PDA

View Full Version : Lich Form - Penalties Versus Rewards



Fallen
06-26-2008, 12:15 PM
After reviewing Virilneus's website on the topic of Lich Form as a spell or sorcerer ability, and briefly discussing the idea with several sorcerers I decided to draft an analysis of potential penalties, and benefits that could be applied to the spell. In my opinion, a spell which only allows us to shuffle our corpse back to town is not worth any spell slot. Also, I am not in favor of any spell that only becomes of use after the sorcerer has died.

What I suggest is a multiple function spell which is either activated willingly by the sorcerer with two set outcomes, he lives at the end of the duration, or he dies at the end of the duration, and a form of the spell to be used only after the sorcerer has died. Balancing this spell in accordance with the above is by no means an easy feat. This is why I decided to list all of the possible factors I could imagine being involved with the spell, divided into Minor and Major Penalties, Minor and Major Rewards, and finally Balancing Factors.

While I expect and understand most of you who read this will feel have their eyes glaze over as they quickly skim through the list, I would ask that you consider what benefits you would like for the spell, and what penalties you would be willing to accept to gain them.


Possible Penalties - Minor

Loss of Health Regeneration - While in Lich Form one would lose the ability to regenerate health naturally. Blood loss in Lich Form may lead to termination of spell effect. Possible Mitigating factor would be use of Blood Burst to return health.

Loss of Stamina Regeneration - Minor Inconvenience to those outside of Sunfist.

Loss of Enhancive Benefits - All enhancive items would be ineffectual while in Lich form.

Loss of Spirit Regeneration - Minor Inconvenience to those outside of COL.

Loss of ability to activate scrolls and magical items - Self explanatory even if it makes little sense.

Minor Stat/General penalties during/Post lich form - Penalties to specific stats or skills while in the Lich Form, and/or after the use of the spell upon either resurrection or the spell's termination.

Loss of ability to absorb experience - Possibly considered a major penalty, the Lich would be unable to absorb the experience he earns while in the state, though is still able to accrue and keep experience earned upon termination of spell's effect, or resurrection with a properly trained cleric.

Clerical resurrections provide no experience - Anyone who willingly sacrifices their life to assume a Lich Form resulting in death could be able to be resurrected, but with no experience being provided to the cleric/Paladin.

Inability to attack undead - To be implemented in conjunction with undead ignoring sorcerers in Lich Form.

Worn item slot - a worn item slot would be occupied should the sorcerer need a reliquary to activate the spell.

Possible Penalties - Major

Loss of Mana Regeneration - Crippling to any combat application of the spell. Use of alchemy potions for mana a possible mitigating factor, as well as the Sacrifice ability.

Inability to be Healed via empath or herbs - Loss of limb, head wounds, or nerve injuries coupled with the inability to be healed would render the Lich powerless. Possible mitigating factors would be herb healing only, or empathic healing with no experience gain.

Loss of ability to gain/retain experience - Debatably the most significant penalty possible, the sorcerer would be in no way able to gain/accrue/retain experience while in the Lich Form, even with a properly trained cleric providing resurrection.

Death - The use of Lich form in any aspect of the spell, or in a form where use of the spell results in automatic and unavoidable loss of life at the spell's termination.

Auto decay - Termination of the spell in general, or in a specific form of the spell results in an automatic and unavoidable forced decay.

Loss of spell circles - The inability to cast from secondary circles.

Loss of ability to cast - The inability to cast from ANY circle.

Major stat/general penalties During/Post Lich form - Significant penalties to Stats/Skills while in Lich Form, and/or a period of time after use.

Inability to use societal skills - Most appropriate for Voln, though would likely be seen as unfair if applied only to their society. Stupid Volners.

Possible Benefits - Minor

Sheer Fear Resistance - Moderate to Significant resistance to the Sheer Fear Mechanic.

Necromancy spell boosts - Boost to spells such as Blood Burst, Pain Infliction, Disease (In the future), and Animate Dead.

