Popping my warrior cherry

[Woden]

Greetings, all.

I come seeking advice on the training of my soon-to-be-created secondary character. He is almost certainly going to be a warrior--which is why I'm posting this in the warrior section--but one of the points I'd like advice on is whether it would be better, mechanically, to roll him as a rogue.

The concept I have in mind is polearm and brawling and ambush. The brawling for defense while holding a lance, as well as for the Fu (never had a Voln character, and I'm quite looking forward to it).

In a perfect world, I'd be double-training in: armor, physical fitness, polearm, brawling, CM, hiding, ambush, dodge, first aid, survival, and perception. However, seeing as that's not mathematically possible, I'd like advice on what I could or should cut out or reduce. This will be my first square character, so despite my research, there are probably things I don't know about playing one, so bear with me if the discussion gets technical. : D

Thanks for any help.

[Stunseed]

Malrocky ( played by Elrodin on PC ), was built like that. If I weren't so into TWC morning stars I would prolly do the same path you're looking at now.

One thing tho, you can't ambush with a lance.

[Tolwynn]

To listen to other warriors in other threads here, the best possible thing to do would be to quit while you're ahead and roll a pure, or at least a rogue instead.

[Woden]

Ooh, ouch. See, there's that lack of knowledge I mentioned biting me in the ass. Are there polearms you CAN ambush with? And are they worth ambushing with? Or would combat with this build be poking with the lance from the open, and ambushing with sais or the like from hiding?

[Fallen]

Can you ambush with an Awl-pike? They are the equal, or better than lances when perfectly forged.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I believe you can ambush with any polearm save the lance.

[Woden]

Hmm. According to the Krakiipedia, you cannot ambush with any two-handed polearm. : /

I suppose that isn't the end of the world; after all, I'm given to understand that lances are forged from atomically pure awesomium, so even without the benefits granted by ambushing, they'd still be a lot of fun to use. But now I'm wondering, what's the ambushing for in the build? Is ambush brawling sufficiently useful to devote all those points to?

[Fallen]

Open ambushing (Aimed shots) is fucking fantastic. Brawling is useful, but not nearly as much as having a great shot at putting a lance through something's head every swing.

[Woden]

You make an excellent point. I didn't notice where the Krakiipedia said "cannot be used to ambush FROM HIDING." That definitely brings the fun meter back to 10. So, I should skip the hide training, or does that still have utility?

Also, I forgot to ask this before: when holding a two-handed weapon, can you Voln punch and throw?

[Fallen]

The open ambushing (via swing or hurl) build is the only one I really find a use for in terms of warriors. I wouldn't keep the hiding, though, unless you mean to RP it out. As for the two-handed and Voln question, I believe the answer is yes you can, but with a penalty. Still, at 2x Brawling it should be very viable.

[Woden]

I've heard of hurling, but I don't know anything about the mechanics of it. Is "swing" a verb I've never heard of, or do you just mean the ordinary "you swing an X at a Y and it goes blarg" attack?

The recommendation to drop hiding is actually very useful, because without hiding, and with 1.5x dodge and 1x perception, I'm down to a per-level TP cost that is doable (hopefully).

How does this look?
2x the following:
Armor Use
Physical Fitness
Polearm Weapons
Brawling
Combat Maneuvers
Ambush
First Aid

1.5x: Dodge

1x:
Survival
Perception

I'd like recommendations on what race to roll him as, or is it as simple as "pick one of the square-oriented races and go with it"?

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Voln Fu is perfectly viable for punch and kick with one hand open, though I believe throw is better suited for two hands open. Not sure on that though. At any rate, if you're set on ambushing from hiding, a maul, or even quarterstaff would do the trick. Staves are iffy, but if aimed at the head, the small crush crits they generate will be amplified tenfold by the DS pushdown.

If you insist on polearms, I certainly suggest a naginata until you title. They're by far the craziest weapon for young pole users, as they're a blend of jeddart speed and awl pike power. Simply insane from 10-20, and you can simply buy one from the shop, e-blade it, and have a 4x (or what is essentially 8x) flaring naginata at lvl 10 on. It's scary.

EDIT: Race wise, go with human, or giant if you're looking for pure power, though elves can swing hard enough, and faster than either with a lance. Try to 2x dodge asap if at all possible.

[BigWorm]

EDIT: Race wise, go with human, or giant if you're looking for pure power, though elves can swing hard enough, and faster than either with a lance. Try to 2x dodge asap if at all possible.

Elves are the only race that can do 5 sec lance RT without enhancives, right? I guess maybe halflings or gnomes can, but that would be a hard road.

[Fallen]

Ambushing with a maul or perfectly forged mattock from hiding sounds disgustingly fun if you could get the RT down.

