Score one for the good guys

[GSTamral]

Just watched the local news, and saw something that honestly struck me as surprising.

4 months ago, a man and his wife, after having taken a walk through the Essex County Park were accosted by members of Newark's First Street Gang, who demanded their money. A scuffle ensued and the man's wife was critically injured, with the man himself sustaining only minor injuries.

A day later the man followed one of his attackers to a friends home, who was also one of the gang members. He shot the attacker, the fellow gang member, and the fellow gang members wife multiple times, killing all 3.

2 weeks ago his wife was released from the hospital and is now in the process of fully recovering from all of her injuries. And two days ago, the day before Christmas, the Essex Co. Prosecutor, feeling that he would be unable to overcome a temporary insanity defense, released the man to a period of probation as well as an undisclosed amount of time in psychological counsel.


In this day and age of the law protecting gang members and lawyers like johnny cochran helping people get away with murder, its nice to see that the law sometimes does work in the favor of the normal people. As far as I am concerned, street gangs in America are domestic terrorists, one and the same with any other terrorist in the world. It truly does make me think that maybe, if more people like this existed, maybe more gang members would be off the streets and in a coffin, where they belong.

[Kitsun]

While I'm not sure I want to condone vigilante justice in that brutal form, it is very hard to surpress a smile at that bit of news.

Thanks for sharing.

[Snapp]

I wouldn't say it's a great thing to go out and kill three people, but I am glad they gave him such a weak sentence. Only thing that kinda bothers me is that he killed the gang member's wife. Granted, she's guilty by association.. but still kinda harsh.

Yes because vigilantism is so much better than gang activity. Personally, i understand what the man did and couldn't say i would do any different in his situation. However, it is a dangerous precedent you set when you put people above the law for whatever reason. Just as i'm sure its easily justifible for that man to commit crimes i'm sure the same can be said for many other convicted felons. Personally, i think it was the wrong thing to do and anybody who gives a damn about the law should feel so as well.

As for you comments about more people like that existing. They do exist, and beleive it or not alot of them are in gangs. There is a very thin line between good and evil, and alot of times people have no control of the external influences that can push them over that line. So it make it any better? No, not really but be weary of passing judgement when you, yourself have never walked in another person's shoes.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Prosecutor, feeling that he would be unable to overcome a temporary insanity defense

I hate insanity pleas.

[Hulkein]

Nothing wrong with a little vigilanteism.

[Rastaman]

Except the murderous kind.

[Syberus]

I mean if you're going to be a vigilante or plead insanity... don't kill them, do something to make them think twice like shoot them in the kneecaps or the inside of their elbows (i can only imagine the agony that would cause) not that I would ever actually shoot someone.. but i'm not sure I could bring myself to take someone's life

[Rowi]

Beat my wife or touch my kids id be insane for a very very long time! I woulda done the same thing, the dude beat my wife not knowing if she will live? I woulda shot his to.

[Jenisi]

Had he not killed them, they probally would have saught revenge on the guy if he made it out of prison anyway. Maybe the little gang members will be too scared after that to fuck with anyone.

[GSTamral]

RangerD1, not to shoot the gun, but given your stance on the matter, you will have to understand that your feelings on the matter isnt much more than cacophonous banter in my ears, as I am sure my feelings will be much the same to you. I believe you would, in my own classic enterde, have me believe that the drug pushing gangs are the saviors of society, providing shelter and money for the poor, akin to Robin Hood, virtual saints of our time who are indeed, simply misunderstood good sumaritans.

No, I didnt grow up on the streets. No, I didnt sell drugs or get involved with such people at any point in my life. Yes, if my family was shot up by gang members, I would put the family estate to full use to ensure the gang members, their families and their children, all die and never walk the streets again.

