US Sniper shot at Koran

[Nieninque]

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7407187.stm



US sniper shot at Koran in Iraq

An American sniper has been sent home from Iraq for using a copy of the Koran for target practice at a shooting range near Baghdad, the US military says.

The Muslim holy book was found riddled with bullet holes last week by Iraqi police, who also discovered offensive graffiti inside its cover.

A US military spokesman said the soldier had been removed from his unit, sent home, and would be disciplined.

He was unnamed, but was reportedly a staff sergeant in a sniper section.

US military spokesman Colonel Bill Buckner said the incident was "both serious and deeply troubling", but stressed it was an "isolated incident and a result of one soldier's actions".

The US army's commander in Baghdad, Major-General Jeffery Hammond, made a personal apology to local Sunni Arab leaders in Radwaniya, CNN reported.

On arrival, he was met by hundreds of protesting tribesmen.

"In the most humble manner, I look into your eyes today and I say, please forgive me and my soldiers," Gen Hammond said, according to CNN.

The military presented the elders with a new copy of the Koran.

An Iraqi community leader said Sunni Arab tribal units who fought alongside US forces had threatened to quit, but that the US apology had assuaged their anger.

"I was feeling bitterness, but as long as they apologised we are okay with them. Our anger has cooled," Saeed al-Zubaie told Reuters.

Dumbass.

p.s. Cue Dave...

[Fallen]

This is stupid. We used to shoot at targets dressed like russians constantly in Basic Training.

Edited to add, I guess we would have all been sent home if we were shooting at actual russians?

"The Muslim holy book was found riddled with bullet holes last week by Iraqi police, who also discovered offensive graffiti inside its cover."

The only issue here is they got caught.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but shit like this goes on constantly. You think those soldiers aren't angry? Or worse, bored?

[SolitareConfinement]

why is it Arabic people always take soooo much offense to everything when it comes to their religion? im surprised they aren't asking for heads for it

[Latrinsorm]

This is the equivalent of someone shooting at a Eucharist. If you really think there wouldn't be an outcry over that you're crazy.

[The Ponzzz]

Any religion would take offense to their holy book being shot at.

[SolitareConfinement]

This is the equivalent of someone shooting at a Eucharist. If you really think there wouldn't be an outcry over that you're crazy.

what i don't understand is why they take so much offense to it...why can't people just shrug it off and move on with their lives? so people disagree with your beliefs and destroy a copy of something you believe in...honestly what difference does it make in your life if someone thinks allah doesn't exist and that you're a fool for believing in him? none because they are still going to believe what they want and follow their religion just the same are they not? so why stress over something thats a fact of life....eventually someone is going to disagree and make a statement

[Stanley Burrell]

what i don't understand is why they take so much offense to it...why can't people just shrug it off and move on with their lives? so people disagree with your beliefs and destroy a copy of something you believe in...honestly what difference does it make in your life if someone thinks allah doesn't exist and that you're a fool for believing in him? none because they are still going to believe what they want and follow their religion just the same are they not? so why stress over something thats a fact of life....eventually someone is going to disagree and make a statement

IT'S A GOOD THING BUSH PREEMPTIVELY INVADED THE STREETS OF BAGHDAD SO THAT MUSLIM MILITIAMEN DIDN'T SHOW UP ON OUR FRONT PORCHES ARMED WITH M-16S BLOWING HOLES THROUGH THE HOLY BIBLE IN THE STREETS OF WHITE SUBURBIA.

Seriously though, it's whoever's religion's fault it is we're warring with for not making their Holy Scriptures bulletproof. Good thing history never taught us a thing about warring nations decimating holy books in their pillage.

[SolitareConfinement]

i just don't get why people get so offended over religion....at the end of the day why judge someone else....why not look to yourself and try to make yourself a better person instead of judging someone else for disagreeing with your beliefs.

if idiots want to burn bibles or use bible pages to roll up joints or say that the virgin mary was a whore i really don't care of their opinions or actions personally they want to live like a close minded fool so be it...not my problem

[Crazy Bard]

You don't understand religion then amongst many other things.

