Another legal question.

[Stunseed]

Here is the situation.

I have an employee with multiple issues with theft and manipulation of a system. I followed the corrective action path, but frankly the employee should have been terminated by now.

While on vacation, my boss got with Human Resources, and HR gave him the go-ahead to terminate the employee. She was terminated, and escorted out of the building. Less than ONE day later, HR contacted the people above and we were forced to take her back. Why? Because of the mere threat of the employee using the color of her skin in a lawsuit.

1. As a person involved, what exactly is my fate if I continue to do my job and attempt to have this thief removed?

2. What legal action do I have to proceed to in order to get around such an issue? Ethics are CLEARLY in question, and I've pretty much been told that we cannot fire her.

3. Seeing as how my career is in possible limbo due to my actually doing my job, what type of things should I look into as far as legal action?

[NocturnalRob]

FYI, you've now fucked yourself. She has basically been given the green-light to do whatever the fuck she wants. Those types of situations should be handled with care and proof of her theft/incompetence/manipulation/whatever should be well-documented and monitored before firing her.

Now you've dug yourself into a hole.

As far as your job goes...how does her performance (or lack thereof) affect you? Is this something that reflects poorly on you? Are you in a position to terminate the employee?

[Stunseed]

I have physical proof. Not once, twice, but three times.

< As far as your job goes...how does her performance (or lack thereof) affect you? Is this something that reflects poorly on you? Are you in a position to terminate the employee? >

As a supervisor, if I let her continue then it gives EVERYONE the free pass to do whatever she wants. Her performance affects my numbers, which is my job performance, and/or bonuses ( yah right ). As far as terming her, it's now out of my hands.

I'm more worried that because of this, any chance of me being promoted is gone. The inactivity of the HR department, along with the simple idiocy of it all is quite possibly costing me thousands of dollars a month in position differential.

[thefarmer]

Document everything you do concerning her.

Do not have a conversation with her by yourself. If the situation requires a face to face conference, call your boss or another superior (preferably female and of the same ethinicity)

[Warriorbird]

Talk to a lawyer for advice. There's some employment law tricks you can do... it is just delicate to do while continuing to play effective office politics.

[Parkbandit]

Bullshit. Treat her like you would ANY employee and follow your own guidelines for employee coaching and counciling. You and your company have just been "Jacksoned" or "Sharptoned" and allowed a piece of shit employee to use race as a blackmailing tool.

Do you need to call a lawyer everytime you follow the company policy to terminate a thief or just if that thief is black?

[Stunseed]

Document everything you do concerning her.

Do not have a conversation with her by yourself. If the situation requires a face to face conference, call your boss or another superior (preferably female and of the same ethinicity)

No one is of the same ethinicity in a supervisory level.

Any verbal conversation is documented. Any paperwork issuement is given with another female supervisor present.

What is ROFL about it, is the fact that the accused had the gall to tell me a electronic journal lied. Computers lie. What a dumb c-bag.

[The Ponzzz]

PB has it dead on. Get a lawyer (the company) and get rid of her.

[Stunseed]

< Do you need to call a lawyer everytime you follow the company policy to terminate a thief or just if that thief is black? >

My boss is an HR-freak. He calls HR before he shakes twice before zipping up. He calls once someone is on a paperwork trail, which I can agree with...I just hate that at this point I've done everything I could in a professional manner, only to get this. I don't even really want to work for a company that has so much bullshit like this going on.

[Warriorbird]

Apply for other jobs. You definitely need to get rid of this employee to continue to do yours effectively there. My "call a lawyer" advice was for dealing with this from your own personal level. You shouldn't be having a problem (this is upper management incompetence) but you seem to be.

[Parkbandit]

< Do you need to call a lawyer everytime you follow the company policy to terminate a thief or just if that thief is black? >

My boss is an HR-freak. He calls HR before he shakes twice before zipping up. He calls once someone is on a paperwork trail, which I can agree with...I just hate that at this point I've done everything I could in a professional manner, only to get this. I don't even really want to work for a company that has so much bullshit like this going on.

Hilton was the same way.. I never called HR until I was done with whatever decision I made. I have terminated tons of employees of all races.. and I'm 2-0 with the labor board. As long as you treat every employee the same and have your counciling sessions documented.. they can't do shit. I love the ones that claim "You are firing me because I am black!"... and you hired them to begin with. Those are my favorite.

[Warriorbird]

I fired a ton of people and never had any problem either. At the same time... I had supportive upper management. That was the issue I was pointing towards.

[AnticorRifling]

Start stealing. If you're caught site this case as reference for the corporate standard. If fired sue for prejudice.

[thefarmer]

Bullshit. Treat her like you would ANY employee and follow your own guidelines for employee coaching and counciling. You and your company have just been "Jacksoned" or "Sharptoned" and allowed a piece of shit employee to use race as a blackmailing tool.

Do you need to call a lawyer everytime you follow the company policy to terminate a thief or just if that thief is black?

I had a white employee do the same thing to me (get fired by me, claim racial issues, got his job back by corporate), as his supervisor.

[Tea & Strumpets]

The only way you can fire an employee is if you catch them banging a donkey (and it has to have happened on company property).

[Stunseed]

< You shouldn't be having a problem (this is upper management incompetence) but you seem to be. >

Because I am middle management, I get the train rolled on me. Fucked from above, fucked from below. It's to the point I feel like pulling a Sean2 or an Office Space and just shovelling shit for a living to make a decent figure.

