Invasions - How They Should Be

[Methais]

For years people have been complaining about how anytime there's an invasion, some super high level guy runs out and obliterates everything and ruins the whole event. The banaltra event comes to mind, even though that was a bit different since I think there was a bug involved with the critter too, but you get the general idea.

Now I'm going to post how invasions work in Final Fantasy XI, and it's because it's the only way (or at least the best way I've seen in a game so far) invasions can work in ANY game without being ruined by someone significantly stronger than the invaders.

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- Invasions have a maximum level cap on them to participate.

- If you're over that level cap, you can have your level temporarily reduced to the level cap. Skills go down to their appropriate numbers for that level of course.

- When you're done fighting in the invasion or the invasion is over, you can return to your normal level.

- To prevent abuse, you can't gain experience off any regular critters while your level is reduced, even if your normal level is under the invasion-cap. As a matter of fact you can't even attack non-invasion critters. Likewise, they don't attack you either, I think.

- You don't lose any experience when you die (probably to balance out not being able to gain experience)

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Let's say 1000 arch wights (Level 20) invaded the Landing right now. How long do you think they would last once the fighting began? I'd say less than 2 minutes.

Now let's take 250 arch wights and throw in an invasion cap of level 15. How long would they last then? I would guess a good bit longer, but still not long enough.

A cap of level 15 still probably wouldn't be enough of a challenge though I think, and people wouldn't be too intimidated by it. So let's make them non-corporeal and give them TONS of health, like several thousand at least, and spread them out instead of having all 250 of them spread out over a handful of rooms.

No matter how big a creature is in an invasion, if it goes down in a few hits, it's not really that scary, whereas they might be more intimidating if you and 10 other people have been pounding away on it and it's still fighting back and doing a pretty good job too.

The purpose of this is to make them easy to hit, but hard to kill even for a group of people.

The point of having the invasion cap at 15 instead of 20 is to make them be stronger than you, at least to pose enough of a threat to where it will usually take its share of people down with it before it finally dies. Most things I've hunted that are the same level as me over the years weren't much of a challenge as far as them posing a threat to me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd much rather have invasions consist of things like this instead of having 472382047280 critters that all die in a couple of hits and having one of us die for every 100 critters we kill.

What do you think?

[Overlord]

lmfao @ Banaltras. That was a good invasion though, lasted a few days, though it did bug me when they burrowed in under my well and killed me when i was sleeping Bah

As for your ideas for a better invasion, I can see that being more acceptable. I mean its great having older folk around to help.... BUt i loved the jant accupation... from 35-60 odd trains on marchlords that worked pretty damn good for me. Whats the most recent invasion been by the way.....

[Kurapira]

Most recent I know of was some elemental witches and shit. More annoying then an invasion.

By the way, I am never going to consider FFXI in the FF series. What a freaking waste of a number.

[AnticorRifling]

Jant invasion was the first time I ever hunted in an invasion. You know cone is bad in an invasion? Found that out the hard way. Sure mstrike is fine but no no I only get to hit one at a time....

[Czeska]

Well, there was the abominable snowmonster invasioin <grin>

[Fallen]

Wait, so if kobolds attacked the Landing, everyone who wanted to participate would have to be reduced to level 3 or so?

All of a sudden someone goes from killing War Griffins to being on the same skill level as some 10 trains or less critter? I guess it would work, but you might as well just have some messaging that says "It isnt worth your time to kill this pathetic creature" Or some such thing and the creatures attacks/maneuvers/spells dont effect you.

[Xcalibur]

No level cap/limit

That is bullcrap

I'd say, create a place where only level less than 40 invadse, a place where only level between 41 and 80 invades.. et cetera.

For exemple, when there is an invasion, north gate is guarded by some guards that will refuse the access to all people over level X, so only level x and under will be able to go out (and fight said monsters)

at western gate, monsters are stronger, guards refuse people under the X level in question, only those higher can go.

Stuff like that. Removing skills = BAD IDEA

[Fallen]

This makes somewhat more sense in an IC way.

If you were obviously much more powerful than the creatures in a certain area, your skills would be required elsewhere.

There are problems with this idea as well, however. There are usually several different routes into any specific area. There would have to be guards surrounding an invasion to stop older people from wandering into the battle.

You then create a problem of people not being able to travel freely during an invasion, which I could easily see as annoyingly disruptive at times.

Invasions are a tough issue. The best style I heard of so far was to have several different boats travel to an area under attack. The groups were based on level, each landing in an area where like-trained creatures lie in wait.

[Xcalibur]

Then you put the invasion to place that have only one access

Or block access with some war machines like they did with the crystal (mandi?), barricades, etc.
Or on the contrary, you create one or two pseudo-areas for the invasion. From north gate, east, you create a field, something. War were RARELY made in town but in a battlefields, by the way



But removing skill/level = BAD IDEA.

[Xinister]

OR the invaders do a stat check and respond accordingly to the person attacking it.

