Disheartened.

[Elvenlady]

It's hard enough having to gather rare ingredients but attitudes like this take all the pleasure out of alchemy for me and quite frankly, pissed me off today.

Phaythe says, "Can you go grummage ingredients somewhere else."

I take great care when walking around the Basalt Flats not to disrupt others hunting and go out of my way to help with spells etc. Given the VERY limited places that fire and golden moonstones can be found, what else are we supposed to do?

[Some Rogue]

Considering I've never even seen that person on Teras..tell them to gtfo.

And I have some more essence of fire I can give you. I just haven't seen you in awhile.

[Elvenlady]

She'll be around Teras for a while since she's so close to mastering I can almost smell it!

You are a darling for keeping the fire for me :heart:

[Allereli]

I'm absolutely shocked that person would say that.

[Asha]

I don't really see the big deal

[Some Rogue]

The only thing this person is probably worried about is the swarming. But Basalt Flats swarms bad with one person...one more isn't gonna make a difference.

And hell, the second person being there means help is close by if you need it hehe.

[Elvenlady]

I don't really see the big deal

Rohese does NOT "grummage", as well you know! :sad:

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Tell them to fuck off!

They don't own the hunting area or get to decide who uses it.

[NocturnalRob]

Tell them to fuck off!

They don't own the hunting area or get to decide who uses it.

yeah, basically that. i mean, wtf do they expect? Either ignore them or tell them to fuck off. Or come get me and I'll sweep/stun/sleep/lullabye/subdue them until they realize the error of their ways.

They fail to realize that the sooner you get all your fire/g moonstones, the sooner you leave the flats.

[That Jay]

I think that Fire Cats and Fire Rats drop plenty of Essence of Fire.

[Allereli]

I think that Fire Cats and Fire Rats drop plenty of Essence of Fire.

then you haven't hunted the flats.

Also, the 4 per hundred or so that you get from cats (rats don't drop them) is nothing when you need as many as 72 fires per task.

[zhelas]

then you haven't hunted the flats.

Also, the 4 per hundred or so that you get from cats (rats don't drop them) is nothing when you need as many as 72 fires per task.

Makes me cringe to think I have this to look for when or if I decided to start Alchemy.

[Elvenlady]

I tried fire cats and fire guardians but as Allerelli says, the drop rate is nothing compared to the flats. Plus golden moonstones are only available on Teras as far as I'm aware.

[Allereli]

Makes me cringe to think I have this to look for when or if I decided to start Alchemy.

Which is exactly why people working alchemy take it so hard when people complain about them being in "their" hunting grounds. It's hard and frustrating enough to actually do the work, task after task, where making each item is a struggle, then you have people giving you grief and it's the opposite of helpful.

[Elvenlady]

Fortunately, the vast majority of people are extremely supportive and generous when it comes to helping you through the torture that is alchemy. Without that, I'm sure most, like myself, would have given up long before now.

[Zarli]

Dont let an idiot bring you down. I personally gave up on alchemy, I dont have the time or patience for it but I did enough to know what is involved and how difficult it is so I help out however I can by saving stuff for people I know that are working on it.

[DaCapn]

Lock-Fucking-Mastery

Greetings from the rogue guild you bunch of nancies.

[Allereli]

Lock-Fucking-Mastery

Greetings from the rogue guild you bunch of nancies.

According to everyone who has done both, alchemy is much harder, plus you guys get good xp from picking boxes.

[Zarli]

uh, I do lock mastery, Rank 40 right now. Alchemy is much harder, please. Not to say LM isn't horrible, it is, but not as.

[Elvenlady]

Agreed, I've done both and trust me ... alchemy is way harder!

[Some Rogue]

plus you guys get good xp from picking boxes.

What does that have to do with anything?


uh, I do lock mastery, Rank 40 right now. Alchemy is much harder, please. Not to say LM isn't horrible, it is, but not as.

And how long has LM been out? How long did those 40 ranks take?

[DaCapn]

Yeah... you bunch of... nancies.

[Allereli]

What does that have to do with anything?

Unless you want to drag out mastering to take about three years, later stages of alchemy usually means dropping all like-level hunting in order to search for components.

In your search for traps, you can easily stay fried from the hundreds of boxes you go through.

The traps you need can be found on any number of creatures. Do you know how many creatures drop sprite hairs? Two, and good luck mastering without about a hundred to two hundred of them. Plus lock mastery you need what, two reps per task? so at a 40% success rate you need five boxes that you can get hunting whatever you want to.

Try 12 channel reps in the cauldrons anytime during ranks 59-63 using the lesser luck recipe. You need to gather:

12 sprite hairs (dropped from two creatures about 2 or 3% of the time),
12 green malachite stones (not powdered, must be found or bought),
12 t'ayanad crystals (about 1500-2k each, or also must be found, or made from the more expensive n'ayanads),
24 ground tkaro root (foraging time, or purchased for 500 each, plus 25 seconds to grind each without haste),
24 luckbloom blossom (more foraging),
12 powdered white pearls (found + 25 sec each grinding time, or bought for 5k each),
and of course 12 trinket oils

So after you gather all that up, you go to the cauldrons. There are 4 processes you can fail during, boil (20 sec each attempt), simmer (20 sec), infuse (15 sec) and channel (30 sec + 2 spirit and risk of spirit death if you're not paying attention).

So after all that time, you're not likely to hunt for a while because you're low on spirit, in more ways than one, and sometimes you're just stuck in there waiting if you keep missing channels. Leaving a rep means losing all the stuff you've just put into the cauldron.

I'm not saying lock mastery doesn't deserve its reputation, but I'd say many more people quit alchemy or refuse to do it because of the frustration.

[Zarli]

And how long has LM been out? How long did those 40 ranks take?