I've seen what gangs do from the other side. I know someone who was killed over the contents of their wallet by a gang. I know a girl who stands a shade over 5 feet tall and weighs a little more than 100 lbs who was beaten up by no less than 4 people (what courage they showed, 4 guys on a tiny girl), because they wouldnt even give her the chance to simply hand over her purse, they felt the need to prove their manhood and take it by force.

I don't care if you're white, black, orange, or purple. If you go out and hurt people for kicks and to prove yourself, you might as well join the Osama fan club. You do at home what they do from afar, only you do it every day. If you sell drugs to kids, or pay kids to push drugs, I don't care if you buy a turkey dinner for everyone on the block, you're a terrorist.

If you steal for food, and do so without violence but out of sheer need, then that is tragic, and a moral dilemna void of right and wrong.

I shed no tears for gang members killed in shootouts. I prefer to shed them for the innocents who are shot by them. if only America fought domestic terrorism with the same vigor they do abroad, perhaps some inner cities and projects might be saved, some children could actually pursue an education without being harmed for trying to evade the system that so encircles them in shrouds of violence, drugs, and utter mediocrity, damning their future children to the same plight.

First and foremost, please put down the thesaurus. You have absolutely nothing to prove to me or anybody else.

On to the points.


have me believe that the drug pushing gangs are the saviors of society, providing shelter and money for the poor, akin to Robin Hood, virtual saints of our time who are indeed, simply misunderstood good sumaritans.


I would have you beleive no such thing Tamral. I can not excuse all the actions of every invidual, nor would i have any desire to do so.

However, in your blind and indiscriminate hatred for any entire community of people ( because yes that is what they are), you do nothing more than to provoke and and preserve the thought processes that prepetuate the street gangs.

I would have you believe that these people are no different than you or I, but are rather a subject to the circumstances of their life. Circumstances that you could not, and have no desire to even understand.


No, I didnt grow up on the streets. No, I didnt sell drugs or get involved with such people at any point in my life. Yes, if my family was shot up by gang members, I would put the family estate to full use to ensure the gang members, their families and their children, all die and never walk the streets again.

And i wouldn't blame you for doing so in any regard. Like i said in my previous post i have no problems with what that man did. However, what i find most amusing is that you demean and then foster the same kind of actions in the same breath. Or do yo beleive that gang members are devoid of the basic right to defend themselves and their families simply because of the associations they carry?

You claim it is a good thing that this man killed the wife of a gang member even if she had nothing to do with the crime in question. I won't question your sense of morals, but would you feel the same way if that woman's brother turned around and killed that mans sister in retaliation? Somehow i think not.

Its this simple lack of consideration that allows for the perpetuation of the gang mentality in all of earths societies. That man had no more a right to do what he did, then the gang members did in the first place. And you can differienate all you want for whatever reason, but all you do is encourage the people you chastise to do the same thing. And you wonder why they don't give a fuck about you? Its simple, because you don't give a fuck about them. Its too easy to blame other people for the troubles of society without looking at yourself and the people around you.


I've seen what gangs do from the other side. I know someone who was killed over the contents of their wallet by a gang. I know a girl who stands a shade over 5 feet tall and weighs a little more than 100 lbs who was beaten up by no less than 4 people (what courage they showed, 4 guys on a tiny girl), because they wouldnt even give her the chance to simply hand over her purse, they felt the need to prove their manhood and take it by force.

And i've seen what your society has done to mine. Why do you think the projects, gangs and everything you hate so dear exist in the first place? Do you not forget the hardships and stigmatisms the minority people in this country had to endure for hundreds of years? But i assume thats alright because it allowed for the continued prosperity of peope like yourself, but on the flip side of the coin its not alright for the people who have been oppressed to turn around and do what they have to do to get ahead.


If you go out and hurt people for kicks

Yes, because its all about having fun. Your ignorance of the issues at hand are showing again Tamral.


If you steal for food, and do so without violence but out of sheer need, then that is tragic, and a moral dilemna void of right and wrong.


