At hearing, Big Oil says its profits aren't extreme

[RichardCranium]

WASHINGTON — Top executives of the five biggest American oil companies say they know consumers are feeling the pain of high gasoline prices. But at a congressional hearing, they deflected any blame, and they argued that their profits — $123 billion last year — were in line with other industries.
Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., noting the hearing was being held on April Fool's Day, said, "The biggest joke of all is being played on American families by Big Oil."

Lawmakers were looking for answers to the soaring fuel costs a day after the Energy Department said the national average price of gasoline reached a record $3.29 a gallon and global oil prices remained above $100 a barrel although supplies of both gasoline and oil seemed to be adequate.

"I heard what you are hearing," John Hofmeister, president of Shell Oil (RDSA), told Markey, adding in prepared testimony that he knows that "Americans are worried about the rising price of energy.... These cost increases are hitting consumers hard, particularly the poor and those on fixed incomes."

But neither Hofmeister nor executives from ExxonMobil (XOM), BP America (BP), Chevron (CVX) and ConocoPhillips (COP) said their companies should be blamed and they rejected the notion that their profits are extreme.

"Our earnings, though high in absolute terms, need to be viewed in the context of the scale and cyclical, long-term nature of our industry as well as the huge investment requirements," said J.S. Simon, ExxonMobil's senior vice president. Last year the oil and gas industry earned 8.3 cents per dollar of sales, only a little higher than the Dow Jones industrial average for major industries, he argued in prepared testimony.

Executives from the largest U.S oil companies have been frequent targets of lawmakers, frustrated at not being able to do much to counter soaring oil and gasoline costs.

In November, 2005, Hofmeister and the top executives of the same companies represented Tuesday, sat in a Senate hearing room tried to explained high prices and their huge profits.

The prices are of concern, Hofmeister said at the time, adding a note of optimism: "Our industry is extremely cyclical and what goes up almost always comes down," he told the skeptical senators on a day when oil cost $60 a barrel.

About six months later, when the cost of the same barrel reached $75, the executives were grilled again on Capitol Hill on their spending and investment priorities.

Recently oil prices reached a peak of $111 a barrel. While declining a bit in recent days, the price remains above $100 and there's talk of $4 a gallon gasoline in the coming months.

Markey challenged the executives to pledge to invest 10% of their profits to develop renewable energy and give up $18 billion in tax breaks over 10 years so money could be funneled to support other energy and conservation.

The executives said the companies already are spending billions of dollars — more than $3.5 billion over the last five years — on renewable fuels such as wind energy and biodiesel, but rejected any tax increases.

"Imposing punitive taxes on American energy companies, which already pay record taxes, will discourage the sustained investment needed to continue safeguarding U.S. energy security," Simon insisted.

"These companies are defending billions of federal subsidies ... while reaping over a hundred billion dollars in profits in just the last year alone," complained Markey, chairman of the Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming.

The House last year and again on Feb. 27 approved legislation that would have ended the tax breaks for the oil giants, while using the revenue to support wind, solar and other renewable fuels and incentives for energy conservation. The measure has not passed the Senate.

The oil industry has argued on Capitol Hill and at the White House that the tax breaks are needed to assure continued investment in exploration, production and refinery expansions. President Bush has promised to veto any such bill, saying the oil companies should not be singled out.

The threat of nationwide $4-a-gallon gasoline, perhaps this summer, and $100-a-barrel oil is producing strong political reverberations, even as lawmakers acknowledged there is little that Congress can do to bring prices down.

On Monday, Rep. Neil Abercrombie, D-Hawaii, said the president should release oil from the government's emergency reserve to put more supplies on the market, saying, "We are quite clearly in the midst of an energy emergency." He noted the bankruptcy of Aloha Airlines, blamed in part on high jet-fuel costs.

The White House has repeatedly rejected use of the oil in the federal Strategic Petroleum Reserve to influence prices.




Edited to add the link. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2008-04-01-oil-hearing_N.htm)

[Lysander]

In theory, the oil companies does not really control the price of oil. Thats up to traders and speculators on Wall Street.

[RichardCranium]

What the fuck do you mean "in theory"? Either they do are they don't. Theory doesn't have anything to do with what you said.

