Just fixskilled from sword/board into a claid user. [Archive]

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 09:40 AM

I almost exclusively play my mid-30s Empath now, but I've been wanting to try out claids on my low 20s warrior. I rarely play her, so it's not a huge deal if I screw her up, but I fixskilled her from a traditional sword & board set to the following:

2.5x Armor Use (roughly)
2x THW
2x Brawling
6 ranks of MOC
30 ranks of Ambush
1x Perception
2x Dodging
2x Combat Maneuvers
2x PT
1x Survival
A few ranks of climbing, a few ranks of swimming.

---

So I fixskilled into that build, and her AS with a 0x claid is 210 or so. With cman surge, it's 222. Her DS, completely unspelled, while in an offensive stance is 96--and I'm using 5x brig.

Her roundtime, completely unencumbered, is 6. She's not wearing too heavy armor, and her DEX/AGI are both 96 with 18 bonus each, as a giant. (I didn't roll this character well.)

I'm currently unlearning her wspec1 to falchions, unlearning block mastery, unlearning weapon bonding. (Forgot to set those before the fixskill..)

I presume I should focus on parry master, toughness, wspec, combat mobility? Can anyone explain the 6 second roundtime or the 9 second ambush time?

Not sure how I'm going to be able to deal with the low DS. Maybe I'll drop $1200 on a 10x DB item!

Thanks for any and all input.

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 09:58 AM

Imo, if you're using a claid, don't bother ambushing, especially as a giant.

With the combined agi and dex bonus of 36, you're only getting a 2 second reduction in RT, hence the 6 second rt with a claid. If I were you, I'd consider going with a mattock or maul. The base speed on those are one second less than a claid.

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 10:01 AM

Oh, and for Cman's, parry mastery should be the very first thing you go for. I then went for wspec so I could get weapon bonding.

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 10:02 AM

I wasn't planning on getting ambush, but instead focusing on MOC. Someone on Psinet convinced me otherwise--Foogly, I think? Not 100% sure. I don't know how the formula works, but I'm guessing once the dex/agi are maxed out, the claidhmore RT will drop to 5..

Suppa Hobbit Mage

08-26-2008, 10:13 AM

I think with my warrior I'm 2x dodge, 2x cman, 60 ranks moc, 2x edged, 2x shield, 2x armor, 2x fitness, 1x perception. I swing a bastard axe two handed most the time but I'm also 68 now and have good redux and am in plate.

I recall when I was younger my DS was terrible, so I 3x'd armor until I hit I think 90 ranks for MBP to get the df lower. At the least, get into a chain shirt -- only need 40 ranks for it and it is a HUGE difference to leathers.

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 10:19 AM

You'll see the RT drop another second when your combined agility and dex bonuses reach 38.

And Foogly is a halfling I believe, they receive big bonuses to dex. His rt reduction can reach 5 seconds whereas a giant will only ever get to 3.

I have two 2-handed warriors, a giant and an elf. I couldn't stand to use the claid with my giant because it took too long. I gave him the mattock, got the required amount of ambush, and he is just as effective as the claid using elf.

thefarmer

08-26-2008, 10:38 AM

Be prepared to spend big coins for nice twohanders

Izzy

08-26-2008, 10:43 AM

You'll see the RT drop another second when your combined agility and dex bonuses reach 38.

And Foogly is a halfling I believe, they receive big bonuses to dex. His rt reduction can reach 5 seconds whereas a giant will only ever get to 3.

Lies. Enhancives make giants able to be as fast as halflings..thus making them even more superior. Possibly(definitely) a HUGE investment, but very possible. With a combined agi/dex of 80 (20/20 base + 20/20 enhancives) a giant could ambush with a claid in 6 I think. Don't have all the numbers available to me, but I'm pretty sure it can be done.

Not to mention halflings can't even match the giant's strength bonus with MAXED strength enhancives. loolz @ halflings. FTL. Enhancives >> halflings.

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 10:54 AM

Thanks for all the input! Are mauls weighted naturally, like claids? Or do they have another advantage?

Izzy

08-26-2008, 10:58 AM

Thanks for all the input! Are mauls weighted naturally, like claids? Or do they have another advantage?

They only do crush damage, whereas claids also do slash. Crush has lower crit thresholds than slash does on head/neck attacks. Bascially, if you can hit them on the head, you're more likely to kill them if you do crush damage. Thereby if you only do crush damage, you're more likely to get a crit kill on a particular crit rank. Also, mauls are faster and more easily aimed.

