Man (transgendered) pregnant.

[zhelas]

OI ... Oregon is definately a strange state... Being able to wander around naked on your property infront of your neighbor's kids or school bus to this...


Oregon Man Says He's Pregnant
Transgendered Man Writes In 'The Advocate'
http://www.drudgereport.com/pman.jpg

Video http://www.kptv.com/video/15702146/index.html

Thomas Beatie, who used to be a woman, appeared in the most recent issue of The Advocate, a magazine for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender readers, Portland, Ore., television station KPTV reported.

Beatie wrote the article, which includes a picture of him while he was 22 weeks pregnant. According to the story, he went through a sex change, but decided only to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy.

Beatie was able to keep the reproductive organs he was born with. The article said he stopped getting the injections and was able to get pregnant.

Beatie, who lives in Bend, wrote he was once pregnant with triplets, but the pregnancy was life-threatening and he lost the fetuses. Now, Beatie said he and his wife, Nancy, are expecting a little girl in July.

In the article, Beatie described some of the challenges he and his wife have faced -- they said doctors won't treat them. The couple met 10 years ago and Nancy is not able to have children.

He wrote in The Advocate that their situation "sparks legal, political and social unknowns."

The couple were out of town Monday and unable to speak with the station.
http://www.kptv.com/health/15702121/detail.html

[Gan]

An Oregon man is five months pregnant, according to a national magazine.

Thomas Beatie, who used to be a woman, appeared in the most recent issue of The Advocate, a magazine for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender readers, Portland, Ore., television station KPTV reported.

Beatie wrote the article, which includes a picture of him while he was 22 weeks pregnant. According to the story, he went through a sex change, but decided only to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy. Beatie was able to keep the reproductive organs he was born with. The article said he stopped getting the injections and was able to get pregnant.

Beatie, who lives in Bend, wrote he was once pregnant with triplets, but the pregnancy was life-threatening and he lost the fetuses. Now, Beatie said he and his wife, Nancy, are expecting a little girl in July.

In the article, Beatie described some of the challenges he and his wife have faced -- they said doctors won't treat them. The couple met 10 years ago and Nancy is not able to have children.

He wrote in The Advocate that their situation "sparks legal, political and social unknowns."

The couple were out of town Monday and unable to speak with the station.

http://www.kptv.com/health/15702121/detail.html
_______________________________________________

wow

So he's a woman who wanted to be almost a man? I mean seriously, make up your mind.

:wtf:

[Xaerve]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=31123

The picture is awesome.

[NocturnalRob]

yeah, i saw that. wtf?

Junior FTW

http://freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/seven/uploaded_images/junior-799212.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

So he's a woman who wanted to be almost a man? I mean seriously, make up your mind.I think he was biologically a woman who wanted to be understood as a man, as that's how he understood himself. You don't need a penis to be understood as a man.

I'm really surprised that you haven't stated a problem with the discrimination he's facing, though. Shouldn't you be upset that doctors are pushing their morality on their patients?

[Gan]

You don't need a penis to be understood as a man.
You speak from experience on that issue?



I'm really surprised that you haven't stated a problem with the discrimination he's facing, though. Shouldn't you be upset that doctors are pushing their morality on their patients?

I'm still getting over how fucked up this person is.

And I dont think the doctors are pushing their morality as much as they are simply limiting their liability. ;)

[Arkans]

This guy is an abomination in God's eyes and should be thrown into the Lake of Fire with all the other wicked ones.

Either that or "Heh, interesting read!"

- Arkans

[Jorddyn]

I wonder where he buys maternity clothes...

[Latrinsorm]

You speak from experience on that issue?It's pretty much impossible for you to not have met at least one apparent male without male genitalia (and the same for females), even (especially?) in Texas.
I'm still getting over how fucked up this person is.That's a pretty disappointing attitude to take.
And I dont think the doctors are pushing their morality as much as they are simply limiting their liability. ;)What liability? The guy's got the same reproductive organs as any other fertile biological woman.

[RichardCranium]

That kid is gonna catch hell for having been birthed by it's father.

[CrystalTears]

I think he was biologically a woman who wanted to be understood as a man, as that's how he understood himself. You don't need a penis to be understood as a man.
You'll have to excuse me when I say WHAT THE FUCK! What's the fucking point of going through the physical and emotional damage of getting surgery, insisting that you're meant to be a MAN and not go through with the entire procedure?!