This results in the invaders being a challenge for everyone always.

ex) lvl 50 character attack the critter
Critter == 55

lvl 5 character attack the same critter
Critter == 10

I would think this is much easier to program in a game, since they can do a script on the new critters instead of doing a script for all the players in GS database.

Xinister

[Xcalibur]

Or better, monsters ignore too weak and people trying to fight those too strong monsters are sheer feared, push back, stunned, whatever

Banshees come, 5 level 7 scripts are coming to rathunt. Banshee screams, paralyzing the scripters. She goes to meet better challenge.

Et cetera

[Fallen]

That idea holds alot of merit, Xcal. It would allow for those of lesser trains to concentrate on the invading creatures near them in levels. Those of lesser power could concentrate their efforts on aiding their fallen champions or fighting creatures closer to their level.

Ofcourse, in any invasion there should be one or two types of creatures that attack everyone regardless of levels. They shouldnt gen too heavily, but you must have some sense of real risk to add to the excitment of the moment.

This still leaves the problem of older people single-handedly wiping out lesser invasions, however.

Possibly have the gen rates tweaked to spawn like leveled creatures when a higher level person shows up, and have lower level creatures run from these people. If there is a mix of people, have the creatures stay until the highest one is defeated, sending the lower level creatures scattering.

Also in any good invasion, there should be a GM/GH running about in some massive beast's husk, kicking the crap out of others at will until finally defeated. Lower level use ballista type tools, while highers attack head-on.

[Xinister]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Or better, monsters ignore too weak and people trying to fight those too strong monsters are sheer feared, push back, stunned, whatever

Banshees come, 5 level 7 scripts are coming to rathunt. Banshee screams, paralyzing the scripters. She goes to meet better challenge.

Et cetera

What you just mentioned is what they do now, beside the critter ignoring part.

If banshee comes to town, people too low train will get feared.

Script in this case does not mean the person is scripting, but it means what a monster is programmed to do and respond to certain criterias.

[Parkbandit]

From an in character standpoint.. I don't think it would work. How can I go from smacking the daylights out of a sentinal one second and being barely able to scratch a kobold the next? And how can an invading banshee not attack someone who is obviously laying down sleeping... yet she will go after another one that is not?

How about this: The invasion critters have variable skill levels. A level 10 character attacks them, their DS is say 120. A level 80 character attacks them, their DS is say 320. Same goes for AS.. the critter swings at a level 10 character, and the AS is 100... a level 80 and it blows up to 400.

And everyone gains some experience from them.

Not sure if it is programmable though...

[Xinister]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
How about this: The invasion critters have variable skill levels. A level 10 character attacks them, their DS is say 120. A level 80 character attacks them, their DS is say 320. Same goes for AS.. the critter swings at a level 10 character, and the AS is 100... a level 80 and it blows up to 400.


That's exactly what I said. Nuff.

[Xcalibur]

So a champion of darkness could be killed by a level 1 using a blue crystal with a claidhmore

Sorry, i find that idea very stupid.

And if you say that invasion monsters should kill people, even when they are like 50 levels under the monster.. why when there is such invasions we don't see TONS of bodies of people that were massacred?

I agree with Fallen that invasion should be done by a gm/gh. Pointless invasions with monsters that come and just get beaten is stupid. Keep em outside.

[Xinister]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
So a champion of darkness could be killed by a level 1 using a blue crystal with a claidhmore

Sorry, i find that idea very stupid.

And if you say that invasion monsters should kill people, even when they are like 50 levels under the monster.. why when there is such invasions we don't see TONS of bodies of people that were massacred?

I agree with Fallen that invasion should be done by a gm/gh. Pointless invasions with monsters that come and just get beaten is stupid. Keep em outside.

Being at a lower level does not constitute in having the same amount of MA skills at the same level or HPs.

Still a challenge.

[Anebriated]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
How about this: The invasion critters have variable skill levels. A level 10 character attacks them, their DS is say 120. A level 80 character attacks them, their DS is say 320. Same goes for AS.. the critter swings at a level 10 character, and the AS is 100... a level 80 and it blows up to 400.

And everyone gains some experience from them.

Not sure if it is programmable though...

It is programmable. Its how Fire Mages(i think) used to be a few years ago. They were uncapped and when you fought one they conformed to your level so that you could learn from them. Its been done in the past on the old systems im sure they could find a way to do it now if they chose to.

[Methais]

<<All of a sudden someone goes from killing War Griffins to being on the same skill level as some 10 trains or less critter? I guess it would work, but you might as well just have some messaging that says "It isnt worth your time to kill this pathetic creature" Or some such thing and the creatures attacks/maneuvers/spells dont effect you.

Wouldn't be a very fun invasion if you couldn't attack anything.

Plus I'm pretty sure area effect spells wouldn't be able to tell if a critter's worth your time to kill or not. Cone, major e-ewave, implode, etc. would still kill them and chances are it's not something that can be coded around.

