Gemsinging and Training

[Drunken Durfin]

I have heard a lot of different theories on what the best training path is for bards when it comes to gem singing. Some have said that having too many manipulation lores causes gems to orb too quickly, thus retarding their value for resale at the gem shop. Not enough and you shatter so many that it brings down you overall return. I am curious to know if anyone has done any real testing along these lines.

The bard that I have been using for singing was 54th level with the following skills:

Harness Power......................| 171 71
Elemental Mana Control.............| 130 35
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 156 56

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 112

Trained as such he was getting an average of 64.53% increase in gem value with a shatter rate of 1.16%.

With the fixskills coming up in a few days, I would like to hear what those more experienced in gem singing have learned over the years playing with different skill sets.

[AestheticDeath]

Why did you go as high as 35 in mana share? and I assume you had some physical training but didnt include it or something?

[Danical]

Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 201 101 101
Bard...............................| 127 127

I've purified over 526 gems now in my latest batch and I haven't blown one. Stats probably play a role in purification; which and how much? I have no idea.

At any rate, this is what I've seen while testing. Orbing is a totally and completely random process. More manipulation doesn't increase the chance of orbing bur rather, allows you to sing more times in the green and therefore indirectly increases your chances of orbing the gem.

As an aside, some gems are buggy; Jinsem can tell you all about those if you're interested.

I proposed a tweak to 1004 to Mestys but I don't know if he's looked it over. The suggestion would be to change the orbing process. Orbing wouldn't happen randomly, instead, the gem would continue the process all the way to cap/mag quality. At any time you can use the verb PURIFY <gem> to attempt to orb the gem. Relevant stats, level, spellsongs known, manipulation lore, and MCs increase your chance. The higher the quality of the gem, the harder the chance to orb. There would also be in increased chance to esssplode the gem while attempting to orb it. I liken it somewhat to IMBUE a la rangers. Also, orbing would give you some exp, probably something on the par with magic item creation which is to say, negligible.

Thoughts?

[AestheticDeath]

Sounds good. I hate orbing stuff. Seems half the gems I find are orbs already anyways.

The last mules backpack of gems I purified had 125 orbs, and 150 gems I could purify. Though I didn't keep track of how many were orbs already, and how many I sung into an orb.

Though I would not be surprised if they are using orbs to limit our intake of silvers!

[Drunken Durfin]

Why did you go as high as 35 in mana share? and I assume you had some physical training but didnt include it or something?

Didn't include it because I am assuming that it has no effect on gem singing.

Physical Fitness...................| 86 19

Full stats and skills can be found here :

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=723339#post723339




At any rate, this is what I've seen while testing. Orbing is a totally and completely random process. More manipulation doesn't increase the chance of orbing bur rather, allows you to sing more times in the green and therefore indirectly increases your chances of orbing the gem.


I am glad someone has done some actual testing along this line. How much manipulation lore do you think is optimal? I was seeing a 1.16% shatter rate at 56 ranks.

[Danical]

I am glad someone has done some actual testing along this line. How much manipulation lore do you think is optimal? I was seeing a 1.16% shatter rate at 56 ranks.

It's definitely not formal research but it's my continued observation.

I'm not sure on the Manip. I DO know there are diminishing returns. Mestys has stated as such on the officials but has since fallen off.

I got 101 to say I'm one of, if not the, best purifier in the game; it's probably not worth going past 75 since 1030 benefits stop after that.

Also, 26 telep can net you 5 more AS via 1007, longer song cycle, better rage and depression affects, etc.

[AestheticDeath]

Gnimble you have any stats on the price increase after purifying?

[Danical]

I'd have to check since I'm at work but . . .

emeralds/diamonds at mag quality will be 10k
blue diamonds/ star|dragonfire emeralds go to 12k at mag quality.

sometimes bugs pop up wherein the gem caps before it reaches mag quality.

I had a huge spreadsheet of them all, but gave up since it doesn't change my purifying habits. I got til it caps or orbs, always.

EDIT: Oh, price increase, um . . . it just depends on how many natural pures I get and the spawn quality of said batch of gems.

[Drunken Durfin]

Have you done any generic tracking of what percentage increase you are getting? Appraise sack of 250 unsung gems, sing, re-appraise?

[Danical]

I really don't track that although that would be stupid easy to do in lich.

I'll update my purification scripts when I'm done working . . . I hate working on the weekends :(

[Fallen]

I know this about orb gems, certain kinds of gems are FAR more likely to be orbs than the norm.

