Weightloss

[crb]

Uh, chatting on OOC Ashkell asked me to post weightloss tips. My wife and & are really into fitness and so....

Most people are ignorant about nutrition and portion sizes and everything. The most important thing you can do to achieve your goals is to read the label of every thing you eat, and if going to a restaurant look up the nutrition information.

For instance, check this out.

http://www.nutriquiz.com/quiz-view/18/

Most people are surprised by the result huh?

You go to a restaurant and think "okay red meat is bad" so you order some cheesy chicken breast thing, not realizing that the sirloin steak is the healthiest thing on the menu. Steak is served with low cal steaksauce or nothing, chicken is usually in some fatty sauce, and sirloin steak is really lean.

Anyways, what you need to do is just pick a few things and change them.

For instance, stop eating mashed potatoes, not that potatoes are bad, but you always put bad things on them. At meals, never have second helpings of your main courses, have second helpings of veggies, have all the veggies you want, but not a double does of the main meat course.

The easiest thing most people can do is cut out bread, or, cut out all white bread products (pizza, doughnuts, pastries, everything that isn't whole grain).

Never eat more than 8ozs of meat at a meal. For women, 4oz is better. At a steakhouse I always order tenderloins. It is the best most expensive steak on the menu (except maybe a larger ribeye) but it is rarely more than 8oz. I also buy them at the store and grill them.

Burgers can be healthy. Buy turkey burger patties frozen at the store, get whole grain buns (I like brownberry special whole grain buns with added protein, 10 grams of protein per bun). Without cheese it is a 300 calorie burger. Lots of fiber too.

Focus on eating more calorie sparse rather than calorie dense foods. Watermelon, strawberries, pineapple, etc. You can eat an entire pineapple and it is only like 250 calories. Great things to eat if you're still hungry.

I don't mind eating extra calories but I like all my food to have nutritional value. So checkout Barilla Plus Pasta, it has milled flax seed and soy for extra protein and fiber. It is about the same calories as normal pasta, and tastes the same, but normal pasta is empty calories that do nothing for you, and this stuff has loads of nutrition.

Eat more protein, for men it'll help you build muscle, as well protein has fewer calories per gram than fat or carbs and makes you feel fuller longer. Typically I have egg beaters mixed with frozen peas and low fat cheese every morning for breakfast, getting around 30 grams of protein with less than 300 calories. I eat a protein shake (2 bananes, 1 cup milk, 1 cup ice, 1 scoop chocolate mint whey powder) every day as well.

Stop eating fast food, stop ordering pizza, never do these things. If you gotta get fastfood, subway whole wheat 6 inch.

You will be hungry at times, especially when first starting a diet, ignore it, your stomach will shrink.

Considering how hard it is to eat well at dinner compared to breakfast and lunch, try to make your gains at breakfast or lunch, if you can get those two meals to 300 calories each that gives you like 1500-2500 calories to work with at dinner depending on your body size, and even dinner at Olive garden won't break you.

Be conscious of the fact that low fat doesn't mean low sugar. For instance many women eat yogurt and think it is healthy, it isn't, it has loads of sugar in it. Powerbars also are not healthy, you might as well eat a snickers.

Remember sugar makes your metabolism manic depressive, it isn't good for long term energy. You want complex carbs and lean sources of protein.

If you make a lot of sweet stuff at home, use splenda.

For a healthy dessert at home, cook some skillet green apples sweetened with splenda and cinnamon.

No fried foods.

A healthy dinner would be this.

8ozs of meat, grilled, broiled, or baked. It can be fish, pork, chicken, turkey, or beef, just so long as it is 8oz or less. Or a burger with a healthy whole grain bun and a 4oz (quarter pound) patty. 2 vegetable sides, not potatoes, try to get different colors (a variety of colors for a variety of antioxidants/etc). And for desert some baked blueberries with splenda, or some apples with splenda etc.

if you have more questions I'd be happy to share some recipes.

and oh ya, this is a good book:

http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Clean-Diet-Fat-Loss-lasts-Forever/dp/1552100383/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212857532&sr=8-1

and oh ya, fiber is really good. Keeps you moving of course but moreso, it fills you up without adding any calories because you don't digest it, so look for high fiber foods.

[crb]

to sum up a few tips.

1. No bread products of any sort. After you lose some weight add back in whole grain only, but to start, no more bread products. No potatoes.
2. Eat 5 servings of veggies & fruit a day. It is easier to try to add veggies to your diet than to cut back on other things, but by adding veggies you'll be less hungry for other things.
3. Stop eating when you are full, do not clear your plate if you are full, eat slower so you know when you're full and you can stop.
4. Weigh yourself every day, no exceptions, try to do it always at the same time, like right when you get up.

[Stanley Burrell]

Just stop taking Zyprexa and benzodiazepines. It works. I speak from experience.

[thefarmer]

Here's one..

Less time on the computer.

[Some Rogue]

Stop drinking soda...drink more water.

[Stanley Burrell]

...Continuous replay of 2girls1cup?

[NocturnalRob]

um...work out.

and eating an entire pineapple...or even a lot of pineapple is a bad idea. way too much sugar.

also, weighing yourself every day is obsessive and unnecessary.

then again, i'm eating sugared peach rings and drinking a beer right now, so what the hell do I know? Then again, I run two marathons a year as well. I'm an enigma!!

[CrystalTears]

Yeah better to just weigh yourself once a week on the same day and same of day. Weight tends to fluctuate during the week due to water and/or muscle gain. It will just set you up for disappointment.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51vtQLydDxs

[firegirl]

thanks! Great tips.

One important point I noticed as well is to never eat your meal late in the day/evening and eat something (not meals, snacks.) at least five times a day especially in the morning to kickstart your Metabolism.
I believe your body will just store that huge one meal a day because it is not sure when you are going to feed it again so 5 healthy snacks and a meal are better than 1 healthy snack and a meal.

[NocturnalRob]

It will just set you up for disappointment.

exactly. nothing worse than feeling like you've had a great day in terms of nutrition and exercise and then you've gained 1.5 pounds in 24 hours and you're just like WTF and then console yourself with a bag of Cheetos.

also, Cheetos FTMFW

[Sean of the Thread]

Take a dump.

[diethx]

I hear meth is AWESOME for weight loss.

[NocturnalRob]

Take a dump on my chest.

mmm...

[Stanley Burrell]

I hear meth is AWESOME for weight loss.

You're telling me. I work up a real calorie-burning sweat getting twenty different people to buy pseudoephedrine from different drug stores in small enough amounts that the authorities won't be notified so the product can reach the laboratory. Which I refer to as the "weight loss program."

Fuck me.

[AestheticDeath]

You might want to look some more into splenda, I have heard some bad things about it.

[Stanley Burrell]

Or post #4 in this thread.

[crb]

um...work out.

and eating an entire pineapple...or even a lot of pineapple is a bad idea. way too much sugar.

also, weighing yourself every day is obsessive and unnecessary.

then again, i'm eating sugared peach rings and drinking a beer right now, so what the hell do I know? Then again, I run two marathons a year as well. I'm an enigma!!
You can eat all the fruit you want, the sugar in fruit is irrelevant. Fruit juice, concentrated, added refined sugar, that is a whole other matter. Trust me, no one is going to gain weight by subbing pineapple or watermelon for their ribeye or chocolate cake. Not that I was suggesting that people eat a whole pineapple, but I was illustrating that you could eat something the size of a pineapple and get 250 calories, or something the size of a small square of cheesecake and get 250 calories. Since your stomach works on volume eating calorie sparse foods can help you feel full without consuming as much calories.