Honestly, I can't base how long I take at doing it with how hard it is since I dont do it consistantly, I'm basing it on the stress it gives me and the actual work involved. See, I'm picking boxes anyway.. so except in the tasks where I having to do stuff like contest, making stuff etc, it's stuff I would be doing regardless.

Things like making wedges make my job easier since it allows me to open boxes that I may not be able to otherwise, therefore helping more customers. So in that respect as well, it's not as hard and tedious as alchemy.

Believe me though, I'm not saying LM isn't hard, it is without a doubt. Very time consuming, hard to get ranks etc. I just dont think it is as hard as alchemy.

[Sweets]

I would find alchemy infinitely more rewarding if we got better experience for it.

[Allereli]

I would find alchemy infinitely more rewarding if we got better experience for it.

It's a guild skill, it won't happen. Rogues get xp from the boxes, not the reps.

[CrystalTears]

Plus lock mastery you need what, two reps per task? so at a 40% success rate you need five boxes that you can get hunting whatever you want to.
I stopped reading this crap when I read this. Two reps my ass.

[Allereli]

I stopped reading this crap when I read this. Two reps my ass.

ok, then please share how many reps per task in lfm for trap extraction

[Some Rogue]

And finding the exact trap you need is random. You might go a dozen hunts and not see some kinds...

[Allereli]

And finding the exact trap you need is random. You might go a dozen hunts and not see some kinds...

which is why you team up with others just like alchemists do to get stuff. I have about 40 boxes waiting for someone to get the ranks to use them.

[Zarli]

very true, plus even if you find the trap you need you dont always succeed in extracting it. So then the process of finding that trap starts over and you just hope you get it out the next time you actually come across it.

[Allereli]

very true, plus even if you find the trap you need you dont always succeed in extracting it. So then the process of finding that trap starts over and you just hope you get it out the next time you actually come across it.

which is why I accounted for a 40% success rate

[DaCapn]

I really only meant to play around when I started calling people nancies but anyway...

The exp for boxes isn't that great. A lot of the time, you may need to use lores to get the box anyway which destroys your exp. Comparing exp from picking boxes and exp from alchemy is not a good apples-to-apples comparison anyway. Comparing the exp you get for turning in LM ranks, however, would be. You get exp from hunting also. Maybe some of those creatures are outside your exp threshold. There ought to be a bit more scaling as far as that's concerned.

Then again... it's probably much easier to get around there. You could likely script a great part of it. I'd like to just bring up that automated script hunting of rogues is not easy and automated script hunting of pures is so damned easy that it's practically the only way I hunt my pures. It's sort of like the way no rogue masters stun maneuvers by hand.

Also, boxes don't come in the hundreds, much less in the hundreds that are of the right difficulty. Picking reps tend to be about 5 boxes per task.

[Some Rogue]

I've done both. They both suck. But too many people downplay how hard LM is. Once Phase 2 of alchemy comes out, at least you'll have some nice things that you can make. What do LM masters get? Clasps and locks and lockpicks that only they or another locksmith could even use. Joy.

Sure, we can collect the trap components to sell I guess but good luck finding many unless you pick for the public in a major city.

[DaCapn]

I didn't really stop to think that after roughly rank 25, LM gives you nothing particularly useful. I was just in "must grind" mode. Heh.

[Some Rogue]

which is why you team up with others just like alchemists do to get stuff. I have about 40 boxes waiting for someone to get the ranks to use them.

And you think dozens of people are gonna hold on to all their boxes waiting for me to be able to open them? They come back to town, get them opened by whoever is there or pop them themselves.

Maybe we rogues can get a chest to throw our boxes in so the whole thing only counts as one item instead of multiple ones. Holding on to 40 gems or crystals is a lot easier than holding on to 40 boxes.

[Allereli]

IYou get exp from hunting also. Maybe some of those creatures are outside your exp threshold.

No, all of the creatures are outside the xp threshold, except for the uber-rare radiant drops and sirens in nelemar. IMO, in order to effectively hunt for fire on the flats, you have to be able to go out and kill about 300 creatures (I've counted the skins) for about 20 fires on a good hunt. If you can kill that many creatures in a hunt as a pure and not run out of mana, there's no way you're learning from them.

For amount of reps I was only considering trap extractions because those are the hardest things to find.

[Allereli]

And you think dozens of people are gonna hold on to all their boxes waiting for me to be able to open them? They come back to town, get them opened by whoever is there or pop them themselves.

Maybe we rogues can get a chest to throw our boxes in so the whole thing only counts as one item instead of multiple ones. Holding on to 40 gems or crystals is a lot easier than holding on to 40 boxes.

No, but three might.

edit: the jars are a recent addition. I had to use six or so mules in various places. I couldn't even use them until maybe the last week I was working.

[CrystalTears]

That's assuming any of those three boxes will work at all towards a rep.

[Allereli]

That's assuming any of those three boxes will work at all towards a rep.

I gave a five box per task average for trap extraction. I was told success is ~40-60%, so I went with the lower end.

[CrystalTears]

Why are you focusing on trap extraction? There are SO many types of LM tasks that I don't know why you're hellbent on talking about that one as the end all be all of LFM.

[Allereli]

Why are you focusing on trap extraction? There are SO many types of LM tasks that I don't know why you're hellbent on talking about that one as the end all be all of LFM.

because those are the hardest things to find, and that's what most of alchemy is, searching for the rare stuff.

[Stanley Burrell]

Grummage?

[Some Rogue]

I don't know...finding "tough" locks for me is hard too. Especially when you have to use some of your best picks. There are so many times the lock is beyond me with whatever pick I am using, so I use lore and then the lock is too easy for a rep. ::mutter::

Then you have to have an audience on some of them.

Hell, the worst thing for me so far has been caliper reps. If I hadn't had a bard to sing the exact level of lock for me on every rep, it would have taken forever.

Trap extraction is only 10 ranks worth I think. You have to pick "tough" locks throughout.

