National Finger Print Registry*

[Gan]

Sens. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Mel Martinez (R-Fla.) authored a bill (with 11 co-sponsors, including Sen. Barack Obama) that was incorporated into a housing bill passed by the Senate Banking Committee 19-2 before the Memorial Day recess — a bill that creates a national fingerprint registry.

According to a Martinez press release (http://martinez.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=NewsReleases.View&ContentRecord_id=e61dcff7-69bd-4aed-99b7-53d4b8579b72&IsTextOnly=False), the language merely “create[s] national licensing and oversight standards for residential mortgage originators.”

One of the standards, John Berlau of the Competitive Enterprise Institute says, may “require thousands of individuals working even tangentially in the mortgage and real estate industries — and not suspected of anything — to send their prints to the feds. (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26872)”

http://blog.heritage.org/2008/06/09/obama-among-supporters-of-national-fingerprint-registry/

_________________________________________

*for people in the mortgage or real estate industry.

Before everyone panics - see the asterisk.

Newsflash: All realtors for the State of Texas are required to be fingerprinted.

Precedence? Will this set precedence for other occupations that currently dont require fingerprinting to start?

Will this be the end of anonomity? Whats next, a national ID with biometric or fingerprinting on it???!?!?!!!

The horror!

And for those who read this and get stuck on the source - we're not discussing source but content. Move past it.

[Nieninque]

The government here are talking about establishing a national DNA database for everyone.

Fuck that.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I really don't like this.

[Fallen]

As my crap is already on file I don't have a problem with it. That, and i'm from mostly fine Arian stock.

[Gan]

I'm already on file with the FBI database, so its nothing for me to sweat.

[Khariz]

As my crap is already on file I don't have a problem with it. That, and i'm from mostly fine Arian stock.

Same.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I don't have anything to hide, it just rubs me the wrong way I guess. If you're not working for the Government or suspected of wrong doing, why should you have to send in prints.

[Kembal]

Stupid question, but isn't pretty much every kid born in the past 30 years fingerprinted anyway? (I know my parents got my fingerprints taken.) Or is there a law prohibiting the government from using that information in a criminal investigation?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Stupid question, but isn't pretty much every kid born in the past 30 years fingerprinted anyway? (I know my parents got my fingerprints taken.) Or is there a law prohibiting the government from using that information in a criminal investigation?

There's a program for it and you're encouraged to do it in case someone abducts your child, but it's not legally required.

[Fallen]

Anyone ever see Gattaca(sp) Fantastic movie which illuminates the fears regarding this issue.


Note: Many of you will think that movie in fact sucked.

[CrystalTears]

I love Gattaca. I have it on DVD. But that was far from fingerprinting. Having your information on file is one thing. Singling you out and preventing you from doing something because of the findings is quite another.

[LOL BRIELUS]

oh noes, its all bush's fault!

[Back]

As it relates to this and other threads currently...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/16403313/detail.html

I don’t think this will work very well but its indicative of our current security state mentality.

The DNA database... in this application is uncomfortable. But think about this. If you are doing nothing wrong, and the database isn’t fucking with your life whats the problem? Plus, it could have great promise in terms of geneology and the health indusrty. Where books and interpretations fail this might be a tool to help reconnect the ties of the global family.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I actually liked Gattaca. It was underrated. I wouldn't say that I fear sudden genetic discrimination, but I would say that I don't like a precedent for crossing the line of people's civil liberty by demanding things like said fingerprints, for the sake of "safety" or whatever.

[CrystalTears]

You don't fear genetic discrimination, but you have a problem with fingerprint requirements?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

You don't fear genetic discrimination, but you have a problem with fingerprint requirements?

I said sudden genetic discrimination. There's a difference. I don't think tomorrow we're all gonna have to get our DNA tested and then we'll be sorted into appropriate "genetic castes."

I fear more at this point, the precedent it sets.

[Nieninque]

The DNA database... in this application is uncomfortable. But think about this. If you are doing nothing wrong, and the database isn’t fucking with your life whats the problem?

