Rice hits U.S. 'birth defect'

[Kefka]

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national "birth defect" that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country's very founding.

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

"That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today," she said.


http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768/1001

[Keller]

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national "birth defect" that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country's very founding.

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

"That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today," she said.


http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768/1001 (http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768/1001)

As a former semi-conservative, does she not see how this is racist?

[Stanley Burrell]

Weren't the first slaves incarcerated caucasoid miscreants shipped over to do prison labor for the Virginia Company? Not that they deserve any recognition. Puny whitebois.

[Jesuit]

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national "birth defect" that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country's very founding.

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

"That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today," she said.


http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768/1001



As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."


I didn't have much of a head start either, my family wasn't in America 200 years ago.

[Keller]

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

I didn't have much of a head start either, my family wasn't in America 200 years ago.

Were they in their country of origin being paid for the work they did?

Were they institutionally denied education? Were they PUNISHED for learning to read?

I think you get the point.

[Jesuit]

Were they in their country of origin being paid for the work they did?

Were they institutionally denied education? Were they PUNISHED for learning to read?

I think you get the point.

I think you missed mine.

[Keller]

I think you missed mine.

Nope.

[Stanley Burrell]

As a former semi-conservative, does she not see how this is racist?

She had to stay with the times. She must've meant before White Flight switched Republicans and Democrats on the liberal-to-conservative spectrum, being the erudite scholar that any politician naturally is.

[Jesuit]

Were they in their country of origin being paid for the work they did?

Were they institutionally denied education? Were they PUNISHED for learning to read?

I think you get the point.

I didn't want to get personal here but my family came to America during the Russian revolution and I'm sure they didn't get paid much during that time. And being born to an immigrant family my grandmother had to quit school at eighth grade and go work in a factory.

Did you get that point?

[Keller]

I didn't want to get personal here but my family came to America during the Russian revolution and I'm sure they didn't get paid much during that time. And being born to an immigrant family my grandmother had to quit school at eighth grade and go work in a factory.

Did you get that point?

Your family chose to come to America. After not getting paid much in Russia.

Your mother had an education.

Your mother got paid for her labor.

Am I missing anything?

[Jesuit]

Your family chose to come to America. After not getting paid much in Russia.

Your mother had an education.

Your mother got paid for her labor.

Am I missing anything?

You don't know what they chose. And you don't even know my mother.

[Lyonis]

I didn't want to get personal here but my family came to America during the Russian revolution and I'm sure they didn't get paid much during that time. And being born to an immigrant family my grandmother had to quit school at eighth grade and go work in a factory.

Did you get that point?

No, it's just that your point is lacking.

Condi was referring to Europeans as a whole and the establishment they created that excluded those that didn't fit their view of an what a person looks like. Even if your family was only here for a generation or two, if you were white you had a shot at participating in this country and how well you did could largely be attributed to merit. Not so if you were a person of color. It was sort of like, "If you're white, the sky is the limit. If you're black, the limit is the sky." for the most part, but it could be much worse. Even if a group from Europe was systematically kept down in a similar manner ie the Irish, it wasn't nearly as bad and it only lasted a minute. When that whole crazy mess was over they were embraced by the system as full participants.

Not that things haven't vastly improved but if you are a minority that's only a reality that started give or take 1964. When you think about how influential one's family can be in determining your success you can easily see how having the previous couple three hundred years of your family history being illiterates by force could impact people 40 years later. I think that was Keller's point.

[g++]

Even if a group from Europe was systematically kept down in a similar manner ie the Irish, it wasn't nearly as bad and it only lasted a minute.

700 years of oppression and still counting you protestant bastard! j/k

[Clove]

What, no Native American comments on this?

[Stanley Burrell]

What, no Native American comments on this?

Native who?

[Lyonis]

What, no Native American comments on this?

There's not enough of them left to really bitch about anything :(

[Clove]

Your family chose to come to America. After not getting paid much in Russia.

Your mother had an education.

Your mother got paid for her labor.

Am I missing anything?

I'm sorry, how long does a group need to have access to education and opportunities before we can say they have a fair shot at a good life?

[Kembal]

I'm sorry, how long does a group need to have access to education and opportunities before we can say they have a fair shot at a good life?

Usually 2 to 3 generations, assuming that access to education/opportunities isn't institutionally impaired in a way that has a disproportionate negative effect on a group. (see: funding for inner-city schools)

[Gan]

http://gravybread.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/crying-indian_fullhead80p.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

One of the "greatest" things America can do is recycle slavery and continue to make repetitous amends that completely whitewash the fact that we genocided an entire group of people. We literally genocided the Native Americans, like, a for-real-for-real genocide. I don't even want to think about that.

[Gan]

What do you expect when you boat up a bunch of criminals from prison and ship them over to the 'new country' to ease the (UK's) prison overcrowding.

Whitey had a head start, we were already crooks when we stepped foot onto American soil.

[BigWorm]

What do you expect when you boat up a bunch of criminals from prison and ship them over to the 'new country' to ease the (UK's) prison overcrowding.
Whitey had a head start, we were already crooks when we stepped foot onto American soil.
Australia?

One of the "greatest" things America can do is recycle slavery and continue to make repetitous amends that completely whitewash the fact that we genocided an entire group of people. We literally genocided the Native Americans, like, a for-real-for-real genocide. I don't even want to think about that.
Oh, well, I'll just post a funny picture of a Native American crying. Ha! We tricked those assholes.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Usually 2 to 3 generations, assuming that access to education/opportunities isn't institutionally impaired in a way that has a disproportionate negative effect on a group. (see: funding for inner-city schools)

I'm not familiar with how funding for inner-city schools differs from other schools across the nation. What's the difference?

Note that I think all public schools, not just inner-city, are under-funded and under-staffed, not to mention have limited or disparate means of measuring their effectiveness.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm curious for those that think the native americans are owed something, do you also think all conquering nations owe the conquered some sort of accomodation?

[Stanley Burrell]

I think it's just amazing that we've used the term "genocide" to describe the systematic eradication of a people; we've assigned its use for subsaharran Africa, The Holocaust, and many majority-vs.-minority scenarios. But the land that we are standing on is literally a graveyard where that term fully applies itself. And we, the genocide labelers, are the ones who did it.

I don't understand how even the most liberal studies seem to talk about The Trail of Tears and "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it." And that it somehow makes the subject of our complete genociding of The Natives fully covered. Doesn't this severely bother anyone else?

[Clove]

Usually 2 to 3 generations, assuming that access to education/opportunities isn't institutionally impaired in a way that has a disproportionate negative effect on a group. (see: funding for inner-city schools)

Interesting, and only African Americans attend inner-city schools? What's education funding like for poor, predominantly white communities? Does education funding for middle-class and wealthy communities increase and decrease in direct proportion to the African Americans that live in them?

[DeV]

There's not enough of them left to really bitch about anything :(Pretty much. Not to mention the Native American slave trade was pretty short lived anyway due to the early settlers finding that it was much easier for them to run off into the wilderness, never to be found again. Europeans also believed Native Americans men to be culturally conditioned to be hunters, so they'd have a much harder time adapting to working in the field, which Native Americans considered a womans job. For these reasons and more Europeans perferred African slaves.

In any case, Native Americans owned black slaves of their own, but that hardly discounts the oppression their culture has endured since the forming of our country and the long lasting effects of the measures undertaken to displace them from their land.

[Lyonis]

I'm not familiar with how funding for inner-city schools differs from other schools across the nation. What's the difference?



I always thought property taxes made up a large portion of a district's funding in which case it would explain a lot of the under funding in the inner cities compared to suburbia. Though with how expensive houses, even in the ghetto, are in Los Angeles it does make you wonder...

[Gan]

Australia?
And the US.



Oh, well, I'll just post a funny picture of a Native American crying. Ha! We tricked those assholes.
wooooosh


Good to see you're still butthurt over the cop thread though.
:lol:

[Warriorbird]

There's a large percentage of poor white people.

With that said I'm not going to devolve into bashing black people like some folks over it. A portion of my ancestors were poor Eastern European immigrants. That's no justification for the type of "We had it hard! they didn't have it that bad!" bullshit that Jesuit is tossing out. My ancestors and his ancestors were lucky to get out rather than be stuck behind the Iron Curtain and probably expire with the countless other Eastern Europeans in World War II (27 million Russians was it?)

[Kembal]

I'm not familiar with how funding for inner-city schools differs from other schools across the nation. What's the difference?

Lyonis hit the nail on the head...generally property taxes are the major way schools are funded outside of allocations from the state, and urban property values are generally less than suburban property values.

I agree that most public schools are under-funded and under-staffed currently.

[Kembal]

Interesting, and only African Americans attend inner-city schools? What's education funding like for poor, predominantly white communities? Does education funding for middle-class and wealthy communities increase and decrease in direct proportion to the African Americans that live in them?

C'mon, Clove, you're better than that. I didn't say that funding for schools decreased/increased based on the proportion of African-Americans attending the schools. What I said was that institutional impairments could harm access to education/opportunities.

In this case, property taxes largely determine funding for schools across most of the U.S. Lower property values in inner-city areas result in inner-city schools receiving less funding than suburban schools, and it's not always made up by the state government.

It has a negative effect on everyone attending inner-city schools. However, as African-Americans have the highest proportion of students in inner-city schools, this funding disparity results in a disproportionate negative effect on them as a group.

[Clove]

C'mon, Clove, you're better than that. I didn't say that funding for schools decreased/increased based on the proportion of African-Americans attending the schools. What I said was that institutional impairments could harm access to education/opportunities.On other words those with less means have less opportunities. It's a class effect, not a race effect.

[Warriorbird]

Interestingly enough... you just argued like Karl Marx, Clove.

;)

[TheEschaton]

Up with the proletariat! Down with the ruling class! ;)

[Drew]

I'm curious for those that think the native americans are owed something, do you also think all conquering nations owe the conquered some sort of accomodation?


I wonder the same thing. We conquered and took the Indian's land because we were better than them. White people's ancestors did the same thing in Northern Europe to the Neanderthals. I don't understand the thought that the first person who walked somewhere has earned the right for their descendants to retain the land they walked on first until the sun explodes.

If the Indians didn't war amongst themselves over the same land I guess there could be some sort of moral superiority but I don't feel bad that we did what they did, better.



PS: Eventually it will happen to us, America is already getting fat and lazy, those who come after us will eventually be conquered themselves.

[Stanley Burrell]

I wonder the same thing. We conquered and took the Indian's land because we were better than them.

What in fuck's sake? At what? Mercantilism?

[Warriorbird]

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/artman2/uploads/1/v-thefinalbattlepic.JPG

[Kembal]

On other words those with less means have less opportunities. It's a class effect, not a race effect.

It's a class effect that has a disproportionate negative effect on African-Americans (and Hispanics) as a group. Under Supreme Court precedent, disproportionate negative effects on a protected class (race, ethnicity, etc.)due to a policy or law can be considered discriminatory, even if there was no discriminatory intent in the formulation of the law or policy.

Hell, this very issue has been recognized in court decisions as discriminatory. See the Robin Hood plan in Texas for an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood_plan


The Robin Hood plan was a media nickname given to legislation enacted by the U.S. state of Texas in 1993 to provide court-mandated equitable school financing for all school districts in the state. Similar to the legend of Robin Hood, who "robbed from the rich and gave to the poor", the law "recaptured" property tax revenue from property-wealthy school districts and distributed those in property-poor districts, in an effort to equalize the financing of all districts throughout Texas.

In 1984, the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund filed suit against state Commissioner of Education William Kirby on behalf of the Edgewood Independent School District in San Antonio, citing discrimination against students in poor school districts. The plaintiffs charged that the state's methods of funding public schools violated the state constitution, which required the state to provide an efficient public school system.

[Drew]

What in fuck's sake? At what? Mercantilism?

Farming, husbandry, building, communications, organizing, sailing. What weren't we better than the Indians at?

[Lyonis]

On other words those with less means have less opportunities. It's a class effect, not a race effect.

Agreed and you bring up an excellent point. The problems that those in the inner city have are those that are shared by all poor people in this country, regardless of race. When I mentioned being raised by generations of illiterates in reference to one reason why it's difficult for minorities to succeed I didn't mean to imply that it's a greater challenge today then some poor cracker living in a trailer with three generations of meth addicts to call his own. The difference is that while the disadvantaged and poor are certainly not the exception in the white population, they tend to be the rule in the minority one.