I dunno how much the claid weighting offests the crit threshold differences between slash/crush..but the AS you'll get from the maul (most likely) will also help.

thefarmer

08-26-2008, 10:59 AM

They only do crush damage, whereas claids also do slash. Crush has lower crit thresholds than slash does on head/neck attacks. Bascially, if you can hit them on the head, you're more likely to kill them if you do crush damage. Thereby if you only do crush damage, you're more likely to get a crit kill on a particular crit rank. Also, mauls are faster and more easily aimed.

I dunno how much the claid weighting offests the crit threshold differences between slash/crush..but the AS you'll get from the maul (most likely) will also help.

>cman help precision
Skill Name: Precision
Mnemonic: precision
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: None.
Other Requirements: Requires a weapon in right hand.
Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Wizards, Clerics, Empaths, Sorcerers, Rangers, Bards, Savants, Monks, Paladins.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 4 (Semis) 6 (Pures) 8
Rank 2: (Squares) 6 (Semis) 9 (Pures) 12
Description: Precision allows you to specify the damage type of a weapon (crushing, slashing, or puncture) when used in combat. Up to 30 weapon types can be specified, and your preference will be stored and automatic, can also be cleared or reset. At one rank, your preference will be used 75% of the time, else the weapon has its normal damage chances. At two ranks, the weapon will always deliver your preferred type of damage. Precision does not function with aimed (ambush) or ranged attacks.

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 11:09 AM

Lies. Enhancives make giants able to be as fast as halflings..thus making them even more superior. Possibly(definitely) a HUGE investment, but very possible. With a combined agi/dex of 80 (20/20 base + 20/20 enhancives) a giant could ambush with a claid in 6 I think. Don't have all the numbers available to me, but I'm pretty sure it can be done.

Not to mention halflings can't even match the giant's strength bonus with MAXED strength enhancives. loolz @ halflings. FTL. Enhancives >> halflings.

What I said wasn't a lie....you're just adding enhancives into it.

And, it's not like Halflings can't use enhancives for their agi/dex...

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 11:10 AM

>cman help precision
Skill Name: Precision
Mnemonic: precision
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: None.
Other Requirements: Requires a weapon in right hand.
Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Wizards, Clerics, Empaths, Sorcerers, Rangers, Bards, Savants, Monks, Paladins.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 4 (Semis) 6 (Pures) 8
Rank 2: (Squares) 6 (Semis) 9 (Pures) 12
Description: Precision allows you to specify the damage type of a weapon (crushing, slashing, or puncture) when used in combat. Up to 30 weapon types can be specified, and your preference will be stored and automatic, can also be cleared or reset. At one rank, your preference will be used 75% of the time, else the weapon has its normal damage chances. At two ranks, the weapon will always deliver your preferred type of damage. Precision does not function with aimed (ambush) or ranged attacks.

And doesn't work with aimed attacks.

Izzy

08-26-2008, 11:29 AM

except..

>cman help precision
Skill Name: Precision
Mnemonic: precision
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: None.
Other Requirements: Requires a weapon in right hand.
Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Wizards, Clerics, Empaths, Sorcerers, Rangers, Bards, Savants, Monks, Paladins.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 4 (Semis) 6 (Pures) 8
Rank 2: (Squares) 6 (Semis) 9 (Pures) 12
Description: Precision allows you to specify the damage type of a weapon (crushing, slashing, or puncture) when used in combat. Up to 30 weapon types can be specified, and your preference will be stored and automatic, can also be cleared or reset. At one rank, your preference will be used 75% of the time, else the weapon has its normal damage chances. At two ranks, the weapon will always deliver your preferred type of damage. Precision does not function with aimed (ambush) or ranged attacks.

Izzy

08-26-2008, 11:32 AM

What I said wasn't a lie....you're just adding enhancives into it.
Lie = not true: you said that "a giant will only ever get to 3". If you had said "a giant will only ever get to 3 barring any enhancives" it wouldn't have been a lie.

And, it's not like Halflings can't use enhancives for their agi/dex...

And that would change things how? They can't swing any faster.

Suppa Hobbit Mage

08-26-2008, 11:51 AM

And doesn't work with aimed attacks.