[Methais]

i just don't get why people get so offended over religion....at the end of the day why judge someone else....why not look to yourself and try to make yourself a better person instead of judging someone else for disagreeing with your beliefs.

if idiots want to burn bibles or use bible pages to roll up joints or say that the virgin mary was a whore i really don't care of their opinions or actions personally they want to live like a close minded fool so be it...not my problem

It's the same concept as arguing over Superman vs. Batman, Star Wars vs. Star Trek, Super NES vs. Sega Genesis, etc.

The only difference is Super NES and Sega Genesis are real things, except Nintendo wasn't telling you to kill all Sega employees and anyone who made a Genesis game.

[SolitareConfinement]

You don't understand religion then amongst many other things.


:rofl: by all means educate me mister guru

[Stanley Burrell]

i just don't get why people get so offended over religion....at the end of the day why judge someone else....why not look to yourself and try to make yourself a better person instead of judging someone else for disagreeing with your beliefs.

if idiots want to burn bibles or use bible pages to roll up joints or say that the virgin mary was a whore i really don't care of their opinions or actions personally they want to live like a close minded fool so be it...not my problem

Oh, totally.

[TheEschaton]

Unlike sega and nes though, religion is at the center of the lives of billions. The problem with the proselytizing religiond (Christianity, Islam, etc) is that someone not believing in your faith is a "bad" thing. These religions are predicated on the idea that there's only One True Way, and all other ways are offensive in the eyes of God.

[The Ponzzz]

The only difference is Super NES and Sega Genesis are real things, except Nintendo wasn't telling you to kill all Sega employees and anyone who made a Genesis game.

Uh, oops? And if it weren't for Phantasy Star and Shining Force, SNES wins hands down!!!

[Celephais]

Solitare, people get worked up over things that don't deserve to be worked up over... people kill for money/oil/etc ... all their lives they've been brought up with the idea that if anyone offends their religion it's the most heinous offense. Asking for them to be reasonable about it just isn't going to work.

[Celephais]

Uh, oops? And if it weren't for Phantasy Star and Shining Force, SNES wins hands down!!!
Yeah... I probably would have killed Sega employees if Nintendo had asked me to.

[Methais]

ON TOPIC:
I got a stormherald + executioner enchant yay.

[Stanley Burrell]

I got GENERALIZED ANXIETY DISORDER. I probably should not drink so much caffeinated ball semen. Which is what this thread is about now, pretty much.

[Methais]

ball semen

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1382/facepalm2ly3.jpg

[Tisket]

what i don't understand is why they take so much offense to it...why can't people just shrug it off and move on with their lives?


An Iraqi community leader said Sunni Arab tribal units who fought alongside US forces had threatened to quit, but that the US apology had assuaged their anger.

"I was feeling bitterness, but as long as they apologised we are okay with them. Our anger has cooled," Saeed al-Zubaie told Reuters.

Sounds like they are moving on quite nicely.

[Latrinsorm]

so people disagree with your beliefs and destroy a copy of something you believe in.You fundamentally misunderstand the place of the Koran in the Islamic religion. It is not just a copy of a book, it is literally Allah (in book form). This is why I made the analogy to the Eucharist - to Christians, the Eucharist is not a piece of bread, it is literally Jesus (in bread form). It has nothing to do with "judging" someone else and it has nothing to do with trying to convert anyone else. It has to do with someone held very dearly to the people in question being brutally assaulted.

If you can claim that your wife or mother being shot at would be something that you wouldn't get "offended" by, then by all means continue with your current line. That you don't consider the Koran or the Eucharist an actual person is immaterial; I can assure you that there are people who don't consider your wife or mother actual persons.

[Stanley Burrell]

You fundamentally misunderstand the place of the Koran in the Islamic religion. It is not just a copy of a book, it is literally Allah (in book form). This is why I made the analogy to the Eucharist - to Christians, the Eucharist is not a piece of bread, it is literally Jesus (in bread form). It has nothing to do with "judging" someone else and it has nothing to do with trying to convert anyone else. It has to do with someone held very dearly to the people in question being brutally assaulted.

