Archer CM training

[Lyonis]

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on what would be a good CM to train in for my archer ranger. My ranks are lacking at this point but they are my top priority to get up to par. My primary goal for the CM's is to increase my defense against CM attacks and maneuvers more so than increasing my hunting ability. I don't have much of a problem killing. I had four ranks of sweep for a while and it was fairly effective, though I imagine the level disparity between myself and the critters I was hunting as well as not being close to singled in CM training hindered its effectiveness. I've been hunting the rift as of late but I'm going to be giving OTF a try in the near future. I have all 30 CM points free to use at this point. My training and stats are as follows...

Lyonis (at level 83), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 210 110
Combat Maneuvers...................| 120 30
Ranged Weapons.....................| 270 170
Ambush.............................| 182 82
Physical Fitness...................| 175 75
Dodging............................| 167 67
Arcane Symbols.....................| 62 13
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 180 80
Spirit Mana Control................| 58 12
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 10 2
Survival...........................| 174 74
Stalking and Hiding................| 266 166
Perception.........................| 270 170
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40
First Aid..........................| 141 41
Pickpocketing......................| 175 75

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 40

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 50

Name: Lyonis Lawliss Race: Sylvankind Profession: Ranger (shown as: Watcher)
Gender: Male Age: 142 Expr: 5732955 Level: 83
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 87 (13) ... 87 (13)
Aura (AUR): 91 (25) ... 91 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Intuition (INT): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Wisdom (WIS): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)
Influence (INF): 55 (2) ... 55 (2)

Thank you ahead of time for any advice that you can give me!

[kookiegod]

Well, rangers don't have a ton of choices for some strange reason.

I'd say sweep for a knockdown move, and feint to toss them into rt.

If you ever get more points, mebbe movement for more DS.

For my rogue archer I have wspec and mobility and grabbing i'm not sure what next, mebbe stunman since i wont do that in the guild, and got sweep, tricks and cheapshots mastered.

~Paul

[Stunseed]

Shadow Mastery will be good for you going into OTF.

Disarm/Sweep are both viable options for defense. Mine's a little different, being sword/board and CM heavy. Feint's a decent one, as well.

Stunseed, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Movement cmovement 2
Dirtkick dirtkick 4
Disarm Weapon disarm 4
Feint feint 4
Hamstring hamstring 2
Side by Side sidebyside 4

< Well, rangers don't have a ton of choices for some strange reason. >

Because semi's aren't supposed to be super good at CM's. Lulz. I have to take a double shafting just to train in it. 12/8 per rank AND I have to pay time and a half cost for the manuevers themselves. Strange reason, indeed.

[Trouble]

Disarm is the most annoying CM I face in OTF. I'm now using a plain 4x bow since I'm not planning on picking up the 45 ranks of CM for Disarm until after I cap.

The others I face in there (throat chop, sweep, knee bash) are nuisances and only rarely dangerous.

The TD CMAN would probably be useful since warding from Adepts (weaponfire) was one of the most dangerous aspects of OTF for me until I hit around 95. Prioritize your spellburst selections for elemental TD, IMO.

I've never really had any CM skills so I can't recommend any for offensive purposes. I use sounds as a set-up spell and aim from the open (which would probably be dangerous as Hell at your level).

[kookiegod]

Oh, I would agree bro, rangers have a very robust and complete spell list, so they shouldn't get everything, but imho is just some strange inclusions and exclusions on the semi and pure lists.

Especially as you said, its double or triple dipping.

~Paul

[Stunseed]

< Oh, I would agree bro, rangers have a very robust and complete spell list, so they shouldn't get everything, but imho is just some strange inclusions and exclusions on the semi and pure lists. >

I'd also agree that semi's should not get everything, but I believe that a profession that actually is forced to use a weapon should be able to wspec. I believe that all professions should have access to side-by-side. I believe Bards should get sbs like Rangers, and Rangers should get cheapshots considering the need for the ambush skill. Paladin's should NOT get dirtkick, and it's my own personal opinion that GS could really shake things up with an open list with variable costs for professional differentials.