Vishra, is that you?

It's insulting to me that people who can't decide on a gender feel it's hunky-dory to pick and choose which parts of the gender they wish to live. But hey, if he wants to have the kid, go forth and prosper. However I don't even want to know how they're going to approach this with their kid when they're discussing the birds and the bees. That child is going to be all colors confused.

[Latrinsorm]

You'll have to excuse me when I say WHAT THE FUCK! What's the fucking point of going through the physical and emotional damage of getting surgery, insisting that you're meant to be a MAN and not go through with the entire procedure?!For one thing because it's a lot easier to take something (breasts) away than install new (working, convincing) plumbing. For another, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and guess his insurance probably didn't cover this operation, and maybe he didn't feel the benefits balanced out all the costs (financial, physical, emotional).

Or maybe he was so terrified of the societal reaction he'd receive he couldn't go all the way through with it.

Or maybe he wanted to take it in stages because surgically changing genders is a pretty nerve-wracking thing to do.
It's insulting to me that people who can't decide on a gender feel it's hunky-dory to pick and choose which parts of the gender they wish to live.I would guess he finds it insulting when people look at his situation and respond "what's the fucking point", "fucked up", or "make up your mind", so you're probably even. :)

[Latrinsorm]

Vishra, is that you?Cute.

Speaking of, though, I can't wait for the words Jesse comes up with to describe your reaction (as a member of multiple minorities) to a more ostracized minority. Heteronormative was fun but it's getting a little worn out.

[Miss Ismurii]

I can't find the words on how I feel about this whole situation. I'll just say wow.
=\

[Celephais]

Eh... I can understand it sort of (as much as I don't understand transgender in the first place). Getting chest reconstruction is along the same lines as getting any other plastic surgery, messing up your primary toy is a major concern. I was under the impression that they frequently just don't work anymore, sensation etc...

I imagine "he" wanted to still be able to scissor with his wife.

[Sean]

If only you could use the ACT command in real life...

[Stanley Burrell]

He's polysexual, prolly.

I'm glad he kept the cock'n'balls, because now, finally, woman can shut their sets of lips the fuck up about childbirth only being their plight.

Savants in '06.

[CrystalTears]

I'm glad he kept the cock'n'balls, because now, finally, woman can shut their sets of lips the fuck up about childbirth only being their plight.

It IS only their plight, fucktard. A man still hasn't had a baby yet.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm having your baby right now.

[Keller]

It IS only their plight, fucktard. A man still hasn't had a baby yet.

When I was in high school I pushed a kidney stone out my urethra. It felt like I was giving birth to a 400 lb man.

[Stanley Burrell]

...What?

I don't even have to make any fucking sense. I love you, though. Especially the Animatrix avatar: Good shit :thumbup:

[DeV]

You'll have to excuse me when I say WHAT THE FUCK! What's the fucking point of going through the physical and emotional damage of getting surgery, insisting that you're meant to be a MAN and not go through with the entire procedure?!
It's pretty expensive from what I've heard.

[Stanley Burrell]

Not you Keller, I only love you Platonically. Damn one-liners besting me of my lack of quote usage.

[Stanley Burrell]

God damn it. You guys, girls, and in-betweens are fast.

[zhelas]

You'll have to excuse me when I say WHAT THE FUCK! What's the fucking point of going through the physical and emotional damage of getting surgery, insisting that you're meant to be a MAN and not go through with the entire procedure?!

His wife probably likes to eat pussy versus a reconstructed penis

[CrystalTears]

And see that's why I have a difficult time grasping and understanding transgender people. Physically a woman, but feels she should be a man, but wants to remain some parts as a woman, and live with a woman, and doesn't want to be a lesbian. I'm sorry, I don't get it. :(

[Latrinsorm]

Think of it this way.

Every morning when you wake up, you're overcome with the feeling that something's wrong. You're not sure what, but you just know something's wrong. You try to shake it off and go get ready. As you're brushing your teeth, you suddenly see yourself in the mirror and you want to throw up - in a way that shouldn't even be possible, someone has turned you into a man, all the way down to your leg hair. Then you wake up all the way... and realize that you've always been a man.

Maybe you go to church and hear a "priest" screaming about how people like you are an abomination, then he smiles at you and shakes your hand on your way out at the end of the service.

Maybe you go on the subway and hear people talking shit to a crossdresser, then turn to you and say "right?".