If you can claim that your wife or mother being shot at would be something that you wouldn't get "offended" by, then by all means continue with your current line. That you don't consider the Koran or the Eucharist an actual person is immaterial; I can assure you that there are people who don't consider your wife or mother actual persons.

http://www.kopykake.com/images/fisherman.jpg

That is the creepiest fucking advertisement for fish I ever dun' did see. Buying feature-concealing, immune to flesh under fingernails rapist gear. With a longshoreman/dockworker theme.

[Nieninque]

You fundamentally misunderstand the place of the Koran in the Islamic religion. It is not just a copy of a book, it is literally Allah (in book form). This is why I made the analogy to the Eucharist - to Christians, the Eucharist is not a piece of bread, it is literally Jesus (in bread form). It has nothing to do with "judging" someone else and it has nothing to do with trying to convert anyone else. It has to do with someone held very dearly to the people in question being brutally assaulted.

If you can claim that your wife or mother being shot at would be something that you wouldn't get "offended" by, then by all means continue with your current line. That you don't consider the Koran or the Eucharist an actual person is immaterial; I can assure you that there are people who don't consider your wife or mother actual persons.

Was that a long-winded way of saying; "YOUR MOM!"

[SolitareConfinement]

You fundamentally misunderstand the place of the Koran in the Islamic religion. It is not just a copy of a book, it is literally Allah (in book form). This is why I made the analogy to the Eucharist - to Christians, the Eucharist is not a piece of bread, it is literally Jesus (in bread form). It has nothing to do with "judging" someone else and it has nothing to do with trying to convert anyone else. It has to do with someone held very dearly to the people in question being brutally assaulted.

If you can claim that your wife or mother being shot at would be something that you wouldn't get "offended" by, then by all means continue with your current line. That you don't consider the Koran or the Eucharist an actual person is immaterial; I can assure you that there are people who don't consider your wife or mother actual persons.


this is where i strongly differ from them...i would die for my mother/wife if it came down to it...im not going to die or kill for Jesus under any circumstance i don't care what the situation is really...and yet these people seem to seriously often times overreact. I am also incredibly surprised that they took it so well and just said they would quit heh

[Celephais]

this is where i strongly differ from them...i would die for my mother/wife if it came down to it...im not going to die or kill for Jesus under any circumstance i don't care what the situation is really...and yet these people seem to seriously often times overreact. I am also incredibly surprised that they took it so well and just said they would quit heh
That's because you haven't been raised your whole life to beleive that you SHOULD die or kill for Jesus/whoever. Some people have. Some people hold the same level of devotion to religion where it means more to them than anything else.

[Numbers]

Which is why religion is retardedly fucked up.

[Stanley Burrell]

Which is why religion is retardedly fucked up.

I'm going to venture to say that; key word here, organized anything, whereby the get-go agenda is to rally human emotion for financial, social, political and military gain is, as you said, rather Sodom and Gomorrah.

If it wasn't religion, it'd be something else; but, since it isn't something else, it's religion. Glad I could not make sense for you and everyone else.

[Numbers]

No, I meant religion.

I agree with you in that organized anything has the potential to be dangerous. But in religion's case, it's a bunch of people rallying around fairy tales and killing people over said fairy tales.

[TheEschaton]

Ah, but to the people who believe in it, it's not fairy tales.

[Numbers]

That's the scary part.

[diethx]

That's the scary part.

QFT

[thefarmer]

I'm sure that if the same sniper were shooting at the Christian bible, there would be a similar reaction.

[Gan]

You fundamentally misunderstand the place of the Koran in the Islamic religion. It is not just a copy of a book, it is literally Allah (in book form). This is why I made the analogy to the Eucharist - to Christians, the Eucharist is not a piece of bread, it is literally Jesus (in bread form). It has nothing to do with "judging" someone else and it has nothing to do with trying to convert anyone else. It has to do with someone held very dearly to the people in question being brutally assaulted.

Yea, think about THAT next time you shove a piece of bread in the toaster!!!

ITz NOT JUST BREAD MUTHERFUCKERZ!!!

http://home.insightbb.com/~jmengel4/bread/bread_jesus_p.jpg

[Numbers]

I'm sure that if the same sniper were shooting at the Christian bible, there would be a similar reaction.

I think you're wrong.

But that's more of a culture thing than a religion thing.