[Stanley Burrell]

Farming, husbandry, building, communications, organizing, sailing. What weren't we better than the Indians at?

Making beef kurma and naan.

They're called Native Americans, bah :-\

[Warriorbird]

Better at conquering other people and using contagion for increased damage, Stanley.

[TheEschaton]

Funny, I was under the impression that all the white people would have died without the Indians' help.

-TheE-

[Clove]

It's a class effect that has a disproportionate negative effect on African-Americans (and Hispanics) as a group. Under Supreme Court precedent, disproportionate negative effects on a protected class (race, ethnicity, etc.)due to a policy or law can be considered discriminatory, even if there was no discriminatory intent in the formulation of the law or policy.Once again, it isn't that I don't understand your point, it is that I disagree with your point. African Americans and Hispanics are NOT being barred from educational (or other opportunities) based on their race. If an African American (or any other minority) is POOR however, they are barred from education and access, the same as any impoverished individual regardless of their race. This makes it a rich vs. poor issue, NOT a race issue. I know Daniel and (many others) disagree with me, but that's my opinion.

[Warriorbird]

Funny, I was under the impression that all the white people would have died without the Indians' help.

-TheE-

Jamestown wise? Yep. They then proceeded to take advantage of them all the way across the continent.

[Daniel]

On other words those with less means have less opportunities. It's a class effect, not a race effect.

This is true. However, you miss the part where an entire race was relegated to the lowest class.

[Daniel]

Once again, it isn't that I don't understand your point, it is that I disagree with your point. African Americans and Hispanics are NOT being barred from educational (or other opportunities) based on their race. If an African American (or any other minority) is POOR however, they are barred from education and access, the same as any impoverished individual regardless of their race. This makes it a rich vs. poor issue, NOT a race issue. I know Daniel and (many others) disagree with me, but that's my opinion.

Actually,

I agree with you. However, I don't gloss over the fact that hundreds of years of discrimination still dispropotionately effect one group.

[Drew]

They're called Native Americans, bah :-\


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy



Better at conquering other people and using contagion for increased damage, Stanley.


What skills are required for being better at conquering? Why were Europeans resistant to contagions that killed Indians (Hint: towns and cities). What skills are needed to run towns and cities? Did American Indians have any of these?




Funny, I was under the impression that all the white people would have died without the Indians' help.

-TheE-



All the white people = 50 people in Jamestown? I think you've vastly underestimated the number of white people alive in the middle 1600s. Anyway if the Indians hadn't have helped them, clearly that would have stopped European expansion into the "Indies".

[Clove]

This is true. However, you miss the part where an entire race was relegated to the lowest class.Oh hey, Daniel, we disagree often and spiritedly but I don't consider you low-class.

If we're going to help the poor we need to help ALL poor equally, I don't believe in an extra focus based on race, simply because one race may be comprised of more poor. If we're aiding all poor unbiasedly then if a given race comprises most of the poor they will get most of the aid as a matter of course. I believe in aid for the poor for the reason of fighting poverty, not fighting racism.

[Daniel]

Last time I checked Welfare, the Pell Grant, and plenty of other large programs weren't race specific. Yet, they get shot down because they help minority people.

I think there are two issues here. One is to help poor, and one is to over come inequities. I think the two are linked for the reasons above. However, that doesn't mean I'm against helping poor people, in general.

It's one of the reasons I have the views I have on immigration..despite not being hispanic.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Yey for Wikipedia. India isn't that hard to miss on a map, whether or not it's a Peterson. Jesus.


What skills are required for being better at conquering? Why were Europeans resistant to contagions that killed Indians (Hint: towns and cities). What skills are needed to run towns and cities? Did American Indians have any of these?

Yes. And it made Pizarro angry. Seriously though, you are this close <--> to transcending cultural/skill supremacy into White supremacy. You can hide behind it just like I can hide behind saying, "They lingered long enough to inspire guilt in modern day populations." It's as retarded and ignorant, I really don't care what anyone says otherwise. We're not talking about giving Palestine/Israel back to the fucking Philistines, here. This is still something very much a contemporary issue and using that argument is a great way to Sieg Heil your way back to the 40s.

[Drew]

I don't believe in white supremacy (more like cold weather supremacy, but that's a theory for a different day), but I do believe in progress. I don't care who is winning and I don't blame the Mongols for conquering most of the known world just like I don't blame Europeans for conquering the Americas. Your responsibility as a genetic human is to ensure the survival of your descendants as best you can, Mongols and Europeans win at that, Indians and Scythians fail.

[Warriorbird]

Morality totally plays no part in it? Evolutionary biology sans ethics.

That's taking ethnocentrism to the extreme as hard as some liberals take cultural relativism.

You have to strike something of a middle ground or you're a monster on either side.

[Stanley Burrell]

I don't believe in white supremacy (more like cold weather supremacy, but that's a theory for a different day), but I do believe in progress. I don't care who is winning and I don't blame the Mongols for conquering most of the known world just like I don't blame Europeans for conquering the Americas. Your responsibility as a genetic human is to ensure the survival of your descendants as best you can, Mongols and Europeans win at that, Indians and Scythians fail.

Every offshoot of our genetic development that culminates itself under the evolution of the human brain brings about every counterargument possible. We use the same mechanism of passing our genes on to further generations to have this exact same argument.

Edited to add: Our discussion/argument/disagreement/agreement/etc., right now, pertaining to this. Our cultural refining of more-advanced bookkeeping is causing a voice of dissent to emerge! It's a recessive allele, obviously.

[Jesuit]

I don't believe in white supremacy (more like cold weather supremacy, but that's a theory for a different day), but I do believe in progress. I don't care who is winning and I don't blame the Mongols for conquering most of the known world just like I don't blame Europeans for conquering the Americas. Your responsibility as a genetic human is to ensure the survival of your descendants as best you can, Mongols and Europeans win at that, Indians and Scythians fail.

I don't believe in any type of supremacy, people need to learn to work together whether they're white, black or purple. If we all don't work together nobody is getting anywhere. Blaming a specific group for racism isn't helping anyone. People just need to realize it's a two-way street.

[Stanley Burrell]

I don't believe in any type of supremacy, people need to learn to work together whether they're white, black or purple. If we all don't work together nobody is getting anywhere. Blaming a specific group for racism isn't helping anyone. People just need to realize it's a two-way street.

Well, if it's racism that can be used to advance ourselves in Stage III Mercantilism, then it's hunky dorey.

[Drew]

Morality totally plays no part in it? Evolutionary biology sans ethics.

That's taking ethnocentrism to the extreme as hard as some liberals take cultural relativism.

You have to strike something of a middle ground or you're a monster on either side.



Well put it this way, Indians require 2 sq miles of land per person to live, Europeans require .2 sq miles per person (these are arbitrary numbers, but Indians did need much more land per person to survive). Given that there is a limited amount of land in North America, assuming you offer to integrate Indians into your society and those that refuse will war with you to keep their land, how much land should they be allowed to keep and how much land should more efficient Europeans get?

[Stanley Burrell]

assuming you offer to integrate Indians into your society and those that refuse will war with you to keep their land

Aye, there's the rub. Fortunately, it's an assumption.

[Drew]

Aye, there's the rub. Fortunately, it's an assumption.

This is out of the goodness of your heart and is certainly not required, I was just offering to assuage WB's conscience while pointing out that even that doesn't solve the problem.

[Clove]

Last time I checked Welfare, the Pell Grant, and plenty of other large programs weren't race specific. Yet, they get shot down because they help minority people. You won't catch me shooting down effective, efficeint poverty relief programs and certainly not because they help minorities. Do you really believe that those that oppose such programs do so out of racist motivations?
I think there are two issues here. One is to help poor, and one is to over come inequities.I agree whole heartedly, and I think if you target poverty you will help the poor and address the inequities of minorities with disproportionate poverty levels. Race doesn't need to be addressed at all, poverty does.

[TheEschaton]

You think social issues of race would be eased by addressing economic issues of poverty? I'm not sure I agree.

[Daniel]

You won't catch me shooting down effective, efficeint poverty relief programs and certainly not because they help minorities. Do you really believe that those that oppose such programs do so out of racist motivations?

As a whole? No.

But I believe that some of them do.

Start a thread about welfare and see how long it takes for a person like PB to make an antecdote about people on welfare having big shiny cars with rims as a way to dismiss the concept.




I agree whole heartedly, and I think if you target poverty you will help the poor and address the inequities of minorities with disproportionate poverty levels. Race doesn't need to be addressed at all, poverty does.

Well, I kind of disagree with that. I think race is still a problem in America, and I think that links into issues of poverty. In an ideal world, no, you wouldn't have to address race.

However, that implies that there aren't things that are negatively effecting the social and economic success of particular races. Such things as funding for schools, and sentencing disparities have a direct impact on the economic well being of those effected and cut across racial lines (for the most part).


For the record, I don't support affirmative action, nor do I support reparations. I just simply support the recognition that that are disproportionate racial disparities in this country. For me it starts with education.

You give me the same opportunities to learn and acquire the skills I need to get ahead and I'm cool. I don't need anything else. However, the problem is that that is such far from being a reality that it's not even funny (and that's not to say that we haven't come a ridiculously long way either).

So, having said that. Lemme save SHM and PB the time and admit that if that means I'm racist then so be it.

[Clove]

I don't disagree that racism exists.

I wouldn't doubt that Daniel has faced unfair behavior based on race. However, having the opportunities of a middle class American, his race hasn't seemed to have impaired his progress.

I disagree with poverty programs that focus on a group of poor rather aiding the poor generally. I also think this exacerbates racial tension. Imagine being poor and not a member of any particular protected class and listening to a dialogue about how much harder everyone needs to work to help such and such poor (of which you don't belong)? Do you expect the realization that most other people like you aren't poor is any consolation?

[Kembal]

Well put it this way, Indians require 2 sq miles of land per person to live, Europeans require .2 sq miles per person (these are arbitrary numbers, but Indians did need much more land per person to survive). Given that there is a limited amount of land in North America, assuming you offer to integrate Indians into your society and those that refuse will war with you to keep their land, how much land should they be allowed to keep and how much land should more efficient Europeans get?

Can you seriously call them Native Americans or anything else already? They're not from India, and thus they are not Indians.

[Keller]

If we're going to help the poor we need to help ALL poor equally, I don't believe in an extra focus based on race, simply because one race may be comprised of more poor. If we're aiding all poor unbiasedly then if a given race comprises most of the poor they will get most of the aid as a matter of course. I believe in aid for the poor for the reason of fighting poverty, not fighting racism.

I couldn't articulate it better.

The problem is that some people, generally fiscal conservatives, decry any help to the poor as an entitlement program or more pejoritavely "handouts". Justifying entitlement programs as a moral necessity is then done through the lens of institutionalized racism. That's not because racism is a superior cause -- but because it shows that the combination of 1-4* led to the social conditions that create a moral obligation to help blacks in America. Note, help does NOT mean the current welfare system. The first and possibly most important thing we can do to "help" is to increase funding to all schools and in particular underfunded school districts. Further, provide high schools and public universities with public endowments to provide (or at the least subsidize) SAT/GMAT/LSAT/etc prep classes.)

* [(1) all of the wealth in this country before 1865 was subsidized with free labor; (2) not only was the labor free -- but in order to control the majority of the population in the southern US education was forbidden and punishable by death; (3) after this 270 year period of enslavement, the super-majority of an entire race was then systemically excluded from the dominant economy (meaning -- the one with all of the subsidized capital) for arguably the next 100 years]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I couldn't articulate it better.

The problem is that some people, generally fiscal conservatives, decry any help to the poor as an entitlement program or more pejoritavely "handouts". Justifying entitlement programs as a moral necessity is then done through the lens of institutionalized racism. That's not because racism is a superior cause -- but because it shows that the combination of 1-4* led to the social conditions that create a moral obligation to help blacks in America. Note, help does NOT mean the current welfare system. The first and possibly most important thing we can do to "help" is to increase funding to all schools and in particular underfunded school districts. Further, provide high schools and public universities with public endowments to provide (or at the least subsidize) SAT/GMAT/LSAT/etc prep classes.)