Yeah better to just weigh yourself once a week on the same day and same of day. Weight tends to fluctuate during the week due to water and/or muscle gain. It will just set you up for disappointment.

Nope, every day. You won't fluctuate from muscle gain, you don't gain and or lose muscle that quickly. If you're retaining water though you're right, you can fluctuate, but you'll never know what your fluctuations are unless you weigh yourself daily. If you start getting off track you may not know for a week.

Defeatest people do this all the time, they rationalize to themselves "Oh, I ate bad yesterday, I don't want to see the scale, it will depress me." Get on the scale, look at it, this is what we call negative reinforcement. Weighing yourself every day reminds you to be healthy every day.

Healthy living is a full lifestyle change, all day, every day. Changing your whole routine, and it starts with weighing yourself in the morning.

You know you want to lose weight, you know you ate bad the day before, how can a number on a scale hurt you? Not wanting to weigh yourself is just indicative of a greater problem of not wanting to face your situation.

Also, what happens if you fluctuate upwards on sundays when you weigh yourself if you do it once a week? You won't know it is a fluctuation unless you know what you weighed on saturday, friday, thursday, etc.



One important point I noticed as well is to never eat your meal late in the day/evening and eat something (not meals, snacks.) at least five times a day especially in the morning to kickstart your Metabolism.
I believe your body will just store that huge one meal a day because it is not sure when you are going to feed it again so 5 healthy snacks and a meal are better than 1 healthy snack and a meal.

Absolutely. Try to walk or something after dinner in the evening, have sex, get some exercise in. Then, in the morning, eat something even if you're not hungry. Something healthy like a piece of fruit, but something.

[crb]

You know the funny thing, once you change your lifestyle and stop eating junk you'll feel sick if you ever eat junk again and then realize that is how you used to feel all the time.

We went to Rome last summer and walking around the touristy areas there aren't a lot of food choices. Shitty little grinders or pizza, white bread everywhere. Once you're used to eating healthy you can tell when excess simple carbs have caused your metabolism to crash and burn. We were walking around just craving fruit and lean protein.

Many years ago we'd order pizza a couple times a week, eat fast food all the time. Now, we get pizza around once every three months and I can't recall the last time I ate something from McDonalds, BK, Wendys, etc for lunch or dinner. (on the road, I have had mcdonald's breakfast a few times, but mcmuffins really aren't that high in calories).

Once you've gotten off junk food going back on it just makes you feel sick because the food is so bad for you. It really puts your old shitty lifestyle in perspective.

[NocturnalRob]

Healthy living is a full lifestyle change.

so are cults, you whackjob.


You can eat all the fruit you want, the sugar in fruit is irrelevant.

and this is just plain wrong

[CrystalTears]

Muscle weighs more than fat, so if you replaced your fat with muscle, you won't see a weight drop. So that's why I said I don't consider looking at your weight every day a necessity because sometimes it can be deceiving.

[Bobmuhthol]

Muscle is denser than fat, but you do not at all lose the same volume of fat than the volume of muscle you gain.

[crb]

See Nocturnal rob is a great example of what I first said.



Most people are ignorant about nutrition and portion sizes and everything. The most important thing you can do to achieve your goals is to read the label of every thing you eat, and if going to a restaurant look up the nutrition information.

Naturally occuring sugar in fruit hasn't been refined, it hasn't been concentrated, you'd have to eat a whole bunch of fruit to get too much sugar, and what then? You've filled yourself up on a low calorie food with lots of fiber, lots of antioxidants, lots of vitamins, lots of minerals. There are worse things that someone trying to lose weight can do. You will not find a doctor or nutrionist anywhere who'll tell a dieter to eat less fresh fruit. Fruit juice has added sugar and is no better than cola, but fresh fruit is one of the healthiest snacks or desserts you can eat.



Muscle weighs more than fat, so if you replaced your fat with muscle, you won't see a weight drop. So that's why I said I don't consider looking at your weight every day a necessity because sometimes it can be deceiving.

Yes it does weigh more, but this doesn't really happen. For one, it is far harder to gain muscle than to lose fat, they don't happen on an equal basis, you don't gain a pound of muscle when you lose a pound of fat. The other reason is, it is very hard to build muscle when dieting because you body needs excess calories and especially protein to synthesize new muscle, ideally 300 extra calories per day, and if you're losing weight you aim to come in with too few calories in a day, instead of too little.

Over the course of a long period (say 6 months or more) of diet and exercise say you lose 20 pounds but are also stronger, you might be able to assume you really lost 25 pounds of fat. But it won't be something you notice on a daily basis.

[AestheticDeath]

You might want to look some more into splenda, I have heard some bad things about it.

Found some of it, basically splenda is made with chlorine.. they found it while trying to make a pesticide...

they never did long term studies before being approved by the FDA, and the short term studies on rodents showed shrunken thymus glands, enlarged livers and kidneys.

And there are some people who are allergic to splenda(sucralose) so if you haven't tried it before, and do for some reason.. be careful.

[crb]

The thing about splenda is this.

It passes through you, your body doesn't absorb it.

I don't know your source, but there is a lot of pseudoscience about sugar substitutes. One of the most popular email forwards ever was the one about Diet Coke causing cancer. I think the FDA had to put up a special page on their site explaining it was a hoax because they got so many inquiries.

[AestheticDeath]

that was about aspartame in the diet drinks I think, and some of that was true (from what I heard)

but the thing about splenda is like you said, not much is absorbed.. except in healthy people. the healthier you are the more you absorb apparently and since it has chlorine in it, if you get TOO much it can be pretty bad.

Obviously there is some chlorine in our water and whatnot.. but tiny tiny doses. If your getting it from the water, and from a lot of splenda in all your foods as a sweetener.. you could be fucking yourself.

[crb]

it isn't elemental chlorine in it.

Sucralose is sugar with a CL atom added at the end. It doesn't get broken down by our bodies and passes out. If the bond was broken to give the actual CL atom in it's elemental form, then the other half would now be normal sugar, and you'd digest it.

[NocturnalRob]

Naturally occuring sugar in fruit hasn't been refined, it hasn't been concentrated, you'd have to eat a whole bunch of fruit to get too much sugar, and what then?

what then? you've had too much sugar. that's what, you dumbass.

[crb]

Better stick your ring baloney and pork rinds then Rob, wouldn't want you to get fat from eating too much fruit ::rolleyes::

[AestheticDeath]

splenda info (http://www.tuberose.com/Sucralose.html)

there are a ton of other sites

Basically the most quoted thing is that testing is not sufficient to say splenda isn't harmful. Especially on long term basis.

But a lot of people seem to think their short term studies prove it can be harmful.

[NocturnalRob]

Better stick your ring baloney and pork rinds then Rob, wouldn't want you to get fat from eating too much fruit ::rolleyes::

yeah, good one. would love to see you try to run a marathon. even a half-marathon. good luck with that. stick to your fruit and your slimfast. i'm sure you and your wife are pictures of health.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

My own tips, not much but something.