We've had this discussion before Tamral. You didn't make any sense then and i doubt you will now, but i'll pose the same question. "What do you do, when in the course peacefully acquiring food for you and yours, violence or severe hardship is brought to you?" Are you simply shit out of luck, do you then submit yourself to the travesty that is your life? Or do you act in the same manner that those who would have you stay there act in? For me the answer is simple.


I shed no tears for gang members killed in shootouts. I prefer to shed them for the innocents who are shot by them. if only America fought domestic terrorism with the same vigor they do abroad, perhaps some inner cities and projects might be saved, some children could actually pursue an education without being harmed for trying to evade the system that so encircles them in shrouds of violence, drugs, and utter mediocrity, damning their future children to the same plight.

Alas, until you choose to accept the fact that this very attitude does more to perpuate the mentality that you are so staunchly against than anything else, it will continue.

The point that you are so unwilling to accept, is not that Gang members are all good and benevolent, but rather not all of them are evil incarnate like you are so quick to claim.

[Weedmage Princess]

Eh..I can see how this sort of thing ultimately does more harm than good....But I can't help but say "Atta boy." No matter how much shit a person may go through in their life, they do NOT..under ANY circumstances...have the right to steal and hurt/possibly kill innocent people. It's rough that the gang member's wife got killed...but...that's the way the cookie crumbles..pick a better mate. ::shrugs::

[Kitsun]

>And i've seen what your society has done to mine. Why do you think the projects, gangs and everything you hate so dear exist in the first place? Do you not forget the hardships and stigmatisms the minority people in this country had to endure for hundreds of years? But i assume thats alright because it allowed for the continued prosperity of peope like yourself, but on the flip side of the coin its not alright for the people who have been oppressed to turn around and do what they have to do to get ahead. - RangerD1

I have a small problem with that. There are ways to 'get ahead' in life and then there's crime. Coming from a difficult time does not make crime right or justify it in any way. I don't see violent beating oppression going on, earning a living doesn't require savagery.

And who decides what a crime is? Society today might be remarkably different, but the repercussion of the "crimes" of the past are still felt in todays society. I was lucky, in that i had a white mother who stressed education above all else. That alone was the spark that allowed me to have a leg up on my peers. Even still, if i had not done certain things to stay afloat, i would not be here. I would have had no chance to use my abilities to help everybody else. You can deny that, like Tamral tries to but its my reality.

Fuck man, look at the origins of the street gangs in America today. Then tell me its not a direct result of the society that they lived in.

.that's the way the cookie crumbles..pick a better mate. ::shrugs::

And i'm quite sure the gang members could say the same thing for the man's wife. ::shrug::

[Weedmage Princess]

Yeah but..the man wasn't out there mugging someone, or looking to hurt anyone. They approached him first...critically injured his wife. He did nothing to them

That brings the gang members wife into it...where?

[GSTamral]

RangerD1, newsflash:

1) I'm not white, nor have I or any members of my family prospered at the expense of America's past.

2) My parents were immigrants, coming at seperate times because they could not afford to do better. My father lived in the heart of Harlem for nearly 3 years saving up and living in virtual poverty to be able to bring my mother here. They then spent the better part of 4 years even worse off while my mother finished medical school, and my dad got his master's degree.

3) After a year or two of saving up to buy a house after they began both working, their apartment was robbed, probably by the local drug pushing ass pirates that called themself a gang. Luckily, they didnt have much of value. Stealing from the poor, a new record low....

4) The apartment complex they lived in averaged more than 1 break in a week, back in 1973. My dad carried around a knife at all times to protect himself from ass pirate members, as he was constantly verbally discriminated against by these gang's for not being able to speak proper english.

