, day/night should be a factor, more spells should help hiding, the CMAN Dust Shroud should work more than one hide and cause a room dirtkick affect and hiding in heavier armor needs to be a lot harder to impossible.

[Adequate Picker]

I agreed. It has been that as long as i can remember and always why i hated to group hunt. They attack attack attack, i amb critter head, hide, stalk leader, amb critter head, hide, stalk leader. Pain in the ass. Got a little better when the Wizard came out but before the Wiz and we had no front end...hell what did we use...Gmud? I cant remember for sure.

I dont group hunt at all now since i use a bow. Damn impossible.

[DaCapn]

Personally, I feel like some of your suggestions are pretty crippling to hide. I'd put some serious consideration into swapping out combat skills for my main and just deleting my other rogue if those came into play. I started a new "rogue dev fantasy"/"rogues vs. pures" thread here:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=850105#post850105

I started the hiding tangent by asking but we should probably try to stay OT here and keep "poor neglected squares" talk elsewhere since this affects non-squares. I feel like this is more grouping mechanics and less hiding mechanics so anyone who wants to discuss hiding more specifically can talk there (I know I will).

[The Ponzzz]

Personally, I feel like some of your suggestions are pretty crippling to hide. I'd put some serious consideration into swapping out combat skills for my main and just deleting my other rogue if those came into play. I started a new "rogue dev fantasy"/"rogues vs. pures" thread here:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=850105#post850105

I started the hiding tangent by asking but we should probably try to stay OT here and keep "poor neglected squares" talk elsewhere since this affects non-squares. I feel like this is more grouping mechanics and less hiding mechanics so anyone who wants to discuss hiding more specifically can talk there (I know I will).

Not sure if you mean mine or not. But if hiding does get an overhaul one day, the whole instant invisible aspect of it needs to go. Hiding in a forest in the middle of the night should be easier than hiding in a small room with lots of light.

[thefarmer]

Not sure if you mean mine or not. But if hiding does get an overhaul one day, the whole instant invisible aspect of it needs to go. Hiding in a forest in the middle of the night should be easier than hiding in a small room with lots of light.


Slightly off topic, but I agree.

Also, since someone mentioned Grimswarm camps, hiding shouldn't be a viable hunting strategy 100% of the time either.

[droit]

Also, since someone mentioned Grimswarm camps, hiding shouldn't be a viable hunting strategy 100% of the time either.

Maybe I'm missing the context here, but why not?

[The Ponzzz]

I think what he means is, it shouldn't be the only thing rogues/rangers rely on.

[thefarmer]

I think what he means is, it shouldn't be the only thing rogues/rangers rely on.

That.

Just because a rogue/ranger/etc can't hide in a Grimswarm camp, doesn't mean hiding needs fixing.

[Gan]

I'm with you.

When I hunt in groups, somebody usually winds up dying.

I hunt solo with my rogue, or he doesnt hunt.

[DaCapn]

I think what he means is, it shouldn't be the only thing rogues/rangers rely on.

The realism you're suggesting would totally cripple ambushing (maybe excluding ranged users) as a combat tactic and make such rogues only able to hunt in areas that have sparse spawning. If doing that somehow opened up the doors for all kinds of fantastic interesting options, I'd consider it a good thing. Otherwise, it would make ambushing rogues almost totally unusable in combat.

As a very current and truthful example, I was out underhunting by 10 levels with a rogue that's 55 to rank in subdue (worthless) in greater ice giants. I was without spells and got a little hurt but a giant spawned with a claidhmore so I decided to stay so I could take the claidhmore. It was in an area where you can't hide. I had to sweep it and hack at it's leg 4-5 times to leg it so it wouldn't instantly stand up, then I open-ambushed for the head with a handaxe far too many times (10+) with 200-250 endrolls doing 20 points of damage until I nicked it to death. Somewhere in the middle of all of this I had to take a break, run back to town and get healed because I would get the shit kicked out of me every time a snow crone of frozen corpse would show up. Because I couldn't risk a gas cloud or the corpses attacking me which gave the giant time to recover in some cases. I'm lucky that my axe happened to be blessed for dealing with the corpses, otherwise I would have had to give up. In combat-related training the character looked like this: 1.75x CM, 1x PT, 2x OHE, 1x Shield, 2x Dodge, 80 Armor (MBP).

Granted I ran into the situation with low stamina, but that's the type of crap that happens if you lose the ability to hide. You get the floor mopped with you while underhunting by 10 levels!

If you totally destroy hiding by making it "real-world realistic" (in a game with wizards), you need to accompany it with a wealth of amazing options so they're not just piss-poor warriors... Not that rogues don't need some re-working to give them more options in the first place. Hiding isn't realistic because the way it is makes it possible to use it. It's already not that good to begin with.

[DaCapn]

Just because a rogue/ranger/etc can't hide in a Grimswarm camp, doesn't mean hiding needs fixing.

