Best Zerk Weapon.

[Borismere]

Although, its been discussed. I'll like to recap just for budding zerkers out there.

Top Three Best builds/weapons to Zerk.

1.) Twin perfect morningstars.

2.) Perfect Awl-pike

3.) Claidhmore

Specifically,

7x Perfect Morns w/heavy crit weighting > 7x Perfect Awl-pike w/heavy crit weighting> 4x normal Claidhmore.

* This is A.) If sunfist symbols don't stack B.) the enchants are kept constant.

Mechanically speaking this is the order. If you want the hard numbers it's all over these forums.

[Khariz]

I diagree completely. Don't really feel like explaining why though. It's not really worth it. Trying to pin down "bests" never works. Suffice to say Mauls should be on that list, and much higher. Claidhmores should be #1.

You have to take into account that all these weapons become equal RT-wise with berserk. Where a greatsword-claidhmore loses superiority in the DF realm, it more than makes up for it with the ****** 40 ******* points of crit weighting.

Stars and Awl-pikes are laughable when you get the same number of hits per round with a Claidhmore. Raw numbers != best in this case. I don't need the best DF when with a endroll of 108, I can kill anything I hit in the head/neck/chest/back/eyes. Trust me.

[Borismere]

If the mechanics equations are correct, which according to many it is. Then a 7x awl-pike w/GoS is slightly better then the 4x claid. Just by numerical calculations don't know about the actual field. And the morningstars are just sheer cut better. You're getting 14 attacks with a heavy crit weighted perfect morn to the claids 7.

[Fallen]

Are you taking into account the insane amount of natural padding the Grimswarm have? If you can reliably land the shots, I would definitely say a claidh is the way to go. The whole theory of weighting overkill goes right out the window when dealing with padded foes.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Just blow 50m on a death claidh. Problem solved. In fact, if I had a seller of one at a low price, I may consider coming back to the game. They're nucking futs.

[Durgrimst]

death claid = ???

Are you talking about one that is of a higher enchant, or with the extra weighting?

[Fallen]

I think he is talking about Death weaponry, which I do not think ever existed in Claidh form.

[Durgrimst]

Are those the weapons that kill anything as long as you get a 101 or higher end roll?

[Fallen]

No. They are weapons with extra properties against certain types of foes. There are bane weapons, and death weapons. A bane weapon would actually be better against the Grimswarm than a death weapon, as a death weapon would only apply to Adept, or Ranger, etc, while a Bane weapon would apply to all trolls, (Or orcs, giants if there is a orc/giant bane weapon).

Still, with the RETARDLY high number of rangers that spawn in all camps, a Ranger death weapon would be fairly useful against the swarm.

[Durgrimst]

Ahh... OK, I know what you are talking about now, there was a big thread on those not too long ago.

[Borismere]

The factor of padding won't alter the numbers since it's applied to both claid and awl-pike. In all instances, the awl-pikes consitently gives lower crit threshold numbers regardless. Further, at plate, the awl-pike has a advantage of over 120 points over the claid.

[Ulkov]

I can't say, number wise, what the best option is. I can say that I've hunted warcamps solo using berserk. I've seen Madmountan hunt warcamps solo. I use a perfect star, he uses a variety of THW, typically claids or something weighted similar.

I come back 9/10 times from my solo zerk hunts alive and a little roughed up. Mad usualy comes back alive and hardly scratched.

Just from what I've seen, looks like claids are still more apt to finish the job quicker and keep you alive longer.

But then, I've never seen anyone zerking with twin perfect stars.

[Khariz]

The factor of padding won't alter the numbers since it's applied to both claid and awl-pike. In all instances, the awl-pikes consitently gives lower crit threshold numbers regardless. Further, at plate, the awl-pike has a advantage of over 120 points over the claid.

Dude, I'm like 2 posts away from getting hostile with you. You don't know what you are talking about.

Raw Damage is NOT then end all be all in this game. Unless you plan on killing every mob in the game by bleeding it to death, your numbers are irrelevant.

Any time you can kill a creature doing a 108 enroll, 30 damage, and it results in a death, that's WIN! Doing 280 damage and doing the same crit is impressive and all, but who cares?

