Lock/trap difficulty ratings: OOC or IC?

[DaCapn]

Is quoting numeric difficulty ratings of locks/traps IC or OOC?

I'm of the mind that if you want to reference it, you should consider calling it "a very well-crafted lock" as this refers to a very defined range. Anyway, post your opinion. If for some reason you don't know what I'm talking about, here's the messaging:

You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
(Your wounds make the task more difficult.)
You make an excellent attempt (d100=94).
You struggle with the trunk. As you do, you get a sense that the trunk has a very well-crafted lock (-630 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
[You have 4 repetitions remaining.]
Roundtime: 14 sec.

[NocturnalRob]

locksmiths talking to locksmiths in whispers or guildspeak...i don't mind the numeric help. even without the OOC command.

but i tend to think that it's someone annoying when someone hands me a box and then says aloud, "It's a -340 scarab that I can't get. Help please?"

i mean, it's much the same as someone saying, "My CS is really struggling at 287, so there's no way that I can hunt blah blah blah."

Numeric indicators are OOC. That is all.

[DaCapn]

Like this?
Nysin says, "I did slip on a 212 scales last night... needless to say it wasnt pretty."
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Nysin, "The trap values are considered OOC typically."
Nysin says, "Actualy they are thief lingo or at least for my years its been that way."

[NocturnalRob]

Like this?
Nysin says, "I did slip on a 212 scales last night... needless to say it wasnt pretty."
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Nysin, "The trap values are considered OOC typically."
Nysin says, "Actualy they are thief lingo or at least for my years its been that way."

one, Nysin is clearly a clown.
two, if you're going to interact in that manner, at least ask them to use Guildspeak or whisper.
three, "thief lingo?" o rly?

Your gut is right on this, Capn. Try not to introduce quantitative elements into the game (unless you're talking about length of time for spells, etc) that are directly related to the innate mechanics. I think it ruins the illusion.

[Latrinsorm]

It's a tough call. Thief-lingo does suggest that thieves (i.e. the characters) somehow came up with a numeric scale the same way people have made a numeric scale for anything else in the universe. At the same time, I agree that it's jarring and for that reason alone probably should be kept quiet.

[BigWorm]

It's a tough call. Thief-lingo does suggest that thieves (i.e. the characters) somehow came up with a numeric scale the same way people have made a numeric scale for anything else in the universe. At the same time, I agree that it's jarring and for that reason alone probably should be kept quiet.

This has been a debate for a long time. It's generally accepted that its not OOC in whispers and some people are even cool with it if its done in guild speak.

I think the "tumblers" method of describing it out loud is the best. Thus a -650 has about six and a half tumblers, etc. It's kind of awkward but the best option I've seen put forth.

[Drew]

It's totally OOC, thief lingo is just for children who don't want to be told how to act.

It would be like me saying 'I have a 530 AS' and when corrected saying "Oh I'm just speaking in battle lingo".

[Xaerve]

But quoting huge numbers makes your epeen grow!!

[Zarli]

I dont mind it spoken in whispers and even guild, but yeah it's just a little too much for out loud. Honestly the tumblers thing is ok, but it irritates me a little too. I guess if you have to say it outloud that's the best way to do it, but why say it outloud at all. I always switch to guild speak or whisper, err unless I typo and am typing too fast, I wont say it's never happened lol.

[Deathravin]

I use the tumblers-talk too, but for traps it's a bit harder... Not many people know exactly how hard a "very difficult trap" is... Unless they just keep Tsoran's list up all the time.

[Gan]

For the most part its OOC.

Occasionally I'll speak in guild speak with a rating if I'm working with a youngster if I dont whisper it - which is my preferred method.

[BigWorm]

I use the tumblers-talk too, but for traps it's a bit harder... Not many people know exactly how hard a "very difficult trap" is... Unless they just keep Tsoran's list up all the time.

A very difficult is right below -200 or so. ;)

[CrystalTears]

Speaking the numbers outloud is OOC. It has been for as long as I've been playing. Just use the terminology (a very difficult trap, etc) and whisper/guildspeak the info if someone wants you to give specifics.