* [(1) all of the wealth in this country before 1865 was subsidized with free labor; (2) not only was the labor free -- but in order to control the majority of the population in the southern US education was forbidden and punishable by death; (3) after this 270 year period of enslavement, the super-majority of an entire race was then systemically excluded from the dominant economy (meaning -- the one with all of the subsidized capital) for arguably the next 100 years]

I'd agree with most of what you said. I have differing viewpoints on 1-4, but that is irrelevant to the funding of schools in my mind. I'd love to be able to say America has the best public education system in the world, bar none.

I don't think we need to provide or subsidize the tests, as a good system would essentially provide that already. The education should be the prep for the testing, is what I mean, not provide a class that helps you to pass them. Provide a lifetime of education that you apply to pass them. Hope that makes sense.

FWIW, I'm a "fiscal conservative", but I'd vote to spend lots of dollars on our education systems.

[Gan]

FWIW, I'm a "fiscal conservative", but I'd vote to spend lots of dollars on our education systems.

/agreed.

As long as there's some accountability included in the management of said educational systems.

[Gan]

Start a thread about welfare and see how long it takes for a person like PB to make an antecdote about people on welfare having big shiny cars with rims as a way to dismiss the concept.
Living in the area where I live, thats something one will see from time to time. Is it the norm? No, but it exists. Is it isolated to black people? No, I've seen it with Mexicans and with Whites. I've never seen it with Asian people. Is it a reason to discount or stifle dialogue? No to that too.



Well, I kind of disagree with that. I think race is still a problem in America, and I think that links into issues of poverty. In an ideal world, no, you wouldn't have to address race.
Where do you think the racial treatment comes from? And is it something that can be addressed specifically?



For the record, I don't support affirmative action, nor do I support reparations. I just simply support the recognition that that are disproportionate racial disparities in this country. For me it starts with education.
This ties in with the previous question. The reason why I ask is that living in Houston I dont see a lot of racially focused programs designed to disadvantage one culture/race over another. Even in Texas... Is Chicago that different considering its very simliar in size and scope?


PS.


I don't disagree that racism exists.

I wouldn't doubt that Daniel has faced unfair behavior based on race. However, having the opportunities of a middle class American, his race hasn't seemed to have impaired his progress.

I disagree with poverty programs that focus on a group of poor rather aiding the poor generally. I also think this exacerbates racial tension. Imagine being poor and not a member of any particular protected class and listening to a dialogue about how much harder everyone needs to work to help such and such poor (of which you don't belong)? Do you expect the realization that most other people like you aren't poor is any consolation?
Excellent post.

[Drew]

Can you seriously call them Native Americans or anything else already? They're not from India, and thus they are not Indians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

I've already linked this before, but you might do well to read it.

[Seran]

1) Move out of the 'hoods' and 'ghettos' of the largest cities, rent is just as cheap, if not cheaper than alot of these places in Watts, Inglewood, Compton, and Oakland.

2) Rid yourself of the illusion that reparations will ever occur, or were even due in the first place. We're sorry, and oh by the way, here's a month every year where we remind you just how sorry we are. This also goes for any entitlements you *feel are owed to you because of your race.

3) Realize that the root of your so-called social inequalities are not due to any basis in reality, but the brainwashing of community leaders and organizations who have nothing in mind but their own continued funding and power.

4) Teach your children that they key to success is education, and not criminal activities.

5) Realize that if you can barely afford to feed, cloth and house yourself, that it's probably not a good idea to have children. (Key: Having yet more children will not correct this imbalance without committing willful neglect.)

6) If you fail to see any of the above as relevant to your hatred, and more important; self loathing, feel free to stop convincing others they should feel the same way. Ignorance is not bliss.

[Back]

How is what she said different than what Wright said? Is Condi a (gasp) racist?

[Clove]

How is what she said different than what Wright said? Is Condi a (gasp) racist?And the thread has been officially "Backlashed" (a fate worse than Godwining).

[Keller]

1) Move out of the 'hoods' and 'ghettos' of the largest cities, rent is just as cheap, if not cheaper than alot of these places in Watts, Inglewood, Compton, and Oakland.

2) Rid yourself of the illusion that reparations will ever occur, or were even due in the first place. We're sorry, and oh by the way, here's a month every year where we remind you just how sorry we are. This also goes for any entitlements you *feel are owed to you because of your race.

3) Realize that the root of your so-called social inequalities are not due to any basis in reality, but the brainwashing of community leaders and organizations who have nothing in mind but their own continued funding and power.

4) Teach your children that they key to success is education, and not criminal activities.

5) Realize that if you can barely afford to feed, cloth and house yourself, that it's probably not a good idea to have children. (Key: Having yet more children will not correct this imbalance without committing willful neglect.)

6) If you fail to see any of the above as relevant to your hatred, and more important; self loathing, feel free to stop convincing others they should feel the same way. Ignorance is not bliss.

Lol, that's funny. I almost thought this post was serious.

[Back]

And the thread has been officially "Backlashed" (a fate worse than Godwining).

I could take that as an inadvertent compliment but unless you actually deconstruct the comment with a better argument I’ll just take it as “not terribly funny” again.

[Clove]

I could take that as an inadvertent compliment but unless you actually deconstruct the comment with a better argument I’ll just take it as “not terribly funny” again.Take it however your bizarre little mind likes. It wasn't directed to you (for your entertainment or enlightenment) it was directed at you.

[Back]

le crie :(

[Daniel]

3) Realize that the root of your so-called social inequalities are not due to any basis in reality, but the brainwashing of community leaders and organizations who have nothing in mind but their own continued funding and power.



I mean really?

So, when my grandmother moved to the hood in chicago because her father was killed by the Klan in Mississippi..She was just making that up? Somehow Jesse Jackson brainwashed her into thinking that that whole thing was false?

Right buddy.

GTFO

[Daniel]

Living in the area where I live, thats something one will see from time to time. Is it the norm? No, but it exists. Is it isolated to black people? No, I've seen it with Mexicans and with Whites. I've never seen it with Asian people. Is it a reason to discount or stifle dialogue? No to that too.


Where do you think the racial treatment comes from? And is it something that can be addressed specifically?


This ties in with the previous question. The reason why I ask is that living in Houston I dont see a lot of racially focused programs designed to disadvantage one culture/race over another. Even in Texas... Is Chicago that different considering its very simliar in size and scope?


PS.

Excellent post.

I'll be honest here. The south is far ahead of the north when it comes to racial integration that it's not even funny. It didn't even sink in for me until I was visiting a friend of mine in Rural oklahoma. We went to a high school football game and people were 100% integrated. I was amazed. Literally Amazed, because that shit just doesn't happen in Chicago.

To answer your first question. I think that there are some things that can be addressed specifically towards minorities. 7 to 1 sentencing disparities is a huge one. There are a couple of others, but in general I'm inclined to agree with Clove in that if you address basic issues of poverty you'll address a lot of the problems of the minority populations.





I don't disagree that racism exists.

I wouldn't doubt that Daniel has faced unfair behavior based on race. However, having the opportunities of a middle class American, his race hasn't seemed to have impaired his progress.

I disagree with poverty programs that focus on a group of poor rather aiding the poor generally. I also think this exacerbates racial tension. Imagine being poor and not a member of any particular protected class and listening to a dialogue about how much harder everyone needs to work to help such and such poor (of which you don't belong)? Do you expect the realization that most other people like you aren't poor is any consolation?

I think the issue needs to be of specifics then. I'm not simply talking about programs that target poor blacks. I'm talking about problems that target issues that exacerbate the problem or issues that persist today.

For instance, the 7 to 1 sentencing disparity is a HUGE problem in the black community on two levels. On one it keeps people out of jail. Some people would argue that you're simply putting criminals out on the streets, and although this may be technically correct, I'd argue that giving people a second chance instead of turning them into career criminals is something that needs to be done. On the other level, I think it goes a long way in demonstrating that the system is *not* out to get you. You can say otherwise, but the reality is different.

I was having this discussion last night with a good friend of mine whose boyfriend is fucking up. It's hard to keep going when everything around you says that you have no place to go.The closest I've ever come to overt racial discrimination was when I was in the Army and I had a 1sg trying to do everything in his power to fuck me over. This went on for years, and luckily I'm such a hard headed motherfucker that I wouldn't let that happen. I'm good now. All grace be due to god, but the fact is I shouldn't have to put my head down and barrel through life..hoping that I make it through.

I won't sit here and tell you that only black people or hispanic people have to do this, but I won't act like it's some fabricated reality. It's hard when you walk into a classroom\office\wherever and you're the *only* person of your particular ethnicity, especially when you know you have people like Seran who believe that kind of bullshit and are just waiting on you to fail.

[Seran]

So, when my grandmother moved to the hood in chicago because her father was killed by the Klan in Mississippi..She was just making that up? Somehow Jesse Jackson brainwashed her into thinking that that whole thing was false?


Physical violence as a result of domestic terrorism like the Klan are a thing of fifty years ago. We have nowhere near the number of cases going on as there was when she was a child.

No one twisted your grandmothers arm to move to the 'hood' or even to Chicago, perhaps she should have moved to one of the hundreds of other cities between Mississippi and Illinois. Her ignorance is nothing but her own fault.

[Lyonis]

Physical violence as a result of domestic terrorism like the Klan are a thing of fifty years ago. We have nowhere near the number of cases going on as there was when she was a child.


Glad you admit stuff like that is still occurring.



No one twisted your grandmothers arm to move to the 'hood' or even to Chicago

Except that she was a victim of what you described as "domestic terrorism". Sounds like an arm twister to me!



perhaps she should have moved to one of the hundreds of other cities between Mississippi and Illinois.


Obviously this is a problem unique to Chicago.



Her ignorance is nothing but her own fault.

Woosh?

[Seran]

Unique to Chicago or not, you cannot deny the fact she could have went elsewhere in the first place, or even left since then before her second generation grandchild decided to spew on these boards.

[Lyonis]

Unique to Chicago or not, you cannot deny the fact she could have went elsewhere in the first place

The fact that racism is not unique to Chicago means that her move to escape "domestic terrorism" might not have mattered so much in the grand scheme of things. I'm not surprised this point eludes you.



or even left since then before her second generation grandchild decided to spew on these boards.

Second generation grandchild? Redundant much? Again, I'm not surprised if this misses you.

After all, he could be a beacon of white glory, such as yourself, and enlighten us with racist, ignorant bullshit

In case the sarcasm is overwhelming I'll make it clear, you are fucking stupid.

[Methais]

I love when a rich black person talks about how blacks aren't given opportunities.

[Lyonis]

I love when a rich black person talks about how blacks aren't given opportunities.

I love when people talk about things that don't directly impact them. See what I did there?

[Seran]

It's a message board, if you wanna cry how the white-man keeps you down, go talk to someone who cares.

Most of us don't.

[Back]

Been reading about whispers of Condi as a possible running mate for McCain. Seems to me that would be a tough combination to beat no matter who gets nominated on the democratic side.

[Daniel]

I think that would about guarantee that no democrat will cross over to vote for McCain which is kinda what he'll need to win (against obama).

[Back]

Thats an interesting take... but it could also go the other way. McCain might need to stop republicans from crossing the lines to win.

Ah politics. Today is today and tomorrow is tomorrow.

[Lyonis]

It's a message board, if you wanna cry how the white-man keeps you down, go talk to someone who cares.

Most of us don't.

1. I'm white
2. You came into this conversation by your own free will, choosing to leave is a matter of the same.
3. You don't care but you keep replying, hypocrite much?
4.
you are fucking stupid.


Been reading about whispers of Condi as a possible running mate for McCain. Seems to me that would be a tough combination to beat no matter who gets nominated on the democratic side.

That might be McCain's best shot at beating Obama, now if Hilary somehow snakes the nomination, it's lights out DNC imo.

[Keller]

It's come to my attention that you weren't kidding when you posted this. So I'd like to take a minute to discuss each of these insights with you.


1) Move out of the 'hoods' and 'ghettos' of the largest cities, rent is just as cheap, if not cheaper than alot of these places in Watts, Inglewood, Compton, and Oakland.

After 270 years of slavery and 60 additional years of being universally excluded from the "game" of capital formation in the South, former slaves and their progeny moved from the South to northern cities. They formed communities, not by choice, but because they were systematically denied the right to move into white communities. If somehow they found a mortgage and a willing seller to move into a white neighborhood, they often faced intimidation from neighbors who opposed a black moving onto their block.