[Elvenlady]

Grummage?

I know, right!

[Stanley Burrell]

You should just ask him/her/it if you can grummage whenever you see them and then be all, "Are you sure it's okay for me to GRUMMAGE in this GRUMMAGEY area worthy of GRUMMAGING?"

...

You could also just kill him/her/it and bury the body in the Himalayas.

[Elvenlady]

You could also just kill him/her/it and bury the body in the Himalayas.

Chances are with global warming the body would be visible in about 6 months though.

[Stanley Burrell]

Polar bears.

[DaCapn]

No, all of the creatures are outside the xp threshold, except for the uber-rare radiant drops and sirens in nelemar. IMO, in order to effectively hunt for fire on the flats, you have to be able to go out and kill about 300 creatures (I've counted the skins) for about 20 fires on a good hunt. If you can kill that many creatures in a hunt as a pure and not run out of mana, there's no way you're learning from them.

Like I said... if it's tedious and way below your level... script.

[Allereli]

Like I said... if it's tedious and way below your level... script.

many people can't write a script that complicated, me included. I have no interest in script hunting. I hunted with someone once who was (I didn't know they were going to before we went out) and it was retarded.

[DaCapn]

If you don't want to take advantage of a feature that's going to make it easier for you, I don't know what to tell you.

Yes, script hunting in groups is retarded... heh.

[Allereli]

If you don't want to take advantage of a feature that's going to make it easier for you, I don't know what to tell you.

Yes, script hunting in groups is retarded... heh.

I have no desire to watch a hunting script, nor did I ever ask for any relief from the hunting.

edit: also, script hunting goes against everything my character is about.

[Morrff]

I've speed read through basically this entire thread.

LM IS easier then Alchemy, by far too. Scripting is much easier for LM training too! But thinking back on my Lm training I was just about as wound up thinking that this SUCKS and had to take a few breaks from it. However I've learned to train differently with Alchemy

I just take Alchemy in stride now, have some people gather stuff and I buy bulk deals of the stuff I need. I DO NOT actively look/search out the ingredients I let them come to me. It's not like there's a big hurry to master it, we're still waiting for part #2 and who knows when that will be.

Anyone hear anything at the Con about alchemy? If not then it's probably going to be a little while before it's implemented.

[DaCapn]

Scripting is not an in-character function. It is an OOC function. As such, it is invariant of roleplaying. Your character is doing the same thing whether you're letting a script grind on gathering crap or doing it manually. Other than that, if you have no desire, I guess I have nothing to say but "I hope you continue to enjoy your commitment to mindless tedium."

Morrff: Yes, certainly it is easy to script through the LM footpad reps. I'm talking about gathering difficult boxes, traps, plates, etc. The part that's actually difficult.

[Allereli]

Scripting is not an in-character function. It is an OOC function. As such, it is invariant of roleplaying. Your character is doing the same thing whether you're letting a script grind on gathering crap or doing it manually. Other than that, if you have no desire, I guess I have nothing to say but "I hope you continue to enjoy your commitment to mindless tedium."

Morrff: Yes, certainly it is easy to script through the LM footpad reps. I'm talking about gathering difficult boxes, traps, plates, etc. The part that's actually difficult.

Since hunting is the only way for my character to level with regularity, then no, it's not the same as grinding shit up, which nets me no experience or coin. I like to hunt using different spells and methods, and this carries over into my character's opinions and what she(I) tells people about hunting as a sorcerer. Hunting is treated as an art form, not a grind, even underhunting I try different things in order to maximize efficiency and things like skin value. If you're treating your main way of advancing like a chore, then why bother playing?

[DaCapn]

That's what I was saying... if that's what you like, help yourself.

[Morrff]

Morrff: Yes, certainly it is easy to script through the LM footpad reps. I'm talking about gathering difficult boxes, traps, plates, etc. The part that's actually difficult.

Right you need to find the boxes, script hunting and stowing the boxes are indeed harder, still easily possible depending where you hunt. A lot of people do not like to script hunt though.

It's still easier to script: making wedges, lockpicks, locks, clasps and the actual picking aspect are all easily written scripts when compared to alchemy scripts(Mainly because no one's gathered(Publicly) all the matching text). There's plenty of picking scripts and LM scripts already out there to improve on and hardly any alchemy scripts.

Still gathering the right boxes and then hoping you actually are able to remove the component and not have to find another one IS a bitch. But by far gathering stuff for Alchemy is much harder, was harder still without the 50 item jars!

[DaCapn]

I don't think script hunting with rogues in areas that will give you tough enough boxes is easy to do throughout LM. Do you do it?

[Morrff]

I don't script hunt the majority of what I hunt, I just don't enjoy script hunting. Gets too borring, I actually enjoy the hunting aspect of the game.

I do have a script for both nelemar and OTF which work great. Even takes into account hunting in groups with rogues. I mainly built the OTF one to see if I could after someone showed me their version.

I do however on every character script: picking up and stowing everything, respelling up after being dispelled(pures obviously), unloading, picking, selling and various other things that aid my hunt, but as for hunting its self I don't prefer to.

[DaCapn]

I've never tried to make a script for a rogue but it seems like it would be pretty damn difficult to get it to work out right with refreshing a couple of maneuvers, managing the use of maneuver attacks, and hididing/ambushing. Add in some creature hazards and it's a real project.

I find hunting with rogues to be pretty fun but with a wizard, I don't know. I have a few macros: a "first swing" damage spell, a "second swing" damage spell, and a crowd control spell. I basically just alternate between hitting those macros. The most exciting variation tends to be casting a round of mana leech once. That's why I script them. To me, it's about as exciting as sweeping the guild.

[Drunken Durfin]

Phaythe says, "Can you go grummage ingredients somewhere else."



Phaythe will be getting a "Terasian Courtesy Lesson" next time I see 'em, mattock to the forehead.