5) My parents are now multimillionaires, having risen from a late start out of worse poverty then you can possibly imagine. What was wealth back in India was next to nothing when they came to the US, and they made it. It is amazing how something so simple as getting an education can get oneself out of these projects. Whats more amazing is that none of the drug pushers ever seem to figure that out.

some interesting points of note.
the gangs, who you claim are a discriminated against minority struggling to survive, were quick to discriminate themselves against others, so pardon the lack of sympathy for that bullshit.

as for "peacefully stealing food", how about robbing a grocery store after hours? How about stealing from a restaurant freezer? It is interesting that these places never seem to have any issues, because the main targets are always jewels, drugs, and other commodities easily hawked for cash.

You would have me believe that a gang member is no different from myself, they are just under different circumstances. Well, I can't speak for myself, as I was never raised in such a situation,and getting an education is more than a simple way to exit such a situation.


<<
And you wonder why they don't give a fuck about you? Its simple, because you don't give a fuck about them. Its too easy to blame other people for the troubles of society without looking at yourself and the people around you.
>>>

There are plenty of people I don't give a fuck about, because I don't know them. That doesnt mean I go around killing them, or injuring them. As for hurting people for kicks, yes it happens many a time. Youths beating up another youth because they don't like him. this mentality continues with them into adulthood, because they simply choose not to grow up.

Are all gang members evil incarnate? No. As individuals, many of them might be stronger, better people. But under the influence of gang activity, theft, drug pushing, and murder, the gangs themselves are evil incarnate. Association to them involves you in that schema, whether or not as an individual, you would have made the same choice.

At the very least, the sick fuck ratio among gangs is 5 to 7 times higher than in normal America, and in my beliefs, quite akin to what we are seeing in the middle eastern religious extremism.

It is amazing how something so simple as getting an education can get oneself out of these projects.

Yes, it is. However, the example of your father and mother who both obviously had an equivilency of a bachelors degree isn't quite the same.


as I was never raised in such a situation,and getting an education is more than a simple way to exit such a situation.

And having never been raised in that situation, how can you give an honest assesment to the simplicity of gaining such an education?


At the very least, the sick fuck ratio among gangs is 5 to 7 times higher than in normal America

And as we both know, this is based upon nothing except your personal prejudices, so excuse me if i give this zero credibility when compared with my personal experiences.



some interesting points of note.
the gangs, who you claim are a discriminated against minority struggling to survive, were quick to discriminate themselves against others, so pardon the lack of sympathy for that bullshit.


The only thing i find interesting about this is that you can fault the gangs for this, but not the majority who perpuated the attitude.

I'm glad your such a big man that you can honestly say you would harbor no hard feelings to the people who have oppressed you. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world is not as godly as you.


To reiterate my initial point. I don't condone the actions of the people who beat this man and his wife, but at the same time i don't condone the actions of the man who took the law into his own hand.


Afterall, if its alright for him to make his own circumstances then why is it not alright for everybody else?

Be careful of the precedent you set, because it might come back to haunt you.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by RangerD1

.that's the way the cookie crumbles..pick a better mate. ::shrugs::

And i'm quite sure the gang members could say the same thing for the man's wife. ::shrug::

I've got to come down with Ranger on this one.

I totally sympathize with the victims and their families, but there is simply no way anyone can excuse the killing of the wife of the other gang member.

The end result if we ok this is that we all are free to kill someone who has wronged us and heck while we are at it we'll kill anyone we happen to find with them since we are clearly "temporarily insane".:thumbsdown:

[Ravenstorm]

Sorry but that doesn't make him a good guy. That makes him a murderer.

Raven

[GSTamral]

<<<
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the very least, the sick fuck ratio among gangs is 5 to 7 times higher than in normal America
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And as we both know, this is based upon nothing except your personal prejudices, so excuse me if i give this zero credibility when compared with my personal experiences.

>>>

Here are some examples of cities containing over 1 million people, the first three of which have heavy gang activity, the latter of which have minimal gang activity. All of these cities have at least 2% of their population living under the gross poverty line, which is the equivalent to less than 9,400 in household income.
These numbers are also from 1997, because the text I have doesnt go past that.