<<No level cap/limit

That is bullcrap>>

<<But removing skill/level = BAD IDEA.>>

Care to explain why other than just because you think it's bullcrap and a bad idea?

It's temporary, and the only way I see that can prevent older people from wiping out the whole thing by themselves. I'm pretty sure programming critters to adjust their numbers depending on who they attack or who's attacking them is impossible to code for GS.

<<I'd say, create a place where only level less than 40 invades, a place where only level between 41 and 80 invades.. et cetera.>>

Create a separate place for invasions to take place? It wouldn't seem like much of an invasion if the fight takes place inside a big boxing ring that we meet up at in its own area.

A messenger darts in with a sealed envelope. You open it and it reads:

We come to smash you, meet us at invasion area in 1 hour.

- Big Fat Troll King



<<For exemple, when there is an invasion, north gate is guarded by some guards that will refuse the access to all people over level X, so only level x and under will be able to go out (and fight said monsters)

at western gate, monsters are stronger, guards refuse people under the X level in question, only those higher can go.>>

What about people who are just trying to go somewhere and don't care about the invasion?

<<Stuff like that. Removing skills = BAD IDEA >>

Again, it's a temporary thing, and is only active when you're fighting in the invasion. If you decide 2 minutes later you wanna go hunt stone sentinels again, go to the inn or whatever and have your cap lifted. I see no problem with a temporary invasion cap if it only affects the invasion and not normal gameplay.

Despite the whole level issue, I think they should at least change the critters along the lines of how I suggested in my first post (thousands of health, etc.)

<<From an in character standpoint.. I don't think it would work. How can I go from smacking the daylights out of a sentinal one second and being barely able to scratch a kobold the next? And how can an invading banshee not attack someone who is obviously laying down sleeping... yet she will go after another one that is not?>>

If you're fighting off an invasion, you won't have time to go kill sentinels. When you go back to sentinels, your level will be normal, and since your character has no knowledge of levels or AS/DS/CS/TD, they'll never know the difference. As for the banshee, if someone's sleeping and someone else is attacking it, I think the attacking person would be a bit more of a threat don't you?

<<And if you say that invasion monsters should kill people, even when they are like 50 levels under the monster.. why when there is such invasions we don't see TONS of bodies of people that were massacred?>>

My point is that invasion critters should be hard to kill. The way it is now, the only thing invaders have going for them is sheer numbers. I think it'd be more fun to have to beat critters for a while to kill it instead of having 300 things that all die in one hit.

<<How about this: The invasion critters have variable skill levels. A level 10 character attacks them, their DS is say 120. A level 80 character attacks them, their DS is say 320. Same goes for AS.. the critter swings at a level 10 character, and the AS is 100... a level 80 and it blows up to 400.>>

If that's possible to code, it would work. Unfortunately I don't think it is.

[Methais]

<<It is programmable. Its how Fire Mages(i think) used to be a few years ago. They were uncapped and when you fought one they conformed to your level so that you could learn from them. Its been done in the past on the old systems im sure they could find a way to do it now if they chose to.>>

I don't remember ever hearing of that. You sure? You'd think if they had the code in place for it already, they'd be using it in invasions.

[Xinister]

Originally posted by Methais
I don't remember ever hearing of that. You sure? You'd think if they had the code in place for it already, they'd be using it in invasions.

It should be easier to do this rather than changing the character level itself. This is almost the same coding as if the critter was to do a Manuever Attack, it checks the character's skills. The critter will check the character's level instead of skills.

New invasion critters can be coded easier since they are NEW.:smilegrin:

[Edited on 12-30-2003 by Xinister]

[Izalude]

Fire mages didn't reduce your skills at all nor did they receive any new skills if you were higher in trains. They were consistently 95 trains. However... Prior to the rift's existence, you would learn experience from fire mages as if you were 5 trains over them uncapped. Example... a 110 train wizard decides to hunt them... when he kills one, he receives the experience as if he killed something 105 trains. Once the rift was introduced, this was taken away. But prior to the rift, you could learn from fire mages forever.

[Fallen]

There are many easy fixes to the invasion problem as long as you decide to throw logic out the window.

Having a creature become only as strong as the one attacking it would work, but it makes no sense at all.

Having a character becoming as weak as the oldest invading creature would work, but again makes no sense in an IC manner.

Sectioning off an invasion by levels works, but only in some situations. It has been used successfully in the past, but still has its drawbacks. Why would creatures decide to segregate themselves into groups based on power? Wouldnt there be leaders to command the lesser fighters, ect?

There has also been multi-part creatures introduced into invasions, that have different limbs and what have you that must be destroyed. Some parts of the creature are harder than others, so people go where they are needed. Still nothing to stop a cowardly higher level player from tearing apart the smaller bits rather than fight something near his/her level of power.

I think the idea behind invasions is that the strong survive and the weak perish. Its not fair, but war never is.

[Edited on 12-30-2003 by Fallen]