Maybe you log on the PC and read about a person like you, only everyone on the board says he's a mutant, a freak, some kind of bizarre aberration more fit for a zoo than the human fraternity.

Then maybe you find out that if you can come up with tens of thousands of dollars, a stranger will carve out parts of your body and partially fix God's mistake. As an unavoidable consequence of this, everyone you've ever known, cared about, and loved will know pretty much immediately what you've been all along...

...and you don't have the slightest idea how they'll respond.

.

I'm confident you can understand.

[CrystalTears]

Eh, I've already said too much anyway. I don't understand transgenders and I'll leave it at that. I also don't understand beastiality but that doesn't mean that I want it explained to me either.

(Disclaimer: I'm not comparing the two. I just happened to mention something else that I don't understand the behavior of.)

[Some Rogue]

....partially fix God's mistake..

Who the fuck are you and what did you do with the real Latrinsorm?

[zhelas]

And see that's why I have a difficult time grasping and understanding transgender people. Physically a woman, but feels she should be a man, but wants to remain some parts as a woman, and live with a woman, and doesn't want to be a lesbian. I'm sorry, I don't get it. :(

Agreed. She errr He ... wants to be a man and still have a monthly cycle.

[Clove]

So wait, she is now a "he" because she got a mastectomy and takes testosterone?

[Clove]

So wait, she is now a "he" because she got a mastectomy and takes testosterone?

[Nieninque]

Who the fuck are you and what did you do with the real Latrinsorm?

Someone has put something in the water. Have you seen PB's posts lately? And now Latrin? WTF?

[Clove]

Think of it this way.

Every morning when you wake up, you're overcome with the feeling that something's wrong. You're not sure what, but you just know something's wrong. You try to shake it off and go get ready. As you're brushing your teeth, you suddenly see yourself in the mirror and you want to throw upI think they call that an "Anxiety Disorder" and in many cases a good prescription combined with a good therapist can set you straight.

Then maybe you find out that if you can come up with tens of thousands of dollars, a stranger will carve out parts of your body and partially fix God's mistake.Stanley... is that you?!

[zhelas]

So wait, she is now a "he" because she got a mastectomy and takes testosterone?

Yep.

http://www.drudgereport.com/pman.jpg

I am sure the hormones interfere with the monthly cycle but he/she stopped taking them to have a baby.

[Clove]

Yep.

http://www.drudgereport.com/pman.jpg

I am sure the hormones interfere with the monthly cycle but he/she stopped taking them to have a baby.

So then... when shi stopped taking the hormones was shi a she again? What if she later got reconstructive implants?

[TheEschaton]

he and she are gender identities, male and female are sexes. Just because you're a female in terms of your sex doesn't mean you don't identify as a he. Furthermore, having an opposite gender identity doesn't necessitate you feeling compelled to have a physical sex change. Why this current person didn't go all the way through with a sex change I think has been adequately explained so far.

I know many transgendered people, who were, for example, physically female but identified as a he. And vice versa. I had a good friend Kelly, who would be so hurt by you calling her a man, or by the name that her parents gave her (Charles), even though she has the physical body of a man,

-TheE-

[Clove]

he and she are pronouns for the male and female sexes (respectively).

Fixed it for you.

[Some Rogue]

Someone has put something in the water. Have you seen PB's posts lately? And now Latrin? WTF?

PB = Alzheimer's

[Stanley Burrell]

Stanley... is that you?!

No.



Yes....
















No.
































Yes.

Is what me?

[TheEschaton]

You've never studied how there is a difference between gender identity and sex? Because they're out there.

-TheE-

[Stanley Burrell]

So wait, she is now a "he" because she got a mastectomy and takes testosterone?

Aside from the whole XY chromosome thing, yes.

So, basically, no.

If it claimed polysexuality/transgender semantics (I haven't read shit about this because my eyes are bleeding) then I'd think that would be a totally O.K.'er medium.

[Clove]

You've never studied how there is a difference between gender identity and sex? Because they're out there.

-TheE-

You mean an individual's perception might not match their reality? I'm aware of that condition.

[zhelas]

According to the video, http://www.kptv.com/video/15702146/index.html his wife is not able to have children SO he stopped the hormone injections so he could become pregnant.

[Nieninque]

ROFL...the thing that gets me about gender identity is:

Who fucking cares whether someone thinks they are a man or a woman?