Limiting sugar is good for your metabolism.. and while natural sugars are easier to digest they aren't better for you.. so like, having something made with honey, it's an invert sugar and though it imparts a few more health benefits, is still high on the G.I. and chemically all sugars fall into one of only a few categories (and all are high on the GI). Agave nectar is sweet without the shitty after taste, is natural, and very low on the G.I. In my opinion it's the best sugar substitute out there.

One of the biggest sugar problems now is caused by people who buy low-fat, low-carb dressings and such. They make up for it with more sodium and sugar, over double the amount usually. It's better in the long run to have a limited amount of healthy fat (i.e. olive oil based vinagarette) that's light on the sugar and salt than to get the "low-fat" that pumps up the sugar and other crap to make up for loss of flavor.

Carbs aren't neccesarily bad but you have to be very careful about avoiding enriched wheat flour. You need whole grain flour, steel cut oats (rather than processed oats), etc where the bran and nutritious parts of the wheat kernal haven't been shredded off and bleached (and thus stripping the product of it's nutritional value). Most "wheat" bread you'd get at like, a Stop'n'Shop is not true "wheat" bread. It's white bread with coloring and a little oat bran added to it.

The health benefits of green tea are ruined by adding any sort of sugar to it. You have to drink it hot or cold, but totally plain, to get the healthy benefits.

My only other tricks are to use healthy juices/purees to boil/cook food in, and sneak vegetable puree into every single think you can. Most of the time you can't even taste it (a puree made of baby spinach leaves is virtually tasteless while being packed with iron and nutrients, but part of the reason it's so popular for salad is that it has almost no flavor and carries the flavor of the rest of the salad well because of that).

[Keller]

How does running a marathon make you healthy? I'm not arguing the obvious merits of exercise -- but there is a lot more to health and cardiovascular health and physical stamina.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

How does running a marathon make you healthy? I'm not arguing the obvious merits of exercise -- but there is a lot more to health and cardiovascular health and physical stamina.

:yeahthat:

Back when I used to be an avid runner, I would do between 10-20 miles a day for cross country practice after having eaten a muffin with a coke in the morning, a double quarter pounder for lunch, usually three bowls of lucky charms after practice and then taco bell for dinner.

I didn't keel over and die and I competed very well, but I would hardly say that I was healthy at that point...

[Tisket]

The health benefits of green tea are ruined by adding any sort of sugar to it. You have to drink it hot or cold, but totally plain, to get the healthy benefits.


Source?

I'm doubtful. I mean, if I eat a sugar cookie while drinking my plain green tea I'm golden?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Source?

I'm doubtful. I mean, if I eat a sugar cookie while drinking my plain green tea I'm golden?

The study that showed it hindered absorption of anti-oxidants has been countered by some other studies that shows no change. Some up in the air over milk, but now it's believed there's no difference:

I stand corrected :D

Oh and the link would be nice:
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/news/viewarticle/1,1513,17,00.html

[Tisket]

Source?

[Tisket]

lol Im so confused now! How do I drink my tea?!

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

lol Im so confused now! How do I drink my tea?!

Haha you can put anything in it, so long as the tea is fresh (i.e. in a tea bag or the actual leaves) as opposed to powdered or "processed".

But I was wrong on putting anything in it, you should be able to put honey, sugar, or milk into it and still get the anti-oxidants just fine.

[NocturnalRob]

:yeahthat:

Back when I used to be an avid runner, I would do between 10-20 miles a day for cross country practice after having eaten a muffin with a coke in the morning, a double quarter pounder for lunch, usually three bowls of lucky charms after practice and then taco bell for dinner.

I didn't keel over and die and I competed very well, but I would hardly say that I was healthy at that point...

wow. i'm more impressed by the diet than the mileage. my pre-marathon diet, especially the two months leading up to the actual even, is pretty bland. lean protein, some carbs, and FRUIT and veggies. no way i could put the necessary mileage in on fast food. then again, i haven't eaten at mcdonald's in 8 years, so go figure.

[CrystalTears]

You can eat all the fruit you want, the sugar in fruit is irrelevant. Fruit juice, concentrated, added refined sugar, that is a whole other matter. Trust me, no one is going to gain weight by subbing pineapple or watermelon for their ribeye or chocolate cake. Not that I was suggesting that people eat a whole pineapple, but I was illustrating that you could eat something the size of a pineapple and get 250 calories, or something the size of a small square of cheesecake and get 250 calories. Since your stomach works on volume eating calorie sparse foods can help you feel full without consuming as much calories.
It's still about moderation though, as you said. I've always heard suggested that you not have more than 5 servings of fruit a day.


Defeatest people do this all the time, they rationalize to themselves "Oh, I ate bad yesterday, I don't want to see the scale, it will depress me." Get on the scale, look at it, this is what we call negative reinforcement. Weighing yourself every day reminds you to be healthy every day.
Nah, that's not really why I said to not do it everyday. It's more from personal experience, and/or women fluctuate more than men. I can eat the same thing every day, but one day I'll be one pound heavier, and another day one pound lighter. It doesn't do me any good to look at the scale everyday. It's just massively confusing. :D


You know you want to lose weight, you know you ate bad the day before, how can a number on a scale hurt you? Not wanting to weigh yourself is just indicative of a greater problem of not wanting to face your situation.
If you know you ate badly, why would you want to have that extra guilt when you get on the scale? Again, being a female with hormones, seeing my weight every day would drive me bonkers.


Also, what happens if you fluctuate upwards on sundays when you weigh yourself if you do it once a week? You won't know it is a fluctuation unless you know what you weighed on saturday, friday, thursday, etc.
I jot down what I eat and drink everyday. So if I find that at the end of the week it went down, I know where the problem was.

And always eat breakfast. Breakfast is a big deal.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

wow. i'm more impressed by the diet than the mileage. my pre-marathon diet, especially the two months leading up to the actual even, is pretty bland. lean protein, some carbs, and FRUIT and veggies. no way i could put the necessary mileage in on fast food. then again, i haven't eaten at mcdonald's in 8 years, so go figure.

Well, we were kids then (High School) and everyone ate crappy. I'd say we ate marginally better than other kids and drank way more water than soda (come to think of it almost no one our team drank soda besides maybe once a day), but we all loved our fast food.

However, it was easy to compensate because we had no other obligation besides to run. So we could overcome the crappy nutrition we gave ourselves by taking two harder PE courses during the day and then spending three hours running after school.

[NocturnalRob]

Well, we were kids then (High School) and everyone ate crappy.

yeah, a decade later, and I'm finding that the pounds don't shed as quickly...

what the hell is that about?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

yeah, a decade later, and I'm finding that the pounds don't shed as quickly...

what the hell is that about?

Yeah it was a real kick in my ass when I graduated, stopped running so much (I still try to get a mile in every day though) and yet continued to eat as if I was burning a ridiculous amount of calories.

The "WTF I guess I can't eat whatever the hell I want" moment came when my size 3 jeans no longer fit, and now to this day I wonder what kind of crack I was smoking back when I thought not being size 1 made me fat.

[Some Rogue]

yeah, a decade later, and I'm finding that the pounds don't shed as quickly...

what the hell is that about?

Yeah, 18 years later and I finally decided to do something about it.