[LadyLaphrael]

I hate to say it, but LM really isn't as hard as people make it out to be, so long as you don't mind sucking up pride and sitting in the east tower for spans of time. Trap components, while they were the hardest span of ranks, were easy to get if you tell people "I'm looking for a crystal sphere trap, if you don't mind me giving it a go." Mind you, this assumes that people can actually tell one trap apart from another, which almost surprised me how many people that pick for the public couldn't do.

In that regard, I'll compare alchemy and LM...with help, they're both a lot easier than they could be. But the new and awesome (way) treasure system makes alchemy seem not only tedious and lacking in experience gain, but also completely un-profitable (and more than likely, a huge net loss in the end, financially). At its worst, you only have to deal with one of the three for LM.

[ZeP]

So if the alchemists are not earning exp for farming these areas does it still lower the loot? I will make this on topic by suggesting that maybe that is what the person in the OP is whining about.

I think though, based on the grummage thing, that they are retarded and are afraid of running out of creatures in one of the biggest swarming areas for that level. Still I wonder about the loot question though. It could definitely affect choice of hunting area.

[Elvenlady]

So if the alchemists are not earning exp for farming these areas does it still lower the loot? I will make this on topic by suggesting that maybe that is what the person in the OP is whining about.

Unless I'm assisting him in his hunting i.e part of his group, my presence will not affect his exp or loot.

[Morrff]

I hate to say it, but LM really isn't as hard as people make it out to be, so long as you don't mind sucking up pride and sitting in the east tower for spans of time.

Sure, this would work alright. Except for capped rogues in which case it would be harder.


Unless I'm assisting him in his hunting i.e part of his group, my presence will not affect his exp or loot.

Unless you're 410, 912, 501, etc etc, then it would effect their loot according to how I understand it.(Although I've been wrong before and I'm sure I will be again)

[LadyLaphrael]

Sure, this would work alright. Except for capped rogues in which case it would be harder.

Unfortunately, that's the price folks pay for waiting until the end to master LM. I did it first before any other skills, 3x'ing in the pertinent skills, and was mastered in only a few months because I didn't have to wait until someone came around with the precious pack full of Stronghold boxes that every rogue chomps at the bit for, rep-wise.

Does intentionally fix-skilling your picking skills down help lower the necessary threshold for reps? I know it's been suggested, but has anyone actually tested it?

[Some Rogue]

Unfortunately, that's the price folks pay for waiting until the end to master LM. I did it first before any other skills, 3x'ing in the pertinent skills, and was mastered in only a few months because I didn't have to wait until someone came around with the precious pack full of Stronghold boxes that every rogue chomps at the bit for, rep-wise.

Does intentionally fix-skilling your picking skills down help lower the necessary threshold for reps? I know it's been suggested, but has anyone actually tested it?

Some people were higher level/capped when it came out and didn't have the option. :P

And yes, fixskilling down your skills works.

[Morrff]

Some people were higher level/capped when it came out and didn't have the option. :P

Beat me to it!

[DaCapn]

Hm... The only person I've seen master LM in a very short period of time was a straight up vulture who barely stopped playing for bodily functions. They seemed to get it done over the course of maybe 6 months. Vulture of the worst kind too, like he was real punchy with "Open if needed" and nodding to people but so terribly polite to everyone.

As far as ranking down in picking to have an easier time in finding boxes: the minimum lock/trap you need to get a rep is a different percentage of your max lock depending upon how much you train making it barely, if at all, beneficial. When I went from 3x to 2x with this strategy in mind, I qualitatively saw no difference.

Edit: I guess ranking down probably has a much greater impact for those (near) capped people. Though the box still has to be from a creature that you can get exp from. At that point... I don't know how much that matters.

[LadyLaphrael]

Some people were higher level/capped when it came out and didn't have the option. :P

Admittedly, didn't even think about that.


Hm... The only person I've seen master LM in a very short period of time was a straight up vulture who barely stopped playing for bodily functions. They seemed to get it done over the course of maybe 6 months. Vulture of the worst kind too, like he was real punchy with "Open if needed" and nodding to people but so terribly polite to everyone.

It took me about 4.5 months to do it, thanks to a few good friends who could pull anywhere from 10-20 boxes from a single hunt that were all within my range. I could usually keep tasking out until I hit contest reps. By the time those were done, the next hunt was probably over. And if you ever heard the words "Open picker" or any derivation thereof out of me, it could always be assumed that I was mocking the ones who macroed it every 5 seconds.

[DaCapn]

Aha! So that means you're one of those "didn't leave the keyboard even for bodily functions" types. How does it feel to be so exposed? You might as well be on "to catch a predator."

[Morrff]

Aha! So that means you're one of those "didn't leave the keyboard even for bodily functions" types. How does it feel to be so exposed? You might as well be on "to catch a predator."

heh made me chuckle

[LadyLaphrael]

Aha! So that means you're one of those "didn't leave the keyboard even for bodily functions" types. How does it feel to be so exposed? You might as well be on "to catch a predator."

Yep, you pegged me. I suppose I don't feel too bad. It was actually a lot harder moving my computer desk into the bathroom for those few months and hooking up the CO2 tank and mountain dew syrup dispenser above the toilet. Getting the pizza guy to make regular house calls, however, was no problem at all.

[Allereli]

Yep, you pegged me. I suppose I don't feel too bad. It was actually a lot harder moving my computer desk into the bathroom for those few months and hooking up the CO2 tank and mountain dew syrup dispenser above the toilet. Getting the pizza guy to make regular house calls, however, was no problem at all.

I just wore diapers.

[CrystalTears]

It took me about 4.5 months to do it, thanks to a few good friends who could pull anywhere from 10-20 boxes from a single hunt that were all within my range.Weren't there people mastering alchemy within weeks of release?

[Allereli]

Weren't there people mastering alchemy within weeks of release?