It's really not news.

[Methais]

For one thing because it's a lot easier to take something (breasts) away than install new (working, convincing) plumbing. For another, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and guess his insurance probably didn't cover this operation, and maybe he didn't feel the benefits balanced out all the costs (financial, physical, emotional).

Or maybe he was so terrified of the societal reaction he'd receive he couldn't go all the way through with it.

Or maybe he wanted to take it in stages because surgically changing genders is a pretty nerve-wracking thing to do.I would guess he finds it insulting when people look at his situation and respond "what's the fucking point", "fucked up", or "make up your mind", so you're probably even. :)

Or maybe he's just a fucking idiot.

Who knocked him up anyway?


Think of it this way.

Every morning when you wake up, you're overcome with the feeling that something's wrong. You're not sure what, but you just know something's wrong. You try to shake it off and go get ready. As you're brushing your teeth, you suddenly see yourself in the mirror and you want to throw up - in a way that shouldn't even be possible, someone has turned you into a man, all the way down to your leg hair. Then you wake up all the way... and realize that you've always been a man.

Maybe you go to church and hear a "priest" screaming about how people like you are an abomination, then he smiles at you and shakes your hand on your way out at the end of the service.

Maybe you go on the subway and hear people talking shit to a crossdresser, then turn to you and say "right?".

Maybe you log on the PC and read about a person like you, only everyone on the board says he's a mutant, a freak, some kind of bizarre aberration more fit for a zoo than the human fraternity.

Then maybe you find out that if you can come up with tens of thousands of dollars, a stranger will carve out parts of your body and partially fix God's mistake. As an unavoidable consequence of this, everyone you've ever known, cared about, and loved will know pretty much immediately what you've been all along...

...and you don't have the slightest idea how they'll respond.

While I hope it's not the case, you really sound like you have first hand experience with all this. Did you used to be Lorettasorm?

[Gan]

It's pretty expensive from what I've heard.

OH SURE, BLAME IT ON OUR CURRENT HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!!!!

[Clove]

Or maybe he's just a fucking idiot.

Who knocked him up anyway?



While I hope it's not the case, you really sound like you have first hand experience with all this. Did you used to be Lorettasorm?

Winner!!!!

[Celephais]

Eh, I've already said too much anyway. I don't understand transgenders and I'll leave it at that. I also don't understand beastiality but that doesn't mean that I want it explained to me either.

(Disclaimer: I'm not comparing the two. I just happened to mention something else that I don't understand the behavior of.)
I think you could have been without the disclaimer... Latrin's rant could have been about any non-socially acceptable behavior, I'm sure that people who have F'd up sexual urges undergo the same type of feelings as transgender individuals, probably doesn't even apply to just sexual urges, probably the same for any behavior society has deemed inappropriate.

So his rant could just as easily be defending beasiality, pedos, rapists, murderers and furries. I still think all those things are wrong, weither or not they wake up feeling that they should rightfully be able to do them. Was it god's mistake that some guy isn't constantly 13, or a dolphin?

I don't really care if someone changes gender, doesn't really hurt anyone (so long as they're forthwright with their partners), a lot of those other things hurt someone (or thing).

Heh... this all reminds me of that awesome episode of It's always sunny w/ the tranny ... "is that a hate crime? fuck yeah! Lets get him!".

[Clove]

Personally I don't care if you hang a tail on yourself, if you have the dough and can find someone to do it. Just stop trying to convince me this ISN'T abnormal human behavior.

[Stanley Burrell]

Personally I don't care if you hang a tail on yourself, if you have the dough and can find someone to do it. Just stop trying to convince me this ISN'T abnormal human behavior.

You are obviously unaware of how much crazy hedgehog poontang Miles scored when he wasn't busy anally raping Super Sonic.

Please, continue.

[Sylvan Dreams]

So. . .Tommy still has his girl-bits downstairs but upstairs got boyish ones.

Is the marriage between shimself and Nancy considered legal or is it considered a gay union?

Assuming they have sex together, does this mean Nancy is a lesbian? Is she a lesbian in denial since outwardly Thomas is trying to pass as a man (well, except for the whole pregnant part)?

And finally and rather unrelated since he didn't go through it, I know that when they do man-to-woman operations, they turn the penis into itself or something along those lines and make girl parts. When there's a woman-to-man operation, where does the penis come from?