Now, you righteously declare that these people need to move from their family home, incurring great financial and emotional cost, because that will help them? Why kind of gerry-rigged solution is that? "I know you're broke and all, but maybe if you abandonded your entire support system and moved all your shit across town life'll improve for you. I didn't grow up in a ghetto, and look how I turned out!"




2) Rid yourself of the illusion that reparations will ever occur, or were even due in the first place. We're sorry, and oh by the way, here's a month every year where we remind you just how sorry we are. This also goes for any entitlements you *feel are owed to you because of your race.

You're the first person in this thread who mentioned reparations.

Were reparations due? Hell yes. I'd love to hear your argument why nothing is owed to a laborer whose labor value has been appropriated to the master. Think about if that happened today. Would the laborer, regardless of the laws of the time, have a moral right to the fare market value of his labor?

Are reparations even relevant anymore? No. The wealth of slavery has dilluted and dissipated from the southern plantation owners. Further, few records of who owned what slaves remain. Without direct correlation betwen the family that owns the ill-begotten capital and the family whose ancestors' capital rights were appropriated, any type of reparations would suddenly lose the fairness rationale.

Reparations are not about taking from whites and giving to blacks. It's about taking from those who stole labor and giving the same to those whose labor was stolen. The appropriate time for that transfer has long passed.

But I'm sure blacks appriciate your sincere apology month. Seriously, how dumb do you have to be to say something like "Black History month is a concession to blacks to remind them we're sorry for slavery."



3) Realize that the root of your so-called social inequalities are not due to any basis in reality, but the brainwashing of community leaders and organizations who have nothing in mind but their own continued funding and power.

I really don't even know where to begin here. I'm not sure I have the will to even craft an answer to this post because it would be entirely too long and the very fact that you'd sincerely post something like this leads me to believe you're a permanant bigot.

But I will give you general writting advice. When you're making an argument, especially one that is so out-of-touch with reality that you patronize the existence of institutional racism/classism, don't say "are not due to any basis in reality." The use of exaggerated hyperbole (sic, it's for effect) weakens your point because the reader can tell you're making too great a claim.



4) Teach your children that they key to success is education, and not criminal activities.

(1) I can't imagine parents are actively counseling their children to engage in criminal activities.

(2) Even if they did, absent educational opportunities, what else is there? The solution is to provide educational opportunity, not imagine things will magically get better if parents all emphasize the importance of education.


5) Realize that if you can barely afford to feed, cloth and house yourself, that it's probably not a good idea to have children. (Key: Having yet more children will not correct this imbalance without committing willful neglect.)

How about we fight a major constituency in this country that hinders the promulgation of sex education? How about we provide accessable and affordable abortions for those who the woefully underfunded sexual education programs fail?

I'm not denying that some people make poor decisions with regard to family planning -- but your solution is rather ignorant and one-sided.



6) If you fail to see any of the above as relevant to your hatred, and more important; self loathing, feel free to stop convincing others they should feel the same way. Ignorance is not bliss.

I'm not sure what your thought here means. If I don't agree with you I should shut up? That's a pretty fucking convoluted and confused way of communicating a rather simple message. Come back when you want to actually talk about some of these issues instead of listing a rediculous list of "solutions" and tell the rest of us to take it or leave it.

[Kembal]

That might be McCain's best shot at beating Obama, now if Hilary somehow snakes the nomination, it's lights out DNC imo.

That's assuming voters strictly vote on the basis of identity politics. I think any possible cross-over voter is going to look at her record and realize she was supremely ineffective as the National Security Advisor, and only slightly less ineffective as the Secretary of State.

[Daniel]

Heh. I haven't met a lot of people impressed with condi in my day to day activities.

[Lyonis]

After 270 years of slavery and 60 additional years of being universally excluded from the "game" of capital formation in the South, former slaves and their progeny moved from the South to northern cities. They formed communities, not by choice, but because they were systematically denied the right to move into white communities. If somehow they found a mortgage and a willing seller to move into a white neighborhood, they often faced intimidation from neighbors who opposed a black moving onto their block.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CztiIhCv5Ko

Not sure if you've seen it, but that's the first part of the HBO documentary "Bastards of the Party"(the whole movie is available on Youtube) that goes from blacks moving from the south to a more "progressive" city and how that transformed in to our modern day ghetto in Los Angeles. I imagine the story isn't much different in other cities, they just don't have cool rappers so it might not be as famous.

Why I think Condi's emphasis on blacks is relevant is that they were part of the original settlers to America yet they were part of the last to get a seat at the table. Every other example of immigrants being treated in the same manner as blacks, which is certainly arguable even occurred on the same magnitude, has a later start, and if they were white, a much quicker resolution.

This is not to say that a poor black is at a greater disadvantage than a poor white today, because I don't believe that. I just believe that it is understandable why this disadvantage is more prevalent amongst blacks.



Now, you righteously declare that these people need to move from their family home, incurring great financial and emotional cost, because that will help them? Why kind of gerry-rigged solution is that? "I know you're broke and all, but maybe if you abandonded your entire support system and moved all your shit across town life'll improve for you.

Could you imagine if you asked Seran to move away from his family limiting his ability to fuck his sister? I shudder when I think of the outcry.

[Lyonis]

That's assuming voters strictly vote on the basis of identity politics.


Winner! :)

I would hope that most don't but there are certainly exceptions. With the race so close in a lot of states this last Presidential election, I've wondered the impact of those that voted for Bush because his daughters were hotter.



I think any possible cross-over voter is going to look at her record and realize she was supremely ineffective as the National Security Advisor, and only slightly less ineffective as the Secretary of State.

I certainly believe that image carries a lot of weight in politics. I don't think there's much question that Kerry was a more intelligent candidate but somehow Bush pulled it off. Granted, you have the people that are going to vote for an R or D regardless if a cartoon was on the ballot. On the same note you'll have people that will vote for a woman, or a person of a certain race, if given that shot.

How much those numbers will weigh in this November? :popcorn:

[Parkbandit]

Heh. I haven't met a lot of people impressed with condi in my day to day activities.

You should actually read up on her life then. Just because you don't agree with her politics, you shouldn't just dismiss her.

Here's a quick link.. there's probably more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice

[Gan]

I threw out that idea in a conversation in the office about a month ago. Having Condi on the ticket sure would eliminate the option of pure racial or vajayjay voting.

Unfortunately she's a polarizing figure (as if McCain isnt at times). Smart, very smart, but polarizing.

[Daniel]

What does that have to do with anything I just said?

l2read

[Parkbandit]

What does that have to do with anything I just said?

l2read


My apologies... continue to plod through life in your ignorance.

[Daniel]

Do you even know what you are talking about? In anything?

[Clove]

http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-dog-pictures-interacial-dogs-porch.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Do you even know what you are talking about? In anything?

Are you even able to comprehend English? You usually have trouble in most topics.. maybe it's a learning disability. You should get yourself checked you.

[Daniel]

Funny. It appears that it's you that didn't understand what was said.

Go back..reread what I said..slowly.. and try again.

[Parkbandit]

Funny. It appears that it's you that didn't understand what was said.

Go back..reread what I said..slowly.. and try again.

Are you "lik 100% positive" about this? Sounded to me like the people you talk to on a daily basis are not impressed with Condi.. and you agree with them.

Enlighten me though on what you really meant.

[Daniel]

And who would I be talking to on a daily basis? Come on..follow through..follow through..

Maybe you'll be able to follow a logical progression yet.

One can only hope.

[Lyonis]

You should actually read up on her life then. Just because you don't agree with her politics, you shouldn't just dismiss her.

Here's a quick link.. there's probably more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice

A really interesting read and I'm more than slightly impressed. A masters at 20 coming from Birmingham in the Jim Crow era? Hats off, that's a bad broad.

Best part of the whole biography...

"My father joined our party because the Democrats in Jim Crow Alabama of 1952 would not register him to vote. The Republicans did."

Oops?

[Methais]

I love when people talk about things that don't directly impact them. See what I did there?

You mean like this entire crybaby thread? All this thread is missing is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jacksoff.

[Warriorbird]

Methais I understand you believe that you know the black experience... but...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/236/453349460_298e9cb9d5.jpg

[Keller]

You mean like this entire crybaby thread? All this thread is missing is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jacksoff.

Or one fewer hopelessly bigotted douchebag.

Crybaby thread? Have you even read through it? The most "crybaby" posts have come from Seran.

[Methais]

Or one fewer hopelessly bigotted douchebag.

Crybaby thread? Have you even read through it? The most "crybaby" posts have come from Seran.

Bigotted douchebag? How about just tired of hearing blacks whine and cry, especially with the double standard most of them have?

The crybaby shit came with the OP, as Condie Rice, a rich black woman who holds a high political position, sits there complaining about blacks not getting opportunities. If blacks got no opportunities, why does she have the job (and money) she has, instead of living in the projects ready to pop out her 8th kid and then go on Maury Povich for DNA tests for her 7th kid Laqueishacalrissian, because although this is the sixth guy to be tested, she KNOWS this one is the father for sure.

If anyone has something to be bitter about, it's the Indians. Instead of enslaving them, we just took all their land and exterminated them for the most part. 60 million down to 800,000 at one point. Casinos aren't going to replace that. And if you gave casinos to blacks (or record labels or a lifetime supply of gold plated spinner rims or whatever the hell it is they want), they'd still bitch and whine about slavery they weren't a part of.

Go ahead and call me racist though if it'll make your chitlins taste better. Any white person with an opinion about non-whites is automatically racist these days.

Here's something to chew on: What would blacks be doing today if there never was slavery? Probably sitting in the background during one of those "30 cents a day can save this starving African family" commercials.

[Seran]

Here's something to chew on: What would blacks be doing today if there never was slavery? Probably sitting in the background during one of those "30 cents a day can save this starving African family" commercials.

Win.

[Warriorbird]

Methais and Seran were born as poor black children in Mississippi.

http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/9/3099-large.jpg

[Keller]

Maybe we should repeal the 14th amendment and help more Africans and our economy at the same time!

What a fucking joke. Notice Seran showed up to support that half-fucking-brained justification.

Read up on the extraordinary effort Condi has put into being as successful as she is. Then compare her biography to other high-ranking members of this or previous presidential cabinents.

Further, it's telling how your characterize Condi's other option. Is it possible that there are poor people who don't have 8 kids by 6 different fathers? I think you need to stop watching Jerry Springer because it's obviously impacting your ability to think rationally about this subject.

[Methais]

I think you need to stop watching Jerry Springer because it's obviously impacting your ability to think rationally about this subject.

I just call it like I see it. And yes I see shit like this fairly often...in person, not on TV. Besides, you only see white trash tranny cheaters on Springer. The mystery dad whores go to Maury.

To be fair though, I think it's probably far worse in the south than in "normal" parts of the country. When I'm in Massachusetts visiting family or whatever, most of the blacks there seem like normal intelligent people. Then when I come back down here I want to vomit.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate black people at all. But being white and having an opinion about minorities automatically makes you racist so it's lose-lose anyway.

http://gallery.allinthefamilysit.com/albums/userpics/10001/carroll%20as%20archie%20bunker.jpg

[Parkbandit]

And who would I be talking to on a daily basis? Come on..follow through..follow through..

Maybe you'll be able to follow a logical progression yet.

One can only hope.


How the fuck would I know who you talk to on a daily basis? All I know is you have 10x the responsibility of me and make 10x as much as I do.. let me guess.. CEOs?

Who the fuck cares? What difference does it make if you are talking to poor black people all day or rich white people all day? If you aren't impressed with Condoleeza Rice by her bio.. then you are just dumb as a box of rocks and I have no use for you. Stop letting your political prejudice cloud whatever is left of your good judgement.

[Warriorbird]

So... you just hate the South?

Dig that hole.

Mind you... I find black people and white people in Baton Rouge TOTALLY paranoid of each other to a ridiculous degree. I think it reflects badly on the area versus the whole South.

[Parkbandit]

So... you just hate the South?

:shakes head:

Dig that hole, Methais.


The only one digging a hole is you. Nice leap you made there. Clearly, Methais must hate every single individual south of the Mason Dixon line. A stupid conclusion.. but then again, it is you.

[Warriorbird]

Nah. It was more a commentary on living here yet calling the rest of the country normal. Given your stellar tracking record on talking positively about black people I see you leaping to his defense.

When are you starting your retirement home klavern?