I definitely don't like the tumbler method because it's too much like chapters when referring to training. Ugh, hate that with a passion. Saw some girl say something like she had 4 seasons and 17 chapters until she could learn some spell. I realize she's just trying to keep it IC as much as possible, but that just sounds ridiculous to me. I can only imagine the size book people at cap get.

[Allereli]

I dont mind it spoken in whispers and even guild, but yeah it's just a little too much for out loud. Honestly the tumblers thing is ok, but it irritates me a little too. I guess if you have to say it outloud that's the best way to do it, but why say it outloud at all. I always switch to guild speak or whisper, err unless I typo and am typing too fast, I wont say it's never happened lol.

The tumblers thing, which I've never heard before now, is only slightly better than people saying "seasons" for levels, which is fucking horrible. What's a half a tumbler?

edit: JINX ON CT

[NocturnalRob]

What's a half a tumbler?


-50.

and it's ooc

/thread

[Allereli]

-50.

and it's ooc

/thread

no, i mean is it physically possible realistically to have half a tumbler in a lock? a tumbler is a tumbler is a tumbler, I don't think they come in halves.

[Gan]

-50.

and it's ooc*

/thread

*If its spoken aloud in plain speak. The issue becomes cloudy if you're in the east tower and hear someone speak it in guild speak (assuming you're a rogue). If you're not a rogue you'd have no idea what was said.

[NocturnalRob]

no, i mean is it physically possible realistically to have half a tumbler in a lock? a tumbler is a tumbler is a tumbler, I don't think they come in halves.

not in the traditional sense. i think what brikus was referring to was the fact that people refer to lock difficulty by "tumbler." one tumbler = -100 difficulty, etc


*If its spoken aloud in plain speak. The issue becomes cloudy if you're in the east tower and hear someone speak it in guild speak (assuming you're a rogue). If you're not a rogue you'd have no idea what was said.

correct. should have footnoted it. unless in OOC whisper and I SUPPOSE in guildspeak, it's uncool

[AnticorRifling]

If they were cypher locks you could say something like "Man this thing must have at least 650 different combinations. Good luck."

Using the -650 is OOC in my opinion.

[Allereli]

not in the traditional sense. i think what brikus was referring to was the fact that people refer to lock difficulty by "tumbler." one tumbler = -100 difficulty, etc

Yes I understand that it's an attempt to make it IC, but it still sucks because there's no such physical thing as a half a tumbler

[DaCapn]

I'm okay with the tumbler reference, personally. On one hand you're taking an OOC number and referencing it IC but you're using it to quantify something that your character knows (and applying it to a range) so it pretty much balances out. On a level of simple logic and human sensitivity, could a person really tell the difference between a -334 trap and a -335 trap?

I think more than anything else it's directness and phrasing. Someone saying "heal please" isn't being OOC necessarily, it's just crap RP. There's also guild work. People ask "what rank are you in footstomp?" and it feels like it's in bad taste. But really we ranks in martial arts the same way in real life. It's just phrasing.

Edit: I consider a hard line myself, if something is OOC, only refer to it in OOC whisper or directed OOC thoughts on the amunet. You might just consider this a matter of semantics, but I think it doesn't make it less OOC if you say it in guildspeak. Maybe you consider it to be OOC when spoken in common just because non-rogues wouldn't know what you're talking about. I consider it a number where no one would know what you're talking about.

[Allereli]

I thought that the tumbler reference was just rounding/truncating at the hundreds place and taking that digit as the value. I'm okay with that, personally. On one hand you're taking an OOC number and referencing it IC but you're using it to quantify something that your character knows (and applying it to a range) so it pretty much balances out. On a level of simple logic and human sensitivity, could a person really tell the difference between a -334 trap and a -335 trap?

I think more than anything else it's directness and phrasing. Someone saying "heal please" isn't being OOC necessarily, it's just crap RP. There's also guild work. People ask "what rank are you in footstomp?" and it feels like it's in bad taste. But really we ranks in martial arts the same way in real life. It's just phrasing.


I feel guild ranks are different and it's fine to talk about numbers since an NPC character (the training administrator) takes you through the process.

[CrystalTears]

I feel guild ranks are different and it's fine to talk about numbers since an NPC character (the training administrator) takes you through the process.
Agreed. As for the tumblers, I agree that it wouldn't make sense to use half tumblers and the like. [This thread is the first I've ever heard someone use it.]