[Sylvan Dreams]

he and she are gender identities, male and female are sexes. Just because you're a female in terms of your sex doesn't mean you don't identify as a he. Furthermore, having an opposite gender identity doesn't necessitate you feeling compelled to have a physical sex change. Why this current person didn't go all the way through with a sex change I think has been adequately explained so far.

I know many transgendered people, who were, for example, physically female but identified as a he. And vice versa. I had a good friend Kelly, who would be so hurt by you calling her a man, or by the name that her parents gave her (Charles), even though she has the physical body of a man,

-TheE-

....but it doesn't change the reality that he is a man.

As an aside, let me get this right. . .Thomas was born a woman, had a gender identity crisis that made his/her mental process identify as a man, so has some operations and takes some hormones to live as a lesbian?

[Nieninque]

Why do you care?

[Stanley Burrell]

Why do you care?

I think (and this might be going out on a limb, here) that she cares... Because, well, she does?

[Sylvan Dreams]

Why do you care?

It's called curiosity. I find things like this interesting, even if I may not understand or agree.

Why do you care why I care?

:)

[Amaron]

Umm who is the dad?

J

[Methais]

Queering doesn't make the world work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGeIWEBDeuE

[Back]

Its going to be an awkward baby shower.

(did I spell awkward correctly? man thats a weird looking word)

[Snapp]

Umm who is the dad?

J

Thats what I wanna know.

[Gan]

Its going to be an awkward baby shower.

(did I spell awkward correctly? man thats a weird looking word)

Its really awkward.

[Latrinsorm]

Who the fuck are you and what did you do with the real Latrinsorm?Maybe this Splinter Post to End All Splinter Posts will convince you!!! :D
So wait, she is now a "he" because she got a mastectomy and takes testosterone?"She" has always been a male in every respect but the biological. This is identical to the way that an adopted child can have as strong an emotional attachment as a biological child even though they aren't "really" related any more than the man in this story is "really" male.
I think they call that an "Anxiety Disorder" and in many cases a good prescription combined with a good therapist can set you straight.An anxiety disorder is overly severe reactions to ordinary stimuli. A person who's anxious all the time because they're in a concentration camp doesn't have an anxiety disorder, they're in a warped and anxiety-producing environment. It would be extremely inappropriate to treat gender identity issues with anti-anxiety or anti-depressant medication.
Just stop trying to convince me this ISN'T abnormal human behavior."Abnormal" is accurate (for everyone, btw, not just transgender people). "Wrong" is not.
Who fucking cares whether someone thinks they are a man or a woman?Apparently his prospective doctors do, as they refuse to treat him. What would you do if you were pregnant and no OB-GYN would treat you?
While I hope it's not the case, you really sound like you have first hand experience with all this. Did you used to be Lorettasorm?I do not have first hand experience with transsexual behavior. I do have first hand experience with being a human, so it's not that hard to understand for me.
So his rant could just as easily be defending beasiality, pedos, rapists, murderers and furries.Not really. Everything you talk about there is a behavior, whereas I was talking about a state of being. Furthermore, murderers (for instance) don't appear any different after they've killed someone. The whole point of changing biology is so the person does appear different, which as I demonstrated carries frightening consequences.
Thomas was born a woman, had a gender identity crisis that made his/her mental process identify as a man, so has some operations and takes some hormones to live as a lesbian?Only women are lesbians, so Thomas is not a lesbian. Thomas is a heterosexual male who happens to retain some female biological components.

As to their marriage: Not only would it be a heterosexual marriage, it wouldn't be anywhere close to the first of this type.

[Stanley Burrell]

An anxiety disorder is overly severe reactions to ordinary stimuli. A person who's anxious all the time because they're in a concentration camp doesn't have an anxiety disorder, they're in a warped and anxiety-producing environment. It would be extremely inappropriate to treat gender identity issues with anti-anxiety or anti-depressant medication."Abnormal" is accurate (for everyone, btw, not just transgender people).

GAD is not triggered and/or stimuli-responsive: It's a somewhat permanent GAF-lowering brand of ill omen. Many of the NOSs (for anxiety disorders) are unfocused on stimuli. It's probably this narrow definition that almost always creates mad medicine karma and over-diagnosing.

Now that medicine is privatized more than ever, The DSM is lumping Axis I and II together because of fucking health-care, and overgeneralizing ten thousand diagnoses that much more so. Labeling someone as a paranoid schizophrenic who has PTSD with paranoid personality disorder is going to happen so often, it's going to make Freud roll over in his sarcophagus.

