Voln Fu and RT in full plate

[Sanstrian]

Back in the day, you could use Voln fu with 0 ranks in armor while wearing full plate and your RT wasn't affected. Is this still the case?

[thefarmer]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Voln_fu

[Sanstrian]

Thanks. So, I'm tired, and to clarify, that means it makes your MB shit to try and wear armor way beyond your skill?

[AestheticDeath]

Right, you must have the full training for your armor, and be unencumbered. Nothing in your hands helps etc..

[Sanstrian]

Thanks guys.

[Izzy]

Right, you must have the full training for your armor, and be unencumbered. Nothing in your hands helps etc..

Encumbrance doesn't affect RT, and only marginally affects MB. My ranger loses at most ~20mb if I manage to fill all my containers with boxes. Trying to voln fu something way beyond your MB does rape your RT though.

[AestheticDeath]

Encumbrance definitely affects RT, it just added as much as 5 seconds to my throw.
And it definitely affects MB. Mine just went from 41 to -15.

You might not see much difference with a couple filled containers. But that's also probably not much weight.

[Adequate Picker]

I have never seen anything (unless it was something magical) add RT to any Voln Fu attack but it does reduce your MB as you add weight. You might get the stray 5 second attack instead of 4 (as your AS can go up and down depending on which room you are in) but your attack is 99% at 4 secs.

[AestheticDeath]

Your wrong. But whatever.

Go pick up some coins, you will see a difference, even if you don't normally.

[m444w]

You're both right to a certain point. The RT factor is a function of how bad you fail the MB attack (throw has the lowest of the MB, and the highest threshold, which is why you saw more RT for it).

So, if you're encumbered enough, your MB drops.
If you're encumbered ridiculously your MB drops enough to where you fail an attack extraordinarily, and you gain extra RT from that. (I don't know the endroll thresholds, and I don't care enough to research them).

It's like if a level 20 rogue tries to sweep a capped grandmaster, he trips himself and gets even more RT that normal because he failed so terribly.

Izzy already said it already... and I forgot about that annoying "feature" where if you fail bad enough you kill yourself.

[Izzy]

Encumbrance definitely affects RT, it just added as much as 5 seconds to my throw.
And it definitely affects MB. Mine just went from 41 to -15.

You might not see much difference with a couple filled containers. But that's also probably not much weight.

Throw I don't know about, because I don't use it. But I guarantee that my RT for kick/punch absolutely never changes. This, coupled with the fact that ranged weaponry also is not affected by encumbrance, makes ranged/fu my favorite combo ever (because, as stated, i always have the same RT irrespective of how encumbered I am and what attack mode I'm using).

Well ok, I guess I can haste it down. But it never goes up.

I'll test my MB tonight, but it has never dropped so significantly that I had to stop hunting. Maybe you just suck at fu, meng.

Edit: yeah, didn't read m444w's post. He covered it well.

[Riltus]

Thanks. So, I'm tired, and to clarify, that means it makes your MB shit to try and wear armor way beyond your skill?

A warrior, wearing full plate, with 140 ranks armor will have the same reduction to MB as a wizard with 0 ranks of armor training. The reduction to MB is equal to the armor action penalty, irrespective of training. More correctly, the armor action penalty is a negative value that is added to MB.

The action penalty for full plate is -35, period, and no amount of training will change that.

Being undertrained for armor will NOT increase your fu RT nor will being encumbered.

The highest AsG that you can wear without any action penalty is full leather.

Mark

[AestheticDeath]

throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: 40 vs MB: 14 = 26 -- Gain advantage!
A Bit Stiff! Moved into position.
THT 67, d100 roll: 48, modified: 74
Opponent breaks your hold.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>get chain
You remove some tightly linked rolaren chainmail from in the xxx disk.

>wear chain
You work your way into some tightly linked rolaren chainmail.
Roundtime: 14 sec.
>
A velnalin trots in!
>throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: 26 vs MB: 11 = 15 -- Gain advantage!
Awkward! But manage to gain position.
THT 67, d100 roll: 53, modified: 68
Opponent breaks your hold.
Roundtime: 12 sec.


>throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: 45 vs MB: 19 = 26 -- Gain advantage!
A Bit Stiff! Moved into position.
THT 67, d100 roll: 12, modified: 38
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>
xxx just gave you 100000 coins which you quickly pocket.
>throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: -10 vs MB: 19 = -29 -- Lose advantage!
(Fumble! @ 2) rolled: 2
Off balance! Nearly tripped.
Roundtime: 7 sec.