[AestheticDeath]

Ok.. so my old purify script no longer works adequately. Was using pure v 1.71 from lich.

Anyone have a newer, better version? Or just a different one? If not I will try and make my own, but I'm not so good at it, so hoping someone can share.

[Drunken Durfin]

The version I had was frying my nerves now and again, so I hacked it a little bit. It has not let me down...yet


# Will purify the contents of your container with 1004 (purification song), while being conscious of mana and checking for orbs/rechargables; defaults to stopping at a 'safe' point, but enter 'full' as the first command line variable and it will go until the gem shatters or is fully purified.
# Can also transfer all recognized gems from containers to another container. For full usage info, start the script with the `help' command line variable (as in type `;pure help').


gemdb = [ "jade", "spherine", "egg", "thunderstone", "faenor-bloom", "star ruby", "aetherstone", "agate", "ambergris", "azurite", "beryl", "bloodjewel", "bloodstone", "bluerock", "caederine", "cordierite", "deathstone", "doomstone", "dreamstone", "eostone", "firestone", "galena", "geode", "hyacinth", "onyx", "pyrite", "peridot", "rhimar", "riftshard", "riftstone", "rosepar", "wyrdshard", "spinel", "shard", "faenor", "blazestar", "despanal", "feystone", "diamond", "emerald", "ruby", "pearl", "sapphire", "opal", "jacinth", "garnet", "moonstone", "stone", "topaz", "gem", "coral", "sunstone", "starstone", "quartz", "heliodor", "glimaerstone", "carbuncle", "turquoise", "chalcedony", "tourmaline", "obsidian", "zircon", "amethyst", "lapis lazuli", "amber" ]


loresong = ", I ask this favor of you;Show the purpose laying beneath your hue"


unless (script.vars.empty? || script.vars[1] =~ /full/i)
if (Lich.lootsack.empty? or Lich.gemsack.empty?)
unless script.vars[2]
echo("Error! You must either have your 'lootsack'/'gemsack' settings defined, or provide the container names on the command line!")
echo("Syntax: ;pure (container) (done_container) (orb_container)")
echo("If the container for orb gems is omitted, they'll be put in whatever container you provide for 'done_container'")
exit
end
end
script.vars.shift
lootsack = script.vars.shift
gemsack = script.vars.shift
orbsack = script.vars.shift
if orbsack.nil? then orbsack = gemsack.dup end
else
script.vars.shift
lootsack = Lich.lootsack.clone
gemsack = Lich.gemsack.clone
orbsack = Lich.puregemsack.clone
end

fput "look in my #{lootsack}"
contents = waitfor("In the .+ you see").gsub(/ and (?:an|a|some)/, ',')
gems = contents.scan(/\b(?:#{gemdb.join('|')})(?=,|\.)/)
result = String.new
close_when_done = false
numbershattered = 0
startnumber = gems.length
madeorb = false
tick = nil; tock = nil
time_total = 0
gems.length.times {
unless tock.nil?
time_total += tock - tick
avg_time = time_total.to_f / (startnumber - gems.length).to_f
end
tick = Time.now.to_f
if time_total.nonzero?
est_time_left = (avg_time * gems.length.to_f) / 60.00
est_min = ' (estimated time left is ' + est_time_left.truncate.to_s; est_sec = ((est_time_left % 1) * 0.60).to_s.sub(/.*\.(\d\d).*/, '\1')
else
est_min = ' (estimated time left is ??'; est_sec = '??'
end
if gems.length > 1
respond("#{gems.length} gems left" + est_min + ":" + est_sec + ').')
else
respond("#{gems.length} gem left" + est_min + ":" + est_sec + ').')
end
gem = gems.shift
if gem =~ /lapis lazuli/
gstore = "lapis lazuli"
gem = "lapis"
else
gstore = gem.dup
end
orbcheck = true ; oncemore = false
wait_until('Waiting on mana...') { mana(20) }
loresing = false
fput "take my #{gem} from my #{lootsack}"
until result =~ /what were you|cannot|must be holding|shatter/i
wait_until('Waiting on mana...') { mana(20) }
fput 'prep 1004' if mana(20)
fput "cast at my #{gem}" if mana(20)
result = waitfor('essence',"gem becomes more perfect","shatter","crack","must be holding","what were you","appearing smoother and more pure", "improves somewhat","cannot be", "Sing Roundtime",'Spell Hindrance')
if script.vars.first =~ /full/i
if result =~ /cannot/
(loresing = true) if orbcheck
break
elsif result =~ /crack/
orbcheck = false
end
else
if result =~ /more perfect|what were you|improves somewhat|crack|shatter|cannot be|must be holding|smoother and more pure in color/
nextline = get
if (nextline =~ /essence/) then madeorb = true; break end
if result =~ /smoother and more pure in color/
if oncemore
oncemore = false
break
else
oncemore = true
end
end
(loresing = true) if (result =~ /cannot be/)
(numbershattered += 1) if (result =~ /shatter/)
if result =~ /crack|somewhat|What were|cannot|must be holding/ then break end
end
end
sleep 3
end
if loresing
wait_until('Waiting on mana...') { mana(20) }
fput("loresing " + gstore + loresong) if mana(20)
result = waitfor("pulse", "pulses", "draw power", "gem of some kind")
if result =~ /pulse/
echo("*** THIS GEM IS MAGE RECHARGABLE ***")
exit
end
waitrt?
fput "put my #{gem} in my #{orbsack}"
elsif madeorb
madeorb = false
fput "put my #{gem} in my #{orbsack}"
sleep 2.5
else
fput("put my #{gem} in my #{gemsack}") unless (result =~ /shatter/)
sleep 2.5
wait_until('Waiting on mana...') { mana(20) }
end
unless result =~ /shatter/
if waitfor('closed!', 'You put', 'what\?', 'could not find') =~ /closed!/
fput "open my #{gemsack}"
fput "put my #{gem} in my #{gemsack}"
close_when_done = true
end
end
result = String.new
tock = Time.now.to_f
}

