A Return to the Cold War?

[ClydeR]

US and Poland agree shield deal

The US and Poland have agreed a preliminary deal on plans for the controversial US defence shield, Warsaw has announced.

The plan would see the US base 10 missile interceptors in Poland in exchange for help strengthening Polish defences, said PM Donald Tusk.

The scheme is highly controversial and has been opposed by Russia.

More... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm)

I'm going to do a poll with this question. "Can the United States prevent a return to the Cold War?"

[Stanley Burrell]

No, the United States cannot prevent the Cold War.

[Stanley Burrell]

...Or the Cola-Wars, mind you.

[Gan]

Your poll says "present" not "prevent".

You might want to clarify that a little more.

[Khariz]

No. If russia wants to get it on again...here we go!

[Gan]

And... anything's possible with Putin calling the shots in Russia.

[Stanley Burrell]

And... anything's possible with Putin calling the shots in Russia.

Word, yo:

When Georgian rebels attack the Kremlin, you know he's going after Serbian dissidents' thermonuclear stockpiles in Easter Island.

[Stanley Burrell]

Gffgfgffgfhttmb.

[Stanley Burrell]

By the way, in case anyone wasn't watching the news Georgia provoked this, hands down. At least Russia is going after people who committed acts of terrorism against Russia.

You don't fuck around with Russia.

[Stanley Burrell]

I guess Bush doesn't remember that live grenade either.

[Exit]

By the way, in case anyone wasn't watching the news Georgia provoked this, hands down. At least Russia is going after people who committed acts of terrorism against Russia.

You don't fuck around with Russia.



yup

[ClydeR]

Your collective conclusion is too bad. It's going to be hard to refight the Cold War at the same time we are fighting radical Islam, which Certain People say will be the defining struggle of our time. I hope this Georgia business hasn't caused anyone to forget about the defining struggle of our time.




Gffgfgffgfhttmb.

You walk the fine line between genius and insanity. I pray you do not stumble.


By the way, in case anyone wasn't watching the news Georgia provoked this, hands down. At least Russia is going after people who committed acts of terrorism against Russia.

If you really believe that Russia's actions in Georgia were defensive, which means Russia is not trying to reestablish the Soviet Union and take over the world, then it would seem that the decision of whether to return to the Cold War is in our hands. That is, if Russia acted within its rights, then there is nothing forcing the United States to respond belligerently. That leaves us with the power to prevent a return to the Cold War.

In case any of you don't remember, the Cold War was not fun.

[waywardgs]

Putin is a mobbed-up Russian thug. Dangerous for his region? Yes. Dangerous to the US? Not really, relatively speaking.

Edit: poll: is ClydeR a real person or a cleverly programed bot?

[Stanley Burrell]

If you really believe that Russia's actions in Georgia were defensive, which means Russia is not trying to reestablish the Soviet Union and take over the world

Who wouldn't believe that? Georgia commits an act of terror against a Russian mission, heinous death follows, Russia moves in. Thermodynamics. I don't believe any superpower doesn't take the opportunity of being mobile to take over the world. That's why they're superpowers. And not Buddhists.

We have about as much business being in Georgia as we do in Iraq. At least the second we make any show of strength. Seriously: The world has this one twisted, Georgia instigated this shit to the fullest -- I would never expect the United States, China, Israel or Russia to idly stand by in the face of terrorism. I know at least Russia, China and Israel will go after who the fuck it is that's murdering innocents within their interests and lighting the powder keg, though.

[Stanley Burrell]

Edit: poll: is ClydeR a real person or a cleverly programed bot?

He's just silly.

[Asha]

I've stopped watching the news because of this.
Bush administration scares the shit out of me as it is. Head to head with Putin though, and I'll start reinforcing my cellar and stocking up on underpants.

[Stanley Burrell]

Actually, as far as going blow-for-blow with shitheads who absolutely instigated crap, crap meaning murder through terror, Israel has been concise and by far the most accurate eye-for-an-eye nation. I still believe Russia to somewhat adequately, for a nuclear superpower, go after only those who have threatened it with first strikes. China hasn't really done too much across its borders in reciprocity like Russia has.

If only that grenade had gone off.

[Stanley Burrell]

I've stopped watching the news because of this.
Bush administration scares the shit out of me as it is. Head to head with Putin though, and I'll start reinforcing my cellar and stocking up on underpants.