[Parkbandit]

I think the next industry we need to parade in front of Congress is farmers - Have you seen the price of milk, meat and eggs? A gallon of milk costs MORE than a gallon of gas! WTF!

:rofl: and people wonder why Congress has a what.. 12% approval rating.

[Stanley Burrell]

Someone needs to globalize their crude production, for the sheer sake of unbalancing the equation. That way I can laugh.

[Some Rogue]

I think the next industry we need to parade in front of Congress is farmers - Have you seen the price of milk, meat and eggs? A gallon of milk costs MORE than a gallon of gas! WTF!

:rofl: and people wonder why Congress has a what.. 12% approval rating.

Do you know why? Food shortage + higher fuel costs + the oil industry using corn(which is normally used to feed livestock) for ethanol = higher prices.

[Daniel]

Do you know why?

Of course not. This is Parkbandit you're talking about.

[Clove]

In theory, the oil companies does not really control the price of oil. Thats up to traders and speculators on Wall Street.OPEC

[Clove]

I think the next industry we need to parade in front of Congress is farmers - Have you seen the price of milk, meat and eggs? A gallon of milk costs MORE than a gallon of gas! WTF!Heh. Good thing you don't drink 13 gallons of milk a week.

[Parkbandit]

Do you know why? Food shortage + higher fuel costs + the oil industry using corn(which is normally used to feed livestock) for ethanol = higher prices.

Obviously I should have used Italics. My bad, I thought only the dumb people wouldn't get my sarcasm.. ala Daniel.

[Parkbandit]

Of course not. This is Parkbandit you're talking about.

HAHAHAAHAAa.. holy shit, I really didn't even see this when I made my response to Nekk.

[Gan]

I've always understood that its the speculators that have a huge impact on the market price of retail gasoline.

I also understand that the refineries and local distributors also have a say in how prices are distributed.

OPEC doesnt necessarily wreak havoc by setting the price for crude (directly) as much as they control pricing through supply/demand and production availability of whats exported.

I have questions about how the prices are actually affected but I also know better than to expect any concrete answers coming out of the daily circus show of Congress. :-/

[Blud]

But at a congressional hearing, they deflected any blame, and they argued that their profits — $123 billion last year — were in line with other industries.

Markey challenged the executives to pledge to invest 10% of their profits to develop renewable energy and give up $18 billion in tax breaks over 10 years so money could be funneled to support other energy and conservation.

The executives said the companies already are spending billions of dollars — more than $3.5 billion over the last five years — on renewable fuels such as wind energy and biodiesel, but rejected any tax increases.

Yeah, because God knows the oil industry was broke 10 years ago when the price of gas was only $1.00 per gallon. I sure am glad they are continuing to receive tax breaks to cover their losses from the $3.5B they invested over the last five years out of the average of $123B profit for each of those 5 years.

Hmm...

$123B * 5 = $615B made over the last five years.

$3.5B / 5 = $700M (on average) invested each year for the last five years.

Fuck...I don't know how they stay in business. We should be paying $6.00 per gallon so that we don't fuck up our economy by allowing Big Oil companies to lose money. How very fucking un-American of us to complain so...

[Clove]

Yeah, because God knows the oil industry was broke 10 years ago when the price of gas was only $1.00 per gallon. I sure am glad they are continuing to receive tax breaks to cover their losses from the $3.5B they invested over the last five years out of the average of $123B profit for each of those 5 years.

Hmm...

$123B * 5 = $615B made over the last five years.

$3.5B / 5 = $700M (on average) invested each year for the last five years.

Fuck...I don't know how they stay in business. We should be paying $6.00 per gallon so that we don't fuck up our economy by allowing Big Oil companies to lose money. How very fucking un-American of us to complain so...
Well except they're being asked to spend 12.3 billion a year in research and give up 18 billion in tax breaks. Hmmm, over 20% cut into profit. I'm guessing Blud doesn't have any retirement investments in oil. I'm also guessing this suggestion isn't going to fly very well with their stockholders.

[Parkbandit]

Didn't the Dems run on the old "We'll bring prices of gas down" platform in 2006? What happened to their promise?

Maybe we have the wrong people in front of Congress. Maybe we should put a big, huge mirror in those seats instead?