[Woden]

I'm still in the exploratory phase of the build, so I'm not insisting on anything except ambushing. I'd like to try the Fu because I've heard it's ridiculously powerful (and after 32 levels of swinging a claid with my main character, it'll be nice to give the undead what-for), and my motivation for wanting a lance is the same.

My original concept was to dual-wield sais and katars--which would also give me access to falchions and the like--and ambush from hiding. I'm open to any and all ideas at this stage, so lay 'em on me. : D

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Voln Fu is limited by your patience, aswell as your expectations. Mind you I have no personal experience with the following statement, but I've heard there's a series of diminishing returns on your Fu investment. It gets weaker and weaker as you progress, and soon you'll find yourself just blessing your weapon, or carrying a blessable weapon over Fu. At any rate, dual longsword ambushing is amazing, even with generic 4x blades. Dual daggers is becoming less common, but it's still very viable.

If you want more power... ambushing with a quarterstaff, as mentioned, is seriously viable. amb kobold head = dead kobold. just like amb lunatic head = dead lunatic. There are two other clearly defined benefits of this...

1) You're never locked into a quarterstaff. As a warrior, you may sacrifice a bit early to weapon spec. in staff use, but the difference will be small, when you decide you need more power and whip out that maul. This also allows you to make judgements based on situation, as the quarterstaff's crush only critting and ridiculous speed make it a clear cut MONSTER on anything with brig or less.

2) With quarterstaves, you have one of the cheapest, and most common high high high end weapons available to you, in the vultite-alloy quarterstaff. One is irritatingly being sold at 20m in a playershop, but expect to pay a quarter of that. An amazing bargain for a crush only 4x MCW weapon, when compared to a 4x HCW maul for 20m.

With that said, I'm not saying you'll have the same dominating abilities as a maul ambusher would, but again, you have the freedom to test the path out as able. Using a staff also provides trip to your cman arsenal, which is something that is hard to pass up.

[Woden]

Recently a friend of mine who plays a capped cleric told me there's a capped empath who very successfully uses the Fu in OTF. Take that for what it's worth, but it impressed me. With that said, I'm not married to the idea of being a Volner for the Fu, but I suspect I'd enjoy it.

One point I should make: I don't expect that this character will ever get within smelling distance of cap. I'd be surprised if he made 50. He will be, and will remain, my secondary character to play when I want a change of pace, so I'm not terribly worried about end-game viability.

I honestly never even considered quarterstaves as a viable weapon choice. That's amazing. You really do learn something every day. Haha. If crush crits are that excellent, what about using Precision to cause some other weapon type to do only crush damage? Would that work just as well, or is there a difference that I'm missing?

Waitaminutehere... You said the vultite-alloy quarterstaff is MCW. Is that specific to that particular staff, or are all quarterstaves crit-weighted?

[Fallen]

Specific to that staff. Quarterstaffs are usually seen as one of the worst weapons in the game (I've sworn I've seen threads of people bitching about them). I don't speak from personal experience, though.

[Some Rogue]

I don't think you even need to 2x ambush. I thought that 40 ranks was really all you needed to hit what you're aiming for with a two hander. I just recently fix skilled one of my warriors to using 2 handers and brawling for Fu and I stopped with 40 ranks of ambush and he has no problem hitting what he aims for. If he doesn't one shot anything he swings at, they're down for a good long stun.

[Some Rogue]

Quarterstaffs are usually seen as one of the worst weapons in the game (I've sworn I've seen threads of people bitching about them). I don't speak from personal experience, though.

They are and you have.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Excuse me, but you're being awfully stereotypical. If people only swung daggers from the open, they'd be bitching about those, too. AMBUSHING with a quarterstaff is perfectly viable. The vultite-alloy quarterstaff makes it even easier.

Oddly enough, the DFs are pretty similar, and IMHO the quarterstaff's crush only makes it a better weapon to ambush with. It's rather simple to aim, just as a dagger is, and has similar speed. The only reason people complain about them, is if they're dumb enough to use them for generic open swings, in which they should be bitching about being naive instead.

[StrayRogue]

The difference between a dagger ambush and a staff ambush is about the same as a staff ambush and a maul ambush, in my experience. If you're going to ambush with two-handers (which is perfectly viable - just stock up on the skills - ambush, CM, perc etc), don't do it with a lousy stick; do it with a claidh or a maul, or don't bother.

[Fallen]

What is the RT difference between ambushing from hiding with a Quarterstaff, and with a maul? What is the lowest RT possible (Via enhancives)?

[Asha]

istn't staff RT lowest at 5 secs?
I used them as an ambush rogue for a laugh

[StrayRogue]

Quarterstaff is +5 and maul is +7 I believe.