After a certain point, it gets ridiculous.

We can blow up the world 3 times.

We can blow up the world 30 times.

:wow:

[waywardgs]

Actually, as far as going blow-for-blow with shitheads who absolutely instigated crap, crap meaning murder through terror, Israel has been concise and by far the most accurate eye-for-an-eye nation.

I believe the ratio is close to 10 palestinian deaths for each israeli death.

[sst]

I believe the ratio is close to 10 palestinian deaths for each israeli death.

source?

[sst]

Putin is a mobbed-up Russian thug. Dangerous for his region? Yes. Dangerous to the US? Not really, relatively speaking

You know very little about Putin, he is far more than a mobbed up russian thug.

[Khariz]

Note: I have no idea if this source is legit, but:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/ap-fig1.gif

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/ap-report.html

[ClydeR]

We have about as much business being in Georgia as we do in Iraq.

Both McCain and Obama scare me on the issue of Georgia. They both want NATO to admit Georgia. That's crazy. Just crazy.

If NATO admits Georgia and Russia decides to (or needs to, depending on your point of view) invade Georgia again, then we will be obligated by treaty to go to war with Russia. Then we'll have to decide whether or not to honor our treaty obligation. If we honor the treaty and go to war with Russia, then we and Russia will have committed mutual suicide. If we don't honor our treaty and don't go to war with Russia, then NATO will be forever ruined. In such an event, I would vote for not committing suicide, and I think Russia would realize that most Americans would agree with me, which would cause Russia to discount the probability that American would honor its NATO treaty obligation.

You know who else is crazy? Georgian President Saakashvili. What in the world was he thinking? Did he honestly think this his military, even if it was trained by American Green Berets (who, of course, were in Georgia solely to fight the Al Qaeda infesting Georgia's mountains), could possibly under any imaginable scenario stand a chance in a fight with Russia's military? I'm in favor of having friendly relations with Georgia, but we shouldn't base it on a relationship with Saakashvili. He has proven that his judgment is deficient.

We have little or no national interest in Georgia, unlike Iraq. Iraq has oil, and oil is our national interest.

So says Clyde.

[Kembal]

...the liberal person behind ClydeR has just spoken.

But there is a major oil pipeline in Georgia.

With all that said, putting Georgia in NATO is a bad idea. A very very bad idea.

[ClydeR]

...the liberal person behind ClydeR has just spoken.

You insult me, sir. :)

I don't know if my position would be considered liberal or conservative. But I think it's right. When this first happened, I unthinkingly assumed President Bush was right to want Georgia to have NATO membership. McCain and Obama also blindly parroted Bush. But now that I've studied the issue more, I realize I was wrong, and I disappointingly realize that McCain and Obama didn't know any more about the issue that I did.

It may be that everybody misunderstood President Bush's position. Bush was in favor of NATO membership for Georgia before this incident. I don't know if he still supports it. McCain wants Georgia to have NATO membership right now, even while it is still occupied by Russia. Obama, whose position is not so clear, wants Georgia to return to a path toward NATO membership, whatever that means.

Besides all that, it is a traditional conservative position that the United States should not be overly entangled with international organizations, such as NATO. It's beginning to look like the traditional conservative position is the correct one. All the more reason to support my candidate Chuck Baldwin for president. He opposes America's continued membership in NATO.

[Paradii]

No need to worry about this little conflict. America going to war against other white people is sooooooooo 1940's.

[Sean of the Thread]

First off let me say AMERICA FUCK YEAH!


Second.. Putin is the man. He's no idiot... he's a fucking political and sinister genius. To underestimate him is retarded.

[Khariz]

First off let me say AMERICA FUCK YEAH!


Second.. Putin is the man. He's no idiot... he's a fucking political and sinister genius. To underestimate him is retarded.

QFT. Going up against this mother fucking is going to be hell on earth. Let's hope we never see the actual need.

[Back]

Ronnie must be rolling over in his grave. He fixed it and now someone else wants to re-fuck it up?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

WORLD POLICE TO SAVE THE MOTHER FUCKING DAY, YEAH!