Violent Crimes per 1000 citizens/yr:

New York City, NY - 33.8
Los Angeles, CA - 39.6
Detroit, Mi - 34.2

Houston, Tx - 13.5
New Orleans, La - 17.4
Atlanta, Ga - 11.8

Let me change my statement. The sick fuck ratio among gang members might be closer to 3 to 1. Other cities such as Newark, NJ with less than a million people are over 40, so that relegates the argument of biggest cities to null, and then you have cities like St. Louis, Cincinatti, Pheonix, all of which have significant minority populations (above 25% minorities living in the cities) who post some of the lowest crime numbers in the country. You think poverty doesnt exist in these cities? You think everyone is just well and dandy? Not everyone turns to drugs and violence. Some people actually use their brains, and make it the right way, without hurting others.

So your making the claim that Atlanta, New orleans and Houstan TX have a minimal amounts of gangs?

Atlanta-
Georgia, particularly Atlanta, is a significant cocaine distribution center in the southeastern United States. Numerous criminal groups based in Atlanta supply cocaine to distributors in various cities throughout the state as well as to distributors in Alabama, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina, and Tennessee, according to law enforcement responses to the NDIC National Drug Threat Survey 2001. Law enforcement officers in numerous cities report that Atlanta serves as a distribution center for their cities; these cities include Birmingham and Mobile, Alabama; Jackson, Mississippi; Raleigh, North Carolina; Myrtle Beach, South Carolina; Chattanooga, Knoxville, and Memphis, Tennessee; and Hamilton, Ohio (near Cincinnati).

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs3/3669/cocaine.htm

New Orleanes
Street gangs play a prominent role in drug distribution in Louisiana: 4,800 documented individuals were affiliated with 155 gangs identified in 24 parishes throughout the state as of 1999

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs0/666/overview.htm

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by RangerD1
So your making the claim that Atlanta, New orleans and Houstan TX have a minimal amounts of gangs?

Having lived in Houston and now living in AUG, I would say the figures from 1997 do not reflect current activity.

When I went to east TN for xmas. I went to a very rural area (Chestnut Hill located in Jefferson County). There are gangs there. On the back of stop signs I noticed stuff from Vice lords. so it is everywhere.

[Caiylania]

I feel horribly for what that man and his wife went through, but by doing that he made himself no better than the men who attacked him.

By killing the gangster's wife, he went over whatever line he hadn't yet crossed.

Personally, when it comes to gang's, I don't know as much as I should. But I feel that if you live in those areas, you should raise your own kids to know better, get them their high school education and if they really want out of there they can join the military.

If you don't want your kids to suffer through that kind of childhood, don't have any. If I was poor, lived in a violent neighborhood, and knew I could not provide a safe and healthy situation for kids I wouldn't have any.

But since that isn't going to happen, people need to learn to stop blaming society for everything and get their butts in gear.

There is NO excuse for committing violent crimes against strangers, and it is just as wrong to repay violence with violence. Like someone said, that guy killed the gangster's wife. So her brother then kills the guy's sister. So sister's husband kill's the wife's brother. Then the brother's wife then goes after the sister's husband..... where does it stop?

Took me about 2 minutes to find those facts to disprove your retarded ones. Not that crime facts are indictive of anything, unless you believe gangs are the only perpertrators of crime. I'd find houstan but Texas is big and i don't feel like really looking.

Originally posted by theotherjohn

Originally posted by RangerD1
So your making the claim that Atlanta, New orleans and Houstan TX have a minimal amounts of gangs?

Having lived in Houston and now living in AUG, I would say the figures from 1997 do not reflect current activity.

When I went to east TN for xmas. I went to a very rural area (Chestnut Hill located in Jefferson County). There are gangs there. On the back of stop signs I noticed stuff from Vice lords. so it is everywhere.

Okay NM. Got first hand accounts here.