You are looking at the wrong numbers. Don't look at Raw Damage and Damage Factor. Look at Crit Tables and Crit ranks versus different parts of the body. Then, after you've done all that, add 40 points of pure crit weighting onto the result of the claidhmore's hits and you have something rediculous going on that an awl-pike cannot do.

Awl-pikes have ZERO crit weighting. What you are talking about is akin to comparing a Awl-pike versus a non-weighted two handed sword, not a claidhmore. There, yes, an awl-pike is the WTFPWNSAUCE. But against the 40 points of weighting on a claid? Not even in the same universe.

Now you have to keep in mind that all other variables have to be the same. You can't thrust the awl-pike at an eyeball, and swing the claid at a neck. Punctures get better crit ranks than crush on some places, and vice versa. It's not all directly comperable.

What I'm saying though is, take the raw damage hit from both a 4x perfect awl-pike and a 4x new style claid, and *almost never* will you get a higher crit rank on *any* part of the body with the awl-pike. Yes, almost never.

[Fallen]

Those Awl-pikes, if your in GoS will be HCW.

[Khariz]

Those Awl-pikes, if your in GoS will be HCW.

That's a little bit better. There's still quite a difference betweeen 10 and 40. That's a bunch of crit ranks.

[thefarmer]

...

Stop feeding the Lysander clone.

[Borismere]

Khariz,you're not understanding what I mean. I'am talking about crit death and crit killing. It is easier to crit kill with a 10x perfect awl w/hcw then a 4x claid. The numbers have been done over and over again. It was either in the mechanics folder or here forget which. Anyhow it came out so that for skin and leather the 4x claid had a minor advantage (lower endroll to crit kill) but the arguement was this didn't matter because a warrior would almost always hit above this very low number (like 108 as you described). Plus, it was far outweighed especially versus chain and very especially versus plate where the awl-pike was leaps and bounds better.

[Khariz]

Khariz,you're not understanding what I mean. I'am talking about crit death and crit killing. It is easier to crit kill with a 10x perfect awl w/hcw then a 4x claid. The numbers have been done over and over again. It was either in the mechanics folder or here forget which. Anyhow it came out so that for skin and leather the 4x claid had a minor advantage (lower endroll to crit kill) but the arguement was this didn't matter because a warrior would almost always hit above this very low number (like 108 as you described). Plus, it was far outweighed especially versus chain and very especially versus plate where the awl-pike was leaps and bounds better.

Oh, so now its a 10x hcw perfect awl-pike versus a 4x claid? I was comparing a 4x perfect awl pike to a 4x claid. That's a bit more apples to apples.

But even then, you are weakening your own argument by the above post. If we grant that low endrolls aren't going to be happening, the critting scales up appropriately. So a 250 or a 350 endroll, whatever. Same endrolls taken into account the claidhmore is *almost always*, on EVERY armor type, going to get a better crit, hit for hit. The only way a 10x awl-pike is superior is the chance that you will get +40 higher endrolls on average compared to the claidhmore, which...accounts for maybe one crit rank in what we are talking about. The fact that the weighting on the claidhmore could count for 5 crit ranks alone...

Just give it up. Compare the Awl-pike to something meaningful. Compare say a 10x perfect hcw mattock to a 10x perfect hcw awl-pike. Then you have a point...on some armor types.

[thefarmer]

Locker contents of Vivaldi Al'Askani, the Half-Elf, as recorded in Icemule Trace:

On a weapon rack:
a haon-handled steel-studded maul
an enruned large ironwood maul
a tanik-handled mithril-studded maul
a rowan-hafted vultite-spiked maul
a rowan-handled imflass-spiked maul
a heavy razern-spiked maul
a maple-handled imflass-spiked maul
a flaxen mithril-spiked maul
a stout oak-handled maul with a rough gornar-chunk head
a maple-handled zorchar-studded maul
a heavy rhimar-spiked maul
a sleek white ora-studded maul
a big indigo invar maul
an ornate ora-studded maul
a beech-hafted drake-spiked maul
a large mithril-spiked maul
a light grey steel-studded maul
a bone-handled mithglin-studded maul
a bone-handled white ora-studded maul
an onyx-hafted white ora-spiked maul
a mithril-studded maul
a teak-handled ora maul
a teak-hafted glaes-spiked maul
an oak-handled steel-spiked maul
an onyx-handled ora-studded maul
a kakore-hafted vultite-spiked maul
a fine imflass-spiked maul
a roan imflass maul
a mithglin-spiked maul
a haon-handled drake-spiked maul
an onyx-handled gornar-studded maul
a chalk white imflass-spiked maul
a beech-handled vaalorn-spiked maul
a flimsy mithglin-studded maul
a sleek steel-studded maul
a bone-handled zorchar-studded maul
a light yellow mithril-spiked maul
a cedar-hafted vultite-studded maul

Mauls are better!