And the training was changed so that you had to make stuff in the cauldrons.

edit: and also changed so recipes didn't last as long, and general ones wouldn't work for trinkets, etc.

[LadyLaphrael]

I just wore diapers.

Diapers? lrn2behardcore

[CrystalTears]

And the training was changed so that you had to make stuff in the cauldrons.

edit: and also changed so recipes didn't last as long, and general ones wouldn't work for trinkets, etc.
So?

It just seems that alchemy mastering was geared more towards those capped (or close to) as getting the items will be easier, as opposed to LM which is easier the earlier you start. Both are a bitch to rank through.

[Allereli]

So?

It just seems that alchemy mastering was geared more towards those capped (or close to) as getting the items will be easier, as opposed to LM which is easier the earlier you start. Both are a bitch to rank through.

umm, so it gave about 1000x more things to gather. give it up, everyone says alchemy is harder, you're pulling at straws.

[CrystalTears]

I just don't want people downplaying LM. All classes have their cross to bear.

[Allereli]

I just don't want people downplaying LM. All classes have their cross to bear.

I said in my post that LM deserves its reputation, if you'd get your head out of your ass and L2READ

[Morrff]

And the training was changed so that you had to make stuff in the cauldrons.

edit: and also changed so recipes didn't last as long, and general ones wouldn't work for trinkets, etc.

Also they changed the recipe lists so that you had to turn everything on them in full or wait 15 minutes to get another. At first you could turn 1 item in on it and get another one right after, it was a cake walk. Sort of like how people wracked up so many bounty points up in so little time when AvG first came out.

[CrystalTears]

I said in my post that LM deserves its reputation, if you'd get your head out of your ass and L2READ
Learn to stop being such a raging cunt.

[Allereli]

Learn to stop being such a raging cunt.

:club:

I hate that fucking pot meet kettle shit, but pot meet kettle

[CrystalTears]

Right, so I know a cunt when I see one.

And since I wasn't downplaying alchemy, just trying to emphasize that LM isn't the walk in the park that you nancies cry that it is, I just wanted to get my two cents in.

[Allereli]

Right, so I know a cunt when I see one.

And since I wasn't downplaying alchemy, just trying to emphasize that LM isn't the walk in the park that you nancies cry that it is, I just wanted to get my two cents in.

You got it in, then went on and on after everyone said alchemy was harder.

WE KNOW LM ISN'T A WALK IN THE PARK

does that make you happy? Jesus fucking christ.

[Belnia]

I just don't want people downplaying LM. All classes have their cross to bear.

Rangers, bards and paladins have no guild skills to complain about!

[Some Rogue]

And if Alchemy was 10x times harder than it is now, I'd still say cry more.

Pures shouldn't have gotten any guild skills in the first place.

[TheWitch]

Weren't there people mastering alchemy within weeks of release?

Not really people so much as person. Tsin. Who in all his OCD glory HAD to be FIRST!!!111!!, got a LOT of skills changed to be more difficult and time consuming.

In fairness, he also found a lot of bugs and other issues as well.

He also has, what, 12 accounts? And unlimited silvers, and was buying things up in every town for top dollar and was probably wearing diapers.

The average person trying to do alchemy with one account.... will not do it in the month or two Tsin managed. I've been plugging away since it was introduced - 10 months or so, probably with an average amount of time to spend (less lately), and I'm nowhere near finishing.

It isn't even the difficulty. It's the sheer volume of SHIT. It forces you as a player totally OOC if you want to make any progress at all, because even after these awesome jars, there's just no possible way one character can store all this crap. I have 5 locker bots.

My rogues doing LFM, I've helped people do LFM. LFM, while a pain the ass, allows you to remain in character, at least. You're doing what locksmithing rogues do....picking boxes.

Alchemy has pures foraging, a thing they're PENALIZED by the system while doing. It has us attempting to skin, or paying other people to skin. It has us underhunting by literally 99 levels for hairs - just one example of the idiocy. And worst of all, it's almost impossible to RP while engaging in the majority of the tasks, since we're closeted in the guild.

Yea, it's optional and I'm not complaining per se. But relative to LFM, it's got a lot of downsides LFM simply does not have

And frankly CT, if you can't see that, I'm not sure what else to tell you. It's like comparing forging and cobbling. Yea, they're both a pain in the ass, but one is clearly a larger pain in the ass than the other.

[Allereli]

Pures shouldn't have gotten any guild skills in the first place.

Why not? I think everyone should have guild skills. I think it's bullshit monks are coming out before semis get their skills developed.

[CrystalTears]

Probably because for years we were told that only squares would have guild skills.

[LadyLaphrael]

And frankly CT, if you can't see that, I'm not sure what else to tell you. It's like comparing forging and cobbling. Yea, they're both a pain in the ass, but one is clearly a larger pain in the ass than the other.

Amen to that. I have to put in an assist request and then a referral request half the time I make settings for cobbling. That's like...an 8 hour RT that resets every time I log off...and that's just for one pair, excluding the time it takes to actually make the shoes.

[CrystalTears]

So wait, which is harder, forging or cobbling? :D

[Allereli]

Probably because for years we were told that only squares would have guild skills.

I quit in '01, my old sorcerer joined the guild the day it opened a little while before that. How old is that statement that pures and other professions wouldn't have skills? Why do pures having guild skills take away from what squares have as skills? That's just profession jealousy. All professions should have 6 skills, completed spell lists, and completed physical capabilities, whichever ones apply.

[DaCapn]

Foraging and skinning... Nobody but rangers and empaths seem to be able to do that. I took 1x in survival for a while (50 ranks) to be able to take some of those AdG guild tasks. It did no good. My skins were still basically worthless. That skill needs an overhaul. I've heard that some reform here may be on the horizon.