[Warriorbird]

People've spent hundreds, nearly thousands, of years fighting and killing over religion. The same is not usually true of video game consoles.

[SolitareConfinement]

I think you're wrong.

But that's more of a culture thing than a religion thing.


yes and no...there are some crazy's in the USA over Christianity...for example i have an aunt whom watched an episode of the simpsons once and was so offended by it that she never watched it ever again...the episode was one where they couldn't punish bart, and bart tried to act innocent by grabbing a bible and pretending to read it and his line was "wow time sure does fly when you're reading..." he looks at it "THE BIBLE?!?! EEEW!"

yeah she was so outraged and offended she never watched the simpsons again wrote the Fox network and made a big fuss while saying the creators were heathens and heretics for it...

yes i have an absolutely close minded ignorant blood reletive...but who doesn't?

[Deathravin]

We most certainly wouldn't have heard about it if an american solder was target practicing with a bible.

If we found that the enemy was practicing with bibles as target practice. Then we'd hear about it probably.

Christians are a LOT less insane about their religion on the whole. Southpark proved that to me.

[Gan]

I guess Southpark wouldnt go over well in Islam... eh?

[SolitareConfinement]

I guess Southpark wouldnt go over well in Islam... eh?


im sure parker and stone would end up scream murder style... (hung from a tree disemboweled)

[Numbers]

yes and no...there are some crazy's in the USA over Christianity...for example i have an aunt whom watched an episode of the simpsons once and was so offended by it that she never watched it ever again...the episode was one where they couldn't punish bart, and bart tried to act innocent by grabbing a bible and pretending to read it and his line was "wow time sure does fly when you're reading..." he looks at it "THE BIBLE?!?! EEEW!"

yeah she was so outraged and offended she never watched the simpsons again wrote the Fox network and made a big fuss while saying the creators were heathens and heretics for it...

yes i have an absolutely close minded ignorant blood reletive...but who doesn't?

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Your aunt might have been offended, but all she did was make a big fuss. She wrote a letter. She boycotted. She whined and complained. No real harm done.

Now imagine the Simpsons aired in the middle east, and instead of a bible, Bart reacted that way to the koran.

Knowing what you do about that culture, where honor killings are commonplace, and where rape victims are treated as the criminal instead of the rapist, what do you think the reaction would be? Boycotts? Phone calls?

We all saw how the Danish cartoons fiasco turned out.

But, that's just their culture, right? It just so happens that their entire culture and way of life revolves around their religion.

All religions are absurd. It's just that some are far more dangerous than others.

[TheEschaton]

Islam started in 632, basically 600 years after Christianity. Compare Islam now to Christianity in 1408, and you'd see quite the same reactions. All religions evolve, it's just that Christianity has had a longer time to do it.

The difference is, the globe's gotten smaller, and it's much easier to get in the face of believers of certain religions than it was in the past - and yet the greatest religious atrocities ever were commited by Christians.

[Keller]

Islam started in 632, basically 600 years after Christianity. Compare Islam now to Christianity in 1408, and you'd see quite the same reactions. All religions evolve, it's just that Christianity has had a longer time to do it.

The difference is, the globe's gotten smaller, and it's much easier to get in the face of believers of certain religions than it was in the past - and yet the greatest religious atrocities ever were commited by Christians.

What I'm hearing is that in 600 years the leader of Iran will declare a crusade against Christian nations and claim it is a war of cultures?

[TheEschaton]

Something like that.

[Tisket]

Any belief is enough to divide people.

My husband loves marshmallows. I hate them. We fight. Therefore, marshmallows cause violence. And possibly divorce...

[Stanley Burrell]

No, I meant religion.

I agree with you in that organized anything has the potential to be dangerous. But in religion's case, it's a bunch of people rallying around fairy tales and killing people over said fairy tales.

Well, I mean, no shit.

You could easily garner the caveman intellect to anything historically truthful or false, it's religion, because that's the word we assign -- And it is theistic worship. The whole point is that you, me and most civilized people won't go out on a limb to visibly desecrate objects of caveman brain worship that appeal to an organized group of followers -- And concurrently incite violence as an invasive force targeting a belief system.