>punch hob
You attempt to punch a hobgoblin!
MB: 40 vs MB: 19 = 21 -- Gain advantage!
THT 84, d100 roll: 24, modified: 45
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>
xxx just gave you 100000 coins which you quickly pocket.
>punch hob
You attempt to punch a hobgoblin!
MB: -15 vs MB: 19 = -34 -- Lose advantage!
THT 84, d100 roll: 72, modified: 38
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 8 sec.




>kick hob
You attempt to kick a hobgoblin!
MB: 40 vs MB: 30 = 10 -- Gain advantage!
Awkward! But manage to gain position.
THT 75, d100 roll: 34, modified: 44
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>
xxx just gave you 100000 coins which you quickly pocket.
>kick hob
You attempt to kick a hobgoblin!
MB: -15 vs MB: 30 = -45 -- Lose advantage!
THT 75, d100 roll: 6, modified: -39
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 10 sec.


>punch kob
You attempt to punch a kobold!
MB: 40 vs MB: 14 = 26 -- Gain advantage!
THT 94, d100 roll: 81, modified: 107
and hits for 4 points of damage!
with a rabbit punch to the body.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

>get chain
You remove some tightly linked rolaren chainmail from in the xxx disk.
>wear cha
You work your way into some tightly linked rolaren chainmail.
Roundtime: 14 sec.

>punch kob
You attempt to punch a kobold!
MB: 26 vs MB: 8 = 18 -- Gain advantage!
THT 94, d100 roll: 60, modified: 78
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 12 sec.


throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: 40 vs MB: 14 = 26 -- Gain advantage!
A Bit Stiff! Moved into position.
THT 67, d100 roll: 48, modified: 74
Opponent breaks your hold.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>get chain
You remove some tightly linked rolaren chainmail from in the xxx disk.

>wear chain
You work your way into some tightly linked rolaren chainmail.
Roundtime: 14 sec.

>throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: 26 vs MB: 11 = 15 -- Gain advantage!
Awkward! But manage to gain position.
THT 67, d100 roll: 53, modified: 68
Opponent breaks your hold.
Roundtime: 12 sec.


>throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: 45 vs MB: 19 = 26 -- Gain advantage!
A Bit Stiff! Moved into position.
THT 67, d100 roll: 12, modified: 38
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>
xxx just gave you 100000 coins which you quickly pocket.
>throw rolt
You attempt to throw a rolton!
MB: -10 vs MB: 19 = -29 -- Lose advantage!
(Fumble! @ 2) rolled: 2
Off balance! Nearly tripped.
Roundtime: 7 sec.


Now I repeat, armor and encumbrance both affect MB and RT. It may not be enough for you to give a damn. And I can't test for the armor training with my characters. But everything I said is correct.




xxx attempts to throw a hobgoblin!
MB: 235 vs MB: 13 = 222 -- Gain advantage!
Blink! Disappeared and then reappeared behind opponent.
THT 65, d100 roll: 43, modified: 265
... +4 extra hits. Foe thrown to ground and stunned in a nice move.
>
xxx attempts to throw a hobgoblin!
MB: 225 vs MB: 16 = 209 -- Gain advantage!
Blinding speed! Moved behind opponent.
THT 65, d100 roll: 65, modified: 274
... +8 extra hits. Hip throw sends foe tumbling.
... 15 points of damage!
The hobgoblin stumbles forward, off balance.

This guy has 30 ranks in armor and normally wears LBP, and hauberk changed his MB 10 points.

Mine changed by 14 with the same armor. So armor training must come into play as well somewhere. My guy has no armor training at all.

[Izzy]

All of your examples for encumbrance lowered your MB below the target's MB. That's what's causing the RT, not the encumbrance itself. Like m444w said.

You attempt to kick a tusked ursian!
MB: 304 vs MB: 121 = 183 -- Gain advantage!
Movement is a blur! Outflanked opponent.
THT 58, d100 roll: 64, modified: 247
and hits for 37 points of damage!
... +8 extra hits. Flying kick to body knocks foe down.
Foe is stunned and loses parry.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>enc
You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.
>


with 30k in coins:

You attempt to kick a tusked ursian!
MB: 282 vs MB: 116 = 166 -- Gain advantage!
Hard to follow! Fantastic position.
THT 58, d100 roll: 21, modified: 187
and hits for 25 points of damage!
... +5 extra hits. Well placed kick to foot forces foe to parry down!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>
A heavy, wild musk rises from a tusked ursian's thick, mangy fur.
>enc
You find it nearly impossible to make any fast moves, and you ache all over from the load you are trying to haul around. Hope you're in a safe place.