I have no reason to worry that I may be incriminated in something I havent done, but I will refuse to join any biometric/dna register for as long as I possibly can.

Working for a local government agency, I see how information can be misused or lost on a daily basis. Our child benefit agency lost CDs with something like 26 million families records (including bank details, names and dates of birth of children), there was a spate of idiots working for government agencies that lost a huge amount of information that was laying around or being sent from A to B in the most ridiculous ways. I wouldn't let those fucking idiots look after my cat, let alone personal information that sensitive.

That whole "If you've done nothing wrong..." argument is misplaced at the best of times. The UK is becoming a prime example of that where we have CCTV cameras EVERYWHERE. We surely arent that fucking interesting.

[Gelston]

I agree with this, and feel it should go even further. I think fingerprints should be required to when you recieve/renew your Driver's Licenses, State IDs, Permits, etc.

[Mistomeer]

No big deal. Anyone working in the financial industry already has their prints on file with the SEC. They're just trying to bring the industry under more regulation after the collapse.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm fingerprinted (at my own cost) with the FBI and multiple others and have no problem with it. I do see a problem with DNA databases at this point and time however.

To comment on some of the other posts m first fake id's were right from the DMV. Easy as fucking pie.

[Apathy]

That whole "If you've done nothing wrong..." argument is misplaced at the best of times. The UK is becoming a prime example of that where we have CCTV cameras EVERYWHERE. We surely arent that fucking interesting.

You are when you're sleeping...and in the shower...and sleeping in the shower.

[Bobmuhthol]

Fingerprints have nothing to do with DNA.

[Sean of the Thread]

Fingerprints have nothing to do with DNA.

Do I really need to comment on this statement?

[Bobmuhthol]

Apparently. I was mostly responding to this and other similar statements: "The government here are talking about establishing a national DNA database for everyone."

[TheEschaton]

I already have my fingerprints on file with the State Department, twice actually (once when you become a naturalized citizen, once when I went into the PC). I guess that means mine are already in a national database.

It kind of sucks, but we're quickly moving towards such a society.

-TheE-
P.S. It's not as easy to leave fingerprints as CSI would suggest.

[CrystalTears]

My fingerprints are already on file as well, when my ex-husband and I tried to startup an investigation service. It doesn't concern me.

[Trouble]

Yeah to get any decent job here in the DC area you need to get fingerprinted. No biggie. I even voluntarily participated in a DNA database back when I was traveling for State full time, in case they needed to identify my body.

[radamanthys]

I got fingerprinted in kindergarden. That's why I wear gloves now when I'm doing the whole serial murder thing.

</joke>

I often wonder what would happen if some strong, charismatic leader (Napoleon, HRE, Bismarck, Godell's, etc) decided to take over the country under a single flag. Could a bunch of american citizens actually stand up to the might of Milgram's to defy it? It was easier back in the day... the citizen/governmental technological divide was more mitigable.

If that happened, and all order was secured, then what could we do? Should the government be kept slightly weak domestically in order to ensure our survival? Post 9/11 sentiment says no. But is that really what's best for us? There's no good answer. *sigh*

[BigWorm]

One of my favorite quotes of all time:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety


If you are doing nothing wrong, and the database isn’t fucking with your life whats the problem?

Yeah, obviously only people who are doing bad stuff want privacy.

How does a national fingerprint database make anyone safer?

[BigWorm]

I got fingerprinted in kindergarden. That's why I wear gloves now when I'm doing the whole serial murder thing.

</joke>

I often wonder what would happen if some strong, charismatic leader (Napoleon, HRE, Bismarck, Godell's, etc) decided to take over the country under a single flag. Could a bunch of american citizens actually stand up to the might of Milgram's to defy it? It was easier back in the day... the citizen/governmental technological divide was more mitigable.

If that happened, and all order was secured, then what could we do? Should the government be kept slightly weak domestically in order to ensure our survival? Post 9/11 sentiment says no. But is that really what's best for us? There's no good answer. *sigh*

The Iraqi insurgents seem to be doing alright in the face of massive technological inferiority.