I am also fucked because I am in position limbo. Overqualified for my current position, underqualified due to the monetary change to move up ( hourly vs. salary ). Honestly? I could move up twice with the experience I have ( equivalent to a bachelor's in most circles ) but because of politics and the current economy, I'm stuck.

[Parkbandit]

I fired a ton of people and never had any problem either. At the same time... I had supportive upper management. That was the issue I was pointing towards.

Yea.. I read it as if he had to call a lawyer because she was black... but I get your point. I still would never call a lawyer, since I know I am in the right... especially in Florida. If you treat every employee the same exact way (1 oral, 3 written, cya) and have in place a meticulous paper trail (starting off with a tight Company Policy and Employee Agreement), you can pretty much leave your HR department out of the termination process.

[AnticorRifling]

To date, at my present company, I've fired:

Black chick - insubordination
Asian guy - insubordination
White guy - theft
White guy - no call no show (that was my brother.... ahh family)
White guy - disorderly conduct (fighting with other techs)

Good times!

[Stunseed]

< If you treat every employee the same exact way (1 oral, 3 written, cya) and have in place a meticulous paper trail (starting off with a tight Company Policy and Employee Agreement), you can pretty much leave your HR department out of the termination process. >

This is what my boss preaches. Yet....here I am. I caught her the first time, it was oral. Second and third, paperwork was issued along with electronic journal proof. While on vacation, she did it again and they attempted to terminate her.

[Tsa`ah]

The security of corporate employment ... at it's finest.

They, not you, caved at the threat of a discrimination case. There's nothing you can do outside of protect your own ass.

I would do one of the three.

1. Get another job
2. Push the thief off into another department
3. Get myself into another department

[Tolwynn]

Get out now.

There is no way you're going to rewrite your entire corporate culture, especially when they're ready and willing to cave this easily.

Also, if they need a scapegoat to axe to mollify her, guess who will be first on the list? You can just imagine how your own termination for racial discrimination would look to prospective employers.

Make sure to toe the line 100% in your last days there, don't give them one shred of policy to possibly hang you on, and as soon as you get home, polish up that resume and start shopping it out.

[NocturnalRob]

cut her brake line

[Some Rogue]

If you treat every employee the same exact way (1 oral, 3 written, cya) and have in place a meticulous paper trail (starting off with a tight Company Policy and Employee Agreement), you can pretty much leave your HR department out of the termination process.

Fuck all that, 1 theft, and they're gone. There's no second chance on that. Everything else, yeah, they get the 3 writtens and they're gone.

[Some Rogue]

Because I am middle management, I get the train rolled on me. Fucked from above, fucked from below. It's to the point I feel like pulling a Sean2 or an Office Space and just shovelling shit for a living to make a decent figure.


Yep, been there before myself and I did pull the Office Space for awhile. 5 years in hell working the inner city of Chicago and it was kill myself or kill half the people I worked with. Glad I got out when I did.

[Parkbandit]

Fuck all that, 1 theft, and they're gone. There's no second chance on that. Everything else, yeah, they get the 3 writtens and they're gone.


Yea.. which was part of our Company policy and Employee Agreement... steal our shit and we'll shit can you, no questions asked. There were 20+ things on the list like stealing.. one infraction and you are made available to the industry.

[Drew2]

Is at will employment something only Texas does or something?

[Tolwynn]

Florida does it for 90 days, after that, you're stuck.

[Stunseed]

< Florida does it for 90 days, after that, you're stuck. >

Ding, ding, ding. :(

I'd have no problem shoving a n00b out the door.

[Stretch]

<3 the race card. Except not really.

Meanwhile, I've been passively trying to get fired for a good three months now. No dice.

[AestheticDeath]

Trying to get fired? Why not just quit?

[Daniel]

Yep, been there before myself and I did pull the Office Space for awhile. 5 years in hell working the inner city of Chicago and it was kill myself or kill half the people I worked with. Glad I got out when I did.

Yea right. Like they wouldn't have came back at you after like 2.

[Daniel]

Trying to get fired? Why not just quit?

Because he's Asian and that would shame him and his family.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Like everyone else is saying - Call a lawyer. Consider talking to your own non-company sponsored lawyer. You don't want her to turn around and try to sue you in a civil suit.

[Sean]

Is at will employment something only Texas does or something?

This is the guy you should be asking for advice .. when it comes to getting fired he's head of the class.

[Some Rogue]

Yea right. Like they wouldn't have came back at you after like 2.

Pfft, management was white. I'd have killed them first.

[Daniel]

Hey those Polish motherfuckers don't play

[Snapp]

Fuck all that, 1 theft, and they're gone. There's no second chance on that. Everything else, yeah, they get the 3 writtens and they're gone.

:yeahthat:

I can't believe your HR dept would cave so fast... especially for obvious theft. I'd look for a new job if that were the case.

[Kyra231]

Is at will employment something only Texas does or something?

No way, Michigan is hard about that. I've seen a lot of people fired with NO reason stated on their termination papers because they don't have to give you one.

I'd bail fast on a company that caves to the race card. My job at a ltcf was horrible that way, to the point of said persons screaming & cursing in front of state inspectors & they were not fired or disciplined...it all goes down hill from there.

~K.

[AnticorRifling]

Indiana is an at will state as well. However it's always best to CYA in these situations, it's just less headache down the road.




I'd bail fast on a company that caves to the race card.

~K.

100% agree. Get the hell away from that before it turns into something that drags you down with it.

[Stanley Burrell]

My guess is that your boss is a white-livered pussy and doesn't know how to fire people.