[Borismere]

This is the thread where I saw the numbers. http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=33517

Further 4x Oldstyle Claid = 50-60 mil?

10x perfect awl-pike = 30 mil maybe?

It's still not apples to apples.

*And I also understand that many of you have vested interests due to your weapon collections. But this thread won't change any silver or dollar values. People still like the feel and history behind claids. Im just trying to show which is mechanical better for newbs or people who want to do the 'best' berserking. Plus, I don't think a 10x perfect awl exists so obviously I can't be biased. Just want to know which is the 'best'.

[thefarmer]

A newb isn't going to have a 4x claid or a 10x hcp perfect awlpike.

If they did, they'd be spending hundreds of dollars buying it.. and they would then fail at life.

[Fallen]

There is no such thing as a 10x perfect awl-pike, let alone one that is perfect forge. That means your buying the points to do an 8x, 9x, and 10x enchant. You're looking at far, far more than 30 mill.

[Khariz]

Th

*And I also understand that many of you have vested interests due to your weapon collections. But this thread won't change any silver or dollar values. People still like the feel and history behind claids. Im just trying to show which is mechanical better for newbs or people who want to do the 'best' berserking. Plus, I don't think a 10x perfect awl exists so obviously I can't be biased. Just want to know which is the 'best'.

And I'm saying you are wrong.

That CHART is not taking into account the result of 40 points of crit weighting correctly. I could go on ad naseum about why, but I really don't feel like it.

Let me just put it this way: Crit-weighting has a randomness quality to it now. It's certainly true that on SOME levels of randomness, the 10x hcw perfect awl pike would get a better crit than a 4x old style claid, but depending on how high the weighting was on a given swing, it's definitely far from a concrete truth.

That guy's numbers...aren't even in the ballpark of being correct because of randomness.

[Borismere]

In his other posts he uses either the 30 point average (Randomizes between 20-40) or uses the full 40 points. He's using the 30 point average to get those numbers. Which I believe is accurate.

[Khariz]

In his other posts he uses either the 30 point average (Randomizes between 20-40) or uses the full 40 points. He's using the 30 point average to get those numbers. Which I believe is accurate.

Believe what you want. I'm gonna laugh at all the noobs using awl-pikes.

[Danical]

I diagree completely. Don't really feel like explaining why though. It's not really worth it. Trying to pin down "bests" never works. Suffice to say Mauls should be on that list, and much higher. Claidhmores should be #1.

You have to take into account that all these weapons become equal RT-wise with berserk. Where a greatsword-claidhmore loses superiority in the DF realm, it more than makes up for it with the ****** 40 ******* points of crit weighting.

Stars and Awl-pikes are laughable when you get the same number of hits per round with a Claidhmore. Raw numbers != best in this case. I don't need the best DF when with a endroll of 108, I can kill anything I hit in the head/neck/chest/back/eyes. Trust me.


I made this case long ago and argued the numbers somewhere. My money would be on claids because if a creature turtles and you're zerking, then you might not get a high endroll but it might be sufficient to activate the weighting.

Claids.

[Danical]

Just as an aside, all the research I've done on claids seems to indicate crit weighting being static at 40 points.

get claid, attack rat, collect 200 outcomes giving a rank 1 only, if you ever get a rank 4 crit -> random, else static.

Of course, and I'm sure Eric will point this out, I lost my data to actually prove this.

Someone replicate this . . .

[Borismere]

Theres really only one person who can settle this. That numbers guy starts with an L has a funny name.

[Danical]

That's Eric (i.e., Latrinsorm).

Jesus Titty Fucking Christ. You've said this before it's like you only trust him for anything quantitative in nature.