Lack of blood loss - Rank 2+ wounds cause no blood loss.

Minor Stat/Skill boosts - Minor boosts to some stats and skills while in Lich Form.

Lich Form only roleplaying enhancements - Verbs, appearance, etc

Resistance to Cold based attacks - Moderate to Significant resistance to all cold based attacks.

Increased Capabilities of Animates - Duration extensions, Ability to animate without components, Lich Form only Animate Dead commands, verbs, etc.

Possible Benefits - Major

Resistance/Immunity to Stuns - Either the ability shake stuns, or be completely invulnerable to stuns and stunning attacks/spells.

Immunity to cold based attacks - Complete immunity to all cold based attacks.

Resistance/Immunity to Crit kills - Significant resistance, or outright immunity to be killed by a critical blow, aside from perhaps back crits.

Immunity to Sheer Fear - Complete immunity to the Sheer Fear mechanic.

Significant Stat/Skill boosts - Significant enhancive like gains to skills and/or stats.

Lich Form only attacks and spells - Unique maneuver type attacks, drastically augmented AS for bare-handed attacks like pound, ensnare, etc, and access to unique spells.

Ability to activate after death - The primary purpose of the spell; to be activated after the sorcerer has died.

Ability to cast through moderate wounds - Much like the Sunfist ability, the Lich would be able to cast through all rank 2 injuries.

Retention of Animate - The ability to keep your Animate, or immediately restore it to life after activating Lich Form while dead.

Undead Allies - Either complete exemption from undead attacks, and/or a sympathetic affect where undead turn on creatures who attack you while in Lich Form. Only reasonably implemented with the penalty of being unable to attack undead.

Balancing Factors

Restored/Increased function with Necromancy training - Spells, Mana/Spirit/Stamina regen, lessened penalty to stats while in use/recovery, unlocked abilities.

Necromancy lore adding to duration of spell - A flat duration modifier to the duration of the spells.

Components - The requirement for components to be used with some, or all forms of the spell. Components could be rare, expensive, or take a great deal of time to create. However, increased capibilies or benefits could be added with the use of components, or a reduction in penalties.

Guild Skill Augmentation - Abilities are enhanced or unlocked via a separate guild skill devoted to the spell.

Daily use restrictions - Much like Regeneration and Miracle, a lore modified usage restriction could be used to balance the spell.

Activation Restrictions - Only used after death, Must have 35 mana at time of death.

Alchemy Skill Augmentation - Alchemic potions could be either required for the process, or to enhance/unlock abilities, as well as reduce penalties.

Outstanding Concerns

Loss of Spells after death with inability to cast in Lich Form - If we lose all of our spells upon death, we would be unviable in any combat situation unless able to restore them in some way, or gain significant immunities or exclusions from forms of attack.

Evarin and his Mis'ri

justincredible
06-26-2008, 11:29 PM
I love the idea of a lich-form spell. !!NO ALCHEMY/COMPONENTS!!

I like the ideas of the crit resistance/invulnerability. Invulnerability makes more sense but balance this, balance that...Also the ability to cast through wounds would be amazing.

I see auto decay as a necessary side effect if you "die" while you're already dead

!!NO ALCHEMY!! I do not like the idea of tying in alchemy to the spell though. Actually I hate the idea of tying alchemy into the spell. If I wanted to script through mindless guild ranks I'd play warriors or rogues. Please, please, please no alchemy!!!!! I mean maybe you guys at the cap would like some way to give the spell more pizazz than 202 necro ranks can give but you'll master alchemy soon enough and then what?