[Zarli]

Seriously, what does it matter if other professions have guild skills? Why should playing the game be less for one person just because they chose to play a pure rather then a square or semi? That makes no sense, we all pay for the game.

[LadyLaphrael]

Why not? I think everyone should have guild skills. I think it's bullshit monks are coming out before semis get their skills developed.

Monks are coming out RSN, right? There's still time!

[Allereli]

Foraging and skinning... Nobody but rangers and empaths seem to be able to do that. I took 1x in survival for a while (50 ranks) to be able to take some of those AdG guild tasks. It did no good. My skins were still basically worthless. That skill needs an overhaul. I've heard that some reform here may be on the horizon.

Skinning is awesome and is currently the most effective way to cash hunt. I don't know anything about your character, but if you're not 1x-ing skinning skills, it's not enough to be very successful at it in terms of value.

[TheWitch]

So wait, which is harder, forging or cobbling? :D

Exactly my point.

You'll get different answers from different people.

Generally speaking people who have done both seem to agree, alchemy is the bigger pain in the ass. Really, what the hell difference does it make? You seem to be the one who needs her cross to be heaviest and ugliest.

In summary: They both suck. Artisan skills suck. Guilds suck. The game sucks. Let's quit.

Shessh.

[DaCapn]

Do you mean 1x in BOTH survival and first aid? I thought 50 ranks of survival would do the trick with a 40 dex bonus. Tried being careful about the kill point too.

[Some Rogue]

Seriously, what does it matter if other professions have guild skills? Why should playing the game be less for one person just because they chose to play a pure rather then a square or semi? That makes no sense, we all pay for the game.


Yes, pures have it oh so rough. Being able to do almost everything a square can and do it better and do more on top of that must really suck.

The only reason guilds were made for squares in the first place was to keep us somewhat close in our ability to hunt. Pures didn't need skills to hunt, they did fine and still do.

For a long time there weren't even any guilds but the rogue and warrior guilds. Then they slowly started to cave on that, started making the buildings. Then caved on making some skills. Then gave the skills we learned in the guild away to lots of other professions through the Cman system.

This game has always been biased in favor of casters and probably always will be.

And I think my new reasoning for not giving any skills to other classes is because as soon as you do, they start crying about how hard it is to train in even when it's completley OPTIONAL.

[Allereli]

Yes, pures have it oh so rough. Being able to do almost everything a square can and do it better and do more on top of that must really suck.

Actually, it doesn't, it's a lot of fun.

[CrystalTears]

You'll get different answers from different people.But apparently my perspective is wrong because pures cry the loudest.

Really, what the hell difference does it make?
A lot apparently because this argument gets brought up quite often by pures who have to suffer through alchemy as though it were required of them to.
You seem to be the one who needs her cross to be heaviest and ugliest.I am? I wasn't even the one who brought up LM, and people were all over him because of it, so I defended the notion.

[Fallen]

I would describe LM as about as "necessary" as alchemy. Difference being, no one is going to walk up to you and hand you work for alchemy, let alone tip you for it, and give experience.

Alchemy is a bitch, LM is a bitch. Right now, LM is a hell of a lot more interesting/useful than alchemy.

[Some Rogue]

Actually, it doesn't, it's a lot of fun.

Yeah, I know, which is why I have 6 pures/semis, 3 squares(only one of which I play regularly).

[Some Rogue]

I would describe LM as about as "necessary" as alchemy. Difference being, no one is going to walk up to you and hand you work for alchemy, let alone tip you for it, and give experience.


It's necessary if you're a locksmith and want to get all your boxes and not have to hand it to a caster (I see a trend here!) to pop/blow up or have to take it to the NPC.

And once phase 2 comes out, I'm betting there will be a lot more people who will be willing to pay for the service and probably more than a rogue gets tipped.

[Fallen]

You ..do know squares also have a means of opening plated boxes, yes?

OMG CASTERS ARE EVIIIIIL

Yes. Lock Mastery will give you vials to open plated boxes, as well as wedges. Last I heard rogues can learn 407 pretty easily, too.

[CrystalTears]

Last I heard rogues can learn 407 pretty easily, too.
Easily?

[Allereli]

And once phase 2 comes out, I'm betting there will be a lot more people who will be willing to pay for the service and probably more than a rogue gets tipped.

I'm betting on that, too, one of the many reasons I went through with it. But rogues can train in scroll use or miu to have access to 407 without getting the spell ranks or doing the guild work.

Anyway, it's a game based on magic, of course the professions that can cast are going to have an advantage.

[Fallen]

Easily?

A rogue with spells is not a mutant build, so yes. Easily. As easily as any other training plan once you have the levels.

Easily /= quickly

[Zarli]

Yes, pures have it oh so rough. Being able to do almost everything a square can and do it better and do more on top of that must really suck.

The only reason guilds were made for squares in the first place was to keep us somewhat close in our ability to hunt. Pures didn't need skills to hunt, they did fine and still do.

For a long time there weren't even any guilds but the rogue and warrior guilds. Then they slowly started to cave on that, started making the buildings. Then caved on making some skills. Then gave the skills we learned in the guild away to lots of other professions through the Cman system.

This game has always been biased in favor of casters and probably always will be.

And I think my new reasoning for not giving any skills to other classes is because as soon as you do, they start crying about how hard it is to train in even when it's completley OPTIONAL.


I never said anyone had anything easier or harder, we're different, if you want to cast, roll up a pure, if you want to bash stuff's brains out, roll a square, if you want to do both roll a semi.

All I was saying is that I dont see why it makes one bit of difference if everyone has a guild with skills they can work on to stop the mindlessness of only learning from hunting. I dont know much about sorcerers as that's the one class I've never played at all, but they have at least one guild skill and I dont see it helping them be more amazingly awesome so... who cares? It's something else to do for awhile.

[Some Rogue]

Anyway, it's a game based on magic, of course the professions that can cast are going to have an advantage.