[Daniel]

HAHAHAAHAAa.. holy shit, I really didn't even see this when I made my response to Nekk.

Really? That's funny, because you somehow still managed to reference me into your response to Nekk. It would lead one to believe that you did see it, considering how I've only made one post in this thread.

Senility must be rough.

[Daniel]

Well except they're being asked to spend 12.3 billion a year in research and give up 18 billion in tax breaks. Hmmm, over 20% cut into profit. I'm guessing Blud doesn't have any retirement investments in oil. I'm also guessing this suggestion isn't going to fly very well with their stockholders.

Probably depends on how much those same stockholders are getting ass raped at the pump.

[Keller]

Probably depends on how much those same stockholders are getting ass raped at the pump.

Wrong.

[Warriorbird]

Comparing Exxon's profits to GM's losses is an amusing game.

[Parkbandit]

Really? That's funny, because you somehow still managed to reference me into your response to Nekk. It would lead one to believe that you did see it, considering how I've only made one post in this thread.

Senility must be rough.

I read threads from the beginning and if I find a post worth responding to, I respond to it at the time I read it. Notice how Nekk's response to my post was BEFORE your stupid response.

I wouldn't know about senility.. but being plain stupid must be rough.. huh.

[Keller]

but being plain stupid must be rough.. huh.

News at 11, this just in, ParkTroll calls someone stupid!

Tune in after the game to hear whether he included a :rofl: before he lambasted yet another forum poster with his signature insult!

[Gan]

Comparing Exxon's profits to GM's losses is an amusing game.

/Agreed.

I'm wondering when this will push an auto manufacturer over the edge to shift heavy amounts of investment in alternative fuels rather than the 'token' investment thats currently underway.

A domestic auto manufacturer that can come up with an economical mass produced fuel alternative vehicle would have the brass ring. The only gamble would be the sustainability of fuel costs to levels we're currently at and what would happen if the shift is made right before an unexpected drop in prices.

I suppose if the Iraq war is a significant impactor on the speculator's opinion of stability in the region then the auto manufacturers would lobby heavily for current conditions to remain status quo providing they take on such a shift in development/production.

[Soulpieced]

Exxon's profit margin is 11.23%, what's the big deal? That's probably pretty average across most markets.

[Gan]

Exxon's profit margin is 11.23%, what's the big deal? That's probably pretty average across most markets.

Because its not popular to focus attention on consumption and related habits. Its more popular (populist) to focus on those perceived as raking in the big bucks (big business) off the back of the working man. ;)

Its a political thing. Thought you knew.

[Keller]

I'm wondering when this will push an auto manufacturer over the edge to shift heavy amounts of investment in alternative fuels rather than the 'token' investment thats currently underway.


The two major investments I plan to make early in my career are in alternative energy and desalination VC funds. Someone is going to have a golden ticket, and I'm throwing my hat in the ring.

[Stanley Burrell]

You'd figure with every country burning our colors now more than ever that one of these anti-American Devils advocates would globalize their crude as a stinging slap. Foreign C.E.O.s, at both the chief executive and oil executive levels could gather sympathy from local riggers in about negative three seconds from now.

All I see, economics + geopolitically are a bunch of hypocritical little doppelgangers, big doppelgangers, medium doppelgangers, supersized doppelgangers...



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Spiderdoppelganger.gif

And this guy.

[Daniel]

I read threads from the beginning and if I find a post worth responding to, I respond to it at the time I read it. Notice how Nekk's response to my post was BEFORE your stupid response.

I wouldn't know about senility.. but being plain stupid must be rough.. huh.

Can you read? Serious question.

[Clove]

The two major investments I plan to make early in my career are in alternative energy and desalination VC funds. Someone is going to have a golden ticket, and I'm throwing my hat in the ring.And when you start realizing huge returns on hydrogen, solar, wind, geothermal and hydro-power, I'm sure we'll all be bitterly complaining about how you're profiting too much too.

[Blud]

Well except they're being asked to spend 12.3 billion a year in research and give up 18 billion in tax breaks. Hmmm, over 20% cut into profit. I'm guessing Blud doesn't have any retirement investments in oil. I'm also guessing this suggestion isn't going to fly very well with their stockholders.