respond ""
if startnumber == 0
echo("Did not recognize any gems in your container")
else
echo("Purified #{startnumber - numbershattered} #{if (startnumber - numbershattered) == 1 then 'gem' else 'gems' end}; #{numbershattered} #{if numbershattered == 1 then 'gem was' else 'gems were' end} shattered (sung to #{startnumber} total)")
end

[AestheticDeath]

Yours is for Lich? will it work in wizFE?



Doing it by hand atm, and crap this sucks... how am I going to separate the orbs from the normal gems without loresinging everyone?

[Drunken Durfin]

It is Lich, no idea about WizFE though.

[AestheticDeath]

I think this current training is a curse. Just like Gnimbles... and now I can't separate my orbs properly.

I basically max every gem, which gives the same message as an orb would.

"you sense that it cannot be purified any further."

So now I have to loresing every gem. Cause my script not catching it right.

How are you doing with the new bard? You maxing everything as well?

max lore? 100 + bard ranks?

[Durgrimst]

Just sell the Bard to me....

Do it AD

[AestheticDeath]

With this training I have yet to get any but two messages.

"its crystalline structure reforming as the gem becomes more perfect."

"you sense that it cannot be purified any further"

having been orbing things any more then I did with younger bards either...

[Drunken Durfin]

I am waiting for the fixskills to set up the new bard, but it is going to be total slave. At his current training, 92, will be 188 bard song ranks and 94 ranks of Manipulation. Going to rely on artisan skills and the AG to get him to cap.


This orb check script was written for SF, should work in Wiz. Does one gem type at a time.

Useage:
.orbcheck sapphire pouch cloak satchel
Takes sapphires from pouch, sings, orbs go into cloak and regual gems go into satchel.


Echo Useage:
Echo .orbcheck [gem name] [check container] [orb container] [gem container]
Echo
Echo Nod to begin.

WAITFOR you nod

Main:
put get %1 from my %2
put loresing %1 I ask this favor of you;Show the purpose laying beneath your hue
MATCH Orb feel it trying to draw power from you
MATCH Gem is as a gem of some kind
MATCH Rechargeable It pulses strongly
MATCH Done Get what
MATCH Main wait
MATCHWAIT

Orb:
put put %1 in my %3
MATCH Orb wait
MATCH Main you put
MATCHWAIT

Gem:
put put %1 in my %4
MATCH Gem wait
MATCH Main you put
MATCHWAIT

Rechargeable:
Echo ==================
Echo !Mage Rechargeable!
Echo ==================
Exit

Done:
Echo ==================
Echo Out of %1
Echo ==================

[AestheticDeath]

oh just singing every gem? yeah was doing that during purifying justnow..

but upon posting I was only getting those two messages, I changed the script

and it separates good right now... just hope I never get another message


and I think 188 is too much bard... 100 bard is probably the cap on songs is my guess. youd do just as well with some elemental in there, or more MANA

[AestheticDeath]

Unless this batch of gems is whacked, I am not orbing gems through the songs as much with this 101 manip and 127 bard ranks, as I was with a 63 bard with 5 manip ranks, and 40 bard songs. The 63 was orbing quite a few. Wish I had counted the actual rates when I sang with him.