[Hulkein]

He saw stuff written on a stop sign, that really doesn't hold much credibility with me.

Every city has gangs, I think Tamral is arguing the activity of certain gangs in some cities.

[GSTamral]

I never heard myself say there was no gang activity in Atlanta, Houston, or new Orleans. I simply said the relative gang activity level is LOWER. MUCH LOWER.

In 1997 there were more than 4800 gang members in Harlem alone, let alone the entire New York City.

More gangs = more violent crime, more murders, more drugs

Less gangs = more peaceful city.

Tamral, your an idiot. First and foremost, LA and New york have significantly larger populations than Houstan, Atlanta and New orleans. That alone throws off your "Evidence" Second of all, there is a very large margin of error in the correlation of your statistics. The main reason being that not all violent offenses are committed by gangs.

Heres some real evidence to refute your claims

First number is total population and last is number of violent crimes.

Los Angeles 3,763,486 189,278 =.05
Phoenix 1,366,542 104,975 = .076
Dover, CONN 32,650 2,037 =.062

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/01crime2.pdf

[Back]

Originally posted by RangerD1
Tamral, your an idiot.

Heres a good one for you Tamral http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/1997/1001/crime_violence.html


The authors show that most killings in America do not have their origins in criminal activity-most stem from arguments. In 1992, arguments led to 32 percent of American homicides, while felonies and suspected felonies accounted for 16 percent. It is not just burglary and robbery that are more deadly in America, it is arguments after traffic accidents and barroom fights, say the authors.

[Back]

Tamaral has issues. Major white boy issues.

New York City is the safest big city in the country, according to a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The FBI?s 2002 "Crime in the United States" indicates that while crime increased nationwide, New York City?s crime rate actually decreased 5% to the lowest level since the 1960s. In addition, the city?s murder rate dropped 9.6% in 2002 to reach the lowest level since 1963.

The FBI?s ranking of New York City as the safest large city in the United States means that, of all American cities with populations of 1 million or more, New York City has the lowest rate of total crime committed.

"These statistics are terrific news for New York City?s visitor industry," said NYC & Company President & CEO Cristyne L. Nicholas. "With winter approaching, millions of people and families from around the world will consider a trip to New York City to see its many magical holiday attractions. New York City is one of the world?s foremost family destinations and these new FBI crime reduction figures reinforce what a safe place it is to visit."

UPDATE: DECEMBER 15, 2003:

According to FBI crime figures released December 15, 2003 for the first 6 months of 2003, New York City remains the safest big City in the United States. Year to date, crime is at its lowest level since 1968. Total crime in the City has declined almost 5.5% from last year.

Of the 210 cities reporting with populations greater than 100,000, New York City was ranked 194th, between Ann Arbor, Michigan and Orange, California. Of the nine cities with populations of more than one million reporting to the FBI, New York City had the lowest crime rate during the first 6 months of 2003.

Over the course of the past year, the crime rate continued to decrease from what were already record lows at the end of 2002. The FBI reports that New York City?s violent crime rate is down 3.3% in 2003 compared to a nationwide reduction of 3.1%, and the City?s property crime rate is down 8.7% compared to a nationwide reduction of only .08%.


http://www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=1091

I can keep going Tamral, i got another 14 hours at work and i'm bored as hell. Any more facts?

[Kitsun]

Originally posted by RangerD1
And who decides what a crime is? Society today might be remarkably different, but the repercussion of the "crimes" of the past are still felt in todays society. I was lucky, in that i had a white mother who stressed education above all else. That alone was the spark that allowed me to have a leg up on my peers. Even still, if i had not done certain things to stay afloat, i would not be here. I would have had no chance to use my abilities to help everybody else. You can deny that, like Tamral tries to but its my reality.

Fuck man, look at the origins of the street gangs in America today. Then tell me its not a direct result of the society that they lived in.