But, I've lost about 70 lbs in the last 6 months and feel so much better. Glad I did do something about it hehe.

[crb]

yeah, good one. would love to see you try to run a marathon. even a half-marathon. good luck with that. stick to your fruit and your slimfast. i'm sure you and your wife are pictures of health.
Actually, we are thanks. Though I'm no long distance runner, I prefer building muscle. For instance this summer compare and contrast sprinters with the long distance runners at the olympics. Long distance running tends to burn muscle eventually, which is why they're skinny. Not a good look I think. So ya, you're right, you'll never catch me running a marathon. I do run (or ride the bike) and lift daily.

Good luck with your fruit-is-bad weightloss plan.

[crb]

My only other tricks are to use healthy juices/purees to boil/cook food in, and sneak vegetable puree into every single think you can. Most of the time you can't even taste it (a puree made of baby spinach leaves is virtually tasteless while being packed with iron and nutrients, but part of the reason it's so popular for salad is that it has almost no flavor and carries the flavor of the rest of the salad well because of that).

I have a power brownie recipe I make. A bunch of soy protein, dark cocoa powder, stone ground whole wheat flour, egg whites etc... and 1 whole can of pureed pumpkin. You can't taste the pumpkin but it adds so many vitamins and antioxidants.

[crb]

splenda info (http://www.tuberose.com/Sucralose.html)

there are a ton of other sites

Basically the most quoted thing is that testing is not sufficient to say splenda isn't harmful. Especially on long term basis.

But a lot of people seem to think their short term studies prove it can be harmful.
Do you have any better source?

An independent scientific peer reviewed journal or government agency?

Not someone trying to sell "alternative health" books, not someone trying to push natural sweeteners. Someone who both has authority and would not in any way monetarily benefit from people being afraid of artificial sweeteners (I tried a google search myself, and every result was characterized by the above, people whose business is natural eating or alternative health obviously have financial incentive to scare people away from things like artificial sweeteners).

[AestheticDeath]

How bout you look the shit up. I just mentioned it can be bad. Your the one using it. If you don't give a shit, go for it. Wikipedia has a lot of info as well. Citing all kinds of sources. Maybe you care about those. I don't know.

Myself, I won't be using a man made sugar substitute. Especially one that hasn't been tested properly.

[crb]

I said I did try looking and couldn't find anything authoritative and unbiased. And no, I don't consider Wikipedia authoritative.

Most of what I found was someone saying "It contains chlorine as part of it's more complex molecule, here are all the things chlorine can do that is bad, and you should buy my book on alternative natural foods." Ie, obvious motivation to say it is bad, no direct connection between it and any danger, just scaring people ignorant of chemistry who don't realize that just because an atom of something is part of a compound doesn't mean that that compound has characteristics of that element. Oxygen is flammable, hydrogen is flammable, water is anything but, and when you drink it it doesn't break apart.

I'm not trying to berate you or anything, if its true I'm genuinely concerned because I do use it, but everything I've seen just seems like so much bs.

[Kranar]

crb I think you give some solid advice overall.

But about the artificial sweetners, perhaps reading this will be informative:

http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bne-feb08-swithers.pdf

It is from an academic medical journal. In addition, while this study was conducted on animals, a similar study was done on humans, the source of which I am unable to find at the moment. It too came to the same conclusion. Actually, in humans using artificial sweetners resulted in a significant increase in fat compared to those who do not use them.

Anyhow, it's interesting and worth a read. Personally I stay away from artificial sweetners and just stick to common sense to make sure I stay healthy. Don't eat junk food, eat these things called vegetables, read the label as you mention, keep track of calories etc... just simple things.

[crb]

..actually... reading the wikipedia page, it seems they come in on the side of safety...

If one government agency was bribed bamboozled or whatever... but...


Sucralose has been accepted by several national and international food safety regulatory bodies, including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Joint Food and Agriculture Organization/World Health Organization Expert Committee on Food Additives, The European Union's Scientific Committee on Food, Health Protection Branch of Health and Welfare Canada and Food Standards Australia-New Zealand (FSANZ). Sucralose is the only artificial sweetener ranked as "safe" by the consumer advocacy group Center for Science in the Public Interest.[13][14] According to the Canadian Diabetes Association, one can consume 15 mg/kg/day of Sucralose "on a daily basis over a ... lifetime without any adverse effects".[15] For a 150 lb person, 15 mg/kg is about 1 g, equivalent to about 75 packets of Splenda or the sweetness of 612 gm or 2500 kcal of sugar.




Another study published in the Journal of Mutation Research linked high doses (2 g per kg; equal to 10,000 packets per day for the 150 lb person in the above example) of sucralose to DNA damage in mice.[19]

10,000 packets per day.


The sucralose dosages which caused the thymus gland effects referenced in the NICNAS report was 3000 mg/kg bw/day for 28 days. For an 80 kg (176 lb) human, this would mean a 28-day intake of 240 grams of sucralose, which is equivalent to more than 20,000 individual Splenda packets/day for approximately one month.

20,000 packets a day.



The dose required to provoke any immunological response was 750 mg/kg bw/day,[21] or 60 grams of sucralose per day, which is more than 5,000 Splenda packets/day (there are 11.9 mg of sucralose in a 1g retail packet of Splenda).
5,000 packets per day.



The bulk of sucralose ingested does not leave the gastrointestinal tract and is directly excreted in the feces



Critics of sucralose often favor natural alternatives, including xylitol, maltitol, thaumatin, isomalt and stevia. However, those substances are - like most artifical sweeteners - partially accused of having other health concerns,[28][29][30] and natural products generally do not undergo controlled trials before being allowed in food.[31]

That is an important point. Personally I think the FDA should be able to regulate natural foods. People think natural is safe, and this is not true. Many natural substances are extremely dangerous. Natural chemicals are still chemicals. All natural does not mean all safe, it usually just means "not clinically tested."



In addition, sucralose does not break down or dechlorinate.[32] Which is what I said.

They do say this:



Artificial sweetners including sucralose have been identified as possible factors in raising population obesity levels by making the consumer take up more calories later, because it confuses the brain and body responses about sugary substances and calories - associating sweet foods with fewer calories.[34]

which I've heard before, but in the end, I think that is an education issue. I don't think our brains get rewired so quickly like that, more likely is people cheat and think "I ate this low sugar thing, so now I deserve to eat this brownie." Eating splenda certainly hasn't changed my knowledge about nutrition and what foods contain what amount of calories.

[crb]

crb I think you give some solid advice overall.

But about the artificial sweetners, perhaps reading this will be informative:

http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bne-feb08-swithers.pdf

It is from an academic medical journal. In addition, while this study was conducted on animals, a similar study was done on humans, the source of which I am unable to find at the moment. It too came to the same conclusion. Actually, in humans using artificial sweetners resulted in a significant increase in fat compared to those who do not use them.

Anyhow, it's interesting and worth a read. Personally I stay away from artificial sweetners and just stick to common sense to make sure I stay healthy. Don't eat junk food, eat these things called vegetables, read the label as you mention, keep track of calories etc... just simple things.
I was posting at the same time as you, but that makes same points as the last thing I said in my above point.