[Fallen]

If I could get one of those MCW quarterstaffs I suppose that could be worthwhile. But honestly, when you need MCW on a weapon so that can compete with anything else, there is a problem.

[StrayRogue]

Welcome to thrown weapons.

[Asha]

MCW staffs are really, really cheap for a reason. But yeah Fallen said it all.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Did I ever say he MUST be a pure stick ambusher? NO. Hell, I even suggested he switch to a maul when he needed more power. How about you all do yourselves a big favor and pull the respective sticks out of your asses, instead of jumping on someone for giving a different outlook that you generic schmucks can't. ZOMG THAT ISN'T MECHANICALLY BENEFITIAL!

Just stfu and accept it for what it is, and what I say it is. It's fun, when used a certain way, in certain situations. Not to mention effective. If you're going to compare every idea to something better, then fto hell with all of you as posters on this forum. I'd rather watch Stanley post; at least he's entertaining.

End of.

[Fallen]

Wow. It's the PC, man. Take her easy.

[Some Rogue]

Wow. It's the PC, man. Take her easy.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/serious_dontyouknow.jpg

[Lysander]

It's ridiculously hard to aim with a lance. But menos has said that at cap fully singled in ambush and doubled in CM he can hit his mark 75% of the time. Claids are slightly less aim prohibitive. I would say a claid will hit 75% at around level 50 fully singled and doubled in CM.

Best bet go with a perfect mattock and enchant it up to 10x and get some weighting on it. Thats probably the best weapon in the game thus far. (short of going ranged).

[Silvanostar]

Voln Fu is limited by your patience, aswell as your expectations. Mind you I have no personal experience with the following statement, but I've heard there's a series of diminishing returns on your Fu investment. It gets weaker and weaker as you progress, and soon you'll find yourself just blessing your weapon, or carrying a blessable weapon over Fu. At any rate, dual longsword ambushing is amazing, even with generic 4x blades. Dual daggers is becoming less common, but it's still very viable.

until you get kick2 and punch2, voln fu is pretty weak. I'm not sure about the dimished returns part, but i do know that undead mb are incredibly low up to soul golems. i'm not able to get into the rift with my ranger yet so i can't comment on how well fu works.

if you're going to be a warrior, i say be a man and go twc stars. col+2 stars+master in berserk is pretty crazy

[Baelog]

The only "diminish" I've ever seen while using Voln-Fu, is that the heavier your armor, the less effective your Voln-Fu is, also, it's less effective on critters that spawn with defensive spells, like Phantasams and Eidolons.

Of course, you could always find a Ranger to toss Mobility on you, which adds +20 to Voln Fu, period, and all AS increasing spells also provide small bonuses to Voln Fu. Throw is better performed empty handed, but holding a Polearm in one hand while Punching and Kicking is perfectly viable. I used to use a shield like that for the huge DS boost from the shield.

As far as the Polearms go, I don't believe a Human or Giant has the Dex and Agility (without enhancives) to swing a Lance or Awl-Pike in 5 seconds, so yeah, a Ebladed Naginata is stupid effective.

With Twohanded weapons, you have a bit more leeway. Mauls, Mattocks, Claidhs, Greatswords, Flails, Military Picks, Battle Axes are all very good

[Woden]

I'm a huge fan of claids, but my primary character is a claid-swinger, and I really don't relish the idea of trying to scrape together enough money for two ridiculously expensive weapons. It's going to be a long time--if ever--before I can afford a better claid or better armor for him, let alone for a secondary character. A training path that allows me to be effective while wielding as much off the shelf (so to speak) gear is highly desirable.

[StrayRogue]

Did I ever say he MUST be a pure stick ambusher? NO. Hell, I even suggested he switch to a maul when he needed more power. How about you all do yourselves a big favor and pull the respective sticks out of your asses, instead of jumping on someone for giving a different outlook that you generic schmucks can't. ZOMG THAT ISN'T MECHANICALLY BENEFITIAL!

Just stfu and accept it for what it is, and what I say it is. It's fun, when used a certain way, in certain situations. Not to mention effective. If you're going to compare every idea to something better, then fto hell with all of you as posters on this forum. I'd rather watch Stanley post; at least he's entertaining.

End of.

You're an idiot. If you want to advance slowly, ineffectively, and generally be underpowered compared to everyone else, sure, choose the wettest two-hander to swing.

Otherwise don't be a retard and choose a real weapon.

[thefarmer]

Wait, so I understand, the OP wants to use a twohander or polearm, and use Fu with his open LEFT hand?

I didn't think Fu worked like that?

[Stunseed]

< if you're going to be a warrior, i say be a man and go twc stars. col+2 stars+master in berserk is pretty crazy >

Yes it is. :)

[Latrinsorm]

Brawling doesn't offer any DS when using a polearm.