As you can see, absolutely no difference in RT. Also, only a 22pt drop in MB going from completely unencumbered to extremely encumbered...which is really nothing. Encumbrance is basically a non-issue once you have a decent MB.

[Riltus]

Now I repeat, armor and encumbrance both affect MB and RT. It may not be enough for you to give a damn. And I can't test for the armor training with my characters. But everything I said is correct.

This guy has 30 ranks in armor and normally wears LBP, and hauberk changed his MB 10 points.

Mine changed by 14 with the same armor. So armor training must come into play as well somewhere. My guy has no armor training at all.

As the others have said it has nothing to do with armor or encumbrance, but everything to do with MB vs MB.

There is absolutely no penalty to MB for undertraining in armor. I repeat, the only reduction is equal to the action penalty. This applies to all characters regardless of training. Up to AsG 6 (full leather) the action penalty is 0. Reinforced leather (AsG 7) has an action penalty of -5 and the penalties increase until AsG 20, full plate, with an action penalty of -35.

Neither armor nor encumbrance cause an increase to RT.

This character has 30 ranks of armor training.

This is without armor and unencumbered. Noticed for all of these attacks the RT remains a constant 4 sec.

You attempt to kick a kobold!
MB: 245 vs MB: 9 = 236 -- Gain advantage!
Blink! Disappeared and then reappeared behind opponent.
THT 85, d100 roll: 18, modified: 254
and hits for 84 points of damage!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

You work your way into some brigandine armor. The MB decreases by 12 because the brig action penalty is -12.

You attempt to kick a kobold!
MB: 233 vs MB: 13 = 220 -- Gain advantage!
Blink! Disappeared and then reappeared behind opponent.
THT 85, d100 roll: 53, modified: 273
and hits for 94 points of damage!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

This is with full plate and no encumbrance. Full plate action penalty is -35. With no armor the MB was 245, with full plate it is reduced to 210 a difference of 35 exactly.

You attempt to kick a velnalin!
MB: 210 vs MB: 20 = 190 -- Gain advantage!
Movement is a blur! Outflanked opponent.
THT 77, d100 roll: 88, modified: 278
and hits for 67 points of damage!
The velnalin collapses to the ground, emits a final sigh, and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

This next kick is with full plate and over 100000 silver

You have 100188 coins with you.
>encumbrance
You are so weighed down with junk you can barely move. You might be able to make it to your locker by summoning all your strength and willpower, but surviving much else would not be a good bet.

You attempt to kick a kobold!
MB: 151 vs MB: 11 = 140 -- Gain advantage!
Expert maneuver! Perfect position.
THT 85, d100 roll: 50, modified: 190
and hits for 52 points of damage!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

Even with only 30 ranks of armor training while wearing full plate and massively encumbered, there is NO increase in RT. There is a total MB reduction of 94 from the first hit. (35 from full plate and 59 from encumbrance) but absolutely no RT increase.

Mark

[Izzy]

Winnarz.

[AestheticDeath]

I will grant you the encumbrance and RT. Wasn't paying attention to my number going below the targets.

But the armor penalties stand so far. Your static numbers aren't proven. How do you explain the other guy getting a smaller penalty on hauberk than you did on brig? And how do you explain my penalty and his being different with the same armor?

[Riltus]

I will grant you the encumbrance and RT. Wasn't paying attention to my number going below the targets.

But the armor penalties stand so far. Your static numbers aren't proven. How do you explain the other guy getting a smaller penalty on hauberk than you did on brig? And how do you explain my penalty and his being different with the same armor?

I can't explain it because I wasn't there to see what each of you did. I have, in years past, tested every AsG with multiple characters from halfling wizards to giantman warriors and in each and every instance the MB penalty was always equal to the action penalty, regardless of armor training.

Rolaren is a magic metal and is lighter than standard weight (generally). There may have been encumbrance issues that you didn't account for. Lighter than standard weight armor is affected by racial modifiers. Are you both the same race? Are you certain that neither of you were encumbered before each of the attacks? Did you change rooms during any of the tests. Room lighting conditions effect MB.

It is likely that this is double chain equivalent armor with an action penalty of -14. That would account for your results. I have no way of knowing whether the other character switched rooms between results, was encumbered or was wearing armor for the first result. Without this information it is impossible to accurately explain the results.

Mark

[AestheticDeath]

Ouch. OK Mark you win. I assessed my armor, and somehow I was recalling that armor as being hauberk when it was not.

It was in fact double chain.

As for the other guys results. I don't know. We didn't move rooms. He might have had the LBP on, though I don't recall. What's the movement penalty on LBP? Difference of four?