My personal belief is that it is so goddamn irrelevant whether this is religious fairy tale, or a cult of Thermodynamics' Third Law adepts: This cannot be allowed to happen. Global fallout in the information age, where we are once again an intrusive force, can severely impact the very lives of our troops. We are well past the point where any military action can be viewed as "defending our freedoms."

Sorta like Evarin said, we have a lot of fucksticks who aren't even aware of the ramifications that their actions can have, and aren't dissuaded from bringing a combat training mentality to the battlefield. Personally, if I was sniper trainer X, paired with mental retardation, my M.O. would also be to build the most effective level of primary tactic, without recognizing what would happen if my soldiers lacked discipline to restrain themselves from something so unbelievably easy not to indulge in. Shoot holy book, or not shoot holy book. Ponder.

If this isn't addressed at an administrative level, we are that much more of a danger to ourselves; religion, when organized, is currently the most manipulative force of human emotion. We are not an intelligent people if our actions are to be this retardedly crass when they damn well can be avoided. Don't assign labels of disbelief: Preserve human integrity, no matter what. Letting people believe in fairy tales to prevent spontaneous human combustion seems a small, if not non-existent price to pay in contrast to these acts of idiocy. Unlike organized religion, this is a preventable idiocy.

[Latrinsorm]

Was that a long-winded way of saying; "YOUR MOM!"ASK UR MOM LULZ
this is where i strongly differ from them...i would die for my mother/wife if it came down to it...im not going to die or kill for Jesus under any circumstance i don't care what the situation is really...and yet these people seem to seriously often times overreact.This is not a difference of reasoning, it's a difference only of premise: you don't disagree that someone you love warrants grave concern, you only disagree on who you particularly love (which of course is true among any people). This is important to make plain, otherwise you end up with statements like "But in religion's case, it's a bunch of people rallying around fairy tales and killing people over said fairy tales."
We most certainly wouldn't have heard about it if an american solder was target practicing with a bible.

If we found that the enemy was practicing with bibles as target practice. Then we'd hear about it probably.

Christians are a LOT less insane about their religion on the whole.Guys, the Koran is really not equivalent with the Christian Bible. It can't be accurately compared in direct analogy.
It just so happens that their entire culture and way of life revolves around their religion.A cursory examination of history reveals that this is not an accurate statement.

[Deathravin]

We all saw how the Danish cartoons fiasco turned out.

I saw some newscast where they asked a normal everyday islamic grandmother about that Danish guy. She said in no uncertain terms if she knew where he was, she would kill him. Flat out. No thinking about it.

A few days later I was talking with my wife in line at the market about that comment, and some islamic woman (not full black dress with just eyes staring out, but just the kind with the scarf over her head - maybe in her 30s with children) overheard us and said she'd do the same. If she knew where he was, she would go kill him.

What frightened me is there was no malice in her eyes, it was just a simple fact. She wasn't joking or saying it to shock, she was just clearly stating a fact.

Ever since, I realized that we're just not the same culture. The catholic religion can change and accept their past faults, and can accept that part of their bible is simply metaphor. I don't think we'll be seeing a return of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades. But these people won't change. They are just flat out fundimentally different than we are.

Not that they're evil or something to be exterminated. But I think they will never stop fighting us while we occupy even an acre of their soil. At this point, even if we did leave forever, it would take a long long time for them to accept that.

[TheEschaton]

People are people. We would have killed hundreds of years ago too, for something as offensive as depicting the prophet Mohammed (PBUH). There just needs to be the tempering of time.

-TheE-

[thefarmer]

Guys, the Koran is really not equivalent with the Christian Bible. It can't be accurately compared in direct analogy.

My original point, and one I still believe, is that there would have been willing protesters over a US soldier using the bible as target practice. Had it made national headlines, the soldier would have probably been disciplined the same as well.

That's really the only comparison that I was trying to make.

[thefarmer]

People are people. We would have killed hundreds of years ago too, for something as offensive as depicting the prophet Mohammed (PBUH). There just needs to be the tempering of time.

-TheE-

How many people were put to death for having a wart or blemish on their body and accused of being a witch/warlock?