[Mabus]

QFT. Going up against this mother fucking is going to be hell on earth. Let's hope we never see the actual need.
I hope we would get the Georgian president to keep dogging us for "lack of support", while we ship crates full of anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles back with their troops from Iraq. That way we get plausible deniability, and they can defend themselves a little longer.

For the Iraq War/Against the Iraq War. That does not matter. At least they did send some troops to aid us when we called. We have to stand with the democracies that are willing to stand with us.

The UN will do nothing, as Russia is a Security Council Permanent Member. Europe will talk, but do nothing, as they get a lot of their fuel (mainly natural gas) from Russia.

We should also step up Ukraine becoming a NATO member. At least that could stick something back at the Russians that we could use as a bargaining chip.

I feel for the people of Georgia.

[Kembal]

The majority of the people of Ukraine are not interested in joining NATO. I think it polls at 59 percent against, and 22 percent for.

Gotta remember, eastern Ukraine is pro-Russian, and western Ukraine is pro-West. They're more concerned with keeping the country together.

[Gan]

I think its time the rest of the world man-up and quit calling for the US to be the world police. We're not going to be everyone's big brother when they bite off more than they can chew.

[crb]

I think its time the rest of the world man-up and quit calling for the US to be the world police. We're not going to be everyone's big brother when they bite off more than they can chew.
With great power comes great responsibility. We're the world police because no one else can be. No one else has the military resources and reach that we do.

Or, no one could be the world police. The UN is as impotent as the Galactic Senate while Naboo is being occupied. (NATO works because there is no debate involved, the treaty requires mutual protection). The point being, without world police, there is no one to stop the world's badguys. Any country that covets his neighbor could invade his neighbor and only have to worry about defeating his neighbor.

Do you know what happens when you have that sort of situation? History prior to 1944. Only now we have more efficient ways of killing. So instead of a 100 year war and other almost non-stop land wars that plaqued most of the developed world up until the end of WW2 with spearman and knights and catapults giving way to muskets and canons, you'd have bombs and artillery and cruise missiles and nukes.

Letting civilization devolve into land wars all over again is NOT good for us, or anyone on this planet, and having a dominant superpower prevents that.

[Mabus]

The majority of the people of Ukraine are not interested in joining NATO. I think it polls at 59 percent against, and 22 percent for.
There have been major calls for it, and I would imagine that those numbers may have changed since the Georgian incidents.


Gotta remember, eastern Ukraine is pro-Russian, and western Ukraine is pro-West. They're more concerned with keeping the country together.
Some in Russia are already calling to seize Crimea from the Ukraine. The Russian naval base lease at Sevastopol also runs out in 2017, with the Ukrainians already saying they have no plans to renew it.

It would take Germany and France to push for the NATO MAP for the Ukraine before we could see progress. The next meeting for the membership petition is in December. Let's hope the Russians do not act before then.

[sst]

Some in Russia are already calling to seize Crimea from the Ukraine. The Russian naval base lease at Sevastopol also runs out in 2017, with the Ukrainians already saying they have no plans to renew it.



They have done more than that. They stated that if Russia uses any ships that are station in Ukrainian ports, those ships will not be allowed back in

[Kembal]

With great power comes great responsibility. We're the world police because no one else can be. No one else has the military resources and reach that we do.

What military resources and reach? In case you've forgotten, our troops are currently tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia is exactly able to pull this off because of our previous disastrous foriegn policy decisions. (Right now, I give credit to Bush and Rice with how they're handling this. Especially Rice.)

[sst]

Kembal, there are over 2,000,000 members of the US military
140,000 are in Iraq, and about 30,000 in Afghanistan
that leaves 1,830,000 not deployed.

[Kembal]

Not all of those are combat troops.
Not all of those are in the Army or Marines.
Not all of those units are at full readiness.

Need I go on?

[sst]

Kembal, 1, there are enough in the rear to mount a offensive or defensive posture until those in combat zones can be disengaged, and with the ability of the US military to move and quickly its more possible than not.

If you're talking about the navy and the air force not making much of a impact... I'm sorry but they probably could deal with most of the issues without the ground forces in the first place, due to the stealth technologies and countermeasure ability's they possess gaining air superiority would not be difficult. With air superiority comes the decimation of ground units in short order.

A "ready" unit is a luxury, if boots on the ground are needed they can fill the role.