How is it that eating splenda changes what my brain knows? I know a reeces big cup contains 210 calories. I know a small at Cold Stone with 1 mixin is 500 calories. I am not rat with a tiny brain. I am not going to get confused and think that eating a candybar is healthy because I use splenda to sweeten baked goods and cooked fruit that I make.

I know there have been studies showing a correlation between diet soda and obesity, but a correlation is not causation. There is a correlation between smart kids and homes with new appliances, but no one thinks a new GE Whirlpool Fridge makes kids smart. My dad is unfortunately overweight, and a doctor so he should know better, but he drinks diet coke almost exclusively, and he was overweight, before he started doing it, and drinking it is not the reason he stays overweight,, he simply lacks the discipline to change his eating habits and his generation did not grow up with the nutritional knowledge of us younger folks so he got set in his ways a little too much perhaps.

Or, to say it another way, it is a psychological study, not biological one. Some people perhaps use artificial sweeteners as crutch or a way to fool themselves and then lack the discipline to make any other dietary changes or to exercise regularly. Or, the fact that overweight people are the ones who are more likely to watch what they eat and so they are more drawn to sugarfree foods (and then their problem is perhaps they eat the entire box). In the end, the artificial sweetener is not making the person fat through a biological process, they were likely fat to begin with and it is not helping them lose weight because they lack discipline and are ignorant on portion sizes.

[Kranar]

which I've heard before, but in the end, I think that is an education issue. I don't think our brains get rewired so quickly like that, more likely is people cheat and think "I ate this low sugar thing, so now I deserve to eat this brownie." Eating splenda certainly hasn't changed my knowledge about nutrition and what foods contain what amount of calories.


This isn't the case, it isn't a matter of education as these studies were first done on lab rats, and then were done on humans afterwards. Lab-rats that were fed artificial sweetners became obese, and the same went for humans.

The reason is that natually, animals use taste as an indicator of caloric content. When we use artificial sweetners, we detach the relationship between sweetness and calories. Now because aspartame is so much sweeter than regular sugar (it's something like 20-30 times sweeter), our bodies begin to think that sweet foods in general do not contain even a fraction of the calories that they do. This results in our bodies tolerating far more sweeter foods than it would otherwise if the relationship between sweet foods and calories was not tampered with by artificial sweetners.

That's why animals, including us humans, gain significant weight when we use artificial sweetners. Our bodies simply stop recognizing the relationship between sweet foods and high calory foods and thus thinks that eating a crapload of donuts will only contain a so-so amount of calories.

[NocturnalRob]

Yeah, 18 years later and I finally decided to do something about it.

But, I've lost about 70 lbs in the last 6 months and feel so much better. Glad I did do something about it hehe.

congrats on the weight loss. i tend to fluctuate between 170 and 190 depending on where I am in my training and whether or not I'm lifting heavily. i try to avoid showing off my ribcage if at all possible. apparently that's not attractive.

how'd you manage to shed so much? eating right and exercise?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Since the weather warmed up here, I've lost 15 lbs just doing yard work the past 6-8 weeks or so. I'm being more active since the days are longer and so nice right now.

No changes in diet at all, but I always tended to eat fairly healthy anyway. I eat a mix of fruits, vegetables (love to snack on raw celery that's ice cold - or in a bloody mary), mostly chicken with some beef and very rarely some pork.

I do have to admit, when I'm outside in the sun I drink a ton of water, and rarely eat until I come in. I guess that's kind of a diet change, as opposed to being inside watching tv and eating sunflower seeds or something.

[Some Rogue]

how'd you manage to shed so much? eating right and exercise?

The first thing I did was what I mentioned earlier, stopped drinking soda at all and switched to water. I lost 10lbs or so from that alone. Then I got off the breads, pasta, and sugar. Lost most of the rest from that. I finally hit a plateau, so in the last 3 weeks or so I did start walking, riding a bike and lifting weights and it's just now starting to help.

[iJin]

You guys are all a bunch of fatties in the inside. Don't deny it!

[Stanley Burrell]

You guys are all a bunch of fatties in the inside. Don't deny it!

You can live without adipose tissue, but your kidneys eventually sink into your hips.

[Vesi]

My sister went from a size 30 to a size 14. Now, before you say a size 14 is big, she's 5'11" tall and does have big bones, so really she's just about right for her height. (its' bad to get all caught up in numbers with weight loss) What she did was cut out sugar, refined foods and bread that wasn't whole grain and increased her intake of meat. She also started exercising. She's also almost 40, so to me, it was a great accomplishment. (because it IS harder to lose as you age) I was amazed at the change when I saw her a couple of weeks ago. (she lives in CO and I live in TN and she came to visit) The MAIN thing is she's feeling healthy and the looks are just an extra. (that's her view and a good one I think)

Now, I'm a vegetarian but I'm not thin. (by any means) I eat lots of vegetables and fruits. Tofu, beans/peas, peanut butter and Quinoa (instead of rice) for my protein, along with some nuts. I just sort of mix it up depending on my mood. I also never eat out... but that's more of a 'I don't want my food touched by other people' thing than a health thing. (yes I know the stuff I buy at the store has been touched but I deal with it) I decided a few years ago just to eat when I'm hungry and eat what I want and not go overboard. I really haven't lost or gained weight... but I think I'm fairly healthy. I've sort of taken the route of trying to just have some balance in my life. If I want that occasional bowl of ice cream or some french fries... I have them. I don't beat myself up about it. My main downfall is not enough exercise. (I'm working with a hurt knee here but I can't say that's the only reason I don't exercise more) When I was younger, I used to play racquetball all the time. I lived on pizza, beer and 3 Muskateers bars. I lost weight like crazy. I shudder to think of my diet back then, but oh well. I think a nice balance is the key.

On the sugar issue... I don't eat that many sweets, but when I do, normally I use honey or brown sugar. I'd much rather have those than the substitutes.

Vesi

[Sean of the Thread]

My biggest fuck up is not eating enough. Back when I was a heavy drinker I'd literally go days without eating.

I'd love to find a legit nutritional site or even hire one to get a proper diet on track. I plan on seriously getting back into training once my rib and shoulder gets dealt with.

[Vesi]

My biggest fuck up is not eating enough. Back when I was a heavy drinker I'd literally go days without eating.

I'd love to find a legit nutritional site or even hire one to get a proper diet on track. I plan on seriously getting back into training once my rib and shoulder gets dealt with.

You know my sister told me that she really thinks that was the key to her weight loss. She'd eat something about every 4 hours or so. I think that's one reason I don't ever really lose weight (even though I don't gain it either I wouldn't mind losing some) is because I don't eat enough or often enough.


vesi

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

That's why breakfast is important too. It's hard for me to choke down food when I wake up (I am so not hungry in the morning) but eating smaller meals on a more constant basis keeps your metabolism running, whereas eating just one large meal or not at all puts your body and metabolism into starvation mode and it runs much slower.

[Numbers]

http://peggynature.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/simmons-nude-in-salad.jpg

[crb]

This isn't the case, it isn't a matter of education as these studies were first done on lab rats, and then were done on humans afterwards. Lab-rats that were fed artificial sweetners became obese, and the same went for humans.

The reason is that natually, animals use taste as an indicator of caloric content. When we use artificial sweetners, we detach the relationship between sweetness and calories. Now because aspartame is so much sweeter than regular sugar (it's something like 20-30 times sweeter), our bodies begin to think that sweet foods in general do not contain even a fraction of the calories that they do. This results in our bodies tolerating far more sweeter foods than it would otherwise if the relationship between sweet foods and calories was not tampered with by artificial sweetners.