[Lyonis]

Oh, I would agree bro, rangers have a very robust and complete spell list, so they shouldn't get everything, but imho is just some strange inclusions and exclusions on the semi and pure lists.

Especially as you said, its double or triple dipping.

~Paul

Yeah, no question the ranger list with minor spirit certainly make us effective hunters even without the CMs. While other professions certainly do other things better than rangers, imo our versatility is unmatched.

Thank you all for the replies and I think after reading all of your advice I think I'm going to work my way up to getting the 5 ranks of disarm for defense and so I can use it barehanded as an archer.

Trouble, you're Barachado/Dimar right? If so it would be awesome to get a couple hunts in with you in OTF. Your ranger guide, while probably seriously outdated by this point, was a HUGE help when I first started out. Plus it'll be a change of pace, if you are Dimar from Dunemaul, from protecting you from gankers to giving a lesser skilled Ranger a hand :)

Though Lyonis will rarely ever admit to being a ranger. He considers himself a rogue with a spikethorn :p Afterall, I can hide, steal, and open most of my own boxes, even though it lacks any sort of finesse, with 125.

[Lyonis]

Shadow Mastery will be good for you going into OTF.



I know I've seen you post your training before and if I remember correct you were either only singled in hiding or lacked it all together. If you are singled and used Shadow Mastery as a CM, did you find that you were able to hide effectively? I'm asking because if I dropped down to 1x in hiding that would free up a shit ton of points.

Though, if that's the case, since I just used my fixskills to drop brawling and pick up 140 it would make me sad in the pants!

[g++]

I recently fix skilled my rogue into an archer, the only thing I regret was getting hiding at all, if I had put all those points in dodge and CM I could just flip the critters off while I fired into their eye, the hiding doesnt seem to make a damn bit of difference for me when it comes to the actual shot it just keeps them from wailing on me. Im pretty sure in plate with all the points in dodge and cm tho I would be pretty much untouchable had I trained correctly.

[g++]

Oh and Im not sure how awsome sneaking is but unless it gives you like a +50 bonus to stalking and hiding gremlocks are not going to be fooled with 166 ranks and they point almost instantaniously, i hate those friggin things.

[Trouble]

Trouble, you're Barachado/Dimar right? If so it would be awesome to get a couple hunts in with you in OTF. Your ranger guide, while probably seriously outdated by this point, was a HUGE help when I first started out. Plus it'll be a change of pace, if you are Dimar from Dunemaul, from protecting you from gankers to giving a lesser skilled Ranger a hand :)

Sure thing. I also have a cleric who is 92-ish who hunts in OTF. I can send you my scripts to get around OTF too.

If you go into the Ducts (which most people who start OTF do), the main threats there are warding from Festering Taints and the maneuver attacks from the Gremlocks. You should be fine with the Grems since I think it's a PT-based CM, just make sure you have herbs/etc on you to heal your hands so so can keep hunting. I forget how high Taints ward, but I can check on it. There is some disease or poison attack from either the Taints or Beings, but it's been literally years since I've hunted in there as like-level so I can't remember how it works. The west Ducts can get real swarmy in the center nexus but there's a safe room two rooms away.

The ones that disarm are the Ithzir Janissaries; they also do the warrior shout that gives you RT. I often just put my bow away when I see them. The Seers have Empathic Dispel which sucks ass and they also have a high CS (I've seen at least 420s). The Adepts have Weapon Fire as I mentioned (tops out at about 400 CS). The Heralds do single dispel and that blurry eye spell. Scouts do sweep/knee-bash/throatchop and like to ambush from the hiding. Initiates like to cast web (I think it's them anyway) and are very easy to kill when they're not wearing WoF.