I believe the US Judicial system gives us a very good idea about what a crime is.

I have no idea what crimes of the past your referring to.

I do not believe organized crime can place blame upon society for their own creation. Collective society did not place a gun to gang members' heads and tell them to form up and start commiting crimes against them.

Collective society did not place a gun to gang members' heads and tell them to form up and start commiting crimes against them.

Maybe not, didn't give them many other options either.

Still waiting on your facts Tamral.

[Back]

Tamaral is a tool.

[Warriorbird]

No. Tamral is a Republican.

[Back]

Not all republicans are Tools. He's just crazy is all.

[Warriorbird]

Naw...but a certain percentage simply can't really grasp the lives of someone in different circumstances than their own. Even worse are the ones that have a chip on their shoulder about it.

I know some very intelligent Republicans. Heck, until his downfall, my cousin was the Republican Speaker for the Virginia House of Delegates, and a pretty damn powerful man (highly intelligent, no common sense, however).

[Bestatte]

Re: the whole statistic stuff...

Tamral, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason there's more crime in concentrated populations, is because criminals go where they can commit more crimes?

I mean - if I was a thieving lying backstabbing gang leader, I don't think I'd pick East Bumfuck Wisconsin as my first choice of residence. What am I gonna do for coin, mug a cow?

No, I'll go where the money is. So that I can grab me a piece of it. And the money's in New York. Shit, inside of an hour, if I was a really good pickpocket, I could probably haul home more cash than I could in a whole day in Atlanta.

And murders? Shit. Who the hell am I gonna murder in some rural shit-town, my second cousin? Fuggedaboudit. Las Angeles has lots of oddballs, I'll just pick one out of the crowd during rush hour.

Gangs? In a small town, who the hell's gonna BE in my gang? The mayor? Or maybe the butcher down the street..heh.

Criminals go where they can most easily commit the crimes. And generally, that's in highly concentrated populations.

Bestatte has spoken, Tamral is full of shit.

[Vixen]

As a former victim of some pretty horrible gang related violence, I cant help but say way to go for that one.
Southern California was completely immersed in it when I was there, and I can only assume, as I don't live there any longer, that its just gotten worse.
I know the feeling of wanting to go off and kick someones ass or even kill them for something they did to you or someone you love, but I'd have to say I kinda felt sad about the wife part.
No one really knows how she ended up being a gang members wife, whether she condoned it, whether she was trapped in it. So in that respect I kinda feel sorry for that one.

Anycase, pardon my babbling, sore subject I guess, but Bestatte is right, the crimes are where the people are. Supply and demand so to speak.

An unusually mouthy J.

[Hulkein]

What Bestatte said was stupid as hell. The majority of gang members don't have the money to just move to a new city, let alone join a gang.. You don't just fill out an application to join a gang. Most members grew up in the city where they are in a gang.

[Hulkein]

People normally only join a gang because they're desperate enough to. A guy growing up in a small town (East Bumfuck Wisconsin) has a high probablity of getting a good education because small towns usually have tight-knit communities where people look out for eachother and stop anyone from stooping so low. If you're poor and growing up in NY with a single mom who has 10 kids with 7 different guys, then gangs offer everything you need (At least that's what it looks like for the kid in poverty.)

[Latrinsorm]

Killing is always wrong. It's wrong when a gang member drives by a 12-year-old and shoots her in the head. It's wrong when her father tracks down the gang member and puts a knife between his ribs. It's wrong when a civil servant lethally injects a being who tortured 15 toddlers to death. It's wrong when a Marine picks up a rifle and kills a terrorist.

Even though the gang member has been oppressed. Even though the father goes mad with grief. Even though it stops him from doing it again. Even though it allows me to sit here typing away without a second though for my security.

Killing is always wrong.


Originally posted by RangerD1
Do you not forget the hardships and stigmatisms the minority people in this country had to endure for hundreds of years? But i assume thats alright because it allowed for the continued prosperity of peope like yourself, but on the flip side of the coin its not alright for the people who have been oppressed to turn around and do what they have to do to get ahead.