It's not rocket science, you have all the tools to figure it out yourself . . . go do it if you really care to know.

[Borismere]

Yeah but Latrinsorm just takes it to a whole nother level with pie charts and standard deviations and shit. I wonder what he does in RL.

[Borismere]

And Claids are most definelty random and not static at 40 points. Warden came out and said at least that much, but didn't say *what* the randomization was.

[Danical]

. . .

[Danical]

Ok champ, find that post . . .

In another thread, I pointed to his release of padding updates (both damage and crit) and weighting ( ONLY DAMAGE ) while Crit weighting remained the same.

EDIT: If you REALLY think he actually came out and said this, why is there such widespread disagreement? Everything he says gets posted/quoted/replied.

[SHAFT]

Wizards using focused implosion, FTW

[Danical]

Proof or it never happened.

[m444w]

And Claids are most definelty random and not static at 40 points. Warden came out and said at least that much, but didn't say *what* the randomization was.

Actually... he did. The bottom-most end is Max/2, uppermost is obviously max.

[Danical]

Post plz.

I'd love to see this as I've been keeping tabs on this since the III/IV switch.

[m444w]

I don't save posts, I just use my memory and jot notes down in notepad if it's really technical. I'm sure someone else can provide it though.

[Danical]

k.

[Khariz]

Well, here's the post you keep thinking of and referencing Vulvamancer:


Changes to Padding and Damage Weighting · on 1/29/2008 6:24:34 AM 1645


Some changes to damage padding, damage weighting, and critical padding have been implemented.

For the above mentioned benefits, there is no longer any randomization for ratings up through "somewhat" padded/weighted on the ASSESS scale. For items with greater ASSESS ratings, there is some variance in their benefit, but they will never provide less benefit than "somewhat" padded/weighted on a given strike.

This results in an improvement for all damage weighted/padded items (most noticeable at the lower ratings). By and large, it also results in an improvement for all critical padded items (again, most noticeable at the lower ratings), though there are some conditions in which items with high padding ("exceptional" ASSESS rating or higher) will see a small decrease in benefit.

Critical weighting is handled differently than damage weighting and has not been changed with this implementation.

Warden

[Danical]

Exactly; nothing has been changed.

and given what I've done with the data points. I'm skeptical it's anything but the full 40

[Danical]

Someone with premium membership can roll a lvl 1 character, write a script and just get the data points.

You could tell the GMs you're just collecting data and to turn off the exp if you're worried about getting fucked for scripting.

[Warriorbird]

The somewhat valid comparison would be between a 7x perfect pike and a 4x claidh.

Though... thanks to some folks doing their best to price up the claidh market... the prices are through the roof. You're looking at 50-70 mil versus 10 mil ish.

[Khariz]

The somewhat valid comparison would be between a 7x perfect pike and a 4x claidh.

Though... thanks to some folks doing their best to price up the claidh market... the prices are through the roof. You're looking at 50-70 mil versus 10 mil ish.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. As a claidhmore, and claid weighted weapon user, I know from more than 5000 hours logs that I have, that what I'm saying is correct.

Granted I only have a couple hundred hours of polearm logs to compare them too, none of which are 10x hcw polearms, but...there's a drastic difference between a claidhmore and a perfect awl-pike. It's not even in the same universe. Hell, I'd rather use a perfect mattock than a perfect awl-pike, from my numbers. Remember kids, it's not all about the raw numbers.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not questioning your numbers. I'm saying that your actions (and those of others) are making the comparison fall more towards the polearm due to cost/scarcity. Simu's lack of claidh releasing events also effects that.

[Durgrimst]

I am not basing this on any numbers or research at all, but dual perfect stars would be unreal for berserk and nobody is really discussing hits, double swings w/ HCW may beat out a claid. I love my THWs, but that would be unreal to watch. That is the goal for my little paladin I just made, 2x perfect stars.

[Warriorbird]

I'm curious if that wouldn't be better.

[AestheticDeath]

"You could tell the GMs you're just collecting data and to turn off the exp if you're worried about getting fucked for scripting."

You told me this once, and I tried it, but they will not do that for you. If you script and get caught afk your a goner.