[Tsa`ah]

One of my favorite quotes of all time:

We often like to throw out the quotes of key figures in our history, just as often we fail to realize that said figures and said quotes were from a drastically different era.


Yeah, obviously only people who are doing bad stuff want privacy.

How does a national fingerprint database make anyone safer?

This has nothing to do with privacy other than protecting it.

A national database of finger prints, coupled with a national ID (not a separate ID but rather every state having a standard ID and standard practices pertaining to requirements for said ID) allows for a great deal of personal security when it comes to identity.

If law enforcement and key departments (IRS, SSA, state welfare ... etc) are able to cross reference each other, you have the ability to drastically cut down on things such as tax fraud/evasion, identity theft, and fraudulent claims made within our social welfare systems.

You have valid concerns when we're talking about warrantless wire taps, the ability for any government official to intercept your mail from the post office, read your e-mails and monitor your electronic transmissions.

Clarifying identity is not invasive of privacy.

[g++]

We often like to throw out the quotes of key figures in our history, just as often we fail to realize that said figures and said quotes were from a drastically different era.

Unless your 300 years old your a pompous asshole.

[BigWorm]

This has nothing to do with privacy other than protecting it.

So we're protecting privacy by collecting fingerprints? How does that protect privacy AT ALL?

[Tsa`ah]

Easier means of cracking down on identity theft and those that perpetuate it? Use your head and think of all the ways the a clear idenity can be self protecting.

[Clove]

I fear more at this point, the precedent it sets.What precedent? You have your picture taken for your driver's license and basic personal information printed on it (height, weight, hair/eye color etc). Why? For identification purposes. If it were up to me, they'd put your fingerprint on your license too.

The CA DMV already requires anyone who has access to driver records (i.e. employees of insurance companies, investigators, banks and car dealerships) to be fingerprinted.

I honestly don't understand why this bothers people? I have heard the argument that databases with personal information are vulnerable to abuse and to an extent it's valid; however your information is exposed to this risk every day (i.e. social security, phone number, name, face, address etc.). Unless you're concerned that someone might steal your fingerprint and go dusting around places you've been... I hardly see how it matters.

On the other hand it makes you more identifiable IF you've been somewhere or done something you shouldn't. This is good insurance to have on someone who may have access to confidential information.

[longshot]

I love Gattaca. I have it on DVD.

I love that movie. Not enough people have seen it.

Whenever one of my friends goes home with a girl that, um, might have a few miles on her, I always throw out the, "Hey, this morning were you curled up in your shower scraping off your skin off like Ethan Hawke?"

If they've seen Gattaca, it's great.

As far as the mortgage thing, if it increases accountability for the brokers, I'm in.

[Tsa`ah]

As far as the mortgage thing, if it increases accountability for the brokers, I'm in.

And how.

[longshot]

And how.

Couldn't tell you right now.

If it somehow can, then I'm for it. If it can't, then I think it's unnecessary.

[Clove]

Couldn't tell you right now.

If it somehow can, then I'm for it. If it can't, then I think it's unnecessary.Oh it's probably unnecessary... but that's par for the course too :D.

And Gattaca rules BTW. I think I've seen it 20 times at least.

[Tsa`ah]

Couldn't tell you right now.

If it somehow can, then I'm for it. If it can't, then I think it's unnecessary.

It was an agreement (though dated) with your post.

The way the sub-primes (normally with a triple B rating ... not a pot to piss in) were shuffled in with the triple to single A rated to form brokered trunks ... re-shuffled at each point on up the line to Wall Street was nearly criminal.

So many fingers manipulating the market with paper not worth the sacrifice in soy for ink and at this point really impossible to determine specific individuals involved.

[longshot]

Clove, I think you got what I was saying.

My support for this would depend on the betterment of the mortgage brokerage industry. I can't go so far as to say that it's not necessary though. A change is needed. I would be in favor of plaster molds being made of these shady fucker's faces if it helped...


It was an agreement (though dated) with your post.