!!!NO COMPONENTS!!! I already have a case for my scroll infusion, a tube for my animates, I'm begging, please no components. I'd like all sorcerers to be able to use this spell. I know GS is looking for silver sinks but let's not give them any ideas to further suck silvers from my pockets. And components lead to hours of gathering and preparing and tedium. Maybe not as simple as prep/cast but nothing like animates. Maybe some sort of quest to create your personal reliquary, which could be fun and grimswarmish. Gotta defeat some big bad-guy to get your special component, not run to icemule and gather stupid moon-whatevers...We're already losing xp with death decay, silvers with replacing deeds (how about it costs a deed to assume the form?) and recovering from death's sting with potions (quite expensive)

I do not like the idea of losing our spells upon transformation. I'd be hesitant to advocate anything that would require more work for staff, such as implementation of a whole new attack form.

I like the idea of no health regen. Herbs, empaths nothing. Also I'd reduce mana regen to death's sting level. Hell reduce all physical stats to what we'd have at harsh deaths sting. Maybe this is where alchemy can come in?

I don't like the xp ideas though. I see this as a form we could stay in for extended periods of time with enough xp/lores. Reverting to mortality once our corpse like bodies were in tatters.

We'd have to pick up all the vulnerabilities that undead have as well. Fire, voln signs, yadda yadda yadda.

I also think it would make sense if we were not allowed into town. Guards attack/kill on sight. If they don't like our demons in town I could just imagine what they'd do with walking/talking corpses. And Voln himself should strike you down if you even think of going to a courtyard.

Best spell idea I've ever heard of. Too good, makes too much sense, too much fun, too much rp potential = Simu hates it... And I'm sure Simu would like to come out with the nose-picker class before giving sorcerers something useful to enjoy.

Hell, why not just call it alternate form. Like we attune to an element let your lore training determine if you go lich or demon form?

Warriorbird
06-26-2008, 11:42 PM
Penalties - Inability to use Open Implode or Scroll Infusion while in Lich Form.

Fallen
06-27-2008, 10:00 AM
You're a silly, silly man, Warriorbird. But atleast you're consistent.

Warriorbird
06-27-2008, 10:06 AM
;)

In all honesty? Something like Lich Form could be awesome if done right. Simu hasn't done much towards attracting me back to playing in a while though.

Fallen
06-27-2008, 10:14 AM
>>>I love the idea of a lich-form spell. !!NO ALCHEMY/COMPONENTS!!

The question becomes how do you balance the spell so that it is actually worth casting without serious drawbacks? Few things are as dire as Alchemy and Guild skills to me, heh.


>>>I like the ideas of the crit resistance/invulnerability. Invulnerability makes more sense but balance this, balance that...Also the ability to cast through wounds would be amazing. >>

Invulnerability would likely only be available IF 1. You died at the end of the spell, 2. You could not gain experience while in Lich form, and/or 3. You had no offensive abilities while in Lich Form.

>>>>!!NO ALCHEMY!! I do not like the idea of tying in alchemy to the spell though. Actually I hate the idea of tying alchemy into the spell. If I wanted to script through mindless guild ranks I'd play warriors or rogues. Please, please, please no alchemy!!!!! I mean maybe you guys at the cap would like some way to give the spell more pizazz than 202 necro ranks can give but you'll master alchemy soon enough and then what? >>>

Thing is with alchemy, you can always buy other people's alchemy items and use them to augment your spell. I agree, I would rather not have the spell only be "useful" when alchemy is involved, but the GMs view of a useful spell, and most sorcerer's view differ wildly.

>>>!!!NO COMPONENTS!!! I already have a case for my scroll infusion, a tube for my animates, I'm begging, please no components. I'd like all sorcerers to be able to use this spell. I know GS is looking for silver sinks but let's not give them any ideas to further suck silvers from my pockets. And components lead to hours of gathering and preparing and tedium. Maybe not as simple as prep/cast but nothing like animates. Maybe some sort of quest to create your personal reliquary, which could be fun and grimswarmish. Gotta defeat some big bad-guy to get your special component, not run to icemule and gather stupid moon-whatevers...We're already losing xp with death decay, silvers with replacing deeds (how about it costs a deed to assume the form?) and recovering from death's sting with potions (quite expensive) >>>

Silver sinks are a sorcerer's bread and butter. ::Grin:: I think whether or not you like it, they are going to come. I would enjoy something that can be gathered through the normal course of the day. How about we power our Lich form by Sacrificing kills and hording their animus to use when needed? That way, we collect components for the spell, but we aren't foraging, or traversing the damned globe for fresh water.