Had to. Had to. Had to. My grandparents were Polish on one side, German on the other. Came in around WW1. Germans sure had it easy back then. Eastern Europeans sure had it easy back then. Who the hell are you addressing that "minority" statement too? Unless one immigrated in with the Boston Puritans, it pretty much sucked to start out in America for everybody.

While I think Tamral isn't white, as a white guy I feel offended by that Prosperity bullshit. You know why I got to go to college? I earned a big-ass scholarship, that's why. I watch black kids go to my school free of charge because hey, they have more melatonin than me, they need a break. I watch my brother not get into the college he's dreamed about his whole life because hey, white boys just don't have that special something. Prosperity my ass.

I pray that you can't tell me it doesn't infuriate you when someone says "I'm black, therefore I need help from the government/law in order to get into a good school" or "get a good job" or "get out of trouble". How can you stand it when someone uses their race/situation as an excuse?

Originally posted by Hulkein
What Bestatte said was stupid as hell. The majority of gang members don't have the money to just move to a new city, let alone join a gang.. You don't just fill out an application to join a gang. Most members grew up in the city where they are in a gang.

So you have no idea what your talking about. Gotcha thanks.

[Hulkein]

What did I say wrong?

Unless one immigrated in with the Boston Puritans, it pretty much sucked to start out in America for everybody.

While i understand what your saying, i don't think there is even a comparison. Life was rough all around, just so happened it was rougher for some than others.


I pray that you can't tell me it doesn't infuriate you when someone says "I'm black, therefore I need help from the government/law in order to get into a good school" or "get a good job" or "get out of trouble". How can you stand it when someone uses their race/situation as an excuse?

Actually, i hate affirmative action and feel it does more harm then good. You demonstrated wonderfully why...because it does nothing to heal the underlying problems and simply creates a widening gap in racial relations. I can certainly see the need for such a program while the underlying problems are being addressed, but the simple fact remains that they are not being adequated addressed.

If you want to mend the educational gap, start at the bottom where its the most effective (and important). Do something about the deteriorating inner city school systems, K-12, and i can guarantee you'll see a decrease in violent crime and gang activities in the same areas.

I'll admit again, i was lucky i had a white mother who stressed the importance of education and knowledge above all else. Which is serving me quite well at the present moment. However, even with that seed planted i wouldn't have made it this far, for not some of the actions i have taken. Take from that what you will.

Originally posted by Hulkein
What did I say wrong?

Nothing. What you said is indictive of some gang members but not really all of them.

[Hulkein]

lol, well then why'd you say I have no idea what I'm talking about? I didn't say that I was 100% correct, but that most gang members in a city were born in or very near that city, that's all.

okay my bad ;)

[Bestatte]

Yeah that would be all well and good Hulkein, if this thread, and my post, was about gang members. It isn't though. It's about crime, criminals, and various thoughts on why criminals congregate in certain areas. Gangs make up a part of the subject but certainly don't represent the whole.

Criminals go where crime is easiest to carry out. That is the premise. Feel free to argue against the premise, but don't pull the "yeah but gangs live in the slums" shit. It's weak, it's not universally true, and it's nitpicking. If some day, some magic wand was waved over big cities and the world view decided that gangs were silly.. and whenever a gang walked around in Harlem everyone would make fun of them til they cried and ran home to their mommies..

The gangs would cease to exist in Harlem and *possibly* move to east bumfuck wisconsin if they REALLY thought they needed to exist. They would take their crimes elsewhere - wherever it would be easiest to commit them and enjoy their criminal lifestyle.

Try real hard to focus on the premise: Criminals go where crime is easiest to carry out.

[Hulkein]

Yeah, and try to focus on making valid points about the topic being discussed and not one that isn't pertinant.