[Seran]

Do yourself a favor, and look at the chief countries in which the principle number of slaves came from before you go on another tirade of ignorance Keller.

Truth be told, it's not so off-base to consider the opportunities and freedom's given to current day African Americans when you consider a good number of West African countries are still broiled in war and genecide. One cannot use this as a justification for slavery, which was a horrible thing, but it's better than being conscripted into a war at the age of twelve.

An interesting read that'll likely get flamed to hell is entitled "Ten Reasons Why Reparations For Blacks Is A Bad Idea".

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics/browse_thread/thread/10b2525e84194c92/2685aeb6580d0070%232685aeb6580d0070

[Parkbandit]

Nah. It was more a commentary on living here yet calling the rest of the country normal. Given your stellar tracking record on talking positively about black people I see you leaping to his defense.

When are you starting your retirement home klavern?

It was more of a stupid conclusion from a stupid person.

More of the same ol' same ol' from you though.

[Warriorbird]

Deep Thoughts from Parkbandit. Step your insult game up?

[Parkbandit]

Deep Thoughts from Parkbandit. Step your insult game up?


Who needs to step it up when you are still playing? Methais made an ignorant comment about blacks.. you made an equally ignorant comment about how he now hates all southern people. I called you out for being dumb.. you somehow jumped to another ignorant conclusion that it makes me a racist.

Let me know where you got lost dumbfuck.

[Keller]

Do yourself a favor, and look at the chief countries in which the principle number of slaves came from before you go on another tirade of ignorance Keller.

Truth be told, it's not so off-base to consider the opportunities and freedom's given to current day African Americans when you consider a good number of West African countries are still broiled in war and genecide. One cannot use this as a justification for slavery, which was a horrible thing, but it's better than being conscripted into a war at the age of twelve.

An interesting read that'll likely get flamed to hell is entitled "Ten Reasons Why Reparations For Blacks Is A Bad Idea".

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics/browse_thread/thread/10b2525e84194c92/2685aeb6580d0070%232685aeb6580d0070

Why don't you take my "tirade of ignorance" head-on? You've posted some stunningly stupid posts and I've deconstructed each of them without so much as a peep of a rebuttal. If you want to discuss the issues -- let's do it. But don't just come here with Aryan Brotherhood talking points and then say, "if you don't agree with me then stfu."

And, truth be told, I wont engage any discourse on the topic of "Slavery helped Africans avoid living in Africa" because it is perhaps the most circular argument you can possibly make. Ignoring completely the facial stupidity of the argument itself, it depends on circumstantial facts and the legacy of colonialism.

[Daniel]

How the fuck would I know who you talk to on a daily basis? All I know is you have 10x the responsibility of me and make 10x as much as I do.. let me guess.. CEOs?

Who the fuck cares? What difference does it make if you are talking to poor black people all day or rich white people all day? If you aren't impressed with Condoleeza Rice by her bio.. then you are just dumb as a box of rocks and I have no use for you. Stop letting your political prejudice cloud whatever is left of your good judgement.


/facepalm

[Daniel]

Here's something to chew on: What would blacks be doing today if there never was slavery? Probably sitting in the background during one of those "30 cents a day can save this starving African family" commercials.

Living in a country that is not dealing with the effects of being pillaged for it's most valuable commodity and hundreds of years of colonialism?

[Keller]

I just call it like I see it. And yes I see shit like this fairly often...in person, not on TV. Besides, you only see white trash tranny cheaters on Springer. The mystery dad whores go to Maury.

To be fair though, I think it's probably far worse in the south than in "normal" parts of the country. When I'm in Massachusetts visiting family or whatever, most of the blacks there seem like normal intelligent people. Then when I come back down here I want to vomit.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate black people at all. But being white and having an opinion about minorities automatically makes you racist so it's lose-lose anyway.

http://gallery.allinthefamilysit.com/albums/userpics/10001/carroll%20as%20archie%20bunker.jpg

I see your point. I think you need to distance your perception of blacks from the history. There is no white team or black team. Only an American team. And on the American team I find it unacceptable that a sub-group (poors, with a large ratio of total population to population under the poverty line, being black) be systematically denied equal opportunity. Like I've said before, we cure this through funding education. I think our current welfare system is misguided and sends inefficient signals to the recipients. You easily correct for this by requiring able-bodied/minded recipients to, at the very least, sit in a room and doodle for 40-hrs/wk to get their check. I'm rambling and need to stop.

[Back]

The A-Team! Sign me up, Kell.

I love it when a plan comes together.

[Keller]

The A-Team! Sign me up, Kell.

I love it when a plan comes together.


We're, uhhh, currently not accepting applications.

/flee!

[Methais]

B.A. Baracus is my 2nd favorite member of the A-Team, with Hannibal being the first cause he's just smooth.

Does that make me racist?

[Clove]

We're, uhhh, currently not accepting applications.

/flee!:rofl: Best decision ever.

[Gan]

We're, uhhh, currently not accepting applications.

/flee!


LOL





Denied.

:talktohand:

[TheEschaton]

"You don't have to live in West Africa" is the most LOL response I've ever heard to how black people should stop bitching.

[Warriorbird]

The poignancy of the Wright stuff helps illustrate that we're not in some perfect world. I think some look at sentencing for crimes (particularly possession) is warranted in addition to looking at welfare and education. I think disenfranchising people for drug offenses also encourages them not to participate in society... the Republicans'd never allow felons to vote though.

[Keller]

"You don't have to live in West Africa" is the most LOL response I've ever heard to how black people should stop bitching.

As a former semi-liberal, don't you see how black people should be grateful for their ghettos?

[TheEschaton]

WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING??? I'M SO ASHAMED!!!!

[Seran]

Now, you righteously declare that these people need to move from their family home, incurring great financial and emotional cost, because that will help them?

Does it not bear reasoning that a typical two parent household who see's their children suffering due to lack of education, negative social influences and the threat of death by the high levels of crime in their neighborhoods would sacrifice emotional cost for the well being of their offspring? Support system or no, if your environment is bad and not getting better, you leave it.

But to humor your whine about it being too difficult, consider this;

This same household, presuming their outlay for living expenses and utilities is excessive (40%-50% of income) would qualify for any number of state programs in the form of cash aid, food vouchers, utility assistance, and in most states state funded medical insurance.

On top of this, Section 8 through HUD is available in each and every county. Wait lists typically are a couple years in length, but upon approval once can expect to have their housing outlays to be reduced by 40-70 percent. Furthermore, most programs allow for the transfer of housing credits to anywhere else in a state after one year on the program.

Do I need to list any additional means in which to allow for exodus?


Are reparations even relevant anymore? No.

Agreed


How about we fight a major constituency in this country that hinders the promulgation of sex education? How about we provide accessable and affordable abortions for those who the woefully underfunded sexual education programs fail?

There was a time when sex education was not the duty of our schools, but the duties of the families themselves. If a parent cannot, or chooses not to inform their children of the consquences of teenaged births, or of the dangerous of sexually transmitted diseases, why make it the duty of our schools to override the choice of their guardians?

That being said, you will likely never have public sex education that doesn't change with the political winds. But, hether or not the ruling majority of the year believes in teaching about contraceptives, one cannot fail to realize that there are clinics in every neighborhood that can and will offer free condoms, and sometimes birth control.

Between marginal abstinance education in schools, the responsibilities of parents, and multitudes of clinics and familiy planning centers for young women, just what more hand holding is really necessary?


How about we provide accessable and affordable abortions for those who the woefully underfunded sexual education programs fail?

Barring what was said earlier about sexual education, I agree with you about affordable abortions. I would go a step further and simply say that they should be offered free of charge by the state. The cost savings on education alone would more than justify this service.

-----------

We're going to disagree further, and quite frankily I could care less about any further justifications or accusations on your part about my being a bigot. I don't agree with your assessment, and will point out that by and by any argument on the topic of race relations are going to be colored by personal feelings.

One side is always going to feel marginalized by the other.

[TheEschaton]

As for the access to HUD....do you know what richer neighborhoods do to fulfill their Section 8 housing requirements? They build jails, so they don't have to actually build projects.

Thus, they fulfill their housing requirements under federal law for low income housing, and the only low income people they have to have in their town are locked up behind bars.

Having worked as a homelessness advocate, your arguments would be fantastic, in theory. However, people do and can find all the loopholes to NOT have their property values driven down with the mixing of income disparaties. CF Yonkers in the early 80s.

-TheE-

[Warriorbird]

There's all sorts of games played to deny certain folks housing. There have been for a long time.

[Seran]

As for the access to HUD....do you know what richer neighborhoods do to fulfill their Section 8 housing requirements? They build jails, so they don't have to actually build projects.

I don't think it needs to be pointed out, but most rich neighborhoods are short on rentals in the first place, much less those who'll accept Section 8, which is optional.

However, having come from a family of six who was on the program, I can tell you that there are a very large number of property owners that do accept it. The biggest reason of course would be the timely payment of rents from the program itself.

Secondly, HUD mandates that yearly inspections occur which will allow for better monitoring of their properties. Sure, they will have to fix items that are not to code, but as this is a tax write off and truly an obligation for re-rent, it'll be done anyways.

[Daniel]

I'll be sure to go tell my grandmother to go back in time and take advantage of programs that didn't exist at the time. I'm sure she'll appreciate me saving her from her ignorance that Jim Crow and systemized marginalization was nothing more than a figment of her imagination.

[Daniel]

This same household, presuming their outlay for living expenses and utilities is excessive (40%-50% of income) would qualify for any number of state programs in the form of cash aid, food vouchers, utility assistance, and in most states state funded medical insurance.



Yea. So, these people will live hand to fist for a few decades and then maybe have the possibility of moving out to a different neighborhood. Hopefully they don't get sick, injured or have any events that jeopardize their ability to go to work for a day, let alone a week or longer.

In the interim, they are supposed to not have kids, or spend money on anything that brings enjoyment or take any sort of unnecessary risks. All the while, fiscal conservatives will do everything within their power to deny them access to these same programs in the name of maintaining a balanced budget. This goal that will be shelved when it's discovered that the United States needs a new laser to potentially counteract future Sudanese battleships.

Then one day their kids have the privledge of hearing about how they wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for the handouts that subsisted them through those trying times.

Sweet.

[Seran]

I'll be sure to go tell my grandmother to go back in time and take advantage of programs that didn't exist at the time. I'm sure she'll appreciate me saving her from her ignorance that Jim Crow and systemized marginalization was nothing more than a figment of her imagination.

I'm sorry Daniel, I thought it was fairly evident that I gave a rats ass about your grandmothers plight and instead focused on current choices and alternatives in my follow-up.


Yea. So, these people will live hand to fist for a few decades and then maybe have the possibility of moving out to a different neighborhood. Hopefully they don't get sick, injured or have any events that jeopardize their ability to go to work for a day, let alone a week or longer.

Disability insurance costs eight bucks a month, and pays large sums for even the most trivial of injuries and follow up care. So yes, by all means if you feel the source of their issues are their neighborhoods rather than personal choices, they should move.



In the interim, they are supposed to not have kids, or spend money on anything that brings enjoyment or take any sort of unnecessary risks.

Don't have kids, don't be frivolous, and learn to do without until you can afford to do live withint your own means. Yes, this makes sense.


Then one day their kids have the privledge of hearing about how they wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for the handouts that subsisted them through those trying times.

Better yet, their children learned from seeing these things taken place in their household take steps to not have to subsist on government handouts. Perhaps some encouragement from the parents, or taking advantage of the scads upon scads of low income college tuition waivers in order to make a living that will allow for a better future for themselves or their children.

But go on, throw some more excuses out there.

[Daniel]

I'm sorry Daniel, I thought it was fairly evident that I gave a rats ass about your grandmothers plight and instead focused on current choices and alternatives in my follow-up.


My grandmother doesn't really need you to care about her "plight". She knows more about being responsible and working for a living then you could ever hope to.

I was merely pointing out how full of shit your assertion was that the problems of the black community are not based on reality.



Disability insurance costs eight bucks a month, and pays large sums for even the most trivial of injuries and follow up care. So yes, by all means if you feel the source of their issues are their neighborhoods rather than personal choices, they should move.


Also, because it's easy. What country do you live in where disability insurance pays "large sums" of money?

At best it pays for a percentage of your pay and is largely unavailable to those are the lower income levels.


