So am I a cold hearted bastard or what?

[Tsa`ah]

Back to back posting hurts.

The most annoying and obnoxious person I have ever worked around had a baby 9 weeks ago. The time she was away on leave was nearly blissful. Her return was the harbinger of the apocalypse.

While this annoying bitch was pregnant, she continued smoking and continued drinking. One would think that after 35 years of life, the partying would wear thin eventually. So 9 weeks ago she delivers the baby at full term. A healthy 4lb, 3oz, 14-inch baby. If that is what you consider healthy.

My heart broke for the poor baby. Under-weight and under length even at term.
The child was kept at the hospital for a week after delivery and then released to the idiot mother.

Yesterday morning the poor child passed away in her sleep. As of right now, I don't know the cause, but I'm willing to bet a years salary that the child would have lived had the mother not smoked or drank during pregnancy.

This is where I become the cold-hearted bastard. From one end of the plant to the next there are banners of condolences for this woman. In the cafeteria, in the front lobby, and all over e-mail, there are pleas for donations for this grieving mother. I certainly do not doubt she is grieving. I also do not doubt she is getting a penny from me. She had life coverage for her child as is a payable option provided by the employer.

Because I pointed out that the last thing this woman needs is money from co-workers, and I alluded that the bitch should be in jail for manslaughter... I'm a cold-hearted bastard.

I feel for the child... My heart continues to break every time I think of her. I have no empathy for the mother. I feel nothing but contempt for her. She a loud mouth gossip hound who did nothing but trash talk a woman that died in a car accident last year leaving 4 children orphaned. She neglected the health of her unborn child for addiction and fun, and I'm expected to shed a tear for her.

She belongs in prison.

[peam]

I'd be in the same boat as you.

There's nothing wrong with the way you're feeling. She wouldn't get a dime from me, either.

[Ravenstorm]

Sounds right to me.

Today, you can't even claim ignorance about how bad smoking and drinking is for a fetus.

Raven

[Khaitiff]

This woman needs to be slapped just like all the womeno who get pregnant for the ability to get more food stamps.

I would not give this woman a penny I found on the street. She deserves to die for killing that child.

[Snapp]

That is flat out ridiculous, and she should feel a lifetime of guilt for smoking and drinking during pregnancy. :( So, no, you are not the cold-hearted person in that story. The one who neglected her baby even before it was born is.

[Solkern]

I hate the females that claim they are having a child to keep a guy, or purposely get pregnant to make the guy stay. BULLSHIT!

Wtf are you talking about.

[Tsa`ah]

I'm wondering the same thing. Perhaps start a different thread?

This one is about me being a cold hearted bastage.

[The Cat In The Hat]

*Edited.. just because it's more information than people need

:saint:

Cat

[Edited on 12-24-2003 by The Cat In The Hat]

[Weedmage Princess]

Ugh..that's all I can say..is ugh.

No matter how much I may hate someone, I wouldn't wish the death of a child on anyone...I can't imagine what that must feel like. I also can't imagine what would possess a pregnant woman to do things to risk their child's well being. Yes, I agree, this was her fault...

I hope she realizes what she's done and if she ever decides to have another child, she takes better care of herself and baby.

[Stacey]

This really make's me sad. My husband and I have been trying to have a child for 2 years and can't because my tube's messed up because of a disease I had. To think that someone who is able to have a baby and not do everything that will make it healthy but won't so it make me mad. I think that every woman who is pregnant should have to hear MY STORY. Maybe, they would do what ever it takes to make sure that the baby is healthy.

Stacey

[HarmNone]

No, you are not a cold-hearted bastard. Sounds to me like you have a sense of responsibility and a conscience, two things this woman obviously lacks.

May the wee one pass gently back into the whole. We are more than we were, because this child lived.

HarmNone has lit a guiding candle

[Edited on 12-24-2003 by HarmNone]

[Rowi]

So this child was home for 8 weeks? 2 months? I dont see the connection, if there was anything wrong at all the doctors would have seen that problem wouldnt they?. Blood work shit like that. Not saying the drinking helps at all thats the one of the worse things you can do when carrying child other then crack or something..........I mean SIDS happens all the time everyday!. 2 months at home seems like a long time at home. I can see that if it was like still-born or died within a day or something but 2 months? sounds like sids..........AFS is seen at birth so i dunno, just my opinion.