I open ambush with a bastard axe, does it work with open ambushing? Does anyone know?

Ulkov

08-26-2008, 11:58 AM

Where is Khariz at? this thread would make him wet.

But he ain't, and this is my post so:

I don't use THW, but I've watched Mad, Foog, and goddamnear every other warrior in Elanthia use THW. From what I've seen, Claid..maul...they all pretty much pop a skull. In the younger years, definitely go for the faster swing.

30 ranks of ambush couldn't hurt, but if you're looking more into MOC, go for it (see the multitudes of Berserk+MOC logs covering this forum if you really need to see why).

Khariz

08-26-2008, 12:07 PM

I don't feel like I have anything to add.

Foogly is my protoge, Ashliana. If he said it, his word is gold. He understands how Giantmen differ from Halflings because of me, and us comparing notes on how things function different. He actually consulted me during his discussions with you.

As a Giantman, with max AGIDEX bonuses, I swing a claid at 5 and ambush at 8. It doesn't get any better, barring enhansives. But also...who cares? People make a big deal out of RT, but when you are swinging a claid at something you aren't going to complaing about 5 vs 6 or 7 vs 8 RT. I'd rather have one more second of RT and ten times the chance of death.

Of course...I defray the differences by using claid weighted mattocks, and weighted mauls and whatnot, to have both the speed and the weighting, but thats not something everyone can do.

And no, SHM, you cannot aim attacks from open or hiding, and get the benefit of precision. What people fail to understand in this discussion about claidhmores though, is that you aren't comparing a maul crush vs neck to a rgeatsword slash vs neck. You are comparing a maul crush vs neck to a greatsword with 40 points of crit wieghting slashing a neck. About 75% of the time, the weighting will push the slash critical above the bottom line for a death. Slashing on claidhmores just doesn't matter.

Anything else?

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 12:10 PM

Lie = not true: you said that "a giant will only ever get to 3". If you had said "a giant will only ever get to 3 barring any enhancives" it wouldn't have been a lie.

You = douche. True.

I was talking about the fucking baseline. Should I include a hasting wizard that tags along too? Perhaps a bard singing Tonis? or how about 5 million other possible scenarios?

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 12:14 PM

But also...who cares? People make a big deal out of RT, but when you are swinging a claid at something you aren't going to complaing about 5 vs 6 or 7 vs 8 RT. I'd rather have one more second of RT and ten times the chance of death.

It's not so easy when you're leveling up..walking around in brig, with no redux. It makes a difference. Sure, once you get redux, are in plate, with your stats maxed..it becomes a lot easier.

Khariz

08-26-2008, 12:14 PM

Gonna add some stuff anyway:

I know Foogly discussed ambush ranks with you. If you think you want to aim the claid sometimes, for instant headshot deaths or to leg some buggers (both of which I found useful, as I didn't care about 3 more secs RT for an instant death), you really need 25 to 30 ranks of ambush. After that you hit a plateauing effect though.

I don't remember the exact numbers but lets say that at 30 ranks of ambush you have a 70% accuracy rating with a claidhmore, well to get to 75%, you'd need soemthing like 90 ranks. It's just not worth the investment. I did the calculations with fixskills, I just can't find my spreadsheet.

So yeah, 30 ranks of ambush is all a twohander ever needs to open ambush well. You'll peak at say 65-70% with a claid and like 85ish% with a maul. You have a decent shot at hitting what you mean to, and even when you miss it's devastating.

One last thing:

Do not underestimate the power of a maul vs claidhmore. While claidhmores are superior by virtue of their weighting only, the maul is the most amazing all purpose weapon in the game in my opinion. They are light, fast, and have the best Damage Factor against just about anything you'll care about besides a lance (which is heavy and slow, and a polearm).

a 4x blessable maul is so good, that it's still worth using at cap as a weapon against any creature in the game. I can mstrike kill a troll king, a spectral triton defender, a water elemental...in one hit (three hits from the mstrike) with a maul. The damage factor is just that awesome.

Khariz

08-26-2008, 12:15 PM

It's not so easy when you're leveling up..walking around in brig, with no redux. It makes a difference. Sure, once you get redux, are in plate, with your stats maxed..it becomes a lot easier.

see...I never found that true as a claid/maul user. The creature was either not alive, or severely stunned after the first hit. The RT was meaningless.