[Latrinsorm]

Ever since, I realized that we're just not the same culture. The catholic religion can change and accept their past faults, and can accept that part of their bible is simply metaphor. I don't think we'll be seeing a return of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades. But these people won't change. They are just flat out fundimentally different than we are.It's terrifying that you would make this judgment based on two people you've heard. Don't you see how this makes you exactly the same?
Not that they're evil or something to be exterminated. But I think they will never stop fighting us while we occupy even an acre of their soil. At this point, even if we did leave forever, it would take a long long time for them to accept that.You don't think that some people in America would resist foreign invaders for generations?

[TheEschaton]

You don't think that some people in America would resist foreign invaders for generations?

But Latrin, we would be revolutionaries, fighting the oppressors. For them, we are their liberators, bringers of all things good, they should just sit back an accept it...

[Deathravin]

I'm curious, Latrin... What's so bad about my judgement? I didn't come to the conclusion that their lands need to be turned into a series of radioactive glass bowls.

I came to a simple realization that these people are different than we are. They see their entire life through the lens of their religion. They don't care to logically explore what's best, just what Allah told them was the best. They let their religion think for them.

An entire nation of people would seek out and kill a man for dipicting their prophet regardless of any further information. Their moral compass just isn't the same as ours.

And if they are to develop a more civilized nation. A more civilized way of thinking. It's not going to be because we're in their lands. It's not going to be because we told them to adopt a form of government that they don't care about. And it certainly won't be because our president believes he's on a mission from God to bring civilization to these people... via guns, 'shock and awe', and brute force.

[TheEschaton]

An entire nation of people would seek out and kill a man for dipicting their prophet regardless of any further information. Their moral compass just isn't the same as ours.


First off, your dumbassery is amazing.

Secondly, they are not fundamentally different, they simply have a different religion.

Thirdly, you got the opinion of TWO PEOPLE, and have put those views on an entire religion of people. I'm sorry, but I have many Muslim friends, and that is nowhere NEAR the majority view, you've just heard what you've wanted to hear.

Fourthly, our moral compass isn't exactly something to be admired.

Fifthly, more civilized? The Middle East is the cradle of civilization. Now, maybe you mean more technologically advanced, but that would be a strange argument to make. Or, maybe you mean more Western, but I think the idealogical difference is that some people happen to think that the Western way is certainly not more civilized than any other way.

-TheE-

[thefarmer]

I'm curious, Latrin... What's so bad about my judgement? I didn't come to the conclusion that their lands need to be turned into a series of radioactive glass bowls.

I came to a simple realization that these people are different than we are. They see their entire life through the lens of their religion. They don't care to logically explore what's best, just what Allah told them was the best. They let their religion think for them.

Change Allah to God, and this can be said about Christians, Jews, etc etc.

Also, who's 'we'? Christians? White people? Americans? Western culture?

[Deathravin]

I'll give you that my generalization about a whole nation of people wanting to kill the cartoonist is wrong. What really shocked me was that a grandmother said she'd tear him apart or die trying. A mother of 3 told me she'd kill him right in that grocery store if he were there.
That's shocking to hear. To wish such on a man who drew a cartoon. It's unfathomable to me.

American's moral compass isn't too bad. I haven't stumbled on any mass graves, or seen an evangellical behead somebody who didn't believe what he believed just for the shock of it, or seen a roadside bomb go off in the middle of a super market, in at least two or three months. These people are exterminating eachother for their beliefs, and us for being there.

I don't see how saying we need to leave them alone means anything but that. They're different. We should leave them alone. We can't leave them alone until we get off our dependance on forign oil. Since we're doing that we might as well get off our dependance on oil in general. And Since we're doing that we might as well switch to a renewable and clean source of energy.

Imagine if we spent even 1/10th the 500,000,000,000.00 dollars we spent on the war so far, on R&D on new battery, recycling, and clean renewable energy technologies. 50 billion dollars is a lot of money. It would go a long way toward more efficent, self sustaining energy systems.


Anyway. Whatever. There's no fix, and no amount of us bitching at eachother is going to do anything for anything but frustrate eachother.

[TheEschaton]

You're hopeless.