[Edited on 12-24-2003 by Rowi]

[HarmNone]

Studies have shown a link between smoking during pregnancy and SIDS. Something about nicotine being deposited in the brain of the baby and making certain receptors in the effected area less responsive. I am not sure of all the details, unfortunately, and my medical resourse is asleep. ;)

HarmNone

[Rowi]

I cant say much about smoking........other then every link or post someone could say about it. I or someone else could show a counter link or post to it, not much real hard proof on smoking other then born with less weight but i dont believe that to much myself. Remember I am not sticking up for this woman so love me!

[HarmNone]

Studies have also shown a definite link between low-birth-weight and smoking mothers-to-be. Since I am not a scientist, I shall not presume to doubt the veracity of the results of such studies.

Better, by far, to be safe than sorry. :)

HarmNone

[Rowi]

I agree, but i must admit my wife smoked with all 4 of my boys, although she went from 1 pack every 2 days to a pack a week i dunno if that means anything but all 4 of my boys weighed over 8 pounds and 19 inches long..cant say i agreed with her. but thats why i say i dont think smoking does anything but once again thats me.

[Bewitchindryad25]

No I don't think you are a cold hearted bastard at all. It took me 3 years to have my son. I had 3 miscarriages before I was ever able to carry him due to a prior injury.

I can't see how a woman can do that to her body or her baby. I smoke but when I found out I was pregnant I stopped. I was already a high risk pregnancy no way I was taking a chance with him.

It irks me to no end to see women who couldn't be a mother to a toy let alone a living breathing human being have 2 or 3 kids. But yet I see someone who can have no children and pray for them everyday never get blessed.

Personally I would have dragged her out and beaten her to a pulp. Harsh perhaps but that baby sure didn't get a chance.

I do not wish the death of a child on any mother. But in my eyes smoking while pregnant was like putting your hands around the babies neck and choking it herself.

[Tendarian]

Because I pointed out that the last thing this woman needs is money from co-workers, and I alluded that the bitch should be in jail for manslaughter... I'm a cold-hearted bastard.

As long as ya didnt say this to her face,just some other co-worker who would have the tact not to repeat it to her,i think your feelings are pretty much dead on.

[Rowi]

It seems nobody else at your work has this opinion of this woman if everyone is tryin to help? You are the only one that knew she was doing all this?

[Souzy]

Yeah your a cold hearted bastard! You bastard!!!!!!!!! Kidding of course. That lady is a total retard, that is all.

[Praefection]

I feel for this child. I admit I'm not a big fan of kids nor do I want them for myself I want to kick women who are willing to risk their kids due to smoking/drinking. When I was still in school there were several that smoked all through their pregnancy. To me it's a shallow and self serving addiction and they should NOT be having kids if they're willing to put their wants and needs over the health of an unborn child.

[AnticorRifling]

Tsa'ah I would have stood up and clapped had you said that at your work and I was there.

But on a different note who the hell are you to make someone responsible for their own actions?!!!! /sarcasm

As far as I'm concerned you're right as rain.

[Bestatte]

I know smoking increases the risk of low birth-weight, as HarmNone has pointed out. I also know that drinking increases risks of all kinds of problems in newborns. But I also wonder the same as um..Rowri I think it was. I mean, if the baby was home for two months, then the doctors obviously felt the baby was fine and none of those risks factored into her state of health when it was released to the mother's care.

Smoking and drinking increasing risks has only been part of medical advice for a short time, compared to the hundreds of years people have been smoking and drinking while pregnant. And in the generation of my mother, no one knew smoking was dangerous to infants. And a glass of wine was reported to soothe various aches and pains during pregnancy. I don't recall a single story in my lifetime from school chums whose brothers or sisters died shortly after birth. And many of their parents smoked or drank or did both.

While that's not any kind of scientific evidence, I wouldn't be so quick to blame the mother, since you have no idea why this baby died. For all you know it could've had an aneurism, or an epileptic seizure, or the father beat the kid to death and the mother just isn't talking about it. Or, maybe the doctor was at fault for not recognizing a problem and allowing the infant to be sent home in the first place.