Like WoW?

Oh wait.

If you haven't played that, ask some of the others here how well rogues and warriors can do there.

[Fallen]

Wouldn't a rogue built to be the best locksmith possible already have those spells for the lores? Heck, LM gives you the means to deal with these situations and NOT concentrate solely on picking.

I personally believe the more magic a square is able to wield the better off they are. Be it from MIU/Arcane Symbols/Society/spells/Toys. Can a square be played without magic? Sure. Should they really bitch and moan as much as they do when they aren't as good? Probably not.

[Allereli]

Do you mean 1x in BOTH survival and first aid? I thought 50 ranks of survival would do the trick with a 40 dex bonus. Tried being careful about the kill point too.

Aller has a combination of the two and is just over 1x in skinning skills, I know she has 54 in first aid, and then between 30 and 40 in survival (at level 84). Training in the skills, as well as the kill point/damage to the body, is vastly more important than any stat bonus, I believe, but anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Some Rogue]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/full_metal_jacket.gif

[Some Rogue]

I mean..

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/1191664289385zp9.jpg

I give up.

ROAGS R FINE, L2P LOLOLOLOL

[NocturnalRob]

Yes. Lock Mastery will give you vials to open plated boxes, as well as wedges. Last I heard rogues can learn 407 pretty easily, too.

just because it's a spell they have access to, doesn't mean it can be easily learned. that's a lot of training points to dump into a spell list just to open boxes that can just be wedged open.

and yes, eventually you'll probably learn beyond 407 (and I intend to), but right now I'm fine just grinding out LM on Teras. I've never had the distinct displeasure of going through alchemy, and if it's harder (general consensus) than LM, I have no interest. But it also provides a useful set of tertiary skills, and I don't mind it that much.

Just my two cents...only 38 ranks to go!!

[Fallen]

I don't think either guild skill is worth the bother unless you actually somehow (even subconsciously) enjoy the guild process. Oh NOEZ, you can't open 1 box in 20! Oh Noez, I can't make an acantha tincture!

ESPECIALLY for rogues, when you can learn CMANs which perform better than the TP bought ones, and you get them without spending so much as a damned drop of EXP towards them.

[Allereli]

just because it's a spell they have access to, doesn't mean it can be easily learned. that's a lot of training points to dump into a spell list just to open boxes that can just be wedged open.

and yes, eventually you'll probably learn beyond 407 (and I intend to), but right now I'm fine just grinding out LM on Teras. I've never had the distinct displeasure of going through alchemy, and if it's harder (general consensus) than LM, I have no interest. But it also provides a useful set of tertiary skills, and I don't mind it that much.

Just my two cents...only 38 ranks to go!!

That shit was only worth one cent ;)

But can I ask why most rogues don't just get the MIU ranks to wave an unlock rod?

[NocturnalRob]

That shit was only worth one cent ;)

sad panda! :(


But can I ask why most rogues don't just get the MIU ranks to wave an unlock rod?

i dunno...apathy? I've got more than enough MIU, but I never bother to have someone imbed it for me.

[Fallen]

I think how well the spell performs is based on spell ranks. However, when dealing with boxes you can't learn from I bet even unlock rods would work fairly well.

[Morrff]

I think how well the spell performs is based on spell ranks. However, when dealing with boxes you can't learn from I bet even unlock rods would work fairly well.

407 takes into account picking ranks/bonus and perception I believe.(So I've been told)

Pures with 75 ranks in the 400's and no picking skill have a harder time to pop boxes in my experience. Taking into account only like level hunting, not farming low level boxes

[m444w]

I don't even bother with learning disarm/picking. with 2x perception I can see all the traps from anything I would hunt, and from well over what I would hunt. I just pop the boxes.
Guild skills suck. After I master gambits for archery, I'm done. Fuck that pointless shit... What do I get out of it? The ability to kneebash/sweep something? Screw that, I can just use ewave, hamstring or any other disabling manuever that works better/faster.

[Fallen]

Well crap. 407 scrolls/wands FTW. Quitcher bitching, Rogues!

[NocturnalRob]

Well crap. 407 scrolls/wands FTW. Quitcher bitching, Rogues!

yes, sir!! and to be fair, I wasn't bitching. I still think rogues are one of the most fun classes in GS. Part of that fun is due to their skill diversity.

[Some Rogue]

yes, sir!! and to be fair, I wasn't bitching. I still think rogues are one of the most fun classes in GS. Part of that fun is due to their skill diversity.


Says the guy who hunts more with his bard. DIAF!!111112`2312

[Fallen]

I don't even bother with learning disarm/picking. with 2x perception I can see all the traps from anything I would hunt, and from well over what I would hunt. I just pop the boxes.
Guild skills suck. After I master gambits for archery, I'm done. Fuck that pointless shit... What do I get out of it? The ability to kneebash/sweep something? Screw that, I can just use ewave, hamstring or any other disabling manuever that works better/faster.

Sweep should definitely be a 3 second maneuver if it isn't already. Cheapshots are pretty fricken awesome IMO. Stun maneuvers blow, but I HAVE to imagine they will eventually see some sort of buff. Rogue gambits is essential for archers, isn't it? (ah, you mentioned that)

Then of course, LFM.

[NocturnalRob]

Says the guy who hunts more with his bard. DIAF!!111112`2312

hahaha...so true, so true. eh, it's such a faster, easier hunt. 3-4 minutes tops. belled to fried. usually 2-3 boxes. LM reps for Hop. Easy peasy. I need to move Hop to mages. legging pyros so i can smash their heads is getting tedious.

[NocturnalRob]

Sweep should definitely be a 3 second maneuver if it isn't already. Cheapshots are pretty fricken awesome IMO. Stun maneuvers blow, but I HAVE to imagine they will eventually see some sort of buff. Rogue gambits is essential for archers, isn't it? (ah, you mentioned that)

Then of course, LFM.

yeah, m444w is delusional. sweep is great. cheapshots are amazing once you master. stunman move has saved my ass more times than I can count.

m444w, you're talking out of your ass.