Don't have kids, don't be frivolous, and learn to do without until you can afford to do live withint your own means. Yes, this makes sense.

I agree completely. I've said since I was 10 years old that I'd die before I brought a child into this world without the means to take care of it. However, I did so with the luxury of the 14th amendment. Something that wasn't in existence when my father was my age.



Better yet, their children learned from seeing these things taken place in their household take steps to not have to subsist on government handouts.

Kinda blows your whole theory out of the water when you consider that the vast majority of the current African American generation does not live in a household where these things could be seen * because of* the systematic marginalization of a generation prior.

Funny how things that happen today correlate very heavily to the things that happened yesterday.

I especially appreciated your stipulation of a "Two parent family" earlier. Seeing as how America made a pretty deliberate, systematic and successful attempt at alienating the traditional family structure of African Americans.

[Warriorbird]

I just don't understand the downtrodden masses hating on the other downtrodden masses. We should be working on helping every American rather complaining that people aren't seeking opportunities of dubious self-damaging efficacy and that they have even more dubious knowledge of.

[Daniel]

But go on, throw some more excuses out there.

Oh..and yea. That's EXACTLY what SECRETARY of STATE Rice was doing: Making excuses for her failures.

plz. gtfo.

[Seran]

Oh..and yea. That's EXACTLY what SECRETARY of STATE Rice was doing: Making excuses for her failures.

Never said she was making excuses for her failures.

It was more like she, currently one of the highest ranking and most prominant members of the African American community was pulling out the race card to let us all know how difficult it is for everyone else.

I'm glad that she decided to speak out, it showed everyone the sort of inappropriate remarks and un-professionalism we can expect from her should someone be foolish enough to keep her in office.

I wonder if we can expect the same from Obama.

[Daniel]

So acknowledging disproportionate hardship = unprofessionalism?

Right.

Kinda like how Disability insurance pays out large sums of money?

Or do you want to make the claim that Rice doesn't have first hand experience in racial discrimination?

[Seran]

Kinda like how Disability insurance pays out large sums of money?

You make it a habit of spouting off about things you don't understand, which is probably why you're ignored for the most part.

Disability insurance pays on top of any qualified State disability, so in reality it's an added proptection for a very marginal cost to the individual. This goes hand in hand with Accident/Dismemberment policies which can also be purchased for a very small premium, and AD pays out immediately depending on the severity of the injury.

For instance, I twisted my knee in a fall and was given a post-visit note suggesting a knee-brace until the swelling went away. I was paid two hundred and fifty dollars for the accident, fifty for the doctor visit, and an additional hundred for the suggested ambulatory aide.

Four hundred dollars for an injury that resulted in no loss of work and discomfort. At the time, this was equal to a third of one of my paychecks, and for a minimum wage earner would be vastly greater for a fourteen dollar a moment premium.

Sorry for the sphiel folks, but I thought I'd educate the ignorant.

[Daniel]

I'm extremely happy that you were able to pocket some change from your minor fall.

However, I was not talking about injuries that result in no loss of work and discomfort. As I clearly specified in my original post.


Perhaps a remedial reading lesson is in order?

[Seran]

However, I was not talking about injuries that result in no loss of work and discomfort. As I clearly specified in my original post.

Or perhaps you should read the post I replied to in order to remembering your writing the following;


Kinda like how Disability insurance pays out large sums of money?

Perhaps it's not too late to put your forum training wheels back on.

[TheEschaton]

Seran is a fucking moron. Wow.

First - all communities are required to have a certain amount of low income housing, even rich communities. Like I said, those rich communities marginalize those communities, if they even have them, or find loopholes (like jails, which for some reason, count as "low income housing") to keep poor people out. Effectively, you cannot afford to live in one of these communities if you are below a certain income level, because THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT - retention of property value and their own personal wealth.

Secondly, you talk about benefits like they fall like manna from heaven. I've filled out those forms, waited in those lines at SSI, and let me tell you, it is not easy. You need to balance the fact that your family can't afford you not working for a day, the fact that it takes a few days to get your shit processed, and even longer if there's some sort of problem, like former convictions, or backlog in child support, or whatever. Disability benefits are routinely denied for very little reason, in fact, most benefits are routinely denied for no real reason other than the fact that it is LESS PROFITABLE for the companies involved in insuring people to accept all those claims.

People continue to wonder why I do not support privitization - as long as profit is the bottom line of anything - housing, benefits, insurance - real human need is tossed out the window, and things made infinitely harder, so that real people, struggling and barely hanging on, who can't afford to miss a day of work, cannot effectively get assistance if they needed it.

Time is a luxury most working poor do not have. If I work as a lawyer, I can leave for an hour or two to take care of personal business if I really have to, as long as my billables don't fall below a certain level or my trial preparation is still good. Other jobs aren't so lucky.

[Seran]

First - all communities are required to have a certain amount of low income housing, even rich communities. Like I said, those rich communities marginalize those communities, if they even have them, or find loopholes (like jails, which for some reason, count as "low income housing") to keep poor people out. Effectively, you cannot afford to live in one of these communities if you are below a certain income level, because THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT - retention of property value and their own personal wealth.

Define your scope of the word communities, as literally that can refer to a small hamlet, town, or city. In either case, is the zoning code your referring to Federal, State, or some backwater bylaw you've lived in at some point.

Furthermore, who the hell cares whether Johnny Richboy decides to donate towards a regional jail rather than having some affordable housing projects spring up down the street from his mansion.

If property values dictate that a single mother on SSI can't afford a home in Vail, Santa Barbara, or Manhattan, then she'll have to find a home within her means. There's plenty of beautiful homes all across the US affordable even to someone with a limited income.


Secondly, you talk about benefits like they fall like manna from heaven. I've filled out those forms, waited in those lines at SSI, and let me tell you, it is not easy.

There's a huge difference between private disability or accidental compensation insurance and the twelve month requirement for SSI, so learn the distinction before you open your trap.

But there's a reason why SSI is difficult to obtain, it's because every rehab failure, jail-bird, anxiety sufferer who wants to sit on their ass at home can get it. What do you need? A couple of concurring doctors, and a sleazy lawyer to help them out. I'm guessing you know all about this, probably helped a few out yourself for your 250 bucks an hour.

[Daniel]

Or perhaps you should read the post I replied to in order to remembering your writing the following;



Perhaps it's not too late to put your forum training wheels back on.

My question still stands. You getting a couple hundred of bucks is not the same as getting enough to support yourself if required to miss work.

Which of course was the point. Or did you think I had forgotten? Like you've somehow forgotten to respond to every other point made.

[Lilabell]

Pretty much. Not to mention the Native American slave trade was pretty short lived anyway due to the early settlers finding that it was much easier for them to run off into the wilderness, never to be found again. Europeans also believed Native Americans men to be culturally conditioned to be hunters, so they'd have a much harder time adapting to working in the field, which Native Americans considered a womans job. For these reasons and more Europeans perferred African slaves.

In any case, Native Americans owned black slaves of their own, but that hardly discounts the oppression their culture has endured since the forming of our country and the long lasting effects of the measures undertaken to displace them from their land.

Actually, native american slaves tended to sicken and die when enslaved those many years ago. This led to mass annihilation of the Native American by using such clever techniques as smallpox virus spread on blanket (Hey! Free Blankets to Injuns!) The African slave that survived transportation was much stronger and thus more higly valued for thier ability to work.

Addditionally, in general terms, Native Americans tended to embrace the slaves they took during warfare into thier community. You can compare it the way the African tribes took slaves. Typically, those slaves became loved ones and married into the families. So although slaves may have been taken during warfare, the entire slavery system was much different than the slavery system in place in America via the trade from Africa etc.

[Parkbandit]

I wonder what people's opinion of Seran would be if he were black...

[Clove]

Actually, native american slaves tended to sicken and die when enslaved those many years ago. Source?
This led to mass annihilation of the Native American by using such clever techniques as smallpox virus spread on blanket (Hey! Free Blankets to Injuns!)How did enslaving Native Americans lead to deliberately infecting Native Americans with small-pox?
Addditionally, in general terms, Native Americans tended to embrace the slaves they took during warfare into thier community...Whew, for a moment there I was worried that Native American's practice of slavery was wrong or something.

[Seran]

My question still stands. You getting a couple hundred of bucks is not the same as getting enough to support yourself if required to miss work.

Daniel is an unmarried twenty-eight year old oilfield worker with two kids ages 2 and 4, and a girlfriend who is twenty-one (yikes). Since he never graduated from highschool, he is employed as a rig hand for a small oil recovery company and makes only thirteen dollars an hour.

One weekend, Daniel in a drunken stupor falls down a flight of stairs and upon being checked in at the local County hospital, learns his leg was broken in two places and will need a cast. Being a rustabout, he has only minimal health insurance, and no vacation/sick time to offset eight weeks of time missed at work. Luckily enough, he was sober and purchased a disability policy, with an accident rider totalling fourteen dollars a month.

Normally during this period, Daniel will worked three hundred and twenty hours, at a miserable twelve dollars an hour.

320 * 12 = 3,840.

Subtracting six percent federal income tax due to his dependents, six and one half percent social security deduction, his take home is 3,379. Presuming his not a total moron, this is just enough to pay the bills, feed/cloth his children.

Being out of work for such a period, state disability kicks in after one week and pays 55% of his income. Since he purchased the additional insurance, Daniel is paid an additional 30% that stacks with state disability.Tthe leg break and subsequent xrays/crutches there is a one time pay out of eleven hundred dollars.

280 * 10.2 = 2,856 + 1,100 = 3,956

Since it is state disability, it is non-taxable, but the payout will be subject to the same 12.5 taxable rate when he files his taxes. His total pay will be 3,818.50 for the period.

The bill for the hospital of six hundred dollars will be paid over a twelve month period on a repayment plan the nice little county hospital offers for low wage earners.

----------

Daniel's going to have to go without his malt liquer for a while, but luckily enough it will only be his immediate family who has to suffer his withdrawls.

[Clove]

Addditionally, in general terms, Native Americans tended to embrace the slaves they took during warfare into thier community. You can compare it the way the African tribes took slaves. Typically, those slaves became loved ones and married into the families. So although slaves may have been taken during warfare, the entire slavery system was much different than the slavery system in place in America via the trade from Africa etc.While this may be true for some tribes, according to the following account Cherokee treatment of slaves wasn't very different from the Europeans.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v011/v011p1056.html

Passages of note:

The intermarriage of Cherokees and negroes was considered repugnant and traditional laws against it existed from the earliest times. The General Council of 1824 passed a resolution providing a fine of $50.00 against any person who permitted his slaves to marry whites or Indians, and punished the persons attempting such marriage by fifty-nine stripes on the bare back.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE NATIONAL COUNCIL: That from and after the passage of this act, it shall not be lawful for any person or persons whatever, to teach any free negro or negroes, or any slave belonging to any citizen or citizens of the Nation, to read or write.
BE IT FURTHER ENACTED: That any person or persons violating this act, and sufficient proof being made thereof, before any of the Courts in this Nation, such person or persons, upon conviction, shall pay a fine for such offense in a sum not less than one nor more than five hundred dollars, at the discretion of the court, the same to be applied to National purposes

"BE IT FURTHER ENACTED: That should any free negro or negroes be found guilty of aiding, abetting, or decoying any slave or slaves, to leave his or their owner or employer, such free negro or negroes, shall receive for each and every offense, one hundred lashes on the bare back, and be immediately removed from this Nation."
So many drastic laws had been passed that some irresponsible youths thought that there would be no punishment for killing a slave. The Council took the matter under consideration and passed a special act in regard to slaves

"BE IT ENACTED BY THE NATIONAL COUNCIL: That if any person shall wilfully or maliciously, with malice aforethought kill any negro or mulatto slave, on due and legal conviction thereof such person shall be deemed guilty of murder, as if such person so killed had been a free man and shall suffer death by hanging. If the slave so killed shall be the property of another, and not of the offender, his estate on conviction thereof shall be liable to the payment of such slave so killed. PROVIDED, This act shall not be extended to any person killing any slave in the act of resistance to his lawful owner or master; or any slave dying under moderate correction."
--
While the Native Americans were horribly and unfairly persecuted by the European settlers it's a mistake to assume they were blameless in all their ways, simply because they were abused by others.