What I'm saying is that the price of crude oil has risen consistently over the last ten years for no other forseeable reason than greed. If you read the original article, you would have seen that there is plenty of supply to meet the demand, so it's not a supply vs. demand problem. The gas companies can still make huge profits, keep their tax breaks, and probably talk the government into subsidizing a large part of their R&D into alternative fuel sources much easier at $2.00 to $2.50 per gallon than they can at $4.00 per gallon.

I know it's a business, and they have investors they need to keep happy. I saw an interview with the CEO of Exxon-Mobile about two years ago on the Today Show, and he came right out and said it. "The reason gas prices are so high is because we have to keep our investors happy. It is a business." I actually appreciate his candor, but come on. There comes a time when it becomes hard to justify a nearly 400% increase in the cost of your product just because you KNOW nobody can do anything about it.

[Clove]

What I'm saying is that the price of crude oil has risen consistently over the last ten years for no other forseeable reason than greed.You're amazing and will no doubt be some econ. professor's nightmare.

1) OPEC controls 40% of the oil production in the world and the cartel sets quotas for its member countries in effect significantly controlling world supply
2) Inflation increases cost of EVERYTHING the price of milk per gallon (for example) is expected to reach double its average price from 1997 by the end of this year.
3) The dollar is falling in value.
4) As the dollar falls more investors trade in commodities (such as oil) increasing demand (and therefore price)
5) Oil is valued in the dollar (which is falling) allowing foreign currencies to purchase more oil for less
6) They do (which increases demand and therefore its price)
7) Massive economic growth in China and India have sharply increased oil demand in the past 10 years (increasing the price)
8) Oil subsidies in China (and other countries) have created an artificially high demand for oil (increasing the price)
9) Refinery limitations in the wake of Katrina sharply restricted supply locally (increasing the price)
10) Blud is a retard and should STFU

[Warriorbird]

None of which means America (and car companies) don't feel the sting of high gas prices.

[Clove]

None of which means America (and car companies) don't feel the sting of high gas prices.Inflation and a declining dollar stings us all. But with EBITDA's of under 15% it isn't greed that's driving increasing oil prices.

[Daniel]

I think that's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. There may be other factors that are influencing the price, but sure as fuck, greed is one of them.

[Soulpieced]

Clove for the win. Boy, those 11% profit margins sure are greedy.

[Keller]

You're amazing and will no doubt be some econ. professor's nightmare.

1) OPEC controls 40% of the oil production in the world and the cartel sets quotas for its member countries in effect significantly controlling world supply
2) Inflation increases cost of EVERYTHING the price of milk per gallon (for example) is expected to reach double its average price from 1997 by the end of this year.
3) The dollar is falling in value.
4) As the dollar falls more investors trade in commodities (such as oil) increasing demand (and therefore price)
5) Oil is valued in the dollar (which is falling) allowing foreign currencies to purchase more oil for less
6) They do (which increases demand and therefore its price)
7) Massive economic growth in China and India have sharply increased oil demand in the past 10 years (increasing the price)
8) Oil subsidies in China (and other countries) have created an artificially high demand for oil (increasing the price)
9) Refinery limitations in the wake of Katrina sharply restricted supply locally (increasing the price)
10) Blud is a retard and should STFU

So beautiful. I almost shed a tear.

[Clove]

I think that's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. There may be other factors that are influencing the price, but sure as fuck, greed is one of them.I suppose it is if you consider an ROI greedy. Frankly the profit margins of oil companies have remained fairly consistent it's market factors that have created the increase in price (the chief of which is our currency decline).

Now if you want to get out your torches and pitchforks start looking at the end of the line retailers. They frequently raise their prices after widespread reporting of crude oil commodity hikes, even though the gas they're selling was purchased at far lower prices months earlier. The crude being bought today won't reach your gas tank for months.

[Seran]

9) Refinery limitations in the wake of Katrina sharply restricted supply locally (increasing the price)

While this is a true statement if one considers the period of August 2005, to roughly May 2006, full refining capacity to seasonal norms was restored for the most part by March '06. I'm curious if your statement was designed to reflect past refining limitations, or ongoing refining limitations from Katrina/Rita.