[Khariz]

Yeah, I was just gonna say: Who cares if the available units aren't Marines or Army. Between the Navy and Air Force, we could destroy much of russia with non-nuclear weapons WITHOUT the boots on the ground. Glad you said something sst, because I didn't get the point he was trying to make.

[sst]

Yeah, I was just gonna say: Who cares if the available units aren't Marines or Army. Between the Navy and Air Force, we could destroy much of russia with non-nuclear weapons WITHOUT the boots on the ground. Glad you said something sst, because I didn't get the point he was trying to make.

its the defeatist mentality that goes along with this whole "Georgia was asking for it crap" Leftist stupidity

[Kembal]

...

The infinite stupidity of this is mind-boggling.

Let's say a naval ship or submarine launches cruise missiles at Russian targets.

Why would Russian commanders automatically assume that those were conventional missiles? Remember, it's in the air, they don't know where's it going to hit right away. They don't know what type of missile it is. They know the U.S. has nuclear capability. And you're in a shooting war.

What would you have the U.S. military do in such a situation if the Russians did it to us? Assume it's nuclear missiles and fire in response, or hope the Russians will play (relatively) nice and fire only conventional missiles?

Same goes for bombs being dropped by the Air Force.

[sst]

who said anything about cruise missiles?

The navy has these things called aircraft carriers.

When the bombs start a falling, Russia will know when they go a landing if they are nukes or not.

It all goes back to the fact that we will NOT get into a war with them and will be at a perpetual stalemate.

[Nieninque]

...

The infinite stupidity of this is mind-boggling.


Dont talk military tactics with Dave, it's utterly pointless.
He has a Phd in military history, teaches tactics to military colleges and has a hotline to the president.

[Kembal]

It all goes back to the fact that we will NOT get into a war with them and will be at a perpetual stalemate.

And if we offer Georgia or Ukraine NATO membership and then Russia attacks them? Then what?

[Mabus]

And if we offer Georgia or Ukraine NATO membership and then Russia attacks them? Then what?
If they are a member we fufill our treaty obligations and defend them, as we would want from other members if we are attacked.

We are already pushing at the Russians, though we publicly state we are not, by the Poland/US Missile Defense agreement which seems to include a "mutual defense" clause.

Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski stated the new missile defense agreement includes, "...a commitment for both states to come to each other's assistance in case of military threats".

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said, "Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict,"

So we are standing with the free and democratic nations that have chosen the west, rather then continued Russian meddling and dominance. The aggression by the Russians in Georgia is only speeding this welcome change. I have no doubt any current poll of the people in Ukraine would also so a shift towards the belief that the Russian aggression must not be allowed to stand.

[ClydeR]

Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski stated the new missile defense agreement includes, "...a commitment for both states to come to each other's assistance in case of military threats".

I guess it's okay as long as America is in charge of any joint operations. The Poles don't need to be put in charge of anything. They build train tunnels too small for trains, truck tunnels too low for trucks and roads with sections that don't meet (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2965078.html). The thought the Poles having control over a powerful weapon is pretty scary.

[Gelston]

Yeah, I was just gonna say: Who cares if the available units aren't Marines or Army. Between the Navy and Air Force, we could destroy much of russia with non-nuclear weapons WITHOUT the boots on the ground. Glad you said something sst, because I didn't get the point he was trying to make.

You do realize that they have the ability to shoot down shit loads of our aircraft right? Even the Serbians shot down a F-117 before. Imagine with RUSSIA could do. They aren't a backwards middle eastern country, they are a world power. There would actually be air-to-air engagements, alot, in this.

[Sean of the Thread]

What Gelston says is 100% true but let's also remember that F-117s are so shitty they shoot themselves down sometimes.

And of course keep in mind what the Serbs used to shoot it down with. Ruskie equipment. Even tho a pellet rifle could take a F-117 down.

[sst]

and at that time the f-117 was already 10-15 year old technology

[Gelston]

The Russians aren't a push over as you seem to think man. It wouldn't be a simple quick Air Victory. It would fucking suck.

[sst]

You would be surprised Gelston.

[Gelston]

I have no doubt we'd take air superiority. But it would be a one day thing like in Iraq. It might take a month or longer. And we'd lose pilots. Not to mention the sheer shitload of SAMs they use, which although we can take them out, they'd still do some damage.