That's why animals, including us humans, gain significant weight when we use artificial sweetners. Our bodies simply stop recognizing the relationship between sweet foods and high calory foods and thus thinks that eating a crapload of donuts will only contain a so-so amount of calories.
This is crazy talk, crazy.

1. Our bodies do not prefer healthy food. Millions of years of evolution makes our bodies want to be fat. Being fat is protection against starvation in lean times, skinny animals go extinct.

Saying that your body would normally shun sweet foods as unhealthy flies in the face of that. There is a reason high calorie foods taste good, natural selection. Our ancestors who liked high calorie foods ate high calorie foods and so they didn't die off when food became scarce. This is also why sex feels good. Animals that liked sex, had more of it, and so the genes for good orgasms were passed down. Its all very basic darwinian theory.

2. Nothing you eat is going to rewrite your DNA and change your taste receptors in your mouth, sorry, not going to happen.

3. Your body doesn't choose what you eat, your brain does. Only an idiot with a walnut sized brain would think that drinking coke zero must mean regular coke has 0 calories too because they taste the same.

4. Fat people eat more artificial sweeteners usually, but that doesn't mean they make people fat. Fat people also wear larger clothes, do you think largest clothes make people fat? Fat people also tend to sweat more, do you think sweating makes people fat? Most fat people aren't happy with their bodies, switching to diet coke is one of the easiest ways to cut back on your calories, so many of them do that. And maybe that switch helps prevent them gaining an additional 10 pounds a year, but it doesn't do anything to help them lose the 100 pounds they need to lose because they don't change anything else about their diet.

Just because there is a correlation between something, doesn't mean one causes the other. Seeing eye dogs are predominantly owned by blind people, it doesn't mean owning a seeing eye dog makes you blind. Get it?

5. It is ludicrous to think an intelligent human being is going to be tricked into eating high sugar foods because they drink diet coke. I'm sorry, I don't guess the level of calories in my food using my tongue. I'm not a blind rodent living in the dark with a pea sized brain. I turn the package over and I read the label. In a restaurant, unless otherwise stated I always assume everything is real sugar, and generally restaurants don't let you taste the food before ordering so I couldn't do the little taste test guess if I wanted to.

Its crazy to think that a human being is going to go and eat a pie thinking "Well, I drank a diet coke yesterday and the metachlorians in my body communicated to my brain that it was 0 calories despite being so sweet, that must mean that this pie is also 0 calories, so I can eat this pie and not gain weight. My metachlorians wouldn't trick me, because god knows millions of years of mammalian evolution has not encouraged my body to pack on as much weight as possible."

Read the nutrition label on the food you eat.

[Kranar]

This is crazy talk, crazy.


What's absolutely hilarious about you is that because you haven't done even so much as read the many scientific experiments that conclude that aspartame does increase fat, including one that I've linked for you, you've actually made arguments to support my position, as opposed to refute it.

Thank you.

[The Ponzzz]

Maltodextrin is actually in a lot of sweeteners, which is the agent that makes a lot of people fat because it requires a lot of calories to burn off. Also, aspartme increases food crazings, which when you add it to fat people, it doesn't help their case. This is why bigger people stay bigger when trying diet foods (not lean foods, diet soda, snacks, etc).

I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if it was brought up...

[CrystalTears]

Which is why I'm not doing the "diet" foods and just eating the real thing, just in moderate proportions. I'd rather eat the real thing (like sugar) and sacrifice elsewhere or work out more, than to use Splenda or Sweet N Low.

[ElanthianSiren]

to sum up a few tips.

1. No bread products of any sort. After you lose some weight add back in whole grain only, but to start, no more bread products. No potatoes.
2. Eat 5 servings of veggies & fruit a day. It is easier to try to add veggies to your diet than to cut back on other things, but by adding veggies you'll be less hungry for other things.
3. Stop eating when you are full, do not clear your plate if you are full, eat slower so you know when you're full and you can stop.
4. Weigh yourself every day, no exceptions, try to do it always at the same time, like right when you get up.

Pretty damn spot on in my opinion, though i don't bother weighing myself much anymore. I'd add nothing refined in general to that list. That means "whole grain" whatever... unless you're chewing it out of the wheat sheath. Also plant your own gardens. You'll get a workout tending it, it's cheaper, and you can control how much pesticide and chemicals deposits over your food.

Also, most nutritionists are FOS. Figure out what works for you.

I don't believe in eating 3 meals a day or whatever they say. Eat when you're hungry and don't eat when you're not hungry. Sorry if that's been said. I'm just here for the pineapple... mmmm

Also also, I do occasionally eat processed foods if I'm out or with J or whatever. Like CT said -- moderation, but I think of it more like food/body respect really. -Respecting the fact that I might as well be throwing WD-40 into my veins, I resolve not to eat that way most often.



What's absolutely hilarious about you is that because you haven't done even so much as read the many scientific experiments that conclude that aspartame does increase fat, including one that I've linked for you, you've actually made arguments to support my position, as opposed to refute it.

Thank you.

It can also cause lupus like symptoms. And I believe I've heard of people getting leukemia like symptoms then claiming when they stopped using nutrasweet the symptoms abated. Anything that breaks down into embalming agents at temps above 95F isn't for me.

I do use splenda, and thus far, it hasn't caused me to gain weight. Of course, as I'm not two people that we could hold a blind panel on, one could argue that its caused me to not lose weight also. Also, around the same time that splenda came out was when my insulin was switched, though most people actually report weight GAIN from lantus. I dropped about 40 lbs then just kept losing, though I did modify a few things in combination.

[Sean]

What do you all have against happy mediums?!

Anyway if anyone can find a way to lose weight while still drinking beer I'm all ears.

[crb]

What's absolutely hilarious about you is that because you haven't done even so much as read the many scientific experiments that conclude that aspartame does increase fat, including one that I've linked for you, you've actually made arguments to support my position, as opposed to refute it.

Thank you.
This is what happens when you have a lay person read a scientific paper and draw incorrect conclusions.

You linked to one paper, by a journal of psychology. Not medicine, not biology, psychology. And it was for rats. You may not know what psychology is, but it isn't the study of metabolism, endocrinology, genetics, bariatrics. So drawing those types of conclusions from it isn't very bright.

Now I do recall seeing on a news an observational study where they asked a bunch of people to record what they ate and then correlated it to their body weight which found that people who drink diet soda were more likely to be fat, but again, a correlation does not mean causation.

Here are the scientific facts.

1. Sugar substitutes (any filler or mixes aside) contain 0 calories. It is literally impossible for them to be metabolized by your body and turned into fat.

2. Human beings are intelligent animals with the capacity to reason (well, most of us) and we're mostly literate as well. We can read food labels. We will not be confused.

3. Your inference that, where it not for sugar substitutes, we'd crave sweet things less flies in the face of basic evolutionary theory.

Psychology is the study of behavior and thought processes, not biology or metabolic processes. Psychologists do not go to medical school, do not learn anatomy or physiology, at least not to any medical extent. You've taken a psychological study and inferred a biological process out of it. That is where you messed up, and it is dangerous.