>>>I do not like the idea of losing our spells upon transformation. I'd be hesitant to advocate anything that would require more work for staff, such as implementation of a whole new attack form. >>

I think this is where multiple forms of the spell would be in order. When you use the spell AFTER you're dead, you wouldn't be able to attack. You just shuffle your dead ass back to town and beg for a rezz. If you WILLINGLY assume the Lich Form, you get far more power, and you keep your spells.

>>>I like the idea of no health regen. Herbs, empaths nothing. Also I'd reduce mana regen to death's sting level. Hell reduce all physical stats to what we'd have at harsh deaths sting. Maybe this is where alchemy can come in? >>

Thing is, without the ability to ignore wounds, if you take an arm, nerve, or head wound, you're permanently out of the fight. That would REALLY REALLY suck if you have to die at the end of the spell. Something to ponder as to a work around.

I personally would like to see a potion made via alchemy that heals our animates when they are hurt. Obviously, you don't NEED this potion to enjoy the spel. It would just be a nice perk. You could then use this potion/powder/whatever on yourself when in lich form to heal your own wounds.

>>>>I don't like the xp ideas though. I see this as a form we could stay in for extended periods of time with enough xp/lores. Reverting to mortality once our corpse like bodies were in tatters. >>>

As is the recurring theme, without major trade-offs, you're not going to see worthwhile benefits.

>>>We'd have to pick up all the vulnerabilities that undead have as well. Fire, voln signs, yadda yadda yadda. >>>

Agreed on fire, not on Voln Signs. We wouldn't be undead in the traditional sense, as we are not Luukosian constructs, and our soul is not trapped within the body, but willingly placed there. The GMs will NEVER allow us to make, or become true undead because they don't want Voln becoming anti-sorcerer.

>>>I also think it would make sense if we were not allowed into town. Guards attack/kill on sight. If they don't like our demons in town I could just imagine what they'd do with walking/talking corpses. And Voln himself should strike you down if you even think of going to a courtyard. >>>

Hah. I could certainly see us not being able to go into town while under Lich Form, but that is a pretty drastic penalty. Without some sort of ability to illusion ourselves, this would have to come with MAJOR benefits, as the hassle would most likely keep most sorcerers from using the spell.

>>> Best spell idea I've ever heard of. Too good, makes too much sense, too much fun, too much rp potential = Simu hates it... And I'm sure Simu would like to come out with the nose-picker class before giving sorcerers something useful to enjoy. >>>

It is a fairly popular idea, but unless sorcerers are going to accept harsh consequences for assuming the form, the benefits will be as terrible as Minor Summoning.

>>>Hell, why not just call it alternate form. Like we attune to an element let your lore training determine if you go lich or demon form? >>>

I wouldn't be against that. Maybe a partial, or complete possession by a demon. I like it. I will have to see if I can come up with alternate list of benefits for assuming a demonic form. What do you think would make the most sense?

Fallen
06-27-2008, 10:17 AM
;)

In all honesty? Something like Lich Form could be awesome if done right. Simu hasn't done much towards attracting me back to playing in a while though.

WHAT ABOUT MONKSS?????

Asha
06-27-2008, 10:23 AM
Will never happen.
Even if it does the penalties to stop other professions crying and because it's the sorcerer way to die from your own spell will make it a waste of time and another reason for anyone but you and Virilneus to complain.

Fallen
06-27-2008, 10:33 AM
I'm not crazy about the idea, personally. I dont die very much at all anymore, and when I do, I immediately force decay. I've suggested alternatives for the spellslot, and will continue to do so until they are all implimented.