I can do it. If I couldn't... Jesus... I don't know... Sunfist would be impossible. As-is it's pretty close. Maybe if I fixskills to some kind of claidh/ewave/dodge-happy build it would be equally miserable but that's probably the only other way for it to be possible.

By contrast with my wizards: I have one training plan, they hunt whever the fuck I feel like at the time (excluding anything that's about 10 levels over their heads). I don't think I've ever been able to go 10 over my head with my rogue. If I had full wizard/cleric/ranger spellup and a pocket wizard hasting me I could try it but it would still be a pain in the ass because of how grouping works with hiding.

[thefarmer]

The realism you're suggesting would totally cripple ambushing (maybe excluding ranged users) as a combat tactic and make such rogues only able to hunt in areas that have sparse spawning.

Granted I ran into the situation with low stamina, but that's the type of crap that happens if you lose the ability to hide. You get the floor mopped with you while underhunting by 10 levels!.

1) You're the only person who's brought up using "realism" as a guide. Nobody else has mentioned it.

2) Lrn2playarogue. A 55 rogue shouldn't feel that inept when unable to hide/ambush.



I can do it. If I couldn't... Jesus... I don't know... Sunfist would be impossible. As-is it's pretty close. Maybe if I fixskills to some kind of claidh/ewave/dodge-happy build it would be equally miserable but that's probably the only other way for it to be possible.

By contrast with my wizards: I have one training plan, they hunt whever the fuck I feel like at the time (excluding anything that's about 10 levels over their heads). I don't think I've ever been able to go 10 over my head with my rogue. If I had full wizard/cleric/ranger spellup and a pocket wizard hasting me I could try it but it would still be a pain in the ass because of how grouping works with hiding.

3) The fact that YOU can't figure out how to hunt (with or without hiding) doesn't mean other can't, and do it successfully.

4) See 3

[The Ponzzz]

I'm not saying it would cripple hiding. I think it would help it. Hiding in a dark, crowded area should offer bonuses and be easier. I just think there should also be things that hinder hiding.

Lighter armors should also offer bonuses to hiding. Chain armor should be the last class a person should be able to hide in though, as hiding in plate armor is just over the top. And 3 seconds of hiding and the whole unhide/hide trick when spotted by someone searching just needs to go.

[DaCapn]

1) You're the only person who's brought up using "realism" as a guide. Nobody else has mentioned it.

Sorry I thought that some of his points here were inspired by realism:


The whole hiding system needs to be changed. Grouping needs to be allowed, the 3 second, "I R NINJA" aspect of it needs to be ditched, terrain needs to take account to how well you can hide, each room description should take into account to where one can hide, if outside, day/night should be a factor, more spells should help hiding, the CMAN Dust Shroud should work more than one hide and cause a room dirtkick affect and hiding in heavier armor needs to be a lot harder to impossible.

He doesn't say "realism" here but 4 of his 6 points initial points seemed to be referencing realism and hiding being non-realistic. Basically, that's what I've been talking about this whole time.


2) Lrn2playarogue. A 55 rogue shouldn't feel that inept when unable to hide/ambush

How about telling me how you would have handled that situation? If I'm missing something here by 55, I need to be told.

[Deathravin]

I'm not saying it would cripple hiding. I think it would help it. Hiding in a dark, crowded area should offer bonuses and be easier. I just think there should also be things that hinder hiding.

Lighter armors should also offer bonuses to hiding. Chain armor should be the last class a person should be able to hide in though, as hiding in plate armor is just over the top. And 3 seconds of hiding and the whole unhide/hide trick when spotted by someone searching just needs to go.

If we're going with realism over GSism... I don't see why it would be difficult to hide in an MBP. Certainly a full suit of plate would be very difficult with all the clanking and clacking. But MBP is just a single plate of armor that can be easily padded.

As for the areas being easier or harder to hide in. Absolutely. There should be places where when you walk through, you're already hidden without even having to type it. And other places that its next to impossible (can you say indoors? What is this hide & seek? Where can I hide in the east tower other than behind the desk? and snowswept treeless areas. There are places it would be impossible to hide.)

If you're going to be that 'real' about it, might as well make all worn items affect hiding. Wearing a bright yellow cloak would make it nearly impossible. But a dark green outfit would make it abundantly easier.

I hunted with somebody for quite a few levels. I would hide, stalk, hoot, and he would go. Not sure if we had any problems at all, it just took a little while. And while the unhidden person is looting and looking for the next mob (peer west etc), my 3 second timer is counting down and give a little hoot.

[CrystalTears]

I'm more on board with fixing hiding to work with groups, as well as the hiding mechanics regarding the environment. However I don't agree with putting armor as hindrances, as that's realism that we just don't need. If that's the case, then make not being able to swim in plate either.

There's some things you need to suspend your belief with, and I believe armor is one of them.