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 01:17 PM

A relevant question is--if my DS is abysmal, how do I take on more than one mob at a time? Even one on one, with a 6-sec RT, I'm going to get hit. My empath and warrior are on the same account, so I won't be able to clean her up, either, which makes making any amount of money on her difficult as it'll all be going out in Empath tips.

Guess it's time to transfer her to my other account..

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 01:26 PM

see...I never found that true as a claid/maul user. The creature was either not alive, or severely stunned after the first hit. The RT was meaningless.

True, but you gotta account for swarms and/or something else walking in on you.

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 01:37 PM

Or mobs that break stun constantly. :/

Izzy

08-26-2008, 01:44 PM

I open ambush with a bastard axe, does it work with open ambushing? Does anyone know?

It says, very specifically, that it doesn't work with aimed(ambush) attacks. In order to aim, you have to type ambush. It doesn't matter whether or not you're hiding. It's the same type of attack.

Martaigne

08-26-2008, 01:48 PM

Izzy

08-26-2008, 01:48 PM

You = douche. True.

I was talking about the fucking baseline. Should I include a hasting wizard that tags along too? Perhaps a bard singing Tonis? or how about 5 million other possible scenarios?

You need to chillax, sir. I was just pointing out that the statement you made was not entirely correct. I'm not calling you a liar.

Mostly my post was to share my opinion that giants are vastly superior to halflings, especially now that they can overcome the speed issues. The only advantage halflings have now is their inherant TD (which is definitely significant.)

Again, I wasn't attacking you, no need to get so defensive.

NocturnalRob

08-26-2008, 01:49 PM

Again, I wasn't attacking you, no need to get so defensive.

PC IS VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!

Some Rogue

08-26-2008, 01:56 PM

PC IS VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!!

Saying I'm lying is calling me a liar...:P

NocturnalRob

08-26-2008, 01:57 PM

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!!

Saying I'm lying is calling me a liar...:P

awww...let's duke it out in the Thunderdome!!

Two men enter, one man leaves...

Master Blaster!!

Oh man, i'm totally watching that movie when i get home

Danical

08-26-2008, 02:02 PM

I open ambush with a bastard axe, does it work with open ambushing? Does anyone know?

It does not work with any form of aimed attack.

Danical

08-26-2008, 02:03 PM

Also I'd be 2x Dodge minimum as a THW warrior.

Um, I'd also reroll though :(

NocturnalRob

08-26-2008, 02:07 PM

Um, I'd also reroll though :(

yeah...this would be step one.

you're 22? 23? that's like...an easy month of playing. you're gonna enjoy playing more in the long-run if you just suck it up and reroll. plus, using your fixskills this early FTL.

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 02:25 PM

Why would I reroll, though? You haven't seen my stats, except for the dex/agi. Either way, I'm not that invested in my warrior that I'd redo that much, and all my work in Voln simply to get better stats way down the road, when I'll probably have gotten bored of her and stuck with my empath.

Danical

08-26-2008, 02:27 PM

I guess it really depends on how long you plan on playing.

Warrior efficiency and survivability decline steadily past level 50 when the TD gap begins to widen; TD is a warrior's bane.

Thus Halfling and Dwarf warriors are full of equal parts win, lol, and gold.

Khariz

08-26-2008, 02:37 PM

Ashliana

08-26-2008, 02:49 PM

I am grateful for all of your inputs. Thank you.

If she transfers the empath over to a second account, she can mitigate that gap A LOT!

You mean with blues and the like? Didn't think it would make that much of a difference, long-term. I meant more for the healing. Though my empath is an offensive, Sunfist-hunting caster, and not a pure healer.

Khariz

08-26-2008, 02:53 PM

I am grateful for all of your inputs. Thank you.

You mean with blues and the like? Didn't think it would make that much of a difference, long-term. I meant more for the healing. Though my empath is an offensive, Sunfist-hunting caster, and not a pure healer.

Yeah, blues. I have a cleric and a wizard on my alternate account and with blues and silvers/brights/brills, my TD isn't that bad at cap.

I have zero TD enhansiver items and my TD with Minor Elem and Minor Sprit spells is 387 at cap. The only thing I worry about is ethereal triton sentry casting at me. Nothing else can ward me high enough to make two shits of a difference. If I was to boost my TD with enhansives or other TD boosting Items, I could completely insulate myself from everything but Players and Sentry.