The way the sub-primes (normally with a triple B rating ... not a pot to piss in) were shuffled in with the triple to single A rated to form brokered trunks ... re-shuffled at each point on up the line to Wall Street was nearly criminal.



I'm not sure what you mean by "brokered trunks." I think you mean traunches? Yes, there was fraud in the brokerage market, and it this made its way up the chain, but most of the actual shuffling (and wizardry) was done by the street.

CDOs let you turn a big pile of shit into something else entirely different. You take 1,000 shoddy mortgages, and then say that they all can't fail. So you chop them up into traunches, and then sell them that way. The 500 mortgages that happen to be at the top of the meat grinder get rated as AAA because the bottom 500 have to be churned through before any of those would get touched. But, just because they're at the top of the pile doesn't make them any different from the ones below them. They're all the same shit...

They have really, really smart people trying to come up with default correlations. This tells them how fast the grinder should go...

When the economy gets bad, there's a housing bubble, the grinder goes faster than people anticipated... and everything gets blown to shit.

Suddenly those 500 guys at the top don't feel very "AAA" anymore after all these guys below them are now some type of sausage...

I don't know if this meat grinder analogy works well... but, while the brokers definitely get some blame, wall street is very, very far from innocent.

[Latrinsorm]

How does a national fingerprint database make anyone safer?We always have had, continue to have, and in all probability always will have a reactive justice system. It stands to reason that deterrence is proportional to the probability of being caught; hence, making it easier to catch criminals makes us safer.

But God forbid we bunch the panties of the guy who thought the colonists would find the Stamp Tax a minor annoyance. You and longshot, man, what's with the reverence for a bunch of old white guys from hundreds of years ago?

[longshot]

You and longshot, man, what's with the reverence for a bunch of old white guys from hundreds of years ago?

I'm in touch with reality, that's why.

You weren't such a douche bag when I was here before. When did you become the annoying guy at the coffee shop who waxes poetic about Che Guevara?

[BigWorm]

We always have had, continue to have, and in all probability always will have a reactive justice system. It stands to reason that deterrence is proportional to the probability of being caught; hence, making it easier to catch criminals makes us safer.

But God forbid we bunch the panties of the guy who thought the colonists would find the Stamp Tax a minor annoyance. You and longshot, man, what's with the reverence for a bunch of old white guys from hundreds of years ago?

Franklin is pretty much the only original statesman that I ever quote, though I think I may have quoted Jefferson on here before.

[Latrinsorm]

When did you become the annoying guy at the coffee shop who waxes poetic about Che Guevara?When did you become the guy who feels the need to classify everyone who disagrees vehemently with him as BHLs? Or, put another way, when did you become ParkBandit?

Low blow, I know, but when have I ever given a shit about Che Guevara? The answer is never.
You weren't such a douche bag when I was here before.I'm pretty confident I was a much bigger douche bag when you were here before, probably to the point where you just skipped over my posts. Put another way; yes, I can even be a douche bag about how big of a douche bag I am.

[Tsa`ah]

I'm not sure what you mean by "brokered trunks." I think you mean traunches? Yes, there was fraud in the brokerage market, and it this made its way up the chain, but most of the actual shuffling (and wizardry) was done by the street.

That would be the word.

Just from a few read articles and a couple of NPR documentaries, my understanding was that a market was created for sub-primes from the bottom up.

Under new regulation (or deregulation), lenders (creating a completely separate lending market) didn't even half to check a person's credit, just verify they had a job. A potential borrower would fill out their app and it was then reviewed and "adjusted". At that point they just had to get an accountant (in house) to say it was "possible" for the applicant to "earn" the adjustment. The applicants rarely, if ever, saw the application again after it was signed.

At that point the customer, who really didn't have a pot to piss in financially, would be approved and given the keys to a home they could never afford with a FRM, and certainly would not be able to afford it after their ARM reset the first time .... and likely would be foreclosed upon by the time it reset for the third time.