[Clove]

Maybe this Splinter Post to End All Splinter Posts will convince you!!!

Necromancer? Is that you?!

I didn't realize you were a psychiatrist now Latrin. Neither am I, but my understanding is that the medical community has established that individuals with (this degree) of gender perception issues feel a great deal of anxiety over it, and have no control over their perception. What they don't know is what causes this incongruent perception.

If we don't know the cause then we can't say the stimulus behind their anxiety is unnatural. I think the fact of their sex IS natural and their response to it is unnatural.

[Stanley Burrell]

I didn't realize you were a psychiatrist now Latrin.

You don't need much more than poly sci awareness and a psych minor to get the jist of things. In most cases, the fewer times a therapist can personally relate to a mental illness, the better the outcome as far as objectivity goes. In general, psychologists who are single, without children can make the most adequate conjectures relating to marriage and children, because the separateness really allows the shrink to keep healthy distance and make simpler, better suggestions.

Masters in STOOPID Work can milk the whole "I CAN RELATE!!" thing. Which is why they make less money. Way too much transference in that profession.

That being said, psychology will never be a unified science and is therefor inferior factually to all its precursors of Anderson-localized academic studies.

[Latrinsorm]

If we don't know the cause then we can't say the stimulus behind their anxiety is unnatural. I think the fact of their sex IS natural and their response to it is unnatural.We're talking about a person given a stimulus (you're in the wrong body, somebody switched it on you, etc.) and feeling anxious. The point isn't whether the stimulus is factually the case, the point as far as anxiety disorders would be concerned is whether the derivation of the feeling is reasonable. If you can honestly tell me you could wake up tomorrow as a woman and not be the slightest bit startled, then maybe I'll give some credence to describing the reaction of people like Thomas as a disorder.

Now, putting that aside, you can't talk about "the fact of their sex" without defining what sex is. It's pretty obvious that humans are not always limited by biology, as the example of the adopted child demonstrates. For another way of looking at it, take the case of homosexuality. There's no biological imperative being satisfied, so "factually" a homosexual response is "unnatural", right? One might even say homosexuals are mutants - biological abberations (factually speaking, of course).

Or, we could say that there is a higher reality than the biological - which renders "the fact of their sex" a very foggy notion indeed.

[CrystalTears]

Homosexuals don't denounce their gender/sex though. A lesbian will say she's a female not a male. She's still a female, just with a sexual preference towards other females. I don't find anything "unnatural" about that.

What I find a problem with is someone having basically an identity crisis and the remedy is to just change the anatomy. That is what seems unnatural to me.

[Clove]

...If you can honestly tell me you could wake up tomorrow as a woman and not be the slightest bit startled, then maybe I'll give some credence to describing the reaction of people like Thomas as a disorder...

Yes, I would be. Because I was born a male, I established my identity as a male, and in that circumstance some external force would have transformed me into a female.

I don't think there is any proof that this is what has happened to transgendered. You're speculating.

[Stanley Burrell]

Unless somebody wants to do their thesis on why this is an anxiety disorder and not a sexual disorder, then I'm pretty sure "anxiety" is the stress label that gives this man/woman his or her clinically abnormal status.

It's really important not to get the two confused... Because my abby professor told me as much and I believed her.

[diethx]

I personally don't see anything strange about her lopping off some breasts and taking hormones to look like a man on the outside because she feels like a man on the inside. Keeping the vagina, et al., is a little strange since she's trying so hard to be a man, but hey, who are we to judge when it's just more plastic surgery which is so common in this country? I wouldn't claim to know what's going on inside his/her head, and frankly i'm not bothered by it at all.

I am a little concerned for the child, though. Not for its well-being, but for the fact that not only will it be confused as fuck when it learns that daddy gave birth to it, but imagine all the teasing/abuse it'll endure at school. This isn't the sort of thing that will be kept quiet... i'm sure all the kids will know and will torment the poor child about it. :/

[Stanley Burrell]

I am a little concerned for the child, though.

Seriously though. The intrauterine hemophilia is a worthy cause to express one's self. Don't (in a biologically detrimental manner) fuck that unborn fetus up.

I'm pro-choice, just not pro-VEGF growth factors and IUGR through the fackin' roof to champion a sexual agenda with a newborn Zergling.