I realize it's very possible that the mother's smoking and drinking might have contributed to the problem, or even caused it, but I wouldn't make assumptions and pass judgment on the mother based on assumptions that you have no real knowledge about.

This woman is gonna be grieving the rest of her life. I'd say that's punishment enough.

[Czeska]

I found out I was pregnant the morning of our annual halloween party a few years ago. It was the easiest thing for me to stop smoking right then, and the only alcohol I had during the pregnancy was a SIP of champagne at midnight on NYE.
The woman was an irresponsible fool, regardless of what actually killed that child. I hope that she is able to accept some responsibility for her actions, and perhaps her grieving will lead her to educate those around her.

[longshot]

Originally posted by Bestatte
I know smoking increases the risk of low birth-weight, as HarmNone has pointed out. I also know that drinking increases risks of all kinds of problems in newborns. But I also wonder ...

[lots more bullshit....]



Must you continue to verbally vomit after every one of Tsa'ah's posts?

I don't think your cold for feeling how you feel. I would be angry at anyone other than a close personal friend hanging up a banner.

By chance, was the woman who said you have to know how to Jew a Jew in Jew town?

[Soulpieced]

Would it be possible to report said person to insurance? If there are more than a few witnesses that she has in fact knowingly drank and smoked during her pregnancy. Perhaps that could negate the child insurance?

Soulpieced watches too much Law & Order, but it's a damn good idea.

[Betheny]

Blame the retard that got her pregnant.

[Myrianna]

For the two of you that were talking about smoking not having risks associated with it, Rowi, even your wife cut down on smoking, so obviously some risk was acknowledged, and Bestatte, stop playing the damn Devil's advocate on everything.

No, you're not a cold hearted bastard, anyone that would drink and smoke, especially if it was excessive (as in going out to drink while knowing she was pregnant), she deserves what she got... The child didn't, but she did.

~Myri
(and yes, I agree, Maimara, some of the blame should go to the one that knocked her up)

[Caiylania]

Anyone who doesn't anknowledge smoking at the very least is harmful to both unborn and born babies is wearing blinders of their own choosing.

When you smoke you inhale more than 4,000 chemicals –at least 200 are poisonous and 43 known to cause cancer. Here are some of the harmful substances found in cigarette smoke.

Acetone: A poisonous solvent and paint stripper
Ammonia: A poisonous gas and a powerful cleaning agent
Arsenic: A potent poison
Benzene: A poisonous toxin
Butane: A flammable chemical in lighter fluid
Cadmium: Found in car batteries
Carbon Monoxide: An extremely poisonous gas found in auto exhaust
Cyanide: The deadly ingredient in rat poison
Formaldehyde: A preservative
Methanol: Jet engine and rocket fuel
Nicotine: An active ingredient in many bug sprays
Polonium-210: A highly radioactive element
Toluene: A poisonous industrial solvent

How can anyone who is putting these into their body deny that it hurts their baby? your child gets what you get - period.

As for the baby dying two months later, ok.... lets say it wasn't from her poisoning her child for 9 months in the womb.

I can WITHOUT a doubt, tell you she was smoking at home. I mean, she didn't give a crap about smoking while pregnant, so you KNOW she was smoking at home. Now the baby is getting even MORE of the above shit in their lungs and blood.

If I haven't made my point.... ::shrug:: then go drink a barrel of that stuff. Find out how many gallon jugs it would take to fill with 9 months worth of above toxins and then empty said jugs into your lungs. Because if you don't believe it hurts you, then what would be the harm.

Ciao.

[Tsa`ah]

Well I'm glad I'm not alone in my stance.

To indirectly respond to some of the questions that were raised.

1. The woman smoked heavily during her pregnancy. I know this because she always complained of the shift being too long because she always had to break into her second pack at the 8th hour. We work 12-hour shifts.

2. I posted the babies birth weight and length. These are directly correlated to smoking and drinking.

3. The woman partied frequently during her pregnancy. This is confirmed by the woman's bragging about how many beers it took to get her drunk ... and how she constantly complained of hangovers. (No less than three times a week).