If a diabetic were to listen to you instead of his doctor he'd end up worsening his disease because he wouldn't switch to sugar substitutes or sugar free foods because he'd worry about gaining weight from it.

Now, the thing about behavior, is that as logical reasoning homo sapiens, our brain gives us control over it. It is called will power, or discipline, and our literacy gives us tools to fight our base primal impulses.

The reason there is a correlation between being fat and eating sugar substitutes is because of behavior, not biology. Fat people may think that changing to diet coke is enough to lose weight, it isn't for most of them, and so they stay fat. They may use the existence of sugar subtitutes to justify overeating (this pie is made with splenda, so I can eat more of it (nevermind all the butter in the crust)). They may ignorantly consider foods with 0 calories as having negative calories so, in their mind, they think that since they had a diet coke earlier in the day it is okay for them to get large fries at McDonalds. Or, it is okay for them to supersize if their drink is diet.

The solution to correct these issues is not to tell the individual that sugar substitutes are bad and that they should eat regular sugar, but rather to educate them about nutrition so that they realize that they need to make more changes and so that they no longer use sugar free items as ways to justify unhealthy choices.

Additionally, if someone is already educated on nutrition, and is well disciplined in what they eat, telling them that sugar substitutes will just make them fat is, well, dumb. Behavior and making bad choices makes people fat, and while there may be a correlation between people who make bad eating choices and sugar substitutes, it does not mean that someone who makes good choices will suddenly start making bad ones because they use splenda instead of sugar. We are not slaves to our impulses.

Consequently, fat free items have the same problem. Many fat free items have the appearance of health when in reality they are still high in calories because... of all the sugar they have in them. People ignorantly eat them in larger quantities thinking they are being healthy, and they aren't. Again though, it isn't a biology issue, it is an education issue.

[crb]

Or, to sum up.

I would agree that sugar substitutes confuse some people when making their food choices. However, to say that someone who is educated enough to make good choices and understands sugar substitutes will suddenly start making bad choices if they drink diet coke is crazy.

[The Ponzzz]

Actually, crb, my mother was on her deathbed because of sweeteners. Maltrodextrin, does in fact metobolize as a complex sugar, which was spiking her blood sugar to abnormal amounts. She was just diagnosed with diabetes and was told her organs were shutting down. It wasn't until she found out the sugar free food she bought had the chemical agent Maltodextrin which was killing her. Seriously, do your research.

[ElanthianSiren]

Ponzz, if you search on the internet, there's a whole list of sugar substitutes that's rated by the rate at which they degrade in your body. It was put out by someone protesting the atkins meal replacement bars etc as being utter crap (surprise). The guy is a diabetic, and he used his diabetes to test how sugar free the agents in their "low carb" items really were.

He then got a letter back from the Atkins foundation before they bankrupted saying how their products weren't intended for specialized diet use (meaning diabetics).

[Kranar]

This is what happens when you have a lay person read a scientific paper and draw incorrect conclusions.


Your credentials are no more in question than mine. I have referenced experts on the issue which is more than what I can say for you at this point.



You linked to one paper, by a journal of psychology. Not medicine, not biology, psychology. And it was for rats. You may not know what psychology is, but it isn't the study of metabolism, endocrinology, genetics, bariatrics. So drawing those types of conclusions from it isn't very bright.


It is considered fairly dishonest to argue against someone without atleast taking the time to review their sources and conclusions. While I have referenced actual and verifiable experimental work done on this issue, you continue to simply use the word facts in an entirely unjustified manner.

Scientific facts are not about what you say, they are based on empirical evidence. When you find such empirical evidence to justify your claims, feel free to post it.



2. Human beings are intelligent animals with the capacity to reason (well, most of us) and we're mostly literate as well. We can read food labels. We will not be confused.

3. Your inference that, where it not for sugar substitutes, we'd crave sweet things less flies in the face of basic evolutionary theory.

Psychology is the study of behavior and thought processes, not biology or metabolic processes. Psychologists do not go to medical school, do not learn anatomy or physiology, at least not to any medical extent. You've taken a psychological study and inferred a biological process out of it. That is where you messed up, and it is dangerous.


Do you eat food and then tell your body to release insulin into your blood stream to lower your blood sugar levels? Of course not, decisions about how you ingest food and how to process it aren't done by you consciously, they're done by your subconscious, just like the beating of your heart.

If you would just do some simple reading on the issue rather than make up your own conclusions which aren't based on any empirical research whatsoever, you'd see that our bodies have physiological responses to stimulus that are entirely subconsious. One of these responses is towards sweet foods. Our bodies have come to recognize that sweet foods contain carbohydrates. The instant our tongues taste sweet foods, a message is sent to the pancreas that carbohydrates will be entering the body which results in insulin being sent out into our blood stream. Since no actual carbohydrates are being consumed, that insulin simply results in the lowering of our blood sugar level and we begin to feel hungry as a consequence.

The reason why I specifically found information on rats is because you went on to make some argument that somehow if we were just educated, we could make our bodies behave differently. All we need is to educate our brain and then our brain will start digesting things differently. Heck, let's educate our brain so that when we eat chocolate it just craps it out immediately without digesting it. It's not like we have built in and subconscious responses that we just have to learn to work with, nah... that's crazy talk.

[Kranar]

Psychology is the study of behavior and thought processes, not biology or metabolic processes. Psychologists do not go to medical school, do not learn anatomy or physiology, at least not to any medical extent. You've taken a psychological study and inferred a biological process out of it. That is where you messed up, and it is dangerous.


The danger is to ignore the fact that eating is very much a behavioural issue, and my argument is that the behaviour is very much subconscious.

[crb]

Actually, crb, my mother was on her deathbed because of sweeteners. Maltrodextrin, does in fact metobolize as a complex sugar, which was spiking her blood sugar to abnormal amounts. She was just diagnosed with diabetes and was told her organs were shutting down. It wasn't until she found out the sugar free food she bought had the chemical agent Maltodextrin which was killing her. Seriously, do your research.
This is true, but not in large amounts, and it doesn't change the fact that sugar substitutes are recommended for diabetics.

[crb]

The danger is to ignore the fact that eating is very much a behavioural issue, and my argument is that the behaviour is very much subconscious.
You may not be able to control your behavior, I can.

[Sean]

I see lots of back and forth on sugar substitutes and little progress being mad on the how to lose weight while drinking a 6pack of beer front .. and it makes me sad.

[Nieninque]

Don't be American

[Trouble]

I see lots of back and forth on sugar substitutes and little progress being mad on the how to lose weight while drinking a 6pack of beer front .. and it makes me sad.

The trick is to count the beers as a meal. IMO, beer bellies come not from the beer itself, but the fact that most guys eat nachos/wings/pizza/etc while drinking. I drink lots of beer and have stayed thin.

[Some Rogue]

Don't be American

Or, if you read the latest statistics, British.

:p

[Nieninque]

The trick is to count the beers as a meal. IMO, beer bellies come not from the beer itself, but the fact that most guys eat nachos/wings/pizza/etc while drinking. I drink lots of beer and have stayed thin.

How old are you though?

Rimmer from Red Dwarf summed it up; "When you're younger you can eat what you like, drink what you like, and still climb into your 26 inch waist trousers and zip them closed. Then you reach that age, 24-25, your muscles give up, wave a little white flag and without any warning at all, you're suddenly a fat bastard."