War Griffins screech which can give you stacking 20-sec RTs, they also pick you up and drop you in another room. If you don't die from the initial impact, you're subject to a long stun when you land so hope the room is clear. They're the only skinnable thing in OTF.

On top of all of that, the most frustrating thing in OTF is the vanishing the Ithzir do. They stay with you and will 'ambush' later.

If you're Voln, there are undead in the East and West Woods that come out only at night. They're crittable and not puncture-immune.

Edit: Oh, and like g++ said, Grems are VERY perceptive. They'll also pickpocket silvers from you but you can get it back from them after you kill them. I think when I hunted them at like-level, I cast sounds at them, prepped 608, waited for them to do something, then cast and ambushed head. Obviously I wasn't an archer then.

[g++]

The biggest problem for an archer in ducts will definately be gremlocks and firing on taints with wall up. For a ranger its prolly not a big deal on the taints cause you can prolly ward them. They cast at about 380-390 i think and they usually walk around with mind jolt pre-prepped. Gremlocks just naturally have about a 360-420 defence versus arrows. If I was a ranger I would just 117 fire left eye. As a rogue Im stuck battling it out with one of the most annoying critters on earth plinking them. Everything else in the ducts is basically fodder if you cant kill a being before they cast a spell you kinda deserve to die lol.

[Stunseed]

I know I've seen you post your training before and if I remember correct you were either only singled in hiding or lacked it all together. If you are singled and used Shadow Mastery as a CM, did you find that you were able to hide effectively? I'm asking because if I dropped down to 1x in hiding that would free up a shit ton of points.

Though, if that's the case, since I just used my fixskills to drop brawling and pick up 140 it would make me sad in the pants!

Heh, I've only ever singled from 0-91. I wouldn't use Shadow Mastery myself, but I can hide when I need to, or when I MUST, I'd rather spend 8 mana than thousand of TP's. The other way I work the system is with dirtkick, which after I score a hit with that, only griffins can still see me hide.

I perfer redux over the hiding thing. It works well for me.

[kookiegod]

I recently fix skilled my rogue into an archer, the only thing I regret was getting hiding at all, if I had put all those points in dodge and CM I could just flip the critters off while I fired into their eye, the hiding doesnt seem to make a damn bit of difference for me when it comes to the actual shot it just keeps them from wailing on me. Im pretty sure in plate with all the points in dodge and cm tho I would be pretty much untouchable had I trained correctly.

I have to agree with you here.

My archer is only 42, and I simply just didn't train in hiding. I got double dodge, etc, well, here...

(at level 42), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 144 44
Ranged Weapons.....................| 188 88
Ambush.............................| 188 88
Physical Fitness...................| 144 44
Dodging............................| 188 88
Arcane Symbols.....................| 138 39
Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30
Harness Power......................| 90 20
Disarming Traps....................| 188 88
Picking Locks......................| 188 88
Perception.........................| 188 88
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 70 15

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 3

Once I get 404, i'll be moving on to more perception and dodge for aiming and DS.

CoL master, master of sweep and cheapshots, working on some others.

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1

As I said, i'm gonna get the second rank of mobility, then move on to something like stunman, since i refuse to do that in the guild.

The magic skills are simply for me to use all the toys I have. Granted, I got a lot which makes up for the lack of hiding, but anyone can do it with imbeds and scrolls, friends, etc.

The bottom line, its just ineffiecient to hide. I'd rather get off 2 shots in 8 seconds with my longbow, then 1, counting the time to hide.

~Paul

[CrystalTears]

I'd rather hide and snipe. I get hit a whole lot less when they don't see me. :)

[kookiegod]

I'd rather hide and snipe. I get hit a whole lot less when they don't see me. :)

Yah, I just don't hit with all the spells I'm wearing, granted i'm not remotely high level, but until I get into a spellburst area, which will take some time, or the Rift, its not going to be a problem.

~Paul

[CrystalTears]

I's puny. I have to hide!