I just draw the line when you try to put numbers into a qualifier. "Pages" for experience, "chapters" for 1k of experience, and "seasons" for levels just seems far-fetched and unrealistic. And honestly, there's really no reason to mention any of that outloud anyway.

[NocturnalRob]

And honestly, there's really no reason to mention any of that outloud anyway.

pretty much. use ooc whisper.

ooc whisper gets me all hot anyway. because it means you're talking about something naughty.

[DaCapn]

Be wary of a person with an avatar of a good looking girl and a gender-ambiguous account name like "Rob" talking about getting hot.

Tell-tale signs of bad things to come.

[Ashliana]

I try to use OOC whispers for lock ratings. To me, they're completely OOC. Somewhat similar, I think, are people in TSC saying:

"I have a bunch of minors! Help?"

It's a direct reference to the game's feedback. Yes, you could say, in-character, "I have some minor scratches on my arms.. can anyone take a look, please?" but saying "HELP! I HAS MINORS!" is different, to me, than using healing slang like "Would someone help me with my twitchies" or "I've got lots of bleeders."

I don't tend to yell at people, but I just choose not to heal people that either ask OOC or simply say "Healing?," looking for a scripter.

[NocturnalRob]

Be wary of a person with an avatar of a good looking girl and a gender-ambiguous account name like "Rob" talking about getting hot.

Tell-tale signs of bad things to come.

I'm a guy, I swear!!

[Some Rogue]

I'm a guy, I swear!!

But willing to play a girl for the right price.

[NocturnalRob]

But willing to play a girl for the right price.

well obviously...i'm flexible

[CrystalTears]

well obviously...i'm flexible
That's what he said.

[NocturnalRob]

That's what he said.

damnit!! ::flail::

[Allereli]

well obviously...i'm flexible

Rob

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/vankrasn/flexible.jpg

[NocturnalRob]

that's beyond disturbing

[LadyLaphrael]

Tumblers...admittedly, I'm guilty of using it from time to time. But yes, there's no such thing as half a tumbler, unless you wanted to get really ungainly with something like "six full tumblers and then a quarter turn on the last" for a -625 lock. Trap sizes? I pretend to count scales and legs (for scarabs) if I feel the need to quote numbers out loud. "I'd say there's about 450 little sharp scales on the outside of this box...how'd you not notice?"

Thief-lingo? I'm sure that's all well and good, but I'm not a thief.

If they were really an IC system, Reilly and company would probably say "So, tell me, in thief-lingo, what size lock you can get?"
-310
"Nope, try again."
No, really... -310.
"Nope, try again."
Seriously, -310. You wanna take a look?
"Nope, try again."
... and so on

[Vesi]

Numbers said outloud or in guild are OOC. Give a whisper... prefer ooc whisper but won't go nuts if it's ic whisper. Never heard of tumblers until today, so wouldn't have known what someone was talking about.

Ironically, when I started, I was told to use pages and chapters for exp. and levels. I never have and think it sounds silly, but you can maybe assume those people were taught that way. Least they aren't saying the number.

As for that contortionist, bet he can reach anywhere that itches. Must be handy.

[BigWorm]

Numbers said outloud or in guild are OOC. Give a whisper... prefer ooc whisper but won't go nuts if it's ic whisper. Never heard of tumblers until today, so wouldn't have known what someone was talking about.

Ironically, when I started, I was told to use pages and chapters for exp. and levels. I never have and think it sounds silly, but you can maybe assume those people were taught that way. Least they aren't saying the number.

As for that contortionist, bet he can reach anywhere that itches. Must be handy.

I'm pretty sure that during LFM training the footpads use the tumblers terminology, though I don't think there's any mention of half tumblers.

[LadyLaphrael]

Ah, touche...IC usage of the tumbler terminology is in the lock creation.

Materials in hand, you concentrate on the task of molding a -5 lock. After a short time, you find yourself with a primitive lock assembly in your hand. You select a lock housing from the workbench and slide the lock assembly inside.
Roundtime: 37 sec.

Materials in hand, you concentrate on the task of molding a -105 lock. After a short time, you find yourself with an average single tumbler lock assembly in your hand. You select a lock housing from the workbench and slide the average lock assembly inside.
Roundtime: 43 sec.