[Clove]

While this is a true statement if one considers the period of August 2005, to roughly May 2006, full refining capacity to seasonal norms was restored for the most part by March '06. I'm curious if your statement was designed to reflect past refining limitations, or ongoing refining limitations from Katrina/Rita.It's part of the economic history that's brought us to our current market. While refineries are back online, the sudden, prolonged shortage has had a lasting effect on price.

[Daniel]

I suppose it is if you consider an ROI greedy. Frankly the profit margins of oil companies have remained fairly consistent it's market factors that have created the increase in price (the chief of which is our currency decline).

Now if you want to get out your torches and pitchforks start looking at the end of the line retailers. They frequently raise their prices after widespread reporting of crude oil commodity hikes, even though the gas they're selling was purchased at far lower prices months earlier. The crude being bought today won't reach your gas tank for months.

Heh. I don't care. I have plenty of stock in natural resources and I don't drive.

Win.

[Gan]

While this is a true statement if one considers the period of August 2005, to roughly May 2006, full refining capacity to seasonal norms was restored for the most part by March '06. I'm curious if your statement was designed to reflect past refining limitations, or ongoing refining limitations from Katrina/Rita.

I'm curious to your source for the bolded part.


The data I can find says otherwise.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mopueus2A.htm

[Gan]

Excellent presentation on what Clove is talking about.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/presentations/2005/macroadvisers/index.html

[Seran]

It's part of the economic history that's brought us to our current market. While refineries are back online, the sudden, prolonged shortage has had a lasting effect on price.

Actually, both oil and gas prices had corrected by November of 2005, and for a period of nearly a month were actually 20% below pre-Katrina/Rita levels.

Oil prices didn't see a significant increase (5%) until late February when a series of kidnappings/bombings/arson in Nigeria, a suicide attack on oil facilities in Saudi Arabia and Venezuela saying it'd likely begin curbing exports to the US caused speculative investments into futures.

Even then, the market corrected and was trading LOWER still by October '06.

The information points out that you're incorrect.

[Daniel]

I'm curious to your source for the bolded part.


The data I can find says otherwise.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mopueus2A.htm

Back off okay.

[Gan]

:wtf:

[Gan]

Actually, both oil and gas prices had corrected by November of 2005, and for a period of nearly a month were actually 20% below pre-Katrina/Rita levels.

Oil prices didn't see a significant increase (5%) until late February when a series of kidnappings/bombings/arson in Nigeria, a suicide attack on oil facilities in Saudi Arabia and Venezuela saying it'd likely begin curbing exports to the US caused speculative investments into futures.

Even then, the market corrected and was trading LOWER still by October '06.

The information points out that you're incorrect.

Source your shit man.

[Seran]

[quote=Gan;707838]I'm curious to your source for the bolded part./quote]

Read Chapter 5 on post Katrina/Rita production at:

http://www.ftc.gov/reports/060518PublicGasolinePricesInvestigationReportFinal .pdf

Which is an actual investigation into price manipulation on and around the Hurricans.

As to numbers;

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/refinery_capacity_data/historical/2006/table1.pdf

and more importantly

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/wpuleus3w.htm

[Seran]

Source your shit man.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/ftparea/wogirs/xls/pswrgvwnus.xls

By week, you can see the trends. A basic search of all oil headlines during those months shows the rest. I can link those too if you're lazy.

[Gan]

Much better.

thanks

[Gan]

[quote=Gan;707838]I'm curious to your source for the bolded part./quote]

Read Chapter 5 on post Katrina/Rita production at:

http://www.ftc.gov/reports/060518PublicGasolinePricesInvestigationReportFinal .pdf

Which is an actual investigation into price manipulation on and around the Hurricans.

As to numbers;

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/refinery_capacity_data/historical/2006/table1.pdf

and more importantly

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/wpuleus3w.htm


http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mopueus2A.htm

I guess we're interpreting the numbers differently. ;)

[ViridianAsp]

I think the next industry we need to parade in front of Congress is farmers - Have you seen the price of milk, meat and eggs? A gallon of milk costs MORE than a gallon of gas! WTF!

:rofl: and people wonder why Congress has a what.. 12% approval rating.


I think I can answer this one...