[Lilabell]

Clove, I could look through my notes, but I know I got most of my info from from the book A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. There are some excellent sources in the book too from private journals which describe how entire communities of Native Americans were wiped out using "biological warfare". The idea was formed when it was noticed that the Native popualtion was susceptable to diseases such as smallpox. I am just saying that when reading the book, such general conclusions are drawn from it.

There was also a journal excerpt from a plantation manager, who noted that "Indians" didnt make as good a slave as the black. He talked about thier apathy, lack of strength, and susceptablilty to disease.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html


Also, the whole "Native American practice of slavey" being wrong comment. I think that times were a little different then, and slavery was a by product of warfare. Those captives were typically assimilated. I am not saying it was right. However, it perhaps is more right than enslaving a people with no hope for them of joining the community at all.

Now, stop being so damned crabby!

[Lilabell]

While this may be true for some tribes, according to the following account Cherokee treatment of slaves wasn't very different from the Europeans.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v011/v011p1056.html

Passages of note:



--
While the Native Americans were horribly and unfairly persecuted by the European settlers it's a mistake to assume they were blameless in all their ways, simply because they were abused by others.



I should have been more clear. I was talking about native americans taking other native americans as slaves. I was not talking about intermarriage between native americans and africans.

Also, I did say in general terms. Not all native american tribes were the same. The Cherokee tribe is going to be much different that say the Penobscot tribe.

[Stanley Burrell]

It's pretty obvious the Natives wanted the White Man to deliberately inhabit what is now America. All that European sophistication must've been a nice break from that tribal warfare that was obviously threatening to decimate their existence before settlers arrived.

.

[Clove]

There was also a journal excerpt from a plantation manager, who noted that "Indians" didnt make as good a slave as the black. He talked about thier apathy, lack of strength, and susceptablilty to disease.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.htmlThe sources I've read are more consistent with DeV's suggestions of why Native Americans weren't as sought after as Africans. Native Americans were not well suited to fixed agriculture, were not docile and could escape more easily into the wild.

I should have been more clear. I was talking about native americans taking other native americans as slaves. I was not talking about intermarriage between native americans and africans.

Also, I did say in general terms. Not all native american tribes were the same. The Cherokee tribe is going to be much different that say the Penobscot tribe.Forgive my confusion, we've been talking about the practice of owning African slaves in this thread. And I'm not cranky, I'm keeping you honest and helping paint an accurate picture.

[CrystalTears]

Daniel is an unmarried twenty-eight year old oilfield worker with two kids ages 2 and 4, and a girlfriend who is twenty-one (yikes). Since he never graduated from highschool, he is employed as a rig hand for a small oil recovery company and makes only thirteen dollars an hour.
You continue to assume that his person is going to attend work, when Daniel has been discussing disability paid and you are not able to work due to the accident. And I seriously doubt a rig hand is going to be allowed to work with a broken leg in a cast for two months. Therefore all this money you're assuming is a pie in the sky dream. You're also assuming that $1700 a month will cover expenses for a family of four. Where do you live?

[Lilabell]

Next time I post, I shall have oodles of sources. Today, I am just not in the mood to look it all up. I am lazy today. I just felt like blabbing my two cents. I am amazed at my impudence.

[Clove]

Next time I post, I shall have oodles of sources. Today, I am just not in the mood to look it all up. I am lazy today. I just felt like blabbing my two cents. I am amazed at my impudence.Perhaps you ought to be whipped. The political folder is hardcore.

[Lilabell]

Perhaps you ought to be whipped. The political folder is hardcore.

What sort of whip?:)

[Clove]

You're also assuming that $1700 a month will cover expenses for a family of four. Where do you live?Trailer park, maybe?

[Parkbandit]

You continue to assume that his person is going to attend work, when Daniel has been discussing disability paid and you are not able to work due to the accident. And I seriously doubt a rig hand is going to be allowed to work with a broken leg in a cast for two months. Therefore all this money you're assuming is a pie in the sky dream. You're also assuming that $1700 a month will cover expenses for a family of four. Where do you live?

I don't see where he was assuming that Daniel was going back to work. He posted:


Being out of work for such a period, state disability kicks in after one week and pays 55% of his income. Since he purchased the additional insurance, Daniel is paid an additional 30% that stacks with state disability.Tthe leg break and subsequent xrays/crutches there is a one time pay out of eleven hundred dollars.

[Seran]

You continue to assume that his person is going to attend work, when Daniel has been discussing disability paid and you are not able to work due to the accident. And I seriously doubt a rig hand is going to be allowed to work with a broken leg in a cast for two months. Therefore all this money you're assuming is a pie in the sky dream. You're also assuming that $1700 a month will cover expenses for a family of four. Where do you live?

I believe where my post said "Being a rustabout, he has only minimal health insurance, and no vacation/sick time to offset eight weeks of time missed at work." was pretty clear I was acknowledging benefits paid for zero work in the eight months. But I can understand where numbers and letters combined would make it hard to realize that.


You're also assuming that $1700 a month will cover expenses for a family of four.

Where I live is fairly unimportant, but a few here could tell you. Needless to say 1700 a month would in pay for the rent and utilities in a great number of places if you observe a budget and live within your means.

[Daniel]

Daniel is an unmarried twenty-eight year old oilfield worker with two kids ages 2 and 4, and a girlfriend who is twenty-one (yikes). Since he never graduated from highschool, he is employed as a rig hand for a small oil recovery company and makes only thirteen dollars an hour.

One weekend, Daniel in a drunken stupor falls down a flight of stairs and upon being checked in at the local County hospital, learns his leg was broken in two places and will need a cast. Being a rustabout, he has only minimal health insurance, and no vacation/sick time to offset eight weeks of time missed at work. Luckily enough, he was sober and purchased a disability policy, with an accident rider totalling fourteen dollars a month.

Normally during this period, Daniel will worked three hundred and twenty hours, at a miserable twelve dollars an hour.

320 * 12 = 3,840.

Subtracting six percent federal income tax due to his dependents, six and one half percent social security deduction, his take home is 3,379. Presuming his not a total moron, this is just enough to pay the bills, feed/cloth his children.

Being out of work for such a period, state disability kicks in after one week and pays 55% of his income. Since he purchased the additional insurance, Daniel is paid an additional 30% that stacks with state disability.Tthe leg break and subsequent xrays/crutches there is a one time pay out of eleven hundred dollars.

280 * 10.2 = 2,856 + 1,100 = 3,956

Since it is state disability, it is non-taxable, but the payout will be subject to the same 12.5 taxable rate when he files his taxes. His total pay will be 3,818.50 for the period.

The bill for the hospital of six hundred dollars will be paid over a twelve month period on a repayment plan the nice little county hospital offers for low wage earners.

----------

Daniel's going to have to go without his malt liquer for a while, but luckily enough it will only be his immediate family who has to suffer his withdrawls.


Talk about a worthless analysis. Just as a starter:

1. A one time payment should not be included in recurrent income. The person is lookg at about a $1000 drop off in monthly earnings. I'm glad you think living with only 2\3rd of your income means big bucks.

2. You analysis does not include costs associated with being hurt.

3. Also, Medical insurance rarely pays 100% of medical expenses. Let alone 200.

4. You assume that the oil rig worker will have his job upon recovering.

5. You assume that being immobile will not introduce any additional stress onto his budget or life style.

6. I don't drink malt liquor anymore and when I did, it definitely didn't constitute 1\3rd of my income.

[Parkbandit]

Talk about a worthless analysis.


Talk about a worthless retort.

[Daniel]

Talk about a worthless retort.

I can only dream of being on your level.

[Parkbandit]

I can only dream of being on your level.


I'm lik 100% positive your goal is set far too high.

[Daniel]

I agree. Your ability to add absolutely nothing to a discussion despite a ridiculous amount of posts is uncanny. I'd be a fool to think that I could match that.

However, I can still dream.

[Parkbandit]

I agree. Your ability to add absolutely nothing to a discussion despite a ridiculous amount of posts is uncanny. I'd be a fool to think that I could match that.

However, I can still dream.

I don't need to change my name every couple of years.. to try and hide something.. Ranger1.

And I'm lik 100% positive, you've already proven that you are a fool.

But let's get back on topic.. shall we? Let's revisit how you and your 'pals' aren't impressed with Condi Rice. I thought that was hilarious.

[Daniel]

ROFL. Uh..okay? What was I trying to hide with my name again?

Another Stellar contribution.

[CrystalTears]

I believe where my post said "Being a rustabout, he has only minimal health insurance, and no vacation/sick time to offset eight weeks of time missed at work." was pretty clear I was acknowledging benefits paid for zero work in the eight months. But I can understand where numbers and letters combined would make it hard to realize that.
But you were calculating as though he'd be paid full time. The first week he wouldn't bring home any pay since he didn't have any personal time to use. And I don't know who taught you math, but 55% of 3379 is not 2856, more like less than 1900.

I find it amazing that you're calculating that he'll bring home basically the same on disability than his own take home pay. May as well get hurt and stay home, huh?

[Parkbandit]

ROFL. Uh..okay? What was I trying to hide with my name again?

Another Stellar contribution.

Stop it Daniel.. I'm not willing to award you with the Hypocrite of the Day Award quite yet... although I WILL say you are the clear leader for the Hypocrite of the Year Award currently.

While I love the back and forth sniping... it's like playing dodgeball against big fat kids.. you can't help but hit them.. let's once again get back on topic... shall we?

[Daniel]

Stop it Daniel.. I'm not willing to award you with the Hypocrite of the Day Award quite yet... although I WILL say you are the clear leader for the Hypocrite of the Year Award currently.

While I love the back and forth sniping... it's like playing dodgeball against big fat kids.. you can't help but hit them.. let's once again get back on topic... shall we?

In other words...

You made an off the wall comment with no substance or baring on reality.

I'd act surprised, but seriously...that's about par for course with you.

[Daniel]

But you were calculating as though he'd be paid full time. The first week he wouldn't bring home any pay since he didn't have any personal time to use. And I don't know who taught you math, but 55% of 3379 is not 2856, more like less than 1900.

I find it amazing that you're calculating that he'll bring home basically the same on disability than his own take home pay. May as well get hurt and stay home, huh?

He was including a random 30% top up.

His numbers still don't compute, when you consider that he includes a $1,100 one time payment into his weekly income.

[CrystalTears]

Ah, I missed the 30%. My bad. His numbers still don't seem right though.

I will say, though, that if he has minimal health insurance, his disability insurance policy can't be that great that he's going to end up getting 85% of his income.

[Parkbandit]

In other words...

You made an off the wall comment with no substance or baring on reality.

I'd act surprised, but seriously...that's about par for course with you.

OK! YOU WIN THE AWARD! Sheesh.. other well known hypocrites can't even compete with posts like this.

OK YOU WON! NOW How about you join everyone else in the topic?


Let's get back to Rice.. how she must have been one of the lucky blacks that actually graduated highschool.. yet you aren't impressed?

[TheEschaton]

Wait, so you don't think the disability policy is gonna reject his claim because he was drunk at the time? Or that the medical insurance payout isn't going to claim that his own negligence caused his broken leg and not pay out?

-TheE-

[Ambrosia]

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate black people at all. But being white and having an opinion about minorities automatically makes you racist so it's lose-lose anyway.


So my family isn't the only one that believes that.

Complain about schools, complain about job opportunites... etc. You can't force a person to learn, and if someone really wants to learn they will find a way regardless of their situation.

As for college, sometimes I wish I was born a minority:
http://www.blackexcel.org/200-Scholarships.html

That took about 2 seconds to find and I'm sure there are thousands more if I really felt like looking.

[Daniel]

OK! YOU WIN THE AWARD! Sheesh.. other well known hypocrites can't even compete with posts like this.

OK YOU WON! NOW How about you join everyone else in the topic?


Let's get back to Rice.. how she must have been one of the lucky blacks that actually graduated highschool.. yet you aren't impressed?

Lol @ you actually wanting to be on topic.

I was specifically talking about her service as Secretary of State, seeing as how I work in the State Dept.

I tried and I tried to help you make that connection. Alas, logic is not one of your strong suits.

[Daniel]

if someone really wants to learn they will find a way regardless of their situation.


I think the point is that someone shouldn't have to go to extraordinary lengths to get an education.

[Ambrosia]

I think the point is that someone shouldn't have to go to extraordinary lengths to get an education.

Going to a library and picking up a book is extraordinary?

[Stanley Burrell]

Going to a library and picking up a book is extraordinary?