[Latrinsorm]

Homosexuals don't denounce their gender/sex though. A lesbian will say she's a female not a male. She's still a female, just with a sexual preference towards other females. I don't find anything "unnatural" about that.You include subjectivity in your definition of unnatural, though, which is fine. I can't tell you what you find unnatural. I can tell you what biology says, which is the only way do declare things about the "fact" of "natural" sex. (And even then it's a bit of a circular declaration.)
I don't think there is any proof that this is what has happened to transgendered. You're speculating.It's an extendible analogy. You suddenly become aware of it one morning - you used to be a man a year ago, and someone changed your body without you noticing. Extended further, you used to be a man 10 years ago, and someone changed your body without you noticing. Extended to completion, you were created a man, but someone changed your body when you couldn't possibly notice.

It's very much like how you suddenly become aware you're healthy after a lengthy period of being sick, or at peace after a lengthy period of mourning, or whatever, only in reverse.

[Clove]

It's an extendible analogy. You suddenly become aware of it one morning - you used to be a man a year ago, and someone changed your body without you noticing. Extended further, you used to be a man 10 years ago, and someone changed your body without you noticing. Extended to completion, you were created a man, but someone changed your body when you couldn't possibly notice.

No, it's not an extendable analogy because in each instance you assume that something external suddenly changed your condition and you are just struggling with your continued perception of the former condition. There is NO proof that this is the case with transgenders. I maintain that their gender is natural and normal, but it is their PERCEPTION that was either never normal/correct or changed abnormally. Of course I have no proof for my opinion either, but I believe it's consistent with Occum's razor. Until someone can get to the bottom of what's going on, we simply disagree on our interpretation of what's happening.

[Latrinsorm]

...no, the "extended to completion" line has the change happening simultaneously with the instant of creation. The being has always been male with a female body, which leads inevitably to conflict, stress, and anxiety even before we throw in social factors. I use sudden external change in the analogy because I think it's easier to understand.
and you are just struggling with your perception of the former condition.This is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying: maleness is NOT a former condition. Your BODY has been changed, not YOU. It's our being trained to identify with body parts that causes the problem - the person sees himself as both and neither and man and woman and and and -

[Clove]

...no, the "extended to completion" line has the change happening simultaneously with the instant of creation. The being has always been male with a female body, which leads inevitably to conflict...Great, once we prove in the existence (and gender identity) of souls, or find some gene for female/male that gets reversed in transgenders I'll be able to subscribe to your interpretation.

[RichardCranium]

There's just one thing wrong with your stance Latrinsorm. God doesn't make mistakes.

[Latrinsorm]

Great, once we prove in the existence (and gender identity) of souls, or find some gene for female/male that gets reversed in transgenders I'll be able to subscribe to your interpretation.Why do you continue to insist on a biological basis?
There's just one thing wrong with your stance Latrinsorm. God doesn't make mistakes.Of course God makes mistakes. The interesting Christian thing is that God is still (in the sense of notwithstanding the previous statement) perfect.

[Clove]

Why do you continue to insist on a biological basis?Why do you insist against one?

[Latrinsorm]

Because in every other area of human reckoning it's irrelevant. The bonds between adopted children and adoptive parents aren't fake. How psychologically intimate a relationship you can have with someone else is at best tangentially related to physical factors, as much as Lysander claims otherwise. Forget about the social aspect even, just look at how much we "mutilate" our "natural" bodies on a daily basis - and we'd be quite peeved if someone tried to stop us!

Biology is useful for a lot of things, but talking about philosophical concepts like love or identity is just not one of them. It's like trying to do architecture with astrophysics, it's just not the right tool for the job.

[Methais]

it's just not the right tool for the job.

Most ironic statement of this thread.

[Clove]

Biology is useful for a lot of things, but talking about philosophical concepts like love or identity is just not one of them. It's like trying to do architecture with astrophysics, it's just not the right tool for the job.You have bizarre method of reasoning. Interpersonal relationships between biologically unrelated individuals has little to do with an individual that harbors a self-perception that doesn't match her reality. And for the record I think someone who thinks they "were meant to be a blonde" when in reality they are brunette to the point that they suffer tremendous anxiety if they aren't allowed to dye their hair are having issues too. I don't think "gee maybe they were just meant to be a fucking blonde". I don't think "gee maybe something changed them to brunette in the womb". I think, "gee this person really has a distorted self-perception".