If you script while at the keyboard there is no problem.

You just have to man up and put the time into researching it.

[Borismere]

Everyone knows about Crit randomization. It's always been like since the III to IV shift and there was a huge whine about it since that time. Even Khariz stated there was randomization. Theres countless posts on this site where people like Latrin said it's very difficult to gauge GoS weighting applying to crit weighted weapons due to crit randomization. Thats already a given. How long have you been playing? (not trying to be rude, but if you werent around for GSIII I could understand).

Anyhow, noone knows the exact randomization but most people believe it's either 1-40 full randomization or max/2- max crit randomization. All claid calcs were using the favorable max/2-max crit randomization.

Again, people should use whatever weapon they are comfortable with and not be deterred by any calculations. But this is just an academic study by the equations we know to determine which is 'best'. To be frank, my gut tells me the dual wield perfect stars will be the absolute best although I haven't done any numbers on this. Mainly because you're getting double the attacks.

But as a general rule of thumb if you can reach the rank 9 crit weighting with 1 star swing then most definetly dual wield stars would be best amongst all your weapon choices. If you can't do that then get a perfect awl-pike or claid.

[Danical]

Learn the difference between crit randomization and fucking crit weighting.

You make me cringe.

CRIT WEIGHTING is hard to pinpoint because of CRIT RANDOMIZATION.

EDIT: I hate you.

[Danical]

I've been playing X + 1 days; where X = the number of days you've been playing.

Suck on that.

(but srsly 94/95)

[Danical]

"You could tell the GMs you're just collecting data and to turn off the exp if you're worried about getting fucked for scripting."

You told me this once, and I tried it, but they will not do that for you. If you script and get caught afk your a goner.

If you script while at the keyboard there is no problem.

You just have to man up and put the time into researching it.

I can't speak to that, I didn't have a problem doing that but it's more than likely the right GM at the right time.

[Borismere]

As you can tell by the damage weighting/padding issue. Lets go through it logically:

Damage weighting padding was griped about being way way too underpowered/worthless especially relative to crit weighting/padding thus Warden made it so the randomization for damage pad/weight were less random in order to somewhat moderate it's effectivness versus it's crit weighted/padded kin (of course it hasn't crit padding/weighting is still light years better). The crit weighting/padding were kept the same (random) for obvious reasons.

[Danical]

As you can tell by the damage weighting/padding issue. Lets go through it logically:

Damage weighting padding was griped about being way way too underpowered/worthless especially relative to crit weighting/padding thus Warden made it so the randomization for damage pad/weight were less random in order to somewhat moderate it's effectivness versus it's crit weighted/padded kin (of course it hasn't crit padding/weighting is still light years better). The crit weighting/padding were kept the same (random) for obvious reasons.

You did see that crit padding was changed while crit weighting was not.

If you've got access to a premium account, make a lvl 1 character and do what I said. Otherwise, there's really no point arguing what we feel is correct.

Agreed?

[Borismere]

Dude, listen go through it in your mind again. All the damage weighting padding crit padding ( I re-read the warden post) has been changed to make them more powerful by making them *less* randomized as per the Warden post. Crit Weighting was *not changed* because they were already powerful. So the only way they can keep them less powerful is by randomizing them. Do you get it?

[Borismere]

Further, I know for a absolute fact that Warden stated that crit weighting is was randomized. I remember this because after I read it, I fixskilled out of THE. Latrin,Khariz and a host of others here also know this (the one guy in this thread also vouched for this), this is very common knowledge for people who follow GS mechanics. What is NOT common knowledge is how the weighting is randomized. If you go to Krakiipedia it states it's either 1 to max or max/half to max. The first is very not favourable the second not so much. It's up to you to believe which it is.

[Danical]

Further, I know for a absolute fact that Warden stated that crit weighting is was randomized. I remember this because after I read it, I fixskilled out of THE. Latrin,Khariz and a host of others here also know this (the one guy in this thread also vouched for this), this is very common knowledge for people who follow GS mechanics. What is NOT common knowledge is how the weighting is randomized. If you go to Krakiipedia it states it's either 1 to max or max/half to max. The first is very not favourable the second not so much. It's up to you to believe which it is.