[The Ponzzz]

If we're going with realism over GSism... I don't see why it would be difficult to hide in an MBP. Certainly a full suit of plate would be very difficult with all the clanking and clacking. But MBP is just a single plate of armor that can be easily padded.

As for the areas being easier or harder to hide in. Absolutely. There should be places where when you walk through, you're already hidden without even having to type it. And other places that its next to impossible (can you say indoors? What is this hide & seek? Where can I hide in the east tower other than behind the desk? and snowswept treeless areas. There are places it would be impossible to hide.)

If you're going to be that 'real' about it, might as well make all worn items affect hiding. Wearing a bright yellow cloak would make it nearly impossible. But a dark green outfit would make it abundantly easier.

I hunted with somebody for quite a few levels. I would hide, stalk, hoot, and he would go. Not sure if we had any problems at all, it just took a little while. And while the unhidden person is looting and looking for the next mob (peer west etc), my 3 second timer is counting down and give a little hoot.


I'm not talking realism at all. I am simply stating what other RPGs incorperate into the hiding/stealth mechanics. Most my ideas are to help hiding, not hinder. Sure, some of it reads as realism, but I'm more or less talking about being able to blend into the shadows.

As for MBP hiding, you do realize you are wearing chain in ever other spot. Not just a plate over the torso. Chain is going to make a lot of noise and kill mobility.

As for the rest of your guys' post, yeah, grouping is really the key factor to get fixed.

[Fallen]

I always liked the idea of using others in your group as a screen, then those with a certain skill threshold in hiding or whatever could lunge out from behind them with a partial/full ambush bonus. Peoples CM and MoC skills would also provide a penalty/bonus.

This wouldn't help protect the rogue after the attack, but it would be a command they could use without hiding.

[BigWorm]

I so wish they would fix hiding and groups, but from what Ildran told me at Simucon, it's nowhere on the horizon because the hiding and group systems are old as fuck and no body wants to fuck with them.

[LadyLaphrael]

I always liked the idea of using others in your group as a screen, then those with a certain skill threshold in hiding or whatever could lunge out from behind them with a partial/full ambush bonus. Peoples CM and MoC skills would also provide a penalty/bonus.

This wouldn't help protect the rogue after the attack, but it would be a command they could use without hiding.

I posted my thoughts on that exact concept on the officials. Being able to circle around behind while the rest of your group is pulling the focus and land full ambush strength attacks with an added RT penalty and with having the critter being able to still have a counter-roll against your movement. I would suddenly feel more useful in a group scenario without having to play sweep/kneebash-factory.

[Fallen]

Exactly. All these ideas are by no means new, nor would it require a full re-write of the hiding code. A few mechanic bones thrown to make hiders more group friendly would be all it would take to make the game much more multi-class hunting friendly.

[DaCapn]

I so wish they would fix hiding and groups, but from what Ildran told me at Simucon, it's nowhere on the horizon because the hiding and group systems are old as fuck and no body wants to fuck with them.

That's kind of a typical notion isn't it? "I don't want to touch that old buggy code! Lets just release a new feature." I think it would be kind of nice if there was like a full year of no new releases and no pet-project tweaks such as those enchanting changes, the lockinging changes, and the cman changes; and the only thing worked on would be fixing old shit that people have been annoyed with for years.

[CrystalTears]

That's kind of a typical notion isn't it? "I don't want to touch that old buggy code! Lets just release a new feature." I think it would be kind of nice if there was like a full year of no new releases and no pet-project tweaks such as those enchanting changes, the lockinging changes, and the cman changes; and the only thing worked on would be fixing old shit that people have been annoyed with for years.That would mean doing something right, which would cause their heads to cave in.

[nub]

That's kind of a typical notion isn't it? "I don't want to touch that old buggy code! Lets just release a new feature." I think it would be kind of nice if there was like a full year of no new releases and no pet-project tweaks such as those enchanting changes, the lockinging changes, and the cman changes; and the only thing worked on would be fixing old shit that people have been annoyed with for years.

Or maybe changing some "fixes" back to how they used to be.

[DaCapn]

For those who didn't watch the officials, the "that code is too old, hard, broken, and confusing to touch" message was pretty much implied in Ildran's response.



IOI: 4

>So, I know the code for hiding is as old as the hills (or at least the game) but I wouldn't think putting in group checks would be hard.

It's not so much that it's old as that it's pervasive. A huge portion of the game depends on the current implementation of grouping, so changing it is an immense amount of work. We definitely agree that the current implementation isn't good, especially for Rogues or others that hunt from hiding, it's just that the opportunity cost for changing it is unfortunately really high.

- Ildran

[CrystalTears]

For those who didn't watch the officials, the "that code is too old, hard, broken, and confusing to touch" message was pretty much implied in Ildran's response.

BigWorm had said that already.


I so wish they would fix hiding and groups, but from what Ildran told me at Simucon, it's nowhere on the horizon because the hiding and group systems are old as fuck and no body wants to fuck with them.

Guess you needed to hear it from the horse's mouth.