The bakery I work at, has been paying 40% more for flour than we were six months ago. Not only that farmers are using more land for corn to sell for fuel production. They make more per acre, than they would for grain, which means the price goes up for grain to feed livestock and make flour. Not to mention having to ship said goods, it's pretty damn expensive.

[Back]

Who really gets the better tax credits? Who really gets government (taxpayer money) bail out? Who does your Representative really work for?

[Keller]

The bakery I work at, has been paying 40% more for flour than we were six months ago. Not only that farmers are using more land for corn to sell for fuel production. They make more per acre, than they would for grain, which means the price goes up for grain to feed livestock and make flour. Not to mention having to ship said goods, it's pretty damn expensive.

Someone listesn to NPR. :tumble:

[Seran]

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mopueus2A.htm

I guess we're interpreting the numbers differently.

One can look at it as a difference in opinion, but in doing a five year average for two years preceeding and following Katrina via spreadsheet on the information presented at the following link:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/wgfrpp32w.htm

Which is the total value in thousands of barrels of finished gasoline product for the Gulf Coast PADD III region, one can see that the refineries were producing withing 96-100% of the average 5-year production. On top of that, during the nine months immediately following August '05, the total unit production per month exceeds that of the next eighteen months a total of fifteen times!

[LG422]

What I'm saying is that the price of crude oil has risen consistently over the last ten years for no other forseeable reason than greed. If you read the original article, you would have seen that there is plenty of supply to meet the demand, so it's not a supply vs. demand problem. The gas companies can still make huge profits, keep their tax breaks, and probably talk the government into subsidizing a large part of their R&D into alternative fuel sources much easier at $2.00 to $2.50 per gallon than they can at $4.00 per gallon.

I know it's a business, and they have investors they need to keep happy. I saw an interview with the CEO of Exxon-Mobile about two years ago on the Today Show, and he came right out and said it. "The reason gas prices are so high is because we have to keep our investors happy. It is a business." I actually appreciate his candor, but come on. There comes a time when it becomes hard to justify a nearly 400% increase in the cost of your product just because you KNOW nobody can do anything about it.

Are you folks REALLY this simplistic? You forget when OPEC had gas prices driven DOWN to nearly 10 bucks/Barrel which in turn drove a considerable amount of American producers out of business. Now...the Chinese and Indians have since grown their consumptions at over 25% annually for these 10 years or so that saw reduced production. Now with global growth in usage..it really won't matter what Opec does demand with continue to outstrip supply.
You wanna grab some profits from the OIL companies? Get ready to stand in line to get gas..THAT was what happened LAST time some IDIOT(s) penalized the oil companies for making money.

What are the true solutions? There really isn't much short term other than releasing a flu pandemic in China and India which would certainly tank demand..but would also FRY the world economy. The only solutions are about 10 years out at this point. I'll save that for another post.

[LG422]

I think I can answer this one...

The bakery I work at, has been paying 40% more for flour than we were six months ago. Not only that farmers are using more land for corn to sell for fuel production. They make more per acre, than they would for grain, which means the price goes up for grain to feed livestock and make flour. Not to mention having to ship said goods, it's pretty damn expensive.


40% in six months? The larger sacks must be priced better. The restaurant I manage had our prices with one vendor go from 10 bucks a 25 pound sack to 15 bucks a sack in ONE price jump. Now this could have been from their stocking up before the price increase so when it got to us we got it in one big jump. Actually somewhere close to a year ago..we were paying 6 and change for a 25 pound sack of high gluten flour and now we are paying 17 and change..the price has very nearly tripled in a year.
One aspect of the flour increase you missed has to do with Australia. Because of their long term extreme drought, they had almost a non-existent wheat crop this year.
Being one that wants to take the cash out of our enemies pockets, I was all for Ethanol production(along with hookin a water turbine to the kitchen sink and anything else that might work) in order to reduce our dependance. I realized after the fact that Ethanol isn't worth it in the short term because of the increase it is causing in the most basic staples. I mean TRIPLE on flour? WTF MATE! Then I started thinkin...well maybe we should see about greater soybean production as a means to reduce diesel prices by greater bio-diesel production. scratch that idea...Usually I paid 15-19 dollars for 35 pound jugs of Fry Oil(soybean oil). Yesterday I picked up some things at Sam's and after I left I thought about my bill and wondered if the girl did something wrong cause it didn't jive to me. I checked the receipt and the oil was $30.99....WOW! Cancel the straight from crop to diesel idea....
Other than greater waste oil reclamation efforts, I have since changed my mind on the use of food products as alternative fuel sources.