Materials in hand, you concentrate on the task of molding a -150 lock. After a short time, you find yourself with a superior single tumbler lock assembly in your hand. You select a lock housing from the workbench and slide the superior lock assembly inside.
Roundtime: 51 sec.

Materials in hand, you concentrate on the task of molding a -195 lock. After a short time, you find yourself with a superb single tumbler lock assembly in your hand. You select a lock housing from the workbench and slide the superb lock assembly inside.
Roundtime: 37 sec.

So, if you really want to talk about lock sizes and keep as IC as possible, the tumbler system makes sense if you deal with the fractions in terms of average, superior, superb. You get similar results as you get higher and higher locks created. Two tumblers, three tumblers, etc. Two and a half tumblers? Nah. A superior two-tumbler lock? Sure.

[Zarli]

You know.. there's just zero chance I'm going to say two and a half tumblers, I'd rather stick the lockpick in my eye. I'm also not going to pull up a chart to say it's a superior single lock tumbler, because that changes all the time with skill. When my rogue makes a -150 at 67 trains, it's easy or something like that, not superior. So I'm going to just have to be a poor RP'er and say -150 in guild speak or whispers. :l

[AestheticDeath]

You can't hide behind the guild speak lingo being ok IMO. Any profession has access to picking/disarming.

I just find it laughable that people try to hide game mechanics that are such an integral part of it all.

Obviously it is important for RP, but also kinda asinine.

If you want true RP, go somewhere with no numbers.

I find it perfectly proper to have number scales attributed to actions or other things. Which is why I don't try and RP with the elite people.

edit when I have to reference the size I do it in whisper, never guild speak - and I dont normally bother typing the ooc thing... game didn't have that forever

I always played that whispers are OOC. Private message between two players, not characters. Or you have whatever vrb that is that makes whispers visible to others if you want to RP whispers between characters.

[Latrinsorm]

If you want true RP, go somewhere with no numbers.I would suggest that it's impossible to legitimately roleplay GemStone without numbers. For instance, combat: the crit messages do nothing to indicate the relative or absolute skill levels of the attacker or defender, but I'm pretty sure everyone here could recognize Bruce Lee being more skilled than Latrinsorm in martial arts. This is not to say that Bruce Lee had a number in his mind describing his level of prowess, but merely that it would be patently obvious who was vastly superior. The most concise way to communicate that in a game is with numbers; after that it's up to the players to treat the information appropriately.

[SolitareConfinement]

i dunno ive always used the description of the lock or trap instead of numbers....such as if i miss or can't touch it.....


"this very intricate trap here is beyond my skill i think" or something of the likes

or if i fumble and set it off...like a scales trap...

"wow that scales trap was pretty tight....i just barely lift the lid so i could cut the cord and BAM thats the last thing i remember!"

or something like that its not hard to keep numbers out of it really you can get your point across being a mediocre RPer and keep it IC

[Zarli]

If you miss a trap and you're speaking to the general population, saying that type of thing is fine and I can't think of any time ever that I've said anything like "whoa I didn't get that -700 lock!" or whatever, actually most of the time I just roll my eyes or grumble and dont say anything about it. If I fumble a trap, it'd be something along the lines of "fingers slipped, sorry".

If I'm talking to another locksmith, I'm not going to try and figure out some creative IC way to say -700 lock or -400 trap for whatever reason I have for mentioning it to begin with. It just seems silly to me, but then some of the ways people RP seem silly to me anyway so take that for what you will.

[LadyLaphrael]

When my rogue makes a -150 at 67 trains, it's easy or something like that, not superior.

-150 lock, regardless of what level you make it at (75th train for me), is still going to be called a superior one tumbler lock. But if I'm reading you right, from your(s and my) perspective, anything under a -800 lock is "easy." That's the major drawback to a relative-based lock/trap size description. To me, there's only really three difficulties of locks - easy, doable, wedge-fodder - and three difficulties of traps - easy, doable, and pray-to-the-gods.

[Zarli]

Yes, sorry bad wording but you got the point. I find it pretty stupid for her to call a -150 lock superior, it wouldn't make RP sense for her at all.