4. The child's lungs and heart were under-developed at birth (9 month term) and retained one week until the baby's heart could handle independent blood/oxygen levels. (Confirmed by hospital physician I worked with while in college)

5. The child was sent home as special care orders. She needed an oxygen tent for proper respiration.

6. The cause of death is now officially asphyxiation. The mother had a party the night the child died. At least 15 people in the home were smoking and the child was not in an oxygen tent at the time of the party.

7. Signs and banners strung and hung all over the plant were done by 5 of her friends who are no longer employed at my place of work. Everything has been removed. I believe the plant manager's comments were along the lines of "We don't need to fund her fucking after-funeral keg party". I have new respect for the old guy.

Any other dots I need to connect?

She should be in prison.

As of now, she is under the investigation of the Dept of Children Services. Doubtful she will have her other child removed from her custody.

[Caiylania]

Three cheers for your boss. I'm glad you got through or he took charge of whatever. Is she getting in any legal trouble? I can always hope :/

Heh, where do you work man? If all else fails i'm putting in an application.

She should be asphyxiated

Originally posted by Maimara
Blame the retard that got her pregnant.

blame the dumb bitch that didnt take birth control.
It is a two way street.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by The Edine
blame the dumb bitch that didnt take birth control.
It is a two way street.

Um Edine thats what this whole thread is about, the fact that she is to blame.

Obviously she is blamed, Beth simply points out that two parties were involved unless this is some immaculate conception so that snippy post isn't really required.

no maimara is a man hater
don't give her more credit than is required

[Edited on 12-28-2003 by The Edine]

[Skirmisher]

Oh, clearly.

[Soulpieced]

I'm glad she got what's coming to her Tsa'ah. She should also be investigated for the murder of her child as well as through child services.

Were her friends fired as a result of being fellow idiots, or coincidentally as a result of the fraudulent fund?

[Snapp]

This is why stupid people should be neutered.

[Tsa`ah]

The fund raising wasn't really fraudulent. It was just moronic. We have PPO coverage insurance, so unless she hasn't paid her 100 bucks for term pre-natal care and delivery, there are no attached medical bills. The lowest offered buy in tear for the optional life insurance is 10,000 for 5 bucks a head per month. It can be upped as high as 75,000 for 13 bucks a month.

So trying to raise money for a woman that isn't losing any money, or doesn't owe any money is more like asking for grief money.

Her 5 friends were fired for violating company policy. No solicitations on company property unless authorized by HR. Even if authorization is given, HR handles the solicitations.

The five twits ditched their responsibilities to use company time and materials in order to produce the banners and signs. Then continued to waste company time to hang said signs and banners.

Most of what I have been hearing is through e-mail and over the phone while checking in with my team. I've been home sick for a week, only attempting to go in on Tuesday and then for my meetings on Friday morning.

[Bobmuhthol]

Nobody pointed out that this woman needs to be shot in the head with the same arrow eight times.

You should be ashamed.

And she should be dead/in agony.

[Soulpieced]

Figures it would be something like doing the stuff on company time. Suckers.

[Weedmage Princess]

For the people who were saying there are counters to the argument that smoking and drinking while pregnant can cause all sorts of problems for the baby (even in utero) ..I'd like to see these counter arguments...because I had piles upon piles of pamphlets, leaflets, magazine articles and other things that showed all sorts of facts and stats DIRECTLY LINKING such activities to birth defects and other horrible things.

When I was pregnant, I was told to even refrain if possible from using certain household products (Softscrub, I think Mr. Clean was another..I might still have the list somewhere) because they contained certain chemicals that caused some condition (began with an H I believe..Daina you probably know what I'm talking about) that could be harmful to the fetus...so I can't imagine how bad inhaling pack after pack of cigarettes, all that tar and nicotine, or all that alcohol beer after beer...shot after shot...could not be harmful if doctors would rather you not use Softscrub on your tub once every week or so.