Brawling weapons stink, stink, stink.

Pretty much any open build is better off being a warrior, including this one, especially because bonding provides a HUGE aiming bonus (and warriors spend less than half as much on poles as rogues).

Hurling isn't worth the effort with jumbo weapons.

CMAN Precision doesn't work on aimed attacks, which is what makes the maul (and to a lesser extent the quarterstaff) so desireable. However, these are THW weapons, not polearms.

.

Any sort of hide/ambusher is going to be much easier as a rogue because warriors are pretty crappy at hiding.

[Woden]

I'm writing this post in Notepad in order to be stealthy at work with people walking by my cube, so forgive the lack of forum quotes as I address the last few posts.

I had the idea of brawling+polearm to gain the open-hand defense bonus from brawling while also being able to use Voln Fu without stowing my lance. If there's no defense bonus, that hurts the idea more than the Fu not allowing left handed attacks. Regarding the brawling defense, I knew that it wouldn't give me any DS, but I thought it would grant some benefit in EBP?

"Brawling weapons stink," including katars? I'd read that katars were pretty decent.

As I previously said, I'm not married to any particular element of the build. This will be my first square character, and there's a lot I don't know, so I'm looking for ideas that would be fun to play without requiring billions of silver.

I picked up a 4x maul for my primary character a couple days ago to swing at the undead, 'cause using wands got old and expensive real quick. I've enjoyed the damage it puts out (and I need to remember to swing it at something that's crittable to see what kind of fun that is). I have no problem going THW rather than polearms, or TWC rather than polearms, or any X rather than any Y. I'm looking to have fun as a warrior and be viable through around level 50-60, because I seriously doubt I'll get any higher than that, and I'd be somewhat surprised to even make it that high. My primary character will remain my primary character, after all.

[thefarmer]

First figure out what kind of fun you want.

Easy the whole time? EAsy for the first 50 levels? Easy for the last 50?

(I'd assume the first two, since it's a secondary character.)

[Woden]

Definitely the first two. Once his instant-migration period is over, I expect to be playing him one or two days a week, so I'm looking for a) a relatively self-sufficient, pick-up-and-play build, and more importantly, b) as different a play style as I can get from my main character, who is a THW wizard. That's why my initial concepts were TWC+brawling and polearms+brawling. He's a claid swinger, though, so even going THW with a different weapon, plus the addition of aimed shots, will be sufficiently different. I would enjoy the ability to mix it up a bit, though. What's the point of a warrior if you're not going to bristle with various weapons (and cmans) to suit the situation, after all? : D

[Latrinsorm]

Regarding the brawling defense, I knew that it wouldn't give me any DS, but I thought it would grant some benefit in EBP?No defensive benefit whatsoever beyond redux gains (and if you want redux you can spend better elsewhere).
I'd read that katars were pretty decent.Katars are hybrid brawling/edged, and honestly even they aren't that great.

I would say try out the maul/aim strategy. 2x ambush, CM, THW, PF, armor, 1.5x dodge, and fill in as you can with extra points: armor to 80 ASAP, dodge to 2x, PF to 3x, or ancillaries.

[StrayRogue]

Perception if you want to aim your ambushes.

[Latrinsorm]

Perception doesn't help with open aiming.

[StrayRogue]

Ah yes, of course. Was in THRogue mode there.

[Woden]

With maul/aim, which society would you folks recommend?

A related question: is going Voln worth it if you're not Fuing?

[Gnomad]

With maul/aim, which society would you folks recommend?

A related question: is going Voln worth it if you're not Fuing?For the most part, no. Dreams sucks now, and if you're not using Fu, the only thing Voln gives you is the tapestry in the landing, the ability to bless your own weapons, a 0 RT auto-knockdown vs undead, and a group fog. That said, picking up brawling is so cheap for warriors that if you want Voln for any of those reasons, you can find the extra points.

Comparatively, CoL gives you more AS, more DS, TD, won't make you hunt undead, and goes a lot faster.

I can't comment much on the GoS, but I hear their ability durations leave you wanting.

[Woden]

Sunfist seems interesting, especially for a square whose every point of AS is not quite so terribly precious. Giving up 15 AS/DS in exchange for padding and weighting doesn't seem too bad a trade. I would really miss staunching, though. If I did do Sunfist, am I correct in thinking that it would be much easier at lower levels, rather than later when the warcamps have really mean spells?

[Some Rogue]

If I did do Sunfist, am I correct in thinking that it would be much easier at lower levels, rather than later when the warcamps have really mean spells?

Yes, my level 16 warrior has no problems in camps solo since the changes.