[DaCapn]

Why do we want 407 again?

Edit: Regarding CMans, subdue is the useless one. Sweep is good and stun maneuvers are so fucking great. I haven't gotten anywhere worthwhile with cheapshots yet. I do agree that sweep should be 3 seconds. Look at hamstring.

[CrystalTears]

Just out of curiosity, how does gambits help with archery?

[NocturnalRob]

Why do we want 407 again?

because apparently the only way you win at gemstone is by knowing more spells than everyone else


Just out of curiosity, how does gambits help with archery?

allows you to do everything from hiding. stealth shize.

[Fallen]

So you don't need to bother with LM to open plated boxes. Your picking skill should cover you.

----
I think Sweep and tackle are both outmoded. ESPECIALLY tackle. 7 seconds for a fucking knockdown maneuver? Are you kidding me? What are the exact specs on sweep? It should be a 3 second maneuver.

Cheapshots are great unless you're going against an opponent in plate. The RT for knee-bash is pretty nasty, and stancing creatures via swiftkick is nice, but likely not as much as Feint.

[CrystalTears]

I really need to play my rogue more. Damned Olympics taking up all my spare time! :D

[m444w]

yeah, m444w is delusional. sweep is great. cheapshots are amazing once you master. stunman move has saved my ass more times than I can count.

m444w, you're talking out of your ass.

You quickly dart behind a lesser orc and try to hamstring her with your krodera stiletto and rolaren blade!
[Roll result: 231 (open d100: 73) Bonus: 5]
With a vicious double-strike you slash at the lesser orc's right hamstring!
... 31 points of damage!
The lesser orc falls to the ground grasping its mangled right leg in agony!
The lesser orc is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

[Roll result: 178 (open d100: 38) Penalties: 0]
You crouch, sweep a leg at a lesser burrow orc and connect!
A lesser burrow orc falls to the ground! You deftly regain your footing.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Stunned and prone in 3 seconds versus just lying down in 5?

Secondly...

Suckerpunch takes 7 stamina, stuns on 101, forces stance, and has a +15 bonus to successful activation, and only takes 3 seconds = trumps cheapshots.

Stunmans rarely work on magical stuns, when you need them most, nor do they work on other magically induced states (web, bind, rooted).

I repeat my statement.

Waste of time.

[Some Rogue]

Sweep is useless unless the critter is too tall to hit the head. Why knockdown when I can hide and ambush and get a DS pushdown well enough to kill it?

Cheapshot...most of them are useless. Not much need to stance something when again, I can hide and get the DS pushdown from ambush.

Stunmans...ok in theory, doesn't work well enough usually to help you until you master and mastering is almost as bad as LFM.

Subdue..they should just delete this skill.

Gambits great for archers and thieves. Has a few other uses but it's easy to train in so I can live with it.

[m444w]

Sweep is useless unless the critter is too tall to hit the head. Why knockdown when I can hide and ambush and get a DS pushdown well enough to kill it?


Also another very valid point.

[Methais]

It's hard enough having to gather rare ingredients but attitudes like this take all the pleasure out of alchemy for me and quite frankly, pissed me off today.

Phaythe says, "Can you go grummage ingredients somewhere else."

I take great care when walking around the Basalt Flats not to disrupt others hunting and go out of my way to help with spells etc. Given the VERY limited places that fire and golden moonstones can be found, what else are we supposed to do?

Here's what you're supposed to do:

- Tell them "Can you go hunt somewhere else?"
- Tell them "No," and that their gayness just ensured you won't help them if they get pwned, because you have to spend all your time rummaging so you can hurry up and be done with the area and not intrude on his hunting any further.
- Tell him to eat a dick sandwich. I've never seen this scrub on Teras so it's not like he's been around. Not that it would matter anyway.
- Kill him
- All of the above

[DaCapn]

- Tell him to eat a dick sandwich.

Yeah... mmm... feed that bitch a dick sandwich.

Stunmans are the easiest maneuver to master. It takes a long time but it doesn't require partners, finding anything, or anything. With a one-time investment in one of those skull-pommeled badelaires (which you can later re-sell anyway) it's super easy. Scriptable start to finish.

[NocturnalRob]

You quickly dart behind a lesser orc and try to hamstring her with your krodera stiletto and rolaren blade!
[Roll result: 231 (open d100: 73) Bonus: 5]
With a vicious double-strike you slash at the lesser orc's right hamstring!
... 31 points of damage!
The lesser orc falls to the ground grasping its mangled right leg in agony!
The lesser orc is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

[Roll result: 178 (open d100: 38) Penalties: 0]
You crouch, sweep a leg at a lesser burrow orc and connect!
A lesser burrow orc falls to the ground! You deftly regain your footing.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Stunned and prone in 3 seconds versus just lying down in 5?

Secondly...

Suckerpunch takes 7 stamina, stuns on 101, forces stance, and has a +15 bonus to successful activation, and only takes 3 seconds = trumps cheapshots.

Stunmans rarely work on magical stuns, when you need them most, nor do they work on other magically induced states (web, bind, rooted).

I repeat my statement.

Waste of time.

hamstring costs cman points. sweep is free. free = win.

[m444w]

sweep costs stamina too. And that's like saying a free AMC Gremlin beats paying 5 dollars and getting a mercedes.

[CrystalTears]

A mastered guild skill outranks a mastered CMAN skill and it doesn't take up training points. If you're going to get sweep, you may as well try and master it through the guild.

[DaCapn]

And if you're not going to train in it with cman points, you still might as well.

[Fallen]

Hamstring is amazing for warriors because they can bond to their weapon and get that extra CML on their attacks. Rogues? Not so much.