What I would like is a multi-use Mass/Focused attack spell, or a utility spell with the depth I proposed for Ensorcell. I haven't finished my idea for the Mass/Focused attack spell aside from Harbinger, but honestly, I have absolutely no hope in it being approved.

Something like Lich/Demonic form is possible, but if it sucks as much as Assume Aspect, I super don't want it.

crb
06-29-2008, 11:11 AM
I don't get the "Will never happen" folks.

In the end, it isn't that much different from 650, 1150, or 350.

BriarFox
06-29-2008, 03:24 PM
Something like Lich/Demonic form is possible, but if it sucks as much as Assume Aspect, I super don't want it.

Can we rangers give up Assume Aspect for Wolf Form? :(

Fallen
06-29-2008, 04:00 PM
No.

BriarFox
06-29-2008, 04:06 PM
No.

Fuck.

g++
06-30-2008, 10:51 AM
From a mechanics stand point it sounds pretty solid with a 1x per day usage added perhaps for kicks since they seem to do that to every decent 50th level spell. It does raise some questions about how this melds with the actual IG explanation of undead though. Supposedly being undead means you sold your soul to Luukos or something right? Would be kind of weird if you could be undead and then 20 seconds later be like "O hai!" at the statue no?

Fallen
06-30-2008, 11:39 AM
This wouldn't be a 50th level spell, it would be a 35th. If 750 wasn't Greater Demonic Summoning sorcerers would freak.

radamanthys
06-30-2008, 11:56 AM
From a mechanics stand point it sounds pretty solid with a 1x per day usage added perhaps for kicks since they seem to do that to every decent 50th level spell. It does raise some questions about how this melds with the actual IG explanation of undead though. Supposedly being undead means you sold your soul to Luukos or something right? Would be kind of weird if you could be undead and then 20 seconds later be like "O hai!" at the statue no

Luukos just happens to be the best necromancer evar. Necromancy lore gives sorcs the power, too. So we get to be mini luukoses.

zhelas
06-30-2008, 12:04 PM
Supposedly being undead means you sold your soul to Luukos or something right?

And this would be a bad thing?

Zhelas
Animating Volners FTW!!!

justincredible
06-30-2008, 03:27 PM
If no town were construed as a major penalty then I am so very happy. Maybe this would lessen the "need" for components/silver sink/waste of my lesure time doing something worse than work...

If you want to be able to walk into town those worthless demon illusions people have worked so hard to gain may just come in handy. Or see your nearest dhe'nar slave trader and handle town business the proper way...

As for the nerve/limb/head damage...I like the idea of being able to cast through rank 2 wounds. If it gets worse than this then u r screwed, if I get a rank 3 wound I'm usually dead fairly quickly so I can live with having to drop the spell at that time (another reason to not have instant death upon the spell dropping) I think instant decay (if you die while under the effects of this spell) is enough of a penalty, or have it cost a deed to cast. Also, limiting the spell to once per day (maybe increasing to 2-3 times with enough necro lore) seems to me another pretty major draw back.


Hell, no towns, deed to cast, decay upon death while spell is active, limited uses, strong lore requirement, creation of charm, loss of neck worn slot, no society powers, undead weaknesses, no healing...(Hell clerics have self-resurrection for way less) Seems like we are giving up a lot.

No matter how much we give up simu isn't going to give us something too nice. I think there is a fear that the sorcerer community is good at getting every drop out of everything they give us, compounded by the whines of the ignorant about the "over-power" of sorcerer's spells and I think we are giving them way too many ways to limit our use of a spell that will most likely end up about as useful as animate or minor summoning...

I wouldn't be in favor of crit invulnerability now that I look at it, but immunity to stuns and deaths via crit would be 100% awesome sauce. Or maybe resistance to those things, some sort of sorcerer redux but not against damage but crits. Give us like plate class crit dividers or something (does armor work against maneuvers/spells?)

I like the idea of an after death version but I'd rather see one very powerful use of the spell than a couple watered down "neat" uses. Keep up the good work