My ranger archer is only 31, but she hides and snipes really well. I use dirtkick to psych them out. I can't afford Shadow Mastery. I mean I can but I wouldn't be able to do anything else for ages.

[g++]

Yah, I just don't hit with all the spells I'm wearing, granted i'm not remotely high level, but until I get into a spellburst area, which will take some time, or the Rift, its not going to be a problem.

~Paul

The absurd thing is to hide on a gremlock you need like 220 230 ranks of hiding at LEAST and thats to occasionally be able to hide. convert that into raw tps and you could be like the wizard rogue if you wanted. No spell burst nearly fully tripled in dodge and 100 rank of CM. Its kind of crazy but hiding takes SO many tps that its actually cheaper to just say screw it and prepare to stand in front of them even at high levels. Get 30 ranks of all your secondary magic skills and 100 extra ranks of dodge instead and you no longer have a need to hide.

I think this is even more so for rangers because it prolly gets to the point where hiding is not an option period for you guys in OTF. Not sure never really been a ranger.

[Stunseed]

< I think this is even more so for rangers because it prolly gets to the point where hiding is not an option period for you guys in OTF. Not sure never really been a ranger. >

Singling in hide, I can hide on everything but scouts, gremlocks, and griffins. If I hit them with dirtkick, I can hide on gremlocks and scouts. About 40% chance to hide on a griffin.

[kookiegod]

In the end, neither option is wrong.

It is a matter of what is fun for you...

Personally, I like to hunt, do a bounty task, double stack if i can, and then go play Halo3 for a bit.

Hiding is fun to some people, I just never got the allure. The mechs have issues, and if i was more social, and i might be at some point, i'd face the same issues as ambushers in groups (or solo ambushers and people who steal critters accidently), and to me, that isn't fun. (And no, I don't want a disk! <weg>)

I think my route will work just fine , and as G++ said , yah, eventually be trippled in dodge, more perception, more one shot, one kills. And Stun's is working out fine, and CT....

All a matter of making it work for you.

For me, I prefer my rate of fire per encounter, plus I'll be able to wear more spells for better DS.

Peace!

~Paul

[Stunseed]

< and then go play Halo3 for a bit. >

Ugh, and my xbox is red-ringed. Damnit.

[kookiegod]

Ouch, it happened to me, well, not the red-ring, but my CD player failed.

I was absolutely impressed with Microsoft...

They sent me a shipping box...

2 weeks later, they shipped me a brand new unit, a free Xbox Gold membership card for 90 days, and a letter of apology.

First time MS ever impressed me.

But when you get it back, lets rock on team slayer. :)

~Paul

[Lyonis]

The TD CMAN would probably be useful since warding from Adepts (weaponfire) was one of the most dangerous aspects of OTF for me until I hit around 95. Prioritize your spellburst selections for elemental TD, IMO.



I've been trying to do some research on spellburst on these boards and from asking my more knowledgeable GS friends. All it did was get me more confused. I got to the barrier last night and I was wrecking shop in the ducts and west woods. 140 was just amazing. Though the TD was a bit of a problem. I was wearing 509, 414, and 202. I was wondering what else do you think I could get away with wearing or what combo would give me the most bang for my buck. 509 is a must though for the archery round time. I've heard conflicting stories about whether or not lores and harness power play a role in spellburst. It would give me more incentive to train in lores more that's for sure.

And thanks again everyone for your replies, they've been really helpful.

[Stunseed]

Some people say lores count for half. I'm not too sure. Stun is singled in HP, 25 ranks of MIU, 10 ranks of AS and 25 ranks of Summon Lore. He wears 401, 406, 414, 503, 509, 202, and 507.

[Trouble]

Bara has 30 ranks each of MIU, Scrolls, SMC and Summoning Lore. He also is 1x in HP. He can wear 202, 401, 406, 414, 503, 508, 509, and 911.