[Gan]

Other than greater waste oil reclamation efforts, I have since changed my mind on the use of food products as alternative fuel sources.

Heh, I watched an episode of MythBusters ( :love: ) this weekend and saw where they were testing different snake oil products that supposedly ran your car either on alternatives or increased gas mileage.

The only 'myth' they worked through that was confirmed was running a diesel car off of fry oil from a local fast food resturant. No converting, they ran it straight from a container to the fuel pump.

The mileage was about 10% less than normal according to their calculations - but it worked.

[Clove]

Other than greater waste oil reclamation efforts, I have since changed my mind on the use of food products as alternative fuel sources.Agriculturally-based fuel products are utter dead ends. Barring some sci-fi fuel-producing bacteria, there's no way we'd be able to commit the resources necessary to meet even a fraction of the demand.

One additional factor on flour prices; most pesticides are petroleum based. Grain prices rise with crude prices.

[Warriorbird]

Hydrogen/electric doesn't work too bad as a concept... given the way that gas prices are going.

Gas stations don't profit much on selling gas.

[ViridianAsp]

40% in six months? The larger sacks must be priced better. The restaurant I manage had our prices with one vendor go from 10 bucks a 25 pound sack to 15 bucks a sack in ONE price jump. Now this could have been from their stocking up before the price increase so when it got to us we got it in one big jump. Actually somewhere close to a year ago..we were paying 6 and change for a 25 pound sack of high gluten flour and now we are paying 17 and change..the price has very nearly tripled in a year.
One aspect of the flour increase you missed has to do with Australia. Because of their long term extreme drought, they had almost a non-existent wheat crop this year.
Being one that wants to take the cash out of our enemies pockets, I was all for Ethanol production(along with hookin a water turbine to the kitchen sink and anything else that might work) in order to reduce our dependance. I realized after the fact that Ethanol isn't worth it in the short term because of the increase it is causing in the most basic staples. I mean TRIPLE on flour? WTF MATE! Then I started thinkin...well maybe we should see about greater soybean production as a means to reduce diesel prices by greater bio-diesel production. scratch that idea...Usually I paid 15-19 dollars for 35 pound jugs of Fry Oil(soybean oil). Yesterday I picked up some things at Sam's and after I left I thought about my bill and wondered if the girl did something wrong cause it didn't jive to me. I checked the receipt and the oil was $30.99....WOW! Cancel the straight from crop to diesel idea....
Other than greater waste oil reclamation efforts, I have since changed my mind on the use of food products as alternative fuel sources.

We buy bread flour bi-weekly usually about 5-6 50 lbs., 2 50 lbs. of wheat and 3 50 lbs of sugar, then whatever else we need, we also buy the organic unbleached on our bread flour. Oh and 3 50 lbs, of pastry flour, but the prices have definitely been steadily increasing, from what my manager says, he didn't understand why and when I told him he went off on a tangent about it.

[LG422]

Hydrogen/electric doesn't work too bad as a concept....
Zero emission cars are great as a concept.... its the practical application that's the bitch. At present hydrogen poduction takes a lot of energy to split water and then there is the volatility of it in gas form as the molecules are so small they tend to leak through stuff easily as well as take too much volume. In liquid form its just too dangerous to practically handle...refueling would need to be roboticized and if a crash or fuel leak occured the results could be gruesome in a normally non-fatal crash. That leads fuel cell technology as the most practical alternative here...the only problem here is the fuel cell limits at present and the supporting infrastucture for refueling.
As to electric cars..obviously it would be a no brainer to use hybrid style regenrative breaks to extend drive time. The battery technolgy is functional though still not where it would be practical for all users. The big problem once again comes back to recharging infrastructure. If we could get solar efficiencies around 50 per cent(about double the current max) and imbedded flexible panels on car surfaces...that would help a bit on sunny days as well...
Ultimately both these technologies need NUKE power to make these concepts truly practical. Nuclear power IS most of the answer.