For some people.

[Daniel]

Going to a library and picking up a book is extraordinary?


For some people.

^^

[Ambrosia]

That is due to laziness, not lack of resources. If you're lazy, you can't blame the teachers, government, founding fathers or your ancestors for your problem....

[Keller]

sometimes I wish I was born a minority




Racism everywhere. Who's the maddest people? White people. Not y'all. Y'all all right. You paid money to see me, we cool. The feud is over. No, you watch the TV, watch Minutes.
You see white people pissed off, man. Man, the white man thinks he's losing the country. You watch the news: ''We're losing everything. We're fucking losing. Affirmative action, and illegal aliens... and we're fucking losing the country." Losing? Shut the fuck up.
White people ain't losing shit. If y'all losing, who's winning? lt ain't us. lt ain't us. Have you driven around this motherfucker? It ain't us. Shit, there ain't a white man in this room
that would change places with me. None of you would change places with me. And I'm rich! That's how good it is to be white. There's a white, one-legged busboy in here right now... that won't change places with my black ass. He's going, "No, man, I don't wanna switch. I wanna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me."

[Daniel]

That is due to laziness, not lack of resources. If you're lazy, you can't blame the teachers, government, founding fathers or your ancestors for your problem....


Not really, but okay. Think what you want.

[Parkbandit]

Lol @ you actually wanting to be on topic.

I was specifically talking about her service as Secretary of State, seeing as how I work in the State Dept.

I tried and I tried to help you make that connection. Alas, logic is not one of your strong suits.

Like I told you before.. I have zero idea.. nor do I care, where you are employed. I'm just thankful you are employed and not a strain on the taxpayer.

With all of your constant "excusism" you puke here.. I'm pleasantly surprised.

[Parkbandit]

Not really, but okay. Think what you want.

What effort does it take to go to the library? It's FREE to all people.

[Stanley Burrell]

What effort does it take to go to the library? It's FREE to all people.

Think this many feet outside the box:

0.

[Keller]

Like I told you before.. I have zero idea.. nor do I care, where you are employed. I'm just thankful you are employed and not a strain on the taxpayer.

With all of your constant "excusism" you puke here.. I'm pleasantly surprised.

Way to avoid even commenting on the one "on-topic" post you've made in this thread.

He said people he's worked with aren't impressed with her. You got a hard-on for Daniel and harrassed him for like 5 pages about how he said he didn't care for her (which he didn't say). He constantly told you that maybe you should use your wee-little brain and think about what he possibly meant. You spouted off each time.

And now, after he's had to sit you down like you're a fucking 4 year old child and explain it to you -- you come off with some "I'm just glad you have a job and aren't like the rest of the negroes I see when I'm working in subsidized housing projects."

Can you tell us that story about the Cadillac with the rims again? That was my favorite.

[Daniel]

Way to avoid even commenting on the one "on-topic" post you've made in this thread.

He said people he's worked with aren't impressed with her. You got a hard-on for Daniel and harrassed him for like 5 pages about how he said he didn't care for her (which he didn't say). He constantly told you that maybe you should use your wee-little brain and think about what he possibly meant. You spouted off each time.

And now, after he's had to sit you down like you're a fucking 4 year old child and explain it to you -- you come off with some "I'm just glad you have a job and aren't like the rest of the negroes I see when I'm working in subsidized housing projects."

Can you tell us that story about the Cadillac with the rims again? That was my favorite.


Mine too. I, for one, am really glad that we have Parkbandit here to really discuss the problems of race facing America today.

[Parkbandit]

Mine too. I, for one, am really glad that we have Parkbandit here to really discuss the problems of race facing America today.

I, for one, am really glad we have Daniel here to not discuss the problems of race facing American today.. and instead offering the same old tired excuses.

[Daniel]

Because Black people are just Lazy is a new and exciting excuse?

Riiight.

[BigWorm]

Because Black people are just Lazy is a new and exciting excuse?

Riiight.

Don't forget stupid. They're stupid for not moving out of their ghettos, duh.

[TheEschaton]

Have you been to a library in the ghetto, Ambrosia? I haven't been in one that didn't look like a fallout shelter.

[Clove]

Have you been to a library in the ghetto, Ambrosia? I haven't been in one that didn't look like a fallout shelter.

Would that have stopped you, E?

[TheEschaton]

Nope, but by "look like a fallout shelter", I meant in reference to the shape of the books in said library as well.

[Parkbandit]

Because Black people are just Lazy is a new and exciting excuse?

Riiight.

Because the white man controls the country and is keeping the black man down is a new and exciting excuse?

Riiiiight.

[Keller]

Because the white man controls the country and is keeping the black man down is a new and exciting excuse?

Riiiiight.

That's actually pretty new.


Since you're the only person whose mentioned it.

Do you even read what anyone posts? Or just have knee-jerk reactions? (That's rhetorical, I know the answer).

[Methais]

I was watching this black stand up comedian named Wanda Sykes yesterday, and she brought up an interesting point:

"If Obama gets elected, black people are gonna have to come up with another excuse."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wunU-oBgtes

Starts at 2:30.

[Clove]

I was watching this black stand up comedian named Wanda Sykes yesterday, and she brought up an interesting point:

"If Obama gets elected, black people are gonna have to come up with another excuse."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wunU-oBgtes

Starts at 2:30.I heart Wanda. She's hillarious.

[Parkbandit]

'You can't blame the man, when you are the man"

:rofl:

[Seran]

His numbers still don't compute, when you consider that he includes a $1,100 one time payment into his weekly income.


Believe it or not, it's the first equation that's wrong and not the second one and I will explain first the math, then the 1,100.

First off, (320 * 12) * .875 = 3,360 for the eight week period of his convelescence. (Yes, I presume he's full time because it's my hypothesis so get off my jock.)

Secondly, since 55% of his income would be state disability, and the aditional 30% comes from the disability insurance, he makes 85% of his twelve dollar an hour income for seven weeks of pay. (Disability starts on day eight, and is not retroactive)

So, (12 * .85) * 280 or 2,856 dollars which is TAX EXEMPT.

The 1,100 dollars is the payment from the accididental injury insurance Daniel purchased as a direct result of his injury, cast, crutches and hospitalization. The 1,100 dollars is taxable income.
So, 2,856 + (1,100 * .875) = 3,818.50.

Yes, this is more than he would make in the same time period if one considers the one time per accident payment. However, the break even point even with the accident payout would be an approximately one week additional week (38.2 hours if one takes the difference multiplied by his regular pay (3,818.50 - 3,360) * 38 = 38.2.


I find it amazing that you're calculating that he'll bring home basically the same on disability than his own take home pay. May as well get hurt and stay home, huh?

Yes, this is more than he would make in the same time period if one considers the one time per accident payment. However, the break even point even with the accident payout would be an approximately one week additional week (38.2 hours if one takes the difference multiplied by his regular pay (3,818.50 - 3,360) * 38 = 38.2.

The reason why this is a multi billion dollar industry is people don't often get hurt outside of their jobs. For those that do, or have children who become hurt fairly often it's a great additional insurance to cover medical bills.

[Warriorbird]

I can't help but think that some of the posters in this thread would have argued for segregation.

[Seran]

1. A one time payment should not be included in recurrent income. The person is lookg at about a $1000 drop off in monthly earnings. I'm glad you think living with only 2\3rd of your income means big bucks.

I clarified that it was a one time per accident payment since I'm sure you were thinking of some scam to pull. Also, making more than 2/3rds of your income while you're forced to remain home isn't a fail safe, but it's there for people who decide to take it. Since it was my hypothesis, back off.


2. You analysis does not include costs associated with being hurt.

3. Also, Medical insurance rarely pays 100% of medical expenses. Let alone 200.


The bill for the hospital of six hundred dollars will be paid over a twelve month period on a repayment plan the nice little county hospital offers for low wage earners.

Thanks.


4. You assume that the oil rig worker will have his job upon recovering.

This is an extremely valid point actually. But since it's not relevant to my little scenario about finances during the eight week injury, it's completely irrelevant and thus simply you grasping at straws for filler.


5. You assume that being immobile will not introduce any additional stress onto his budget or life style.

I don't care if this hypothetical person is stressed, and one thing you don't take into consideration is that after the first couple of weeks on a cast the individual would be mobile enough for the girlfriend to obtain parttime work.

Since a food allowance would already be taken into consideration to cover a 'lunch' for the convelesee, your point is invalid.


6. I don't drink malt liquor anymore and when I did, it definitely didn't constitute 1\3rd of my income.

But I'm sure you still beat your girlfriend.

[Gan]

I can't help but think that some of the posters in this thread would have argued for segregation.

My famlily owned slaves back in the day, I'm still waiting for the government to reimburse me for the bad investment when they were freed.

[Daniel]

Also, making more than 2/3rds of your income while you're forced to remain home isn't a fail safe, but it's there for people who decide to take it. Since it was my hypothesis, back off.

Why would I back off?

You put forth a completely ridiculous argument to prove your silly point that it's easy to work your way out of the ghetto.

It's a bullshit argument in the first place. Don't get mad when you get called out for fluffing it up.

[Seran]

Not mad at all, but if you wanna put out your OWN scenario as you see it with your broad experiences with prejudice and racism, bring it on.

Thanks for giving up, I was tired of schooling you.

[Daniel]

However, the break even point even with the accident payout would be an approximately one week additional week (38.2 hours if one takes the difference multiplied by his regular pay (3,818.50 - 3,360) * 38 = 38.2.



Except it's an 8 week scenario. Unless you imagine that someone is going back to working on an oil rig 1 week after breaking his leg.

You really suck at this. Go back to the drawing board and try again.

[Daniel]

Not mad at all, but if you wanna put out your OWN scenario as you see it with your broad experiences with prejudice and racism, bring it on.

Thanks for giving up, I was tired of schooling you.

Sorry. I have better things to do. I'll take reality over your shoddily made up scenario.

Don't forget that the burden of proof lies on you. You are the one asserting that black people don't attain as much because they are lazy and ignorant.

[Warriorbird]

So did mine, Gan. I'm just not blaming the black people for having some difficulty coping with it afterwards. I'm not blaming them for all the problems white people or even Eastern European immigrants have to deal with today. That's our stuff to deal with. Pawning it off on somebody else shows weakness. Attacking somebody else when they say they have it tough is not very respectable. It makes you seem like a smaller person. Doing so makes people guilty of precisely what they accuse every black person who complains of.

[Gan]

I even used italics.

:(

[Daniel]

It's a shame that other people have been completely serious in this thread.

[Gan]

Its my turn NOT to be serious... for once.

You should respect that, since you are not a stranger to this practice. ;)

[Daniel]

I wasn't knocking you! (This time)

[Gan]

:lol:

[Warriorbird]

I was just using your clearly non serious post as an excuse for a tangent, Gan, mainly directed at other folks.

There have been and were a lot of Republicans who've done great things for civil rights just like there were/are racist Democrats (The Jena 6 prosecutor for example)(though Strom Thurmond went Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican based on segregation... and had a black bastard kid for the ultimate irony). Lincoln and Ike are high on that list. I find it kind of sad that some members of the party of "level playing fields" can't seem to get a clue about what that actually entails at times.

[Clove]

...(though Strom Thurmond went Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican based on segregation... and had a black bastard kid for the ultimate irony)...Yeah but he didn't live with him.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

argument to prove your silly point that it's easy to work your way out of the ghetto.


Just on this one piece. We should make it so that you don't need to move out of the ghetto to get an education, fair paying legitimate job, nice house, etc. Certainly not easy, certainly not cheap. How we do it I think would be akin to "rebuilding Iraq".

I have a very low opinion of the current urban renewal campaigns, but I agree with Daniel that you shouldn't have to move to get the same things all American's are entitled too.

[Clove]

I have a very low opinion of the current urban renewal campaigns, but I agree with Daniel that you shouldn't have to move to get the same things all American's are entitled too.Well I certainly wouldn't want to live in the ghetto if I had an education and a good job.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Well I certainly wouldn't want to live in the ghetto if I had an education and a good job.

My point was more along the lines we should redefine ghettos, so that they aren't just a place to get out of.

[Warriorbird]

http://bp0.blogger.com/_SXh9eUh5Osw/RwqDSZpb9tI/AAAAAAAABPc/VYLXjPMTbIQ/s200/p1230772.jpg