[Stanley Burrell]

Islam started in 632, basically 600 years after Christianity. Compare Islam now to Christianity in 1408, and you'd see quite the same reactions. All religions evolve, it's just that Christianity has had a longer time to do it.

The big evolutionary margin is between the time that The Church of Scientology was formed and the Jedi religion culminated.

[Gan]

You're hopeless.

Thats been said about you too.

;)

[Deathravin]

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-Winston Churchill

[Ilvane]

I'm sure that if the same sniper were shooting at the Christian bible, there would be a similar reaction.

I was going to say the same thing.

If it were Iraqi soldiers shooting a bible, you bet there would be outrage.

Angela

[Deathravin]

I'm not sure I've ever seen anybody's mind changed from a forum post. I don't think I ever will. If you want to see people sucking in your ideas like sponges, teach 2nd grade. Otherwise, be prepared for a long debate where both parties have the same thoughts as they did when they went in.

Changing sombody's mind is just as hard as changing their religion.


And by your thoughts, the Jews have a 1200 year jump on Christians... They should be peaceful and self-realized. I heard they cured war.

[CrystalTears]

Changing sombody's mind is just as hard as changing their religion.Not true.

And people's minds have been changed around here on occasion when presented with facts they weren't aware of and decide to rethink things. Maybe they won't admit to it, but it happens. I've changed my mind on things after it being discussed here. No idea or opinion is set in stone.

Religious beliefs, however, are a different matter entirely. You can't prove or disprove faith, so those arguments/discussions always frustrate me because I see them as little else than the non-believers trying to upset and hurt the believers for having faith.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm curious, Latrin... What's so bad about my judgement?There are over a billion Muslims in the world and you felt confident making a judgment based on two, then you let that judgment blind you from reality. (Not every Islamic person "would seek out and kill" ANYONE, let alone a cartoonist.) In short, you've done exactly what you find so barbaric in "those people" - the only difference is that you don't claim your stereotypes are written down somewhere.
And if they are to develop a more civilized nation. A more civilized way of thinking.Europeans were putting each other on the grid-iron while Islamic people were inventing algebra. There's nothing in Islam or Middle Eastern "culture" that prevents a "more civilized way of thinking"; if anything is fundamentally blighted its European cultures.
Otherwise, be prepared for a long debate where both parties have the same thoughts as they did when they went in.I would research how often and what sort of people fall back on this excuse for ignorance if I could convince people to fund it as easily as I can get funding for nanostructures.

[Kranar]

I came to a simple realization that these people are different than we are. They see their entire life through the lens of their religion. They don't care to logically explore what's best, just what Allah told them was the best. They let their religion think for them.

I don't who the heck you're talking about when you use the word 'we' but you sure as heck better not think you speak for the majority of Western civilization when you spout off incredibly ignorant generalizations.

Yes, kudos to you, you heard some grandma and some woman in a grocery store make a claim that they'd kill a cartoonist who I'm sure has encountered many Muslims on the street and surprise... he's still alive. Way to go taking your narrow minded opinion and then claiming that all of Western civilization thinks like you do and that you're in a position to claim that 'they' are different from 'us'.

Do you have any understanding of history or do you just go by what you hear in grocery stores? I would have never guessed that so much could be learned about an entire population of a billion people in a grocery store or from a grandma on TV.

[thefarmer]

I saw MTV's "The Real World:Allah Edition" and know everything about the middle east now!

[Tisket]

It's hot when Kranar gets cranky.

[Deathravin]

I don't who the heck you're talking about when you use the word 'we' but you sure as heck better not think you speak for the majority of Western civilization when you spout off incredibly ignorant generalizations.

Yes, kudos to you, you heard some grandma and some woman in a grocery store make a claim that they'd kill a cartoonist who I'm sure has encountered many Muslims on the street and surprise... he's still alive. Way to go taking your narrow minded opinion and then claiming that all of Western civilization thinks like you do and that you're in a position to claim that 'they' are different from 'us'.

Do you have any understanding of history or do you just go by what you hear in grocery stores? I would have never guessed that so much could be learned about an entire population of a billion people in a grocery store or from a grandma on TV.

Actually the cartoonist is in hiding, and has been in hiding since he drew it up.