These lenders were churning out a shit ton of crap (BBB) mortgages and selling each one before the ink was dry. The first tier buyers were throwing money at that type of lender, buying up whatever sub prime they could get their hands while buying the A-AAA rated mortgages in smaller quantities ... the create these traunches that would be sold off with a better rating than what half of the traunch was made up of ... all the way to Wall Street.

My understanding was that when it became evident (foreclosure rates) the traunches weren't worth the paper or ink (bubble getting ready to burst), Wall Street stopped buying traunches containing any sub-prime ... which was pretty much the entire market less a few exceptions.

At that point it was impossible to tell exactly who was involved outside of the original lender and the brokerage firms passing them off since many of the firms went belly up within days to weeks of Wall Street taking a pass on sub-primes.

[Parkbandit]

When did you become the guy who feels the need to classify everyone who disagrees vehemently with him as BHLs? Or, put another way, when did you become ParkBandit?

Low blow, I know, but when have I ever given a shit about Che Guevara? The answer is never.I'm pretty confident I was a much bigger douche bag when you were here before, probably to the point where you just skipped over my posts. Put another way; yes, I can even be a douche bag about how big of a douche bag I am.

I agree with the Latrine.. he's always been a douche bag if you took the time to decipher his posts.

[Tsa`ah]

The irony contained in the above post is only lost on it's author.

[longshot]

When did you become the guy who feels the need to classify everyone who disagrees vehemently with him as BHLs? Or, put another way, when did you become ParkBandit?

I could be wrong... I might have had you mixed you up with someone else from before. I remember "Latrinsorm" was an ugly guy with long hair that liked math. He had never been laid before, but claimed it was due to some kind of religious adherence.

I might be thinking of someone else though. Anyways, that guy seemed to not think so much of himself

I don't know what a "BHL" is. I have no clue what that's supposed to mean. Sorry.

I said I hadn't decided if I supported an idea. I explained what my support would be contingent on. This is a fairly open minded approach in my opinion... yet you want to jump in and act like a shit head and say this somehow makes me want to lather up in a bathtub with 100 year old white people?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense... hence my coffee shop comment. Nothing to do with Che,... everything to do with a strong belief in your own intelligence that is founded nothing but your own attitude. This faux-elitism makes you that guy... makes you that douche bag.

It's fitting that you feel the need to parse up what I write into a string of multi-quote fragments. This way, you can selectively write your snarky remarks and have freedom to be critical of what I say instead of having to actually create anything of substance on your own.

But, then again, it's easy to be a critic.

I don't know if there's whole milk or skim milk in your latte, and I don't know what book you're reading. But, you are that duchebag in the coffee shop.

[BigWorm]

BHL = Bleeding Heart Liberal

[Gan]

I could be wrong... I might have had you mixed you up with someone else from before. I remember "Latrinsorm" was an ugly guy with long hair that liked math. He had never been laid before, but claimed it was due to some kind of religious adherence.

I might be thinking of someone else though. Anyways, that guy seemed to not think so much of himself.

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/675276/2/istockphoto_675276_target_bullseye.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

I could be wrong... I might have had you mixed you up with someone else from before. I remember "Latrinsorm" was an ugly guy with long hair that liked math. He had never been laid before, but claimed it was due to some kind of religious adherence.You should have quit after you went 4 for 4, but I guess there's no shame in .800.
I said I hadn't decided if I supported an idea.I was referring to the other thread for you, and this thread for him.
This faux-elitism makes you that guy... makes you that douche bag.Yeah, I would never expect to hear the phrase "cultural equivalence" in a cofee shop. You've totally got me there.
This way, you can selectively write your snarky remarks and have freedom to be critical of what I say instead of having to actually create anything of substance on your own. This seriously doesn't remind you of anyone else?
But, then again, it's easy to be a critic.With you? Yes, disappointingly easy recently.

[longshot]

You should have quit after you went 4 for 4, but I guess there's no shame in .800.

You cut your hair?

[crb]

I got fingerprinted in preschool... kinda creep that... we all thought it was just fun, but it was really just a program in case any of us wee toddlers grew up into criminals.

[crazymage]

all for it.

[Snapp]

You cut your hair?

Let's hope so.
:yes: