Ever been turned down for an alteration (idea)?

[thefarmer]

So I know a lot of you don't follow the officials much, but there's been an on-going thread about alterations (whether they're consistent, why things don't get done etc etc etc).

Here's a post by Belnia's player that led to a discussion about the alteration rules specifically, or lack thereof.


This whole trouble could really be largely avoided if we, the playerbase, KNEW what the guidelines were.

Why are we kept in the dark, until we're told "no" by a merchant character? It really seems a set up for frustration. If we knew beforehand, a lot of people might grumble, but at least they could plan accordingly.


You kick Jenovadeath!
>
Jenovadeath seems a bit less imposing.


Here's Andraste's response:


The thing is, they're just guidelines, not rules. It allows for some flexibility, which also allows us to consider to player input when creating shops and items for events -- such as the ability to create simple clothing vests or utility vests. Consider also that GMs don't create items in a vacuum -- the QC GMs have to check them out and ensure they fit within the guidelines.

It you want a hard and fast rule, by which every similar item must have exact set stats, then you're going to probably be disappointed.

We can make capes or short cloaks that carry a medium amount, and then save the large or VLA amount for a full-length cloak. Then again, maybe a cloak might just be ceremonial or decorative without pockets, and saved for special occasions. A pouch is smaller than a sack, which is smaller than a knapsack, which is sometimes smaller than a backpack. But then, a sack can be large or it can be small. A pouch can hold a few gems or several bundles of herbs and potions.

That's precisely why, when GMs are trained to merchant, they're supposed to rely upon their training AND common sense and good judgment.

Again, if the preference is for us to throw out the ability to be flexible, you can certainly ask the PTB, via feedback, to do so. For me, though, that certainly is a step backwards, to the days here when both heavy backpacks and spidersilk cloaks weighed 20 lbs.

--A.

Thoughts?

[That Jay]

"That's precisely why, when GMs are trained to merchant, they're supposed to rely upon their training AND common sense and good judgment."

One of three is not bad.

[Tolwynn]

I wish they could be more flexible at times, if anything. It really makes me wonder if some of them have an axe to grind, whether against me or in general, for some of the ideas I've had refused.

I'll spare the decidedly long list I could post, but one of the more annoying ones as of late involved a Sadie scroll.

I put a scroll in asking to have lightning flares added to a suit of armor.

I wait the time, and finally get a response back that the work could not be completed, as lightning flares are not available. Electric flares, however, are.

So, yeah... flexible and common sense, I'll go with that.

[AnticorRifling]

She dodged the question.

Give us the guidelines so we have an idea of what to prepare for with the understanding that those guidelines do, in fact, have some flexability in them.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Isn't there an ALTER verb?

[Tolwynn]

There certainly is an alter verb, but even that's not clearcut in any number of situations. One of the sections mentions rare materials not being used, or needing to be provided, say, but merchants seem to be increasingly tending towards applying this rule to even uncommon materials - like the one requesting imflass to be provided that was mentioned in another recent thread.

If anything, rather than a master list of what cannot be done, maybe they could give merchants a go-to guide of things that actually can be allowed, at their discretion. That would be a much better solution, IMHO.

[Fallen]

I was recently turned down twice for an alteration, but that was due to the merchant's race, i'm afraid.

[Latrinsorm]

All I know is I got turned down for dark-rimmed innocent blue eyes or something along those lines and I see 20 whores a day walking around with sultry seductive enticing vulvish eyes.

Also, are all GMs trained to piss and moan whenever they're called into the slightest question now? First the empath guy and now Andraste, neither getting within mortar distance of the point.

[Some Rogue]

I was recently turned down twice for an alteration, but that was due to the merchant's race, i'm afraid.

No one likes those dirty Dhe'nar....

[Fallen]

No, no they don't.

[NocturnalRob]

I was recently turned down twice for an alteration, but that was due to the merchant's race, i'm afraid.

are you genetically predisposed to finding chicken delicious?

[CrystalTears]

I was recently turned down twice for an alteration, but that was due to the merchant's race, i'm afraid.
I was once turned down by a merchant to make my bodice a slinky dark leather bodice in order to match my skirt. He said he's a dwarf and doesn't do sexy stuff for girls. Instead he made this...

a sleek dark leather bodice
Made with an almost shiny look, this bodice is low cut and form fitting around the waist. Small silver cat paws seem to walk thier way up the seams and down each of the bloused sleeves to twin clasps on the cuffs in the forms of tiny lockpicks. Clasped in the front is a solitary violet scarab which holds the bodice together at the chest, the small delicate glyph-like lines gleaming in each ray of light.
...and I don't see what difference it makes, all to deny me the word "slinky".

[Stanley Burrell]

are you genetically predisposed to finding chicken delicious?

Wonder if "Sharpton" the Faendryl's been rolled up yet.

[Allereli]

I have a cauldron with "pot" as the noun. I was turned down when i tried to make a chamber pot.

[Hips]

Yesterday Sertonius refused to make a pinworn shirt into a corset. So I went and found a pinworn bodice and that was fine.

So stupid.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by NocturnalRob
are you genetically predisposed to finding chicken delicious?

He's more of a juice guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob71_HDUplk&feature=related

[NocturnalRob]

He's more of a juice guy.


What the fuck is juice?! I want some grape drink, baby! Mmm...it's purple.

[urmom]

Again, if the preference is for us to throw out the ability to be flexible, you can certainly ask the PTB, via feedback, to do so.


What a stupid bitch.

[Tisket]

I tried to get my kitten altered so he was "flatulent". Didn't go over so well with the alterer. He was all like "what?! You want a FARTING cat???". Then he skipped my turn. Some people have no sense of humor.

[Martaigne]

I got denied a set of "calf-length trousers" once. The GM made me use "cropped trousers" instead. She said it was because "calf-length" varies between races. So I showed her my off-the-shelf knee-high boots. Still no go.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I got denied a set of "calf-length trousers" once. The GM made me use "cropped trousers" instead. She said it was because "calf-length" varies between races. So I showed her my off-the-shelf knee-high boots. Still no go.

You can buy calf-length pants off the shelf at some town merchants.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

They do have a point though. If you're going to go with a length description, name the race.

"The sleeves have been cut short, as to rest on an average human's forearm."

No idea if that's with policy or not, but it's what I'd do.

[Tisket]

That's lame. I would just assume that the article of clothing had been specially tailored for the person wearing it. All races do have calves, no?

[CrystalTears]

They do have a point though. If you're going to go with a length description, name the race.
They're picking and choosing how to apply that rule.

The number of floor length gowns, and snug fitting items there are that don't mention a race or figure because nothing is tailored for it to fit only one person. The only time I've seen something like what they mention is when they alter the item to only be wearable by that specific race. Other than that, everything else is fair game.

We reached a point that we accept that items magically scale to your size upon possession, because there's no way in hell that thigh-high boots on a giant are going to look perfect on a halfling unless we suspend that illusion.

They may as well give up that logic because it doesn't work in GS.

[Sylvan Dreams]

They do have a point though. If you're going to go with a length description, name the race.

"The sleeves have been cut short, as to rest on an average human's forearm."

No idea if that's with policy or not, but it's what I'd do.

Probably wouldn't fly. I can see the GM argument now: How can you tell just by looking at an item that it's an average human and not an average elf or a small giant? Or maybe it would reach the wrist of an average dwarf?

[ViridianAsp]

I'm kind of pissed off more about my Erithian's katana, it didn't bother me so much that I couldn't have japanese words...whatever.

But the merchant was a dwarf, okay, wouldn't let me have a nathala agate, when on the boards they said due to the rarity it would be acceptable to have them put in.

dwarf says, I don't have none of those fancy gems.....

HELLO, I'm sorry but aren't dwarves generally horders of gems? I mean come on, seriously?

Then a few weeks before I was turned down for an under-robe, under-tunic, under-gown which is in documentation, and I saw an under-gown and under-robe on merchants. so, I'm kind of pissed lately, how they seem to say no on everything.

[Celephais]

They do have a point though. If you're going to go with a length description, name the race.

"The sleeves have been cut short, as to rest on an average human's forearm."

No idea if that's with policy or not, but it's what I'd do.
This makes no sense within the current system, otherwise you would have to size every single item in game to the race.

I think it's simple enough to say "calf-length" and you can see that proportionate to the waist of the article of clothing, the length would only reach the calf.

The game is full of inconsistencies with item size, the fact that a halfling can take off a pair of trousers, hand them to a giantman and they can step into them is distrubing on many levels.

I bet no one would complain if an alterer said "okay, if I make this calf-length, they're going to become 'no-trade'", what would be even better, would be if they created items that have the "altered" look/show when worn, and are just the noun when removed/worn by anyone else. Then they could make alters that make sense/flow nicely... use things like "his/her" in the description.

[fallenSaint]

Yea its a on-going bitch about GM's all having a different set of ideas and rules when it comes to alterations. Ive found the tactic of just proposing the idea to each new merchant I see and most of the time it eventually gets processed in the mix.

My favorite was the asshat who told me silk gauze wasn't a valid material on an item and my winning response was, "I didn't think of it, your auto generator dumps it on most all Dark Elves at creation."

[Raffles]

My favorite was the asshat who told me silk gauze wasn't a valid material on an item and my winning response was, "I didn't think of it, your auto generator dumps it on most all Dark Elves at creation."

:rofl:

[diethx]

I've been pretty lucky I guess when trying to make alters, content-wise. However I am getting a little tired of the long word limits changing. During Winterfest, I was told the rule for long descriptions was now 12-15 words. So I changed all my designs to fit properly. Now at a merchant last week, i'm hearing that 12-13 words is the limit. So what, now I need to completely redo all of my long descriptions again? This is bullshit, especially when the word "a" or "the" is worth just as much in length as the word "variegated" or "turquoise". I'm sorry, but that's fucking ridiculous.

[Allereli]

I've been pretty lucky I guess when trying to make alters, content-wise. However I am getting a little tired of the long word limits changing. During Winterfest, I was told the rule for long descriptions was now 12-15 words. So I changed all my designs to fit properly. Now at a merchant last week, i'm hearing that 12-13 words is the limit. So what, now I need to completely redo all of my long descriptions again? This is bullshit, especially when the word "a" or "the" is worth just as much in length as the word "variegated" or "turquoise". I'm sorry, but that's fucking ridiculous.

that breastplate was what, 18 words?

[diethx]

that breastplate was what, 18 words?

What breastplate?

[Elvenlady]

My favorite was the asshat who told me silk gauze wasn't a valid material on an item and my winning response was, "I didn't think of it, your auto generator dumps it on most all Dark Elves at creation."

Ah, but then you get the stock Andraste response of "just because it's happened in the past doesn't mean we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes". Even when they've designed stuff to sell of the shelf several years in a row at EG but when you ask to have something altered with the same description it's "oops that was a mistake, no can do".

If the item in question appears again at this year's festival ....

[Allereli]

What breastplate?


a form-fitting raven black breastplate forged to follow a feminine form and studded with red wild rose-shaped rubies

THAT breastplate

[Sylvan Dreams]

I'm kind of pissed off more about my Erithian's katana, it didn't bother me so much that I couldn't have japanese words...whatever.

But the merchant was a dwarf, okay, wouldn't let me have a nathala agate, when on the boards they said due to the rarity it would be acceptable to have them put in.

dwarf says, I don't have none of those fancy gems.....

HELLO, I'm sorry but aren't dwarves generally horders of gems? I mean come on, seriously?

Then a few weeks before I was turned down for an under-robe, under-tunic, under-gown which is in documentation, and I saw an under-gown and under-robe on merchants. so, I'm kind of pissed lately, how they seem to say no on everything.


Anytime you are not 100% certain that an alteration will be done, you should come in with links to back up your cause. Even if it's only to Simu docs - I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every GM will know what's buried in there.

[diethx]

THAT breastplate

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

[ViridianAsp]

Anytime you are not 100% certain that an alteration will be done, you should come in with links to back up your cause. Even if it's only to Simu docs - I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every GM will know what's buried in there.

While I agree, I told her that I had seen it. I was still denied, go figure.

[SolitareConfinement]

i once asked for a gore saturated loot bag i was told by the merchant that she was fresh out of gore...so i had to go with typical bloodstains

reason i am wearing mostly bloodied items? v'tull follower

[AnticorRifling]

Just because you're V'tullian doesn't mean you can't wash your shit.

[SolitareConfinement]

Just because you're V'tullian doesn't mean you can't wash your shit.




:rofl: indeed


however hes also a dwarf. personally i picture a dwarf kinda dirty and grungy as it is

[AnticorRifling]

I had a bunch of V'tullian alters on my war mage. I think I got turned down on one of them because I didn't have the metal to add to the alter, other than that I had no problems when I was fortunate enough to get work.

If I ever play again the first thing I need to do is get my armor fixed, the first sentence of the alter is very, very meh.

And since you brought it up here's a few items that are on the mage (I prefered getting the actual symbol to an alter that said a V'tull symbol, or symbol of V'tull....although my boots say that):

You are wearing a crimson-swirled black leather mask with a gleaming onyx scimitar set upon the center of the forehead, which conceals your face.

a shadowy black leather pack clasped with a miniature crimson-edged golvern scimitar

a shadowy black hip-satchel clasped with a small golvern scimitar on a rune-etched field of red

a twisted signet ring inset with a miniature onyx scimitar on a field of crimson - holds 1 item, opens/closes

[Pyper]

The other day, I tried to get Storven to turn my full leather into a jacket. No go. I pointed out that there were at least ten jackets in citizen shops that are full leather armor. He was unmoved. So I asked him, what are my noun options for full leather? He said "leathers" and "hunts."

Really? I mean, really? I mean, my character came into the lands dressed in a full leather doublet, for gods' sakes, and you're telling me the only noun options are leather and hunts? Not to mention I've seen full leather coats, gipons, corselets, etc.

I finally convinced him to make it a jerkin. Sigh.

[arlia]

I have a cape with a long unicorn description on it and was turned down when I tried to make my robe that way. I tried that because my robe holds more than my cape.

[Shari]

The other day, I tried to get Storven to turn my full leather into a jacket. No go. I pointed out that there were at least ten jackets in citizen shops that are full leather armor. He was unmoved. So I asked him, what are my noun options for full leather? He said "leathers" and "hunts."

Really? I mean, really? I mean, my character came into the lands dressed in a full leather doublet, for gods' sakes, and you're telling me the only noun options are leather and hunts? Not to mention I've seen full leather coats, gipons, corselets, etc.

I finally convinced him to make it a jerkin. Sigh.


I understand your frustration with this. But most merchants will not convert the noun of an item regardless of whether or not other items exist in the game, worn in the same spot. I'd say if you're set on having "jacket" armor, buy one from the shop, have it enchanted to what you need, and get it altered to your liking.

Its the same thing with trying to turn a pinworn bodice into a pinworn shirt. Sure pinworn shirts exist out there, but they wont change the noun.

Hope that helps.