Prove it. AWWWWWW :(

I love how you say common knowledge yet you can't actually point to a post or provide any evidence. Also, while KP is a great resource, I've already shown how it's inaccurate in other threads.

SWING AND A MISS!


Dude, listen go through it in your mind again. All the damage weighting padding crit padding ( I re-read the warden post) has been changed to make them more powerful by making them *less* randomized as per the Warden post. Crit Weighting was *not changed* because they were already powerful. So the only way they can keep them less powerful is by randomizing them. Do you get it?

You crack me up. You're using necessity without any evidence. Radical.

If you've got access to a premium account, PM me the details and I'll settle this once and for all. You have my word I won't fuck with anything on your account other than the creation and subsequent deletion of the extra character.

[Warriorbird]

I don't doubt claidhmores are much better. Their availability is lower though.

[Durgrimst]

2x perfect stars, posts please......

[Danical]

The problem with 2x stars is the same with Awl-pikes.

If the creature turtles, you're not going to get much of an outcome. Maybe a rank 1 or 2 crit rank. At which point, the claid would still be better.

JUST SAYING.

[Khariz]

The problem with 2x stars is the same with Awl-pikes.

If the creature turtles, you're not going to get much of an outcome. Maybe a rank 1 or 2 crit rank. At which point, the claid would still be better.

JUST SAYING.

tru dat

[Durgrimst]

ok....

2x perfect stars + Paladin = serious AS, flares, and just general berserk coolness

[Danical]

ok....

2x perfect stars + Paladin = serious AS, flares, and just general berserk coolness

Sorry :(

Skill Name: Berserk
Mnemonic: berserk
Hostile: Yes
Stamina Cost: 20 to attempt activation and 10 per round. (-8 Rank 1, -6 Rank 2, -4 Rank 3, - 2 Rank 4).
Other Requirements: None.
Available to: Warriors.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 2
Rank 2: (Squares) 3
Rank 3: (Squares) 4
Rank 4: (Squares) 5
Rank 5: (Squares) 6
Description: Attempt to go into a blind berserker rage. Upon a successful berserk, you will temporarily lose control of your combat actions and attack any target within range every five seconds. A bonus to your Attack Strength (AS) will be applied based on the number berserk ranks you have. If you are stunned, webbed, or bound during the course of your berserk, you will attempt to break these hinderances. You may also attempt to start a berserk while in one of those states.

[Durgrimst]

ok...

mstrike would be sweet though

And in the case of Mad who does a lot of camps with a mage, dual stars + ewave would have to = win

[Khariz]

ok...

mstrike would be sweet though

And in the case of Mad who does a lot of camps with a mage, dual stars + ewave would have to = win

The mage that hunts with me never casts e-wave. Most cause he doesn't need to. We kill shit too fast to need mass effect spells.

[Durgrimst]

LOL, I know Mad, I have done the camps with you, but I meant that in the case that they turtle, ewave would open them back up to some good hits again.

[Khariz]

LOL, I know Mad, I have done the camps with you, but I meant that in the case that they turtle, ewave would open them back up to some good hits again.

That's true, I suppose. Though the ones that everyone has the worst DFs on, the plate classes, seem to have cman mobility2. Always sucks swinging at a grim that you knocked down and it rolling to its feet.

[Danical]

Obviously, Call Wind would be a better spell (for the force stance).

IS I RITE?

[Durgrimst]

IS I RITE?

NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[m444w]

You can just disarm the turtled spell-casters, no runestaff = dead. The RT from call wind wouldn't do jack against the warriors and such, because they have mobility. A stunning spell (908, 435, Aura of arkati, Sonic disruption...) would be the best choice.

[Danical]

Can't disarm when you're zerking. Which is the whole point of contention.

[Borismere]

Latrin may not be perfect. But I'll definetly take his word over any of you fools.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21887&highlight=crit+weighting+random

[Warriorbird]

It really helps your mechanical argument when you insult people.

[Khariz]

Latrin may not be perfect. But I'll definetly take his word over any of you fools.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21887&highlight=crit+weighting+random

I'd just like to point out that I've never posted otherwise in this thread. My thousands of hours of logs parsed show unarguable randomization.

[Durgrimst]

randomization = ???

claids = win!!

If you don't believe that then you are dumb.