Fine, if it makes you feel better. The generally accepted societal rules and morals of the muslim societies around the world are generally drastically different than the ganerally accepted societal rules and morals of the christian soceites around the world (and wheather you choose to believe it or not, America is a generally christian society).

You're very angry about these labels. You have yet to show any thoughts of your own about it, just bitched about mine. Do you have any for any type of debate? Or are you just going to tear others thoughts apart?

Cause anybody can tear others down, to put your ideas out there and debate them (albiet not very wise on this forum) is a bit different than ripping others apart.

[thefarmer]

Fine, if it makes you feel better. The generally accepted societal rules and morals of the muslim societies around the world are generally drastically different than the ganerally accepted societal rules and morals of the christian soceites around the world (and wheather you choose to believe it or not, America is a generally christian society).

Where are you getting the 'generally accepted' viewpoints from?

Did you learn it in school? Anecdotal stories? TV? What?

Edit: I'd like to know what these 'generally accepted' viewpoints are for each. Since you want a debate, let's compare them then.

[Kranar]

Did you learn it in school? Anecdotal stories? TV? What?


Probably from a grocery store.

[Trouble]

You're very angry about these labels. You have yet to show any thoughts of your own about it, just bitched about mine. Do you have any for any type of debate? Or are you just going to tear others thoughts apart?

I once asked someone on this forum to elaborate from their one-word reply to a post and got the quote in my signature. Don't expect much as far as intelligent debate here at the PC. Usually it's something along the lines of "you suck because you can't read my mind!! The fact that you had differing circumstances in your life is irrelevevant because only what happened to me and things that happened from my point of view are the truth!! FU! This is Dar."

The PC is good for the sharing of ideas and exploration of options and solutions within a certain discussion boundary; but as far as pure debate goes, it's a pure e-peen special sauce injected vat of hatred.

;)

[CrystalTears]

I once asked someone on this forum to elaborate from their one-word reply to a post and got the quote in my signature. Don't expect much as far as intelligent debate here at the PC. Usually it's something along the lines of "you suck because you can't read my mind!! The fact that you had differing circumstances in your life is irrelevevant because only what happened to me and things that happened from my point of view are the truth!! FU! This is Dar."

The PC is good for the sharing of ideas and exploration of options and solutions within a certain discussion boundary; but as far as pure debate goes, it's a pure e-peen special sauce injected vat of hatred.

;)

Way to generalize the entire PC community based on the answer from one member.

:tongue:

[Stanley Burrell]

Change Allah to God, and this can be said about Christians, Jews, etc etc.

Also, who's 'we'? Christians? White people? Americans? Western culture?

Nay.

http://www.payallin.com/media/tomchrist.jpg

http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/MaceWinduWallpaperV3.jpg

Does he look like a bitch?

[Daniel]

Fine, if it makes you feel better. The generally accepted societal rules and morals of the muslim societies around the world are generally drastically different than the ganerally accepted societal rules and morals of the christian soceites around the world (and wheather you choose to believe it or not, America is a generally christian society).

.


You do realize that there are several countries in the Middle East that have significant Christian and Muslim Societies co-existing peacefully and that this isn't a new phenomenom, correct?

[Gan]

Probably from a grocery store.

Tabloid section.

[sst]

[QUOTE=Latrinsorm;732157]It is not just a copy of a book, it is literally Allah (in book form).[QUOTE]

DAMN Allah got shot the fuck up.

I loled a bit when i first read it... at the same time thinking about how moronic this retard that did it is... and why the fuck is he getting sent home for it... shit if i knew thats all it woulda taken i might have been tempted to do shoot one up myself a few times over the last three weeks, damn my new job.

[Stanley Burrell]

Like I said, a problem in middle management administrative officials.

Eliminate a terror cell.

And then compromise everything you've just done by creating ten new sleepers because your dumbass recruit had to make sure a piece of bullet-riddled holy doctrine lay next to a mass of corpses. I honestly thought snipers were a new breed of remaining ground units that didn't have to sort of have douchebaggery hard-wired into their combat effectiveness.

So ass-fucking backwards. And just that URRRR moment after you may actually have a flat out strategic win. So fucking preventable. Times infinity. Damn it.