[Bestatte]

Just in case fingers are pointing in my direction - I'll be real clear about this:

In no post of mine did I ever even -suggest- that smoking doesn't cause harm. Smoking _CAN_ cause harm to infants. The risk of smoke causing harm is high. But it is still just that - a risk. It is not a certainty. Not all babies born to mothers who smoke will be harmed by it. Just as not all babies born to crackhead mothers will be born addicted.

When people make assumptions based on incomplete or incorrect facts, it hurts everyone involved. Even if their assumption turns out to be true.

[Soulpieced]

It is not a certainty. Not all babies born to mothers who smoke will be harmed by it. Just as not all babies born to crackhead mothers will be born addicted.

.

Actually, there was a "the truth" commercial about the *average* weight of babies from a non-smoking vs. smoking mother. There was over a 2 pound difference, and that in itself would lead to a direct correlation and not just a "risk". If you knowingly smoke a pack or more a day while pregnant, I'm sure there is something like a 99% chance *something* will be wrong with the baby. I'll look for actual medical evidence of this.

[Soulpieced]

http://www.in.gov/isdh/programs/tobacco/unborn.htm

http://www.co.mohave.az.us/WIC/SmokingandYourBaby.htm

[Bestatte]

The stats on the WIC website are interesting. One of them says:

In the developing world about 1 in every 200 pregnancies is a tubal pregnancy, in women who smoke it occurs 1 in every 100 pregnancies.

I'd like to know if they pooled the stats of women who smoke -only- from the developing world, and not from the entire world population including un-and underdevloped nations. If it's the former, then it's a fair assessment. If it's the latter, then it's totally skewed.

Another stat in the site:

Smoking less than a pack a day increases the risk of developing this condition by 25% and using more than a pack daily elevates the likelihood to 92%

If I'm reading this correctly, they're telling me that 92% of women who smoke end up having emergency c-sections. I find this incredibly difficult to believe. In my mother's generation, many women smoked during pregnancy because people just didn't realize how dangerous it was. And in my mother's generation, 92% of those smokers did -not- have emergency c-sections. I'm sorry, I just don't buy that stat at all.

Smoking is dangerous. Smoking while pregnant is even more dangerous, and it's dangerous to the fetus. There's no doubt in my mind of the truth of this. However, the lifestyle of a person who smokes while pregnant should also be considered. Plus their overall heath, any genetic disorders that could be passed down to the child, what kind of doctor's care she's getting, her -other- habits, her moods (since moods can affect fetal growth as well), if she's on any meds for things unrelated to pregnancy, if the doctor and pharmacist are aware of it, etc. etc. etc.

There are just SO many variables that can lead to a baby's death, that it is ridiculous to assume that smoking is the only possible cause.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Bestatte
There are just SO many variables that can lead to a baby's death, that it is ridiculous to assume that smoking is the only possible cause.

Like the fact that she ALSO drank alcohol. And I'm fairly certain it would be safe to say she also drank coffee. So why don't people stop concentrating on whether smoking alone led to this baby's death and look at the entire picture.

Had she not abused this baby in the womb, had it not been born underweight and, most likely, otherwise physically and/or mentally damaged as well, it seems likely that the odds of it dying would have been much lower.

As far as I'm concerned, she is guilty of criminally negligent homicide, if not actual manslaughter.

Raven

[Weedmage Princess]

I don't think anyone's saying it's the ONLY possible cause..what's being said is it's a MAIN cause.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find it absolutely disgusting that anyone would sit there and try to find flaws in proven facts, or use the lame "It's just a possibility, not a certainty" excuse to justify or excuse smoking or drinking while pregnant. It's a fact that engaging in such activities while pregnant can be very harmful to the unborn child. And as far as what anyone may or may not believe about the validity of the very real dangers of smoking while pregnant...I sincerely doubt cigarette companies would put on the side of their cigarette packs that women who are pregnant or nursing SHOULDN'T smoke..to deter them from buying their product.

If you want to smoke and drink, fine..don't get pregnant if you can't control yourself. That's just selfish. There are so many methods out there to avoid pregnancy, there's no reason to put a helpless baby who didn't ask to be brought into this world at risk because you're too much of a shithead to be an adult and think about someone else other than yourself.

*edited a bunch of typos because this is one of the very few things that truly irk me.