[Nieninque]

Or, if you read the latest statistics, British.

:p

It's true...we are following American Trends :(

[crb]

Your credentials are no more in question than mine. I have referenced experts on the issue which is more than what I can say for you at this point.

You've only linked to one study, published in a journal of psychology, which was done on rats, illiterate, primal, rats. You then used this base information and your own ignorant understanding of science and biology and decided to make up biological facts.



It is considered fairly dishonest to argue against someone without atleast taking the time to review their sources and conclusions. While I have referenced actual and verifiable experimental work done on this issue, you continue to simply use the word facts in an entirely unjustified manner.

Scientific facts are not about what you say, they are based on empirical evidence. When you find such empirical evidence to justify your claims, feel free to post it.


1. You've not posted any empirical evidence. A conclusion a researcher draws based on an observational experiment is a theory, not evidence.

2. I reviewed your source and I found a study of the behavior of rats, not a study of the metabolic processes of humans.



Do you eat food and then tell your body to release insulin into your blood stream to lower your blood sugar levels? Of course not, decisions about how you ingest food and how to process it aren't done by you consciously, they're done by your subconscious, just like the beating of your heart.

Actually no, you're not using the word "subconsious" correctly. The metabolism of food is organic chemistry. Your brain's subconsious does not tell your body to digest something, your body is a machine is, digestion of food is just a function it does. You'll notice digestion still takes place in people with severe upper spine injuries, the brain has nothing to do with it (bladder control, though, well, another story).

Also, I have never once posted that you have control over the biological processes happening inside of your body. I said you have control over what you shovel into your mouth. Atleast most humans do.



If you would just do some simple reading on the issue rather than make up your own conclusions which aren't based on any empirical research whatsoever, you'd see that our bodies have physiological responses to stimulus that are entirely subconsious. One of these responses is towards sweet foods. Our bodies have come to recognize that sweet foods contain carbohydrates. The instant our tongues taste sweet foods, a message is sent to the pancreas that carbohydrates will be entering the body which results in insulin being sent out into our blood stream. Since no actual carbohydrates are being consumed, that insulin simply results in the lowering of our blood sugar level and we begin to feel hungry as a consequence.

As if I've never done any reading or say talked about it with the doctor I sleep with. I'm guessing you didn't get this bit about insulin from the psychological study on rats which is the only thing you've linked to, so, source it.

Here is what wikipedia says



Those that consumed diet soda were more likely to gain weight than those that consumed naturally-sweetened soda. Sharon P. Fowler, MPH, who conducted the study, posited that it is not the diet drinks but something associated with their use that is linked to weight gain, perhaps simply that use of diet drinks increased as a person noticed that he or she was gaining weight.

Hmm... sounds like exactly what I posted. Fat people drink more diet soda because fat people try more to lose weight.



Fowler also speculated that perhaps giving the body the "taste" of energy-rich foods triggers a search for the real thing, or, as nutrition expert Leslie Bonci, MPH, RD, put it, "People think they can just fool the body. But maybe the body isn't fooled. If you are not giving your body that food energy you promised it, maybe your body will retaliate by wanting more energy

Sounds to me like a behavior issue of not being able to control cravings, not a biology issue. Just like what I posted.



Animal studies have convincingly proven that artificial sweeteners cause body weight gain. A sweet taste induces an insulin response, which causes blood sugar to be stored in tissues (including fat), but because blood sugar does not increase with artificial sugars, there is hypoglycemia and increased food intake the next time there is a meal. After a while, rats given sweeteners have steadily increased caloric intake, increased body weight, and increased adiposity (fatness).

Again, not biology, but behavior. The rat eats more at the next meal. Luckily, I'm a human, and can choose to limit my portion sizes.

It seems to me its saying that if you eat less calories at a meal you'll get hungry by the next meal and have a risk to overeat. Well, slap me silly and call me susan, who woulda thunk?



All we need is to educate our brain and then our brain will start digesting things differently. Heck, let's educate our brain so that when we eat chocolate it just craps it out immediately without digesting it.

Again, apparently to win an argument you feel the need to invent things to argue against that I never said. I said through education about nutrition you can control what choices you make, not the biological processes that go on inside your body.

[Nieninque]

You may not be able to control your behavior, I can.

Stop posting like a cunt then!

[Trouble]

How old are you though?
I'm 36. I defintiely hit that metabolism wall a few years back which is when I 'discovered' my rule about beer or food. Before I hit the wall, I would drink beers and get an appetizer (or go home and cook food) and be fine, then all the sudden I started putting on weight. Once I stopped eating while drinking, the weight came off. I also switched to lighter beers which obviously helped. I hardly ever exercise so it wasn't anything like that (I'm a super-healthy guy, eh?).

[crb]

oh... by the way....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7652029?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



These results suggest that nutritive and nonnutritive sweeteners in solution are not adequate stimuli for the elicitation of cephalic phase insulin release.


and another one

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9062523?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed


In conclusion, this study suggested that oral stimulation provided by sweet nonflavored tablets is not sufficient for inducing CPIR.

[Sean]

Nothing like drinking on an empty stomach.

[Nieninque]

...phalic phase

You still in that Phallic phase, huh?

[ElanthianSiren]

Again, not biology, but behavior. The rat eats more at the next meal. Luckily, I'm a human, and can choose to limit my portion sizes.

It seems to me its saying that if you eat less calories at a meal you'll get hungry by the next meal and have a risk to overeat. Well, slap me silly and call me susan, who woulda thunk?



Actually it is biology. If you have too much insulin stored in your tissues at work, you will go into hypoglycemia. If you don't treat hypoglycemia, you will go into hypoglycemic shock. If you don't treat hypoglycemic shock, you can pass out. Liver then releases glycogen, which floods your system with stored calories. Therefor saying you just need some extra self control to not treat your hypoglycemia is a little ignorant because one way or another, your body will regulate itself.

I had never read that the sweetners cause increased insulin levels however. That's really interesting. I can see how that would be a huge problem in type 2 diabetics, where blood insulin levels are already usually phenomenally high, due to damaged receptors for the protein.

[AnticorRifling]

10 pages....


This thread could have been opened and closed with this four word tip:

1) Common Sense and moderation

[Kranar]

I had never read that the sweetners cause increased insulin levels however. That's really interesting. I can see how that would be a huge problem in type 2 diabetics, where blood insulin levels are already usually phenomenally high, due to damaged receptors for the protein.


There's a fairly large volume of research on the effects of aspartame. Dr. H.J. Roberts, a former member of the American Diabetes Association has several publications on aspartame's effect on diabetics.

This sounds kind of harsh, but especially with something like diet, everyone is looking for the miracle pill, or the miracle substance that will allow them to eat what they want, really it just doesn't exist, and if one day it does exist it certainly isn't aspartame.

I'm going to second Anticor, common sense and moderation.

[Dwarven Empath]

Instead of splenda, why not use honey?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Instead of splenda, why not use honey?

Honey is an inverted sugar and will be just as "bad" as processed sugar.

Sugar, is sugar, is sugar. Whether you count it as glucose, sucrose, lactose, OMG OR ZOMG fructose.

It's sugar. It's bad for you in any sort of high quantity. Stop intake. Period.