[Drunken Durfin]

and I think 188 is too much bard... 100 bard is probably the cap on songs is my guess. youd do just as well with some elemental in there, or more MANA

What is your reasoning behind that, how could more bard songs be bad? Also, when you say "some elemental in there" are you talking about elemental spell lists? I don't see how knowledge of elemental spells would have any effect on gem singing.

[Xaerve]

Yea, I'm not following you either AD.

Elemental spells have no effect on it, and as far as I have been able to tell with my research, the more bard songs = the better; so I'm not sure where you're getting the 100 songs is the end of it logic either.

[AestheticDeath]

They don't have an effect. Never said they did. I am saying you are wasting spell ranks.

At 101 manip and 127 bard, I have had ZERO, let me repeat that, ZERO problems capping a gem out, and have yet to blow one. And I have been orbing less gems through purifying.

Would recommend getting elemental for things other than gems. 405, 407/408? Duel purpose the guy. Max his mana so you don't have to wrack or something.
Get some combat stuff so you can hunt with someone.. Give your warrior extra AS.

I am thinking the 101/127 is a bit overkill already.

I was in a hurry so I didn't use my fixskill to full effect and test things out. I would say get 100 spell ranks on yer guy, get his manip lore maxed if you want. Or keep it at 50 ranks or something. Take things up slower. At level 91 with 100 spell ranks and 50+ lore I would imagine you do things about as well as a capped guy like Gnimble.

If that lower amount caps gems and doesn't shatter them, more is not better, more is waste.

[Danical]

^^^

In fact, I'm probably going to drop my 101 manip down to 75 and put 26 in telep.

[AestheticDeath]

Let us know if 1030 changes when you lower manip lore.

[Drunken Durfin]

I understand if you want to do more than just sing to gems you would want to split some stuff up, but as I said initially this is going to be a total slave bard. The only way I will be wasting spell ranks is if I don't put them in bard songs, he is not going to use the TPs anywhere else anyway.

Once I do the retrain we can all start posting numbers and comparing them, then we will KNOW what the point of diminishing returns is. I am in an excellent position to push the max for bard songs and manipulation so as to provide better numbers for comparison to those who actually want a viable bard that can hunt as well as sing.

[Danical]

Let us know if 1030 changes when you lower manip lore.

1030 maxes out at 75 manip.

I did the research on it years and years ago.

[AestheticDeath]

gotcha, thanks

[AestheticDeath]

Finally busted a gem, but this was already purified by another lower level bard too, so that may have hampered it some.


Your focused voice causes the violet sapphire to shatter into thousands of fragments!
... 10 points of damage!
Brushing blow to your right hand.
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[AestheticDeath]

[Script]>You sing a melody, directing the sound of your voice at a firestone.
As the gem vibrates slightly in your hand, you sense that your song is having no effect on its purity.

Can you not purify firestones?

[Drunken Durfin]

Well, even with maxing out his bardsongs he had a crapload of Physical TPs left over, so I went ahead and dropped some into Armor, Shield and OHE and swapped out some songs for 30 minor elemental.

He has 158 songs now, so I am going to start singing and tracking the percentages. Numbers to follow in a few days.

[AestheticDeath]

Any else notice an increase in shattered gems lately?

[Drunken Durfin]

Sung to over 3000 gems since fixskills, not a single shatter.

[AestheticDeath]

What types of gems? I just sat down and somehow shattered several gems, glimaerstones and a pearl.

edit: though I was singing other bard songs at the time as well. Does that hurt purifying? Figured the mana drain was the reason Shaeluns script did stop singing..

[Zarli]

as I've said, I'm not the best bard and I haven't really done a lot of homework with her even though she's in her 35th level or something.. but with loresongs, I was told you should sing for value, purpose, magic, special ability.. in order..I see people sing without keywords and such so I'm thinking you dont need them as a higher level bard. Is there anything else I should know about loresinging?

And.. this probably isn't the right thread for this.. sorry.

[AestheticDeath]

Never tried loresinging without keywords, since I dont like being creative.


Sung to over 3000 gems since fixskills, not a single shatter.

Are you singing to cheap gems at all? I seem to bust cheap gems easiest.
hyacinth, smoky topaz, faenor-bloom and spiderweb turquoise busted in the last 2-3 hours.