[Edited on 12-29-2003 by Weedmage Princess]

[Bestatte]

So Weed and Daina, I guess the part of my post where I wrote

Smoking is dangerous. Smoking while pregnant is even more dangerous, and it's dangerous to the fetus. There's no doubt in my mind of the truth of this.
just sorta flew right over your heads, huh?

If you think I'm "justifying" or "excusing" anything, then you're even less intelligent than I gave you credit for. You want to hang a woman you've never met, based on a post written by a person you only know through a text media on the internet. That's about as brilliant as believing in the Sandman just because mommy told you he exists and no one bothered to let you know he doesn't.

My point, since it hasn't quite managed to enter your brains..is that it is unfair to be judge and jury over something you don't have all the facts about. Now granted what he says about the woman might be true. But I don't recall hearing any autopsy report data that shows the baby's death was caused in any way, shape, or form, by the mother's negligence.

YES - the mother was wrong, very wrong, to smoke and drink while pregnant. She put her baby at great risk in doing so, and should be neutered so she can never breed again. But did these specific behaviors on her part actually cause the baby's death? I have no idea. Neither do any of you. It's possible, but it's also possible that the father beat the kid to death. It's also possible that the doctor fucked up during the delivery. It's also possible that she threw the kid out the window. It's possible the baby's alive and she put it up for adoption secretly. It's also possible that I'm good buddies with the Easter Bunny.

D'oh.

[Weedmage Princess]

:rolleyes:

IF YOU..Bestatte..are trying to justify smoking and drinking while pregnant by saying it's a possibility not a certainty..then yes, my post is directed at you. If you WEREN'T trying to say that, then NO the post wasn't directed at you. Since you're so keen on telling people to reread posts, how about you look over mine and note that my tirade was about...WOMEN WHO DRINK AND SMOKE WHILE PREGNANT IN GENERAL. As far as you questioning anyones intelligence, after this brilliant comment:

Originally posted by Bestatte
Another stat in the site:

Smoking less than a pack a day increases the risk of developing this condition by 25% and using more than a pack daily elevates the likelihood to 92%

If I'm reading this correctly, they're telling me that 92% of women who smoke end up having emergency c-sections. I find this incredibly difficult to believe. In my mother's generation, many women smoked during pregnancy because people just didn't realize how dangerous it was. And in my mother's generation, 92% of those smokers did -not- have emergency c-sections. I'm sorry, I just don't buy that stat at all.

..heh...you have no room to question ANYONE'S intelligence. So you'll hae to excuse me if I believe the Surgeon General and various doctors and scientists over you, She who supposedly has some sort of degree and certification in every possible field, yet...last I heard..was unemployed? :confused:

[longshot]

Originally posted by Bestatte
So Weed and Daina, I guess the part of my post where I wrote

Smoking is dangerous. Smoking while pregnant is even more dangerous, and it's dangerous to the fetus. There's no doubt in my mind of the truth of this.
just sorta flew right over your heads, huh?

If you think I'm "justifying" or "excusing" anything, then you're even less intelligent than I gave you credit for. You want to hang a woman you've never met, based on a post written by a person you only know through a text media on the internet. That's about as brilliant as believing in the Sandman just because mommy told you he exists and no one bothered to let you know he doesn't.

My point, since it hasn't quite managed to enter your brains..is that it is unfair to be judge and jury over something you don't have all the facts about. Now granted what he says about the woman might be true. But I don't recall hearing any autopsy report data that shows the baby's death was caused in any way, shape, or form, by the mother's negligence.

YES - the mother was wrong, very wrong, to smoke and drink while pregnant. She put her baby at great risk in doing so, and should be neutered so she can never breed again. But did these specific behaviors on her part actually cause the baby's death? I have no idea. Neither do any of you. It's possible, but it's also possible that the father beat the kid to death. It's also possible that the doctor fucked up during the delivery. It's also possible that she threw the kid out the window. It's possible the baby's alive and she put it up for adoption secretly. It's also possible that I'm good buddies with the Easter Bunny.

D'oh.

This is the reasoning of someone